What the point system lacks

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
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What the point system lacks

Postby Gormal » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:23 pm

I propose that a point slot for "other" be added to the whole point system, reasons follow.


So now that equipment stats are based purely on a set of factors like; rarity, stats, and mob difficulty, why are there constant disagreements on the stats of certain items? Because a rigid point system can never take everything into account correctly.

Example:

1k eyes is a great piece of headgear with great stats, however, when was the last time anyway did it? This used to be done religiously every boot, but now that the new beholder proc is in, people don't want to risk carnage, or its too hard to get a big enough group just to CHECK the item. Where does that factor into it?

Infra eq takes up x points, mistweave has enough to get it, but harp earring does not. There's like what, MAYBE 20 harp earrings in the game? Verarb had like what, 30 mistweaves at one point?

Pirate Isles is like walking from California to New York, imo that should give it some extra point love. A rare that loads at fountain at 50% should have less value then a rare that loads in an out of the way place. Rares that wander should have more points then sentinal mobs.

My point is that there are so many other factors that aren't being taken into account. This point slow would allow a God to say "man that item really IS underpowered even though its maxed for points" and have a good way to fix it.
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Re: What the point system lacks

Postby thanuk » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:34 pm

Gormal wrote:Pirate Isles is like walking from California to New York, imo that should give it some extra point love.


I agree with most of what you said, but this is absurd. Distance from waterdeep should have 0 impact on eq.
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Postby Hyldryn » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:40 pm

Does the point system takes into accout how easy it is to avoid fights? Musp invasion is just a sneak/fold/kill combination.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:40 pm

I didn't mean just from WD, like out of the way rares should be more then rares people walk by every day. Not sure if points are given to global loads or not.
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Re: What the point system lacks

Postby belleshel » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:41 pm

thanuk wrote:
Gormal wrote:Upgrade goats.


I agree with most of what you said, but this is absurd. If anything needs an upgrade, its mullets.


Distances should play no factor. WD isn't the center of the toril universe anyway. I was going to say having to dodge agro baddies should play a small role, but since everyone has a rogue alt, that's not really an issue either.
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Postby belleshel » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:44 pm

Gormal wrote:I didn't mean just from WD, like out of the way rares should be more then rares people walk by every day. Not sure if points are given to global loads or not.


Just start moving/adding rares to far off places, make folks explore the mud more. Giving bonuses to what some folks consider a 'rarer spot' is just too subjective.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:50 pm

i thought the point i was trying to make that the point system isnt subjective enough.
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Postby Corth » Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:06 pm

A lot of hard work went into formulating the point system, and it was very well intentioned. However, even before we saw the results, my opinion was that it would be impossible to objectively quantify zone difficulty. There are just way too many factors. And then, some factors which might weigh heavily in one situation, might not mean much in another. For instance, !teleport increases point values, but on the other hand, who cares if its !teleport from a zone that is easy to CR anyway?

There is just simply no way to reduce something as large as this mud into a few formulas.

That being said, I would hope that the gods not stick to the rigid point system. It greatest use is as a baseline. However, the ultimate goal of matching difficulty of zone with quality of equipment must be made pursuant to the experience of the players and gods of the mud, not formulas..

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Postby Gormal » Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:17 pm

Its like the way eq was statted went from one end of the spectrum to the other completely. We've got a great tool now to base stats off of, just gotta find the happy medium.
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:30 pm

omfg, I agree with Gormal.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:30 pm

Its like the way eq was statted went from one end of the spectrum to the other completely. We've got a great tool now to base stats off of, just gotta find the happy medium.
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Postby Shargaas » Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:12 am

There is already places to modify individual fights and entire zones with an 'other' variable.

a. Greater beholders are worth more than 5x the points of your standard dwarf.

b. The harp earring is a very rare but from an easy fight, mistweave isn't from an easy fight. Rarity can only be worth so much otherwise those difficult to get rare items would be even more powerful.

c. You only get credit for distance when its through an aggr area.

d. Fights that can be avoided are worth nothing or next to nothing in a lot of cases. I won't go into details at this time.


The system does not have to be perfect. It is adaptable for future changes and far better than a couple of old wanks rocking back and forth commenting on new zone equipment with things like:
"Is it better than eq from my last zone?"
"It's the hardest zone ever? Really?"
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Thu Jan 01, 2004 12:16 am

Still doesn't answer why BC gear was downed/ignored and elemental tower gear was upgraded.
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Postby Jegzed » Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:05 am

Tanji Smanji wrote:Still doesn't answer why BC gear was downed/ignored and elemental tower gear was upgraded.


The BC cloak I wear is now hp+40 sv_pet-4.. used to be 50-ish hp and sv_pet-1. I don't play much anymore, so I don't know what else is good hp nowadays, but if any cloak this side of Tiamat is anywear near 35hp, then the system have so serious flaws, then the system needs a SERIOUS change.

I'm not sure if any of the current imm's have ever LED Bronze Citadel as a mortal, and can actually evaluate it.

In the evil groups that did it, I know Kelemvor, Bombadil & Shaundakul were there as mortals, but they are not around anymore, and were not a part of leading the zone. I can't recall if I still had my imm then or if I had quit it already.


Goodies spanked there so bad, that if it had not been for the fact that Corth had voloboots, been an illusionist and had skills enough to use that, they'd had lost their corpses, or had a fun 24+ hour CR.

In my humble opinion, Bronze Citadel takes more time and planning than any other zone on this mud have ever had. This zone should have the best rewards possible.

WHY?

1) It is a non-teleport zone, inside a non-teleport zone, inside an aggro town, that is off-prime. About the hardest to access.

2) The zone is filled with groups of demons. ie, the toughest opponents on the mud with MR and lots of procs. (yeah, dracoliches are tougher, but you don't see groups of them. )

3) The zone takes longer time than any other zone to do, and nobody have ever attempted it not on a weekend. If I recall correctly, the time it usually takes is 6-7 hours, not including hunting all rares at Avernus.

4) It involves hunting another tough zone for items to be able to finish the zone.

5) The endfight guarantees alot of corpses, with its "silly" procs.

I'm not sure about what is calculated, but is there ANYONE that thinks that Bronze Citadel is easier to do than the following zones?

- Seelie
- Muspelheim
- TTF

There are only four items that you get from finishing Bronze Citadel.
- An about cloak for mages, it used to be the best !tiamat about.
- A pair of cool sleeves for warriors. downgraded now I heard.
- A decent neckwear. With other downgrades its actually great now.
- The cool dagger that fights for itself.
(maybe I missed something, but dont recall..)

To balance this, you need to either up these items alot more, OR add more loot to BC. About 5-6 more items of similar attributes, and MAYBE the zone will be done again.
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Postby Gura » Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:11 am

Jegzed wrote:- A pair of cool sleeves for warriors. downgraded now I heard.


just to comment...these sleeves sucked before the changes..now they're worse.
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Postby Waelos » Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:47 am

Agree 100% with Gura and Jegzed. =)

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Postby Tanji Smanji » Thu Jan 01, 2004 3:30 am

Yet ET stuff got left or upgraded (yay for ac 10 1/2 leggings) rofl.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Jan 01, 2004 3:32 am

Just to clear stuff up...

The way Corth CR'd could have been done by any rogue online. If I had a lvl 40+ rogue I could have done the same CR, with or without volos.

The endfight doesn't guarantee corpses because of its procs. Dartana/Raburi never died once- it's all about knowing when to flee and to wear the right equipment to tank those trucks. The only thing dangerous in that room is the assassin.

As for BC being compared to other zones. IMHO it's still the hardest zone and I wish the Area gods would realize that it is extremely time consuming and somewhat difficult. Maybe they should try doing the zone.
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Postby belleshel » Thu Jan 01, 2004 5:35 pm

Jegzed wrote:I'm not sure about what is calculated, but is there ANYONE that thinks that Bronze Citadel is easier to do than the following zones?

- Seelie
- Muspelheim
- TTF



You could move all the mobs from seelies and muspel to TTF and BC still would be tougher. It's a travesty that gear there isn't superior to any gear outside Tiamat.
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Postby Nokie » Thu Jan 01, 2004 6:41 pm

Jegzed wrote:In my humble opinion, Bronze Citadel takes more time and planning than any other zone on this mud have ever had. This zone should have the best rewards possible.


I completely agree.
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Postby Yayaril » Thu Jan 01, 2004 8:17 pm

8)

BC gear should be upgraded in just the fact that the zone is so incredibly boring. Oh look- ANOTHER group of barbazu! YAWN. It's a trial of endurance just to fight through all those barbazu patrols. Much akin to playing Monopoly.
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Postby Mitharx » Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:43 am

Seems like another area where eq that can't be done or will never be done for reasons of time should be upgraded. The only problem with that is it doesn't give a shot to the people who play now to get equal eq (I mean if it's upgraded, not how things are now). But whatever. I'm all for upgrading eq I can't get to because I'm happy with what I got/can get.
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Postby Corth » Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:38 am

a) Agree dart. Any high level rogue could have cr'd that way.

b) Notwithstanding what Yayaril said, BC actually is a very fun zone. While I agree the eq should be upped, what I really would like to see is some of the items you need to collect from avernus made rentable so that you can split up the zone into two separate days.

c) Another thing that the eq system doesn't take into account is that sometimes its desirable to have some nice items made easy to get. How many newbies sat around twinking diamonds over and over in order to get enough plat to buy some much needed gear? Or back in the day, we used to twink the ugly green belt at boot. at the time many higher levels actually wore that item, yet a couple of level 25's could obtain it. Things like that ugly green belt actually made the game interesting at lower levels. Its pretty rough to tell a newbie that they should spends weeks and weeks exp'ing before they can even have even a little bit of fun... You need to give them small adventures with something profitable at the end...

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Postby Gormal » Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:00 am

Shargaas wrote:b. The harp earring is a very rare but from an easy fight, mistweave isn't from an easy fight. Rarity can only be worth so much otherwise those difficult to get rare items would be even more powerful.

d. Fights that can be avoided are worth nothing or next to nothing in a lot of cases. I won't go into details at this time.




I guess we might as well give up questing then.

Rarity on one mob that you smite and get an item, yes okay downgrade. But rarity on multiple-step quests? Quest rewards should be on par with zone equipment, no matter how difficult the fight is. I'll bet my right arm that there are more invasion (take your pick on which) items then harp earrings.

What about the lurkwood/gn quests? Erlan fights aren't that hard but how long does it take to do one from start to finish? Yes people had a bunch ready but it has been a couple years now since the zone was up. How do you define "difficult"? For some its hacking your way through 1000 demons, for another its learning a quest and spending a month or two completing it. I won't be bothering with any new quests around the MUD now because I know I'll be dissapointed in the reward.
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Postby Pheten » Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:10 am

God every person who has ever stepped foot in the zone (BC) agrees it is about the hardest thing currently available, without tiamat in the game. Wonder if the hint will ever get there. . . =)
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:32 pm

So what's the problem with the new point system and BC? I don't get it. I can understand some zones pointing the rewards by the end fight only, because there are ample rewards spread through the zone and it's not that hard to get to them. BC, however, is a zone where you have to grind through almost every damned mob in your way, and with that in mind, a huge amount of points should be allotted to the rewards, well over the amount that you should be able to get in zones that allow you to skip multiple fights.

As for goodies spanking so hard in BC... yeah, we were spanked, but it wasn't that we were spanked so hard we cried and ran home, it was just that we were all so tired and cranky by the time we got to that point, that there really wasn't any point in continuing, because we really didn't have any desire whatsoever to repeat everything we'd just done.
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Re: Ashiwi

Postby Todrael » Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:04 pm

1) The admin that checked over BC had never done the zone.
2) There is still room for subjectivity when calculating points.
3) Demons must be worth negative points instead of the huge crapload more than most any other mob type they should be worth.
4) The bleed proc might have been given a very low point allocation, even though with 8 demons procing it you can die in one round without ever getting hit.
5) They must have missed about half the zone somehow.

That's all I can think of.
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Postby moritheil » Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:36 pm

I honestly think that with Cyric and Dug in charge things will be checked over for overall difficulty as well as a blind point balance . . . but of course, I may well be wrong =/.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:20 am

Shargaas wrote:There is already places to modify individual fights and entire zones with an 'other' variable.

a. Greater beholders are worth more than 5x the points of your standard dwarf.

b. The harp earring is a very rare but from an easy fight, mistweave isn't from an easy fight. Rarity can only be worth so much otherwise those difficult to get rare items would be even more powerful.

c. You only get credit for distance when its through an aggr area.

d. Fights that can be avoided are worth nothing or next to nothing in a lot of cases. I won't go into details at this time.


The system does not have to be perfect. It is adaptable for future changes and far better than a couple of old wanks rocking back and forth commenting on new zone equipment with things like:
"Is it better than eq from my last zone?"
"It's the hardest zone ever? Really?"
"Yep, that boy ain't right."


It's occurred to me that this post said that "rarity can is only worth so much; observe how rare and hard to get things aren't all that powerful." While people were asking, "Why aren't said things more powerful?"

While it's impossible to quantify things down to minutia, there should be a few broad levels of classification. If I make an item rareload in a zone full of level 30 agro mobs, it shouldn't be worth much, but if those mobs all happen to be beholders, with dozens to a room, that block and/or detect rogues, and the rooms are all silenced, I think that that should justify a really nice item.

When it comes down to it, what we are trying to do is quantify suffering.
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Postby Lilithelle » Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:08 am

I think the point here thats being missed is, Gormal started this thread and his opinion doesn't count.

Eq can't have too good a stats just cause its rare, I do agree with that unless its by other factors like have to go through x beholders just to get it.

And its not that hard to get a group for MH beholders, there is a save that helps vs death procs. Dispel magic potions work wonders if you get feebed/enfeebed, para is now curable, and the load rate is sufficiently high that its not that bad. I object more to the orb of annihilation being made rare since it can't be checked for ahead of time, is a dangerous fight and so far i've done it four times and it only loaded once. Maybe should be 50/50 on a fight like that when its in a zone where you don't go to do the zone but usually just one or two things. Where as maybe it would be ok in muspel and clouds cause you get alot of stuff anyway and you didn't raise the group just to get that item just to have it not load.

Definitely agree BC needs eq upping, mantle from manscorps/seer kings is 45 hps. Lots of other really nice hitter sleeves out there now that are alot easier. And personally I disagree with a zone that can't be CR'd by legitamate means, such as using a global teleport device. Cause there is no longer the play base on to get a 2nd group good enough to CR at least if you die at non-peak hours and its virtually impossible to CR naked. There needs to be ways of holding the zone from repopping etc, I don't see the point on risking everything one has to gain a chance at 5 more hps, even for 20 more hps. Took me too long to get what I have between rare load, long quests, hard zones etc.

Seelie gets lots of points because of the number of high level mobs you have to mow through along with the procs. But with a sitter there is no risk of hard cr. My concern is it leads people to make zones that are just long gauntlets of mobs. Zones like jot and muspel are fun for one thing cause you can go up and do part of it, or do it in what order you like. And the points muspel invasion gets is assuming you fold around, it has to with the number of mobs that you fight on average when you fight due to mobs that "listen" for combat entering. And more of the eq is inside buildings you have to break into through gatehouses.
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Postby Lilithelle » Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:25 am

Oh and just because you spend 500 hours learning a new and cryptic quest can't justify more points unfortunately cause after a while that information becomes fairly well known, people get the info handed to them and suddenly the quest is easy,well easier!
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Postby Stamm » Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:58 pm

Just to pick up on something that was said about Seelie....

Can we just downgrade everything from the zone, apart from fully quested rings and staves, and downgrade the hps on the mobs to something reasonable?

The zone is a bad one in my opinion. Sorry, I know I've not made anything better, but I don't rate it.
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Postby Lilithelle » Sun Feb 29, 2004 7:45 am

I didn't like Seelie at first, since it does just seem like a long string of similar fights and all the same type of mobs, and the patrols at the start are sadistic if not handled right. But it grew on me, I like it as it is, if you bring a good group you can do it in decent time with minimal deaths but the procs, and the fact things wander and come to combat or patrol makes it never completely safe so have to be on guard. And its a semi-difficult zone which is good, something hard enough to take a good group but not so bad that you can only do it on a weekend.
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