Clear constructive way on how to fix melee. Coders Read!

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Crumar
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Clear constructive way on how to fix melee. Coders Read!

Postby Crumar » Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:49 pm

Got tired of reading all these posts about melee and weapon procs being powerful so here is my idea and opinion on how this mud should fix melee. NOTE: this is only my ideas you can debate or do what you want with it just please don’t flame the post. Please, only constructive criticism should be posted here, thank you.

Warriors class: Up the hit and damage of warrior class to be 12/15 (ideally would want 20 but may be too much) when naked if they have 100 on the respective stats that govern these abilities. So if they have less then 100 it would go down but the max would be 12/15 for 100. Add a extra AC by 20 naked for 100 agility for instance if the person has it. This way you don’t have to tweak items and they should be able to tank and hit a bit better. Make dodge, shield block and defensive skills go up by 10% more then what they normally dodge and block. So if they max out that skill it would be 10% more effective then it currently is now.

Equipment wise up the 2-handed weapons to where they were before. Just tweak the hit/dmg on eq that need it like you were planning to do anyway for the underpowered items and epic quest items.

Rogues: A new system for them. Rogues shouldn’t be doing more damage by hitting then warriors because warriors train their entire lives for that specific purpose. Instead this is my proposal on what rogues should be doing. Have them be able to backstab without the mob switching to them every time. If someone gets hit from the back they are not going to always turn around and pin the rogue in one area to only attack them. Why wold they leave their back turned to the main threat of 14 other players for instance? The rogue should have less damage overall as compared to a warrior but they should keep their dual wield attacks. Now here is the kicker. When rogues crits it should do double or triple damage. Up the crit rate for rogues to be double then what they normally do. The reasoning behind this is that rogues in battle tend to fight dirty. They are trained to hit vital areas of the body. Having them do damage this way will balance them out overall and the procs on those weapons they currently wield would add to the damage effectiveness of them being in the group.

Rangers: Double the damage on ranger archery. Give them a specialization in archery or a ability to do called shots where they have a chance to blind or silence a mob by hitting them in the throat or eyes for instance. This would make archery worth something. They can silence or blind something that is always wanted and hence make the rangers wanted in groups. Plus they would become the rogues of hitters because they can duel wield and hit like a rogue is hitting now if you modify the hit damage to how you would do it for warriors.

Mage classes: Reduce mage spell damage by 10%. Invoker target spells reduce them by 20% but leave area spells as is or reduce only by 10%. No one will bitch if they have their spells only reduced by 10%, as it still will be affective for their soloing and make them wanted in groups to balance the new melee system.

Priest classes: Reduce druids damage by 10% and speed up the chant for well. Up priests by either giving them more hit and damage so they could be like the warriors currently are. For instance 16/20 and be able to land hits at least once every other round. Clerics can get harm spell upped that acts like full harm (heal) for instance 400 hp a casting. They can then stop complaining they do no damage. Add 10% more damage to shaman spells so they can stop complaining too :P (sorry don’t know much about priests).

So basically what I am saying is the warrior should have on average 32/35 1 handed for instance with their only 2 attacks (3 with haste). For rangers, paladins and anti’s would be around 40/55 but that is alright because they are a mix of duel wielding or 2h hitters with tanking skill.

Rogues should have 25/35 at most for instance but have them crit crazy to have them do more damage overall then a warrior would. So if they are critting every other round they would have the weapons proc plus 70-105 damage for that hit. Make them be able to hit like warriors do so that a warrior with 16 hit right now can on average hit most mobs instead of having rogues have a average of 27 to hit something.

Hope this helps you out coders, use or tweak what you can it should be a good system overall in my opinion. Good luck.

Crumar.
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Postby Crumar » Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:49 pm

Any coders want to chime in and see if any of these ideas can be implemented? I think you would make a lot of people happy if this was done right and fix the problems of melee all in one shot. So far there have been a lot of views on this post but no one responded. Maybe no one has any gripes with this system. People tend to post negative feedback when they don't see something they like so please take a look at this proposal thanks.

Also note I may have read something about rangers or another class in a post and subconsciously borrowed a idea here and there while I was brainstorming so credit is due to those who put some of these ideas up there before me, thanks.


Crumar
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Postby Yarash » Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:16 pm

I think implementing these changes as stated would be a bad idea.

First of all, the topic of changing spells doesn't belong in a post about fixing melee.

In regards to making rogue damage worse than that of a warrior, this would throw melee even more out of whack. What balances the melee classes against each other is tanking abilities vs damage abilities. Warriors are the most popular fighter class because they are considered the best tanks. Rogues are also very popular. They are not considered tanks, but they do the most damage. If warriors do more damage than rogues, there will be far less reason to play a rogue and there deffinetly will be no reason to choose a rogue over a warrior when exping. I realize their desirability in zones is due to their other skills, but those skills don't go far when trying to get to a zonable level. This should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.

A warrior's damage shouldn't really be an issue imo, just like a rogue's tanking abilities. The roller description and help files should clearly state this so new players don't feel shortchanged.

Improving ranger archery damage and adding special effects (blind, etc) is a good idea. Maybe rangers could even poison their arrows somehow, or allow mages (or rangers) to enchant them.

Now in regards to melee damage not being good enough, there are a couple ways to look at it, single target fights and area fights. Changing melee damage has significant impact over single target fights. If hitter classes aren't doing enough damage in such fights, then their base (racial/classful) damage should be increased proportionally across the board. In area fights, you just will never do the same damage as a caster...as it should be. This is not to say that hitters shouldn't have some fun area type skills. Such skills could impact up to three or four mobs, and could be used while engaged:

- "sweep" Using a weapon of adequate length, the fighter swings in one large arc, striking multiple opponents at once.

- "(something) kick" I don't know what this is called, but when the person sort of squats down, extends his leg and spins, knocking several people's legs from under them. The emphasis could be on either damage, or stun.

- "spin kick" This would be like the one above, but standing up and just doing damage.

- Nets. I think gladiators used nets somehow. Maybe there could be net items that fighters could use. It could affect a small group of mobs too. The effect could be similar to entangle, where the mobs can't flee, in addition to some damage.

- "throw"
A) Now maybe this is just cheesy, but in movies and video games, sometimes the hero grabs a stunned bad guy and throws him at a group of other bad guys, knocking them all down. This would deffinetly be a fun skill. The person to throw would have to be stunned first, no bigger than the thrower, and the three to four mobs hit would be knocked over.
B) If the skill turned out to be too difficult to use, perhaps it could be expanded to include corpses as throwable items.
C) And if the coders really wanted to torture themselves with complex projects, they could even add in an option to throw another (willing) warrior for a combo move. For example, the thrown warrior could do a flying kick type thing, knocking over a group of enemies, stunning them and doing sizable damage.

I don't think skills like these would throw the game out of whack, but they would make the game more fun for some people, and that's why we're all here.

- Mike
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Postby Stamm » Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:16 am

Yarash wrote:I think implementing these changes as stated would be a bad idea.

First of all, the topic of changing spells doesn't belong in a post about fixing melee.


Rubbish.

It absolutely belongs in a post talking about fixing melee.
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Re: Clear constructive way on how to fix melee. Coders Read!

Postby Salen » Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:42 am

Crumar wrote: No one will bitch if they have their spells only reduced by 10%.


hahahahahahahahaha

That is all
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Postby Yarash » Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:03 am

Stamm wrote:
Yarash wrote:I think implementing these changes as stated would be a bad idea.

First of all, the topic of changing spells doesn't belong in a post about fixing melee.


Rubbish.

It absolutely belongs in a post talking about fixing melee.


Explain how it is anything other than bitter warriors trying to feel better about themselves by hosing other classes.

- Mike
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Postby Crumar » Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:12 am

Ok lets go back a step and let me explain why I feel this is the right way to go about the changes. First off the coders are not going to give melee something and not leave casters alone because if they did this then the balance would shift to the player characters only. Upping the damage of melee and leaving alone casters will just make us kill everything faster. There needs to be a balance. That is why monks were taken out of the game because they created an imbalance and instead invokers were eventually created. At one time warrior classes could tank, hit and do other stuff they cannot do now because the Immortals wanted to balance out the melee classes versus the caster classes by having casters do the most damage (as it should be). If warriors should only be the meat shields fine I have no problem with that but up the other warrior classes.

Secondly, this mud is based on Forgotten Realms, which is a role-playing game regardless of what we might think otherwise. From a RP perspective mages should do the most damage and especially invokers. But on the melee side, damage wise it’s the warrior classes (paladins, anti-paladins, rangers, and yes even warriors). Right now one force missile does roughly 300-350 damage if you are high-level invoker. That is just one missile. So even if you did 200 damage for one missile (being conservative) per round no hitter in the world can match a 3-missile attack. So if we brought that down to 10% loss of damage that would equate to only losing 30-35 dmg a missile, or max 105 damage you could possibly lose a round for example. So if you did 900 dmg that round from force missiles you would only do 795 a round and is still very powerful. Now by adding damage to warrior classes they can make up for this deficiency balancing out the extra 105 hp losses. Remember we are trying to balance the classes. Same goes for other caster spells, but I am just using force missile as an example because its one of the most damaging spells if not the best out there.

As for rogues, if you read my system yes they will lose damage about 10 for every hit for instance because from a RP perspective they should not hit as hard as warriors and especially not as hard as rangers. But what they will be gaining in exchange is getting their critical strikes upped by the immortals by double the norm for only their class. With each crit they would do double or triple damage per crit (depending on what the immortals would find balanced). They would hit currently like warriors do now (needing only 16-20 hit) instead of having to stock up on hit to damage. So if they wanted to be damage beasts they can go out and get eq that could effectively put them at around 35-40 dmg and do double the norm on crits including proc weapons.

As well, most rogue weapons do extra attacks and damage with crits so they would be getting even more damage from that. Levelling would be a bit slower if they don’t have proc weapons at start but we all know that rogues level way fast as compared to other classes anyway so that should not really factor in. Rogues will always be grouped because they are the CR, lure master’s, the locksmiths and trap removers of the game. Add to the fact that they will actually benefit from this by their weapons continually firing non-stop from critical attacks and have their double or triple damage they could possibly do 70-105 hp damage from one hit. Hasted they could possibly get 5 attacks per round with two crits each round (on par with a high level spell attack) without ever having to memorize like a mage.

Why this way you may ask because melee sucks? Rangers would become useful hitters once again. We are not nerfing rogues we are improving on them and balancing them from a RP perspective. Rogues would be played more because they would proc way more then any other class and do the same amount of damage. I cannot put myself in Shev’s shoes but from a player perspective and being an immortal on other mud’s I can safely say that no person who runs a game will give the players a great advantage over his or her world. It just will not happen. We can bitch and whine till hell freezes over but in the end something has to be taken in order to give. If you think otherwise well that is your prerogative I wish I could have it all without losing anything too but I am sure that will not happen. We ALL agree melee is broken so I am just putting out a safe system for Shev and staff to consider. I hope this helped explain things a bit better thanks.

Crumar.
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Postby Malia » Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:48 am

Invokers are overpowered.. plain and simple, because of this melee is out of whack, who wants to bring melee when you can bring a voker and do 5x the damage and areas. That being said, that is why it belongs in this thread. Yes i have a voker, and yes i have a hitter.. Voker damage should be downed at least 10% id shoot more for 20-25% as a whole, make fights fun again instead of just blasting through everything.
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:58 am

Balance is only ok to talk about when it doesn't affect your class.
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Postby Yayaril » Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:53 pm

Malia wrote:Voker damage should be downed at least 10% id shoot more for 20-25% as a whole, make fights fun again instead of just blasting through everything.


You don't find it fun to blast through everything?
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Postby belleshel » Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:58 pm

Malia wrote:Invokers are overpowered.. plain and simple, because of this melee is out of whack, who wants to bring melee when you can bring a voker and do 5x the damage and areas. That being said, that is why it belongs in this thread. Yes i have a voker, and yes i have a hitter.. Voker damage should be downed at least 10% id shoot more for 20-25% as a whole, make fights fun again instead of just blasting through everything.


Actually I think its all the area damage that adds up. Invokers should be downed some, but so should all area spells, invokers themselves aren't the sole culprits.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:20 pm

agree malia. it was actually fun destroying CC with 3 melee and 1 invoker/druid
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby belleshel » Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:26 pm

*Remembers fondly the first few months of the wipe when all the zones were done using melee*
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Postby Dalar » Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:57 pm

*agree* I remember finishing yan with all melee. 10 minutes baby!
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Re: Clear constructive way on how to fix melee. Coders Read!

Postby Xisiqomelir » Sun Jan 04, 2004 2:18 am

Hitter eq is rubbish. What's a maxed out set, 50/50? And weapon dice are abysmal too.
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Postby old depok » Sun Jan 04, 2004 4:13 pm

As for rogues, if you read my system yes they will lose damage about 10 for every hit for instance because from a RP perspective they should not hit as hard as warriors and especially not as hard as rangers. But what they will be gaining in exchange is getting their critical strikes upped by the immortals by double the norm for only their class. With each crit they would do double or triple damage per crit (depending on what the immortals would find balanced). They would hit currently like warriors do now (needing only 16-20 hit) instead of having to stock up on hit to damage. So if they wanted to be damage beasts they can go out and get eq that could effectively put them at around 35-40 dmg and do double the norm on crits including proc weapons.

The problem with this system Stamm is you are guaranteeing that no one will play any class as a rogue except Dwarf. This is due to the strength bonus. Also, you would make all rogues deck themselves out with +max_str items at the cost of all else.

I already have pretty much retired my halfling rogue cause he can't cr. This would retire the elves as well because they couldn't match the dwarves for damage. Rogues should not be dependant on strenth to do their jobs. Dexterity is what should be the mainstay of the rogue class. Currently dex means jack shit and strength means everything. This will only make this even more the case.

As for the difference between single target and area damage it is pretty easy to tell that rogues suck compared to all area casters. All you have to do is play a rogue and do gatehouse. By the time your mob dies all other mobs are PH or awful. This tells me that the single targeting that a rogue does squat compared to spells. By the time you switch to a mob it is then dead before you can circle.

Until that changes, melee will always be a poor choice vs casters.
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Postby Mitharx » Sun Jan 04, 2004 5:50 pm

Quick hi-jack for the useless rogue comments: Why not just move a halfling str notch to where it's achievable in the +max area. If that's a problem with dwarves, just move their notch down one too. Not much dwarves can't drag now and I'm not sure it would make much of a difference in any case.
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Postby Jegzed » Sun Jan 04, 2004 5:58 pm

belleshel wrote:*Remembers fondly the first few months of the wipe when all the zones were done using melee*


Hehe, for evils it was the reverse.. Just slammed in as many psi's and invokers we could.
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Postby Nokie » Sun Jan 04, 2004 10:08 pm

old depok wrote:The problem with this system Stamm is you are guaranteeing that no one will play any class as a rogue except Dwarf.

I already have pretty much retired my halfling rogue cause he can't cr.

As for the difference between single target and area damage it is pretty easy to tell that rogues suck compared to all area casters. All you have to do is play a rogue and do gatehouse. By the time your mob dies all other mobs are PH or awful. This tells me that the single targeting that a rogue does squat compared to spells. By the time you switch to a mob it is then dead before you can circle.


You have some great points there. I'll give you a real-world scenario so illustrate how wacky it is:

When Nokie (who is at 100 str) gets reduced, he is so weak that he can't even dual weapons anymore. When Pava (dwarf rogue) gets reduced, not only can he still dual, but he can still drag barbarian corpses. Nokie can't drag barbarian corposes evn when he's enlarged and at 119 str.

I also agree with your correct obvservation about gatehouse fights. It's like why even bother trying to deal melee damage.
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Postby Waelos » Sun Jan 04, 2004 10:17 pm

Would it be unbalancing to remove the whole str limitation when draging corpses all together? That way rogues can be rogues and CR like they're made to no matter their race? Or would that unbalance rogue races? Seems that they would be pretty balanced already ...except humans =)

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Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:41 pm

Removing the strength check for draging corpses will not unbalance things. People would still roll dwarves for the extra damage, halflings for the extra attacks, humans for whatever reason people roll human rogues, and elves cause they get !fail sneak. It will just allow people to play elves and halflings rogues again.

As it is now, people only really take dwarves because they are the only ones that can CR the group. I have been in more than one group as a shaman and heard this "need to find a rogue for the group. Dwarf only"

Maybe make the check for moves not for dragging at all? Make sure that the check for moves allows corpses to be dragged for at least one room no matter what. Still give dwarves and humans a benefit for their strength but make it so that benefit is the ability to drag corpses farther.

Sorry to hijack the thread.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:45 pm

old depok wrote:Removing the strength check for draging corpses will not unbalance things. People would still roll dwarves for the extra damage, halflings for the extra attacks, humans for whatever reason people roll human rogues, and elves cause they get !fail sneak. It will just allow people to play elves and halflings rogues again.


Just reiterating that some of us elves don't have too many problems dragging corpses, unless the corpse is weighted down pretty heavily.
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Postby belleshel » Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:48 pm

old depok wrote:As it is now, people only really take dwarves because they are the only ones that can CR the group. I have been in more than one group as a shaman and heard this "need to find a rogue for the group. Dwarf only"


Nothing like a positive leader. Look we are going to have a nasty spank so we need someone that can get us out of there. Maybe it's who I follow into zones, but I've never seen a racial preferance for rogues.
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Postby thanuk » Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:50 pm

old depok wrote:
As it is now, people only really take dwarves because they are the only ones that can CR the group. I have been in more than one group as a shaman and heard this "need to find a rogue for the group. Dwarf only"



Stop Rogue Racial Profiling!
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:54 pm

Yeah, what Thanuk said. Please stop spreading these nasty rumors that only dwarves can drag, since it's obviously not true.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:56 pm

Oh, and I didn't mean "Please stop spreading these nasty rumors that only dwarves can DRESS IN drag..." They're definitely not the only ones who can... just the only ones who typically do.
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Postby Nokie » Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:50 pm

How about affirmative action for halflings?!
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Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:28 pm

Just another sign of the man trying to keep us halflings down!

halflings unite! (so we can drag those bard corpses!)
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:36 pm

old depok wrote:halflings unite! (so we can drag those bard corpses!)


Maybe that's a new skill rogues should get.

Pall Bearer (or is it pal?):
Syntax: bear <other rogue> <corpse>
Aggressive: no

An even number of rogues band together and lift a corpse that would normally be too heavy for any one of those rogues to drag on their own. If any of the rogues currently bearing the corpse becomes attacked or moves from the room not with the corpse all other rogues stop bearing corpse. They can retry to move the corpse again, but must keep an even number of rogues, unless they have a director. This director must have a higher skill level then any of the other rogues, in essence the bearing rogues follow the director as one would normally follow a group leader.

Each time a corpse is dropped there is a chance that it will immidatly rot. Each subsuquent drop dramatically increases this chance at instant corpse rot.
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Postby Crumar » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:25 pm

I agree with the corpse dragging for rogues. They should be able to drag anyone just make it move based. The heavier the corpse is the more movement they lose.

Ok now can we stick to the topic about fixing melee please? Still would like to hear from a coder on anything that may intrest them thanks.

Crumar.
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Postby Hyldryn » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:29 pm

I think fixing melee will help prevent an unexpected litter of little melees.

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