Melee Evolved - The Return

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Melee Evolved - The Return

Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:11 am

Rule of the thread:

Engage in intelligent debate about the system as it applies to things you know about because it's something you do, or play as, on the mud.

No flames.

No childish behavior.

Be serious and engage in the debate, you'd be surprised who cares and just how much about this topic.

Fuck it up, I take it back to private channels and you get '...' again.
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:15 am

The Theme: Increase Utility, Variety, and Combat Tactics. The number of fighters in a group will increase these factors as well as their overall effectiveness in grouping environments as well as provide different fighting styles and tactics per encounter. Let’s take MUD melee to a whole new level. This system is presented as it applies to all melee based classes in general, and should not be considered as the only solution to all individual class changes/fixes. It is understood that each class will still need to be tweaked further on an individual basis. This is a root system and how it deals with all classes taken together.

Definition: Fighter implies Warrior, Paladin, Anti-Paladin, Ranger, and Dire Raider.

Tog-able Skills: (These skills when toggled on become reflexive)
Parry – on increases tanking ability somehow, off increases damage ability somehow (drains Mana)
Riposte – on decreases tanking ability somehow, off increases damage ability somehow (drains Mana)
Bat Weapon – on decreases ac, off increases ac (drains Mana)
Shieldblock – on increases tanking ability, off increases damage ability somehow (drains Mana)
Shieldpunch – on increases damage somehow, off increases tanking somehow (drains Mana)
Kick – on increases damage somehow, off increases tanking somehow (drains Mana)
Headbutt – on increases damage some how, off increases tanking somehow (drains Mana)
Quick Stand – if on while overloaded and fighter is sprawled causes them to be sprawled for increased duration.
Damage Reduction – on decreases melee damage taken (drains Mana)
Armor Optimization – on increases AC (drains Mana)

NOTE: Reflexive skills will not have the increased potential special effects as compared to manually using the skills.

Summary of the Tog-able skills system:
-Tog-able Defensive skills do not allow a fighter to tank better then having a normal full defensive spell up. At 50th level with defensive skills max’d, and appropriate equipment worn, their tanking ability equals it but for a much shorter duration. (50th warrior with all reflexive defensive skills could tank all jot gate house one extra round max.)
-Fighters gain Mana with levels. (Basic Mana ranges at 50th should look something like: Warrior 120-130. Paladin/Anti 100-119. Ranger/Dire Raider 80-90. And 40-50 for Rogues.)
-Tog-able Defensive skills drain Mana, the more you have on the more you will drain, the faster you drain the shorter your increased tanking skills last. With all defensive skills Tog’d on, a 50th Warrior should be able to tank against a single target up to 3 rounds longer then currently at max. The more targets the fighter is tanking, the faster his Mana will burn up and return him to the equivalent of current tanking abilities.
-Certain defensive spells (blur, displace, stone, scales, armor) reduce Mana drain of tog-able defensive skills. With enough defensive spells, a tank’s Mana drain (even with all defensive skills turned on) can be reduced to zero if no offensive skills are tog’d on. The more powerful the defensive spell, the higher the Mana reduction.
-Bard/Battlechanter Song of Renewal replenishes Fighter Mana.

Why Tog-able skills?:
One word: Customization. Allowing fighters to toggle what auto-abilities they want to have running at the time, will allow them to cater their tactics to the specific group situation and combat encounter. This also leaves them free to perform more utility oriented actions on the fly. By setting their fighting actions, they effectively control themselves on a fighting style level, allowing each fighter to be dramatically different in the field of battle.

Why Mana?:
-Fighters become better at their default skills as they gain levels by increased skill level (level) and duration (Mana) of those skills.
- Limits the duration of exceptional tanking abilities. (balance)
- Enhances their defensive abilities with the presence of a bard/battlechanter, but not be inherently dependent upon that class. (Preservation of current !fighter class roles.)
- A fighter will be able to control their Mana drain by choosing which skills to turn on compared to the spell-ups he or she will receive from group members.
EDIT:- Mana gained per level will be based on Intelligence, Wisdom, Strength, and Constitution scores, allowing a reason to play more intelligent races.
EDIT: - Mana here for melee is representing fatigue and battle wisdom.
- Having a highly customizable Mana based system increases the need for more active player involvement with their character. (Less botting)


Skill Modifications:
Riposte – gains a chance to disarm mob’s weapon if mob is wielding when used manually.
Kick – chance to stun mobs for increased duration when used manually (Extra long chance Vs male humanoids).
Shieldpunch – Can be reflexive and works like a riposte but with a shield.
Bandage – Also removes any impaled weapons. Still only able to be done when not currently engaged.

New Melee Skills #25: (Players and Mobs)
1 Defensive Formation ‘Form’ – (War 10/Pal 15/Ant 15/Rng 17/Dire 17) Fighters using Defensive Formation with each other reduce a mobs chance to switch to players who are not using Defensive Formation. Skill is ineffective until multiple fighters assist each other using this skill. The more fighters using this skill together, the stronger their ability to defend the group. DF would reach 80% effectiveness with 5 fighters. Each additional fighter beyond 5 increases 5% to a max of 100% at 9 fighters defending 5 others. Skill is dependant upon the level of the fighter compared to attacking mob, fighter’s skill level, and amount of players being protected (grouped members not using DF). Defensive Formation does not foil when moving, but does fail when groups are forced through one-way rooms/tunnels or if any participating fighters flee combat. (This makes using defensive formations when fighting dragons near impossible as appropriate). Intelligence based skill that does not drain mana. This skill can fall, and subsequently need to be re-established, if the fighter is sprawled, buffeted, stunned, or incapacitated.
EDIT: (Can't believe I forgot to mention one of the main points of this ability) Each additional fighter participating in a defensive formation increases the effect of defensive skills and reduces mana drain. The specific type of fighter is irrelevant, allowing Paladins, Antipaladins, Rangers, and Dire Raiders to contribute equally.

2 Defensive Stance ‘Defend’ – (War 15/Pal 20/Ant 20/Rng 25/Dire 25) forsake all offensive attacks to gain advanced parry, riposte, and ac bonuses. This allows a fighter to be able to go beyond –100 AC and when combined with the right tog’d options, makes them a tanking machine for a very limited duration. This physically taxing skill is Con based. This skill while in use doubles any current Mana drain.

3 Defensive Parameter ‘Protect’– (War 12/Pal 17/Ant 17/Rng 22/Dire 22) Fighters successfully using Defensive Formation can attempt this skill, which takes a slight delay to become active, allow themselves to engage any aggressive mobs who enter the area without disturbing the memorizing/praying of any grouped cleric/mages. Success is dependant upon skill level as well as the number of fighters using the skill per number of current room exits. Wisdom based skill.

4 Offensive Shove ‘Shove’ – (War 25/Pal 30/Ant 30) Fighter attempts to shove the target mob away from who it is currently fighting, causing it to disengage temporarily. Mob cannot be immaterial. Strength based skill. (Think forced switch on a mob to put it simply.)

5 Defensive Shove ‘Push’ – (War 25/Pal 30/Ant 30) Fighter attempts to shove their current opponent away from them as they retreat to another room. Defensive Shove has the added benefit of not foiling a currently active Defensive Formation. Mob cannot be immaterial. Strength based skill. (This is retreat for fighters in a formation, but works even if tanking. Cannot be used unless fighter is in an active formation.)

6 Bat Weapon – (War22/Pal27/Ant27/Rng32/Dire32) Slash/bludgeon weapons only. Fighter attempts to smack their opponents weapon back at them with such force (and by using the enemies momentum against them) it strikes the wielder. Dexterity based skill.

7 Pin Weapon – (War 30/Pal 35/Ant 35/Rng 32/Dire 32/Rogue 40) Keeps mob from using weapon while skill is in effect. Mob makes attempt when player first tries to land skill to foil, and once per round afterwards to break free. Mobs who successfully break free, with successful strength and skill checks, have a chance to throw the fighter, causing him or her to sprawl for 1-2 rounds. Only one fighter can pin 1 weapon of the mob. Dexterity based skill.

8 Pin Arm – (War 35/Pal 40/Ant 40/Rng 40/Dire 40) Reduces mob’s number of attacks while skill is in effect (1 less attack). Mob makes attempt when player first tries to land skill to foil, and once per round afterwards to break free. Mobs who successfully break free, with successful strength and skill checks, have a chance to throw the fighter, causing him or her to sprawl for 1-2 rounds. Only one fighter can pin 1 appendage per mob. A successful use of this skill also increases any other attacking fighters chances at severing the arm of the mob. Strength based skill.

9 Extract Weapon ‘Extract’ – (War/Pal/Ant/Rng/Dire/Rogue) 10th level. Use this command to remove 1 impaled weapon within you per available hand you have.

10 Head Shot – (War/Pal/Ant/Rng/Dire/Rogue) 40th Level. An extremely hard to hit attack against a mob’s head. Weapon type indicates possible additional effects beyond initial critical hit damage bonus. Slash/Pierce = loss of switch ability. Bludgeon = bodyslam + stun. Cannot be used against mobs without heads or undead, also useless against golems and magical constructs.

11 Impale Enemy – (War/Pal/Ant/Rng/Dire) 45th Level. 2h slash/2h pierce weapons only, works as major para for duration. Mob makes attempt when player first tries to land skill, and once per round afterwards to break free. Impaled target takes maximum weapon damage per round, but fighter who is wielding sword cannot take any actions or auto attack as they are attempting to keep the enemy impaled on their sword. The target also cannot be bashed while Impaled, so you have to decide which is more appropriate. Fighter can un-impale their enemy by using the ‘unimpale’ command, allowing them to attack normally – this un-major para’s the mob of course. This skill does not work against certain races or races a size category larger then the fighter, UNLESS the fighter is mounted in which case they can Impale a target 1 size category larger then themselves. (ie. A human couldn’t impale an ogre, but a mounted paladin could). Strength based skill. (Think garrote with wielded weapon instead of a wire)

12 Kneecap Smash – (War 20/Pal 25/Ant 25/Cleric 30) bludgeon weapons only. Successful attempt causes mob to kneel for one round. Cumulative successful kneecap smashes forces mob into perm kneeling position when mob has been Kneecap smashed for equal number of legs it has. Skill also stuns mob for limited duration as they scream in agony. Skill is ineffective against mobs with no legs and/or bone structure. This is a Strength + Intelligence based skill

13 Impale Weapon – (War 35/Pal 37/Ant 37/Rng 40/Dire 40/Rogue 30) Piercing weapons only. Successful attempt leaves weapon stuck into mob causing maximum damage of that weapon each round. 1 wielded weapon can be impaled per round, 2 if dualing. (Load a mob up with crappy daggers and watch it take multiple amounts of stacked single target damage per round). Must use wielded weapons to do this. Ineffective against undead and immaterial races such as elementals/wraiths. This is a Strength + Intelligence based skill. (Think archery and arrows but using a wielded piercing weapon instead with no bow.)

14 Overbear – (War/Pal/Ant/Rng/Dire/Rogue) 20th level. Fighters attempt to pin down an opponent by jumping them at the same time. Mob cannot attack, flee, or cast spells. Extremely hard on some mobs, downright impossible on others. Size, strength, and weight of fighters is compared to that of the mob. Oozes, centipedes, giants, dragons, etc cannot be victims of Overbearing attacks. A mob who breaks free sprawls all participating warriors to the ground for 1-2 rounds with a chance to stun. (Think Bard’s Accompany + Rogue’s Garrote but the effect is major para. Fighters can’t be wielding weapons or wearing shields to use this ability.)

15 QuickStand – (War 12/Pal 15/Ant 15/Rng 10/Dire 10/Rogue 12) A sprawled fighter attempts to acrobatically spring to his feet in less time then normal. Can only be done with Very Light load or lighter. This is an agility based reflexive skill that drains no mana.

16 Sever Arm – (War 42/Pal 43/Ant 43/Rng 42/Dire 42) slashing weapons only, slows mob when 50% of the mob’s arms have been removed (as specified by each individual race) and prevents mob from casting spells above 7th circle. This would stop all major area damage by high level mobs.) Hard to land skill. Easier to land when mob is lower in HPs. Mob also takes a great deal of initial damage, and continually takes damage each round from bleeding until magically healed or bandaged. Skill is ineffective against mobs with no arms. The higher the mob’s armor class the harder it is for this skill to be successful. Strength based skill. (Think Slow + Stackable Ebony Poison Proc as a skill that needs to be stacked depending on how many arms the race has for the Slow effect to work)

17 Sever Leg – (War 42/Pal 43/Ant 43/Rng 42/Dire 42) slashing weapons only, reduces mob armor class permanently, mobile also cannot heal back up to max HPs. Mob also takes a great deal of initial damage, and continually takes damage each round from bleeding until magically healed or bandaged. If all the mobs legs are severed (as specified by its’ race) then the mob is now unable to move. Skill is ineffective against mobs with no legs. The higher the mob’s ac the harder it is for this skill to be successful. Strength based skill, not useable by Rogues. (Think Blackmantle + Stackable Ebony Poison Proc + Faerie Fire as a skill that needs to be stacked depending on how many legs the race has to work)

18 Sap – (War 20/Pal 25/Ant 25/Rng 20/Dire 20/Rogue 22/Cleric 30) Puts mob to sleep temporarily. Bludgeon weapons only. Sap attacks have a chance to stun mob if they don’t sleep it. Mob race needs to be alive and have a head to work.

19 Swap Opponents – (War 20/Pal 22/Ant 22) A fighter attempts to switch with another fighter on who they are currently fighting/tanking. In essence, a mass rescue. Both Fighters must have an active Defensive Formation for skill to be successful. Agility based skill, no Rogues.

20 Defensive Trance - (War 10/Pal 12/Ant 12/Rng 15/Dire 15) A resting fighter can speed up his HP and Mana regeneration by slipping into a trance. Any actions disturb the trance and spoil the effects. Song of Renewal increases the effects of Defensive Trance. (Think Meditate + Song of Regen for fighters.)

21 Damage Reduction – (War 25/Pal 30/Ant 30/Rng 35/Dire 35) By rolling with the blows and exerting more effort, a fighter is able to reduce the damage taken from physical blows (like a boxer rolling with the punches). This is a tog-able skill that drains Mana when on.

22 Armor Optimization – (War 25/Pal 27/Ant 27/Rng 30/Dire 30) By using the strong points of his armor, a fighter is able to confound his enemy’s attacks, making him harder to hit. This is a tog-able skill that drains Mana when on. With higher skill level, the AC bonuses increases (+5 at 30th, +10 at 40th, +15 at 45th, +20 at 50th).

23 War Cry - (War 30/Pal 32/Ant 32/Rng 40/ Dire 40) Fighter becomes one with his weapons, striking faster and more deadly. Duration is 3 rounds at 30 skill, 4 rounds at 60 skill, 5 rounds at 90 skill– ends second any auto skills are tog’d. All defensive skills must be tog’d off to work. Costs 75 Mana. Failed War Cry attempt causes Fighter to suffer the effects of Ray of Enfeeblement 5 rounds max. (Think Haste + Bless but actually stacks with those skills).

24 Iron Will - (War 35/Pal 42/Ant 42) Fighter has become accustomed to the sensations of pain and has learned to persevere beyond normal thresholds allowing them to remain conscious until –10 hps at which point they die normally. This reflexive skill drains no mana and is Con based.

25 BodyShield (War 40/Pal 45/Ant 45) Fighter equipped with shield, (larger/heavier the better), attempts to block/reduce incoming hostile area magic to himself and one protected target by becoming a human shield. The more damage the fighter takes, the less the protected target takes. Intelligence, Height, and Weight based skill that can only be used if fighter is in an active formation. (Hello big Warriors)


Remember those spell combination effects rumor? What if it was actually done with Melee?

Examples of Possible Combination tactics:
Sever Leg (On all legs) + Sever Arm (to all arms) = Major para
Sever Leg (all legs) + Sever Arm (all arms) + Backstab = Instant Death
Impale Enemy + Impale Weapon = Increased Critical hit percentage per Impaled Weapon attack, percentage increase stays with each impaled weapon from round to round allowing for massive single target damage. Fighters who keep impaling a mob with more and more weapons will increase damage per round as fighting progresses.
Pin Weapon + Pin Arm = Disarms the mob.
Impale Enemy + Head Shot (with piercer) = Instant Death
Last edited by Sesexe on Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:17 am

Warrior Evolved (What it'd look like)

SKILL_WARRIOR

The following is a list of all skills available to the Warrior class:

SKILLS

1st level: kick, bash, rescue, mount, offense, 1h bludgeon, 1h
slashing, 1h piercing, 1h misc, 2h bludgeon, 2h slashing,
2h misc, bandage, swimming

5th level: parry, shieldblock, shieldpunch, defense

8th level: dodge, unbind

10th level: blindfighting, defensive formation, extract weapon,
defensive trance

12th level: defensive parameter, quickstand

15th level: double attack, hitall, defensive stance

20th level: dual wield, switch opponents, riposte, kneecap smash,
overbear, sap, swap opponents

22nd level: disarm, bat weapon

25th level: offensive shove, defensive shove, damage reduction,
armor optimization

30th level: pin weapon, war cry

35th level: pin arm, impale weapon, iron will

40th level: headbutt, headshot, bodyshield

42nd level: sever arm, sever leg

45th level: impale enemy

See also: WARRIOR, WEAPONS, SKILLS
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:18 am

Paladin Evolved

SKILL_PALADIN

The following is a list of all skills and spells available to the
Paladin class:

SKILLS

1st level: bash, rescue, mount, offense, 1h bludgeon, 1h slashing,
1h piercing, 1h misc, 2h bludgeon, 2h slashing, 2h misc
bandage, swimming

5th level: defense

10th level: meditate, quick chant, clerical spell knowledge,
spellcast generic, spellcast healing, spellcast
teleportation, spellcast summoning, spellcast protection,
spellcast divination, spellcast enchantment, spellcast
nature, spellcast spirit, mounted combat, extract weapon

12th level: parry, defensive trance

15th level: dodge, summon mount, hitall, blindfighting, defensive
formation, quickstand

17th level: defensive parameter

20th level: double attack, switch opponents, defensive stance,
overbear

22nd level: disarm, swap opponents

25th level: riposte, kneecap smash, sap

27th level: bat weapon, armor optimization

30th level: offensive shove, defensive shove, damage reduction

32nd level: war cry

35th level: pin weapon

37th level: impale weapon

40th level: pin arm, headshot

42nd level: iron will

43rd level: sever arm, sever leg

45th level: impale enemy, bodyshield

SPELLS

1st circle: bless, cure light, detect evil

2nd circle: armor, detect good, turn undead

3rd circle: create food, create water, cure serious

4th circle: protection from evil, remove curse

5th circle: cure critic, dispel evil, remove poison

6th circle: cure blind, ward undead

7th circle: dispel magic

8th circle: continual light, destroy undead

9th circle: heal, holy shroud

10th circle: holy word

NOTE: Circles (where applicable) are gained at levels 6, 11, 16, 21,
26, 31, 36, 41, and 46.

See also: PALADIN, WEAPONS, SPELLCAST, MAGIC, CIRCLE, SKILLS
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:19 am

Antipaladin Evolved

SKILL_ANTI-PALADIN

The following is a list of all the skills and spells available to the
Anti-Paladin class:

SKILLS

1st level: kick, bash, mount, offense, 1h bludgeon, 1h slashing,
1h piercing, 1h misc, 2h bludgeon, 2h slashing, 2h misc
bandage, swimming, rescue

5th level: defense

10th level: meditate, quick chant, clerical spell knowledge,
sorcerous spell knowledge, spellcast generic, spellcast
teleportation, spellcast summoning, spellcast protection,
spellcast divination, spellcast invocation, spellcast
healing, mounted combat, extract weapon

12th level: parry, defensive trance

15th level: dodge, blindfighting, hitall, summon mount, unbind,
defensive formation, quickstand

17th level: defensive parameter

20th level: double attack, switch opponents, defensive stance,
overbear

22nd level: disarm, swap opponents

25th level: riposte, kneecap smash, sap

27th level: bat weapon, armor optimization

30th level: apply poison, offensive shove, defensive shove,
damage reduction

32nd level: war cry

35th level: pin weapon

37th level: impale weapon

40th level: pin arm, headshot

42nd level: iron will

43rd level: sever arm, sever leg

45th level: impale enemy, bodyshield

SPELLS

1st circle: cause light, detect good, bless

2nd circle: armor, command undead, detect evil

3rd circle: create food, create water, pain touch

4th circle: curse, curse item, protection from good

5th circle: dispel good, poison, spectral hand

6th circle: blindness, fear

7th circle: dispel magic, minor paralysis

8th circle: wither, tazriks frenzied hound

9th circle: harm, dark wrath

10th circle: unholy word, unholy aura

NOTE: Circles (where applicible) are gained at levels 6, 11, 16, 21,
26, 31, 36, 41, and 46.

See also: ANTI-PALADIN, WEAPONS, MAGIC, SPELLCAST, CIRCLE, SKILLS
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:19 am

Ranger Evolved

SKILL_RANGER

The following is a list of all skills and spells available to the
Ranger class:

SKILLS

1st level: kick, bash, rescue, mount, offense, 1h bludgeon, 1h
slashing, 1h piercing, 1h misc, 2h bludgeon, 2h
slashing, 2h misc, range specialist, archery, swimming,
bandage, forage, tame mount, wilderness sneak, woodcarving,
speak with plants

5th level: trap, defense

10th level: dual wield, meditate, quick chant, clerical spell
knowledge, sorcerous spell knowledge, spellcast
generic, spellcast invocation, spellcast
healing, spellcast teleport, spellcast summoning,
spellcast protection, spellcast divination,
spellcast nature, spellcast spirit, blindfighting,
extract weapon, quickstand

12th level: dodge, unbind

14th level: parry

15th level: surprise, awareness, defensive trance

17th level: defensive formation

20th level: double attack, track, mounted combat, overbear,
sap

22nd level: defensive parameter

25th level: defensive stance

30th level: riposte, missile snare, armor optimization

32nd level: bat weapon, pin weapon

35th level: damage reduction

40th level: pin arm, headshot, impale weapon, war cry

42nd level: sever arm, sever leg

45th level: impale enemy

SPELLS

1st circle: detect magic, vigorize light, shillelagh

2nd circle: goodberry, cure light, detect good, detect evil, sense life

3rd circle: detect invisibility, faerie fire, sticks to snakes,
vigorize serious, bless

4th circle: cure serious, faerie fog, invisibility, summon insects

5th circle: vigorize critical, protection from animals, create spring

6th circle: barkskin, dust devil, sleep

7th circle: dispel magic, strength, nature's blessing

8th circle: minor paralysis, cure critic

9th circle: call lightning, transport via plants

10th circle: pass without trace, control weather


NOTE: See HELP SPELL CIRCLE for an explanation of spell circles.

See also: RANGER, WEAPONS, SPELLCAST, CIRCLE, MAGIC, SKILLS
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:20 am

Dire Raider Evolved

SKILL_DIRE_RAIDER

The following is a list of all skills and spells available to the
Dire Raider class:

SKILLS

1st level: bash, rescue, mount, offense, 1h bludgeon, 1h
slashing, 1h piercing, 1h misc, swimming, bandage, 2h slashing,
2h bludgeon, 2h misc, archery, range specialist, woodcarving,
wilderness sneak, speak with plants, forage

5th level: trap, defense

10th level: meditate, quick chant, clerical spell knowledge, sorcerous spell
knowledge, spellcast generic, spellcast healing, spellcast summoning,
spellcast spirit, spellcast nature, spellcast divination, blindfighting,
mounted combat, dual wield, extract weapon, quickstand

12th level: dodge, unbind

14th level: parry

15th level: awareness, unbind, summon mount, howl, surprise, defensive
trance

17th level: defensive formation

20th level: double attack, track, strafe, switch opponents, overbear,
sap

22nd level: defensive parameter

25th level: defensive stance

30th level: missile snare, riposte, outflank, armor optimization

32nd level: bat weapon, pin weapon

35th level: damage reduction

40th level: pin arm, head shot, impale weapon, war cry

42nd level: sever arm, sever leg

45th level: impale enemy

SPELLS

1st circle: detect magic, vigorize light, cure light

2nd circle: sense life, create food, create water, totem darts

3rd circle: vigorize serious, command undead, bless, detect invisibility, faerie fire

4th circle: cure serious, poison, invisibility, jar the soul

5th circle: protection from animals, vigorize critic

6th circle: fear, blindness, dust devil

7th circle: barkskin, dispel magic, strength

8th circle: minor paralysis, cure critic

9th circle: hex, farsee

10th circle: pass without trace, poltergeist


NOTE: See HELP SPELL CIRCLE for an explanation of spell circles.

See also: DIRE RAIDER, WEAPONS, SPELLCAST, CIRCLE, MAGIC, SKILLS
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:20 am

Rogue Evolved

SKILL_ROGUE

The following is a list of all skills available to the Rogue class:

SKILLS

1st level: sneak, hide, steal, backstab, pick lock, mount,
offense, 1h bludgeon, 1h slashing, 1h piercing, 1h
misc, bandage, swimming, escape, dodge, defense

5th level: unbind, detect trap, awareness, evasion

10th level: disarm trap, disarm, extract weapon

12th level: quickstand

15th level: dual wield, missile snare, circle

20th level: apply poison, track, switch opponent, overbear

22nd level: sap

25th level: trip, shadow

30th level: disguise, vital strike, double attack, impale
weapon

35th level: garrote

40th level: assassinate, pin weapon, headshot

See also: ROGUE, WEAPONS, SKILLS
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:22 am

A Proposal.

The Idea: By being able to control the limits and extents of a fighters tanking ability with toggleable reflexive abilities, and combining this with formation/defensive fighting which increases their tanking ability further allows for a more dynamic group orientation.

As it stands: Right now, if you bring more invokers, you're better off. That is about it. The more damage you have the better you're going to do - for the most part. This is because tanks have a limited time usage before their spells run out and subsequently their use. The tank(s) who receive their respell-ups in combat first are the ones that survive. The ones who don't get the initial casts are the ones that die. With enough tank support classes, additional warrior need is minimal, and becomes more of a hinderance.

Different types of Groups: But if melee were to be evolved, then the More Warriors (tank classes) you have in the group the easier a zone becomes. NOT necessarily faster, but EASIER. If your tanks can last for a longer duration based on their own skills, the fights will take longer as a whole. With more warriors, you'll have less room for invokers. Once again fights will take longer, but still be safer. With tanks able to engage in combat and allow caster classes to mem/pray this also allows non damage classes to contribute more over time as well. Also, by allowing casters to once again mem/pray in combat situations, albeit a limited degree here, zone design can be more dynamic. We could possibly see more zones with fast pop times where groups are forced to slowly work their way thru. Groups could go with more debuff and support classes, and go slow and safe. Or they could loose some and stack up on more damage classes. And still we could once again have a group working the way they are now (minimal tanks with maximum area damage).

With more options to group design/layout for every zone, ALL classes save invokers, will increase in worth and power by this system.

Game Impact: Formation fighting/defensive skills and tactics will be a plus to the player OVER mobs in most cases. Just because a mob is flagged as warrior, doesn't mean the area writer has setup the mobs in the area file to follow one another, to group with one another, or to even use advanced skills and tactics with eachother. That's not to say they couldn't, but look at mage mobs now and quest spells. See my point? They can if they want. They would be able to be very creative in some fights, if they so choose.

The over all initial effect on the majority of mobs and fights could be minimal.
Joth
Sojourner
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fairfax

Postby Joth » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:51 am

I think the over all idea is great, and good for melee classes; however, from a class grouping perspective, there is still no real advantage to bring along a ranger over a warrior. Maybe give some or more of the offense skills to the Ranger/Dire class? I really like the mana idea since it is already in the game, some of the skills might take some time to code in though, but alot seems it could be implement right away. Good to see someone/people thinking outside the box, beyond just the old HIT/DAMAGE. More input to come.
belleshel
Sojourner
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Northeast

Postby belleshel » Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:08 am

Good enthusasim, but you I think you have to think much smaller. The two problems I immediately see with it:

1) Coding - What your proposing is basically a total rebuild of the combat system. Would require an enourmous amount of time from the code staff, a long balancing period, another long period of unstablity.

2) Players - People don't like drastic or sudden changes, people will come back to a mud that doesn't look anything like the mud they had been playing (combat wise).

That being said there are some intresting combat ideas posted, some I haven't seen before, some taken from other posters.
mynazzaraxxsyn
Sojourner
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:00 pm
Location: Ixarkon
Contact:

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:53 am

belleshel wrote:1) Coding - What your proposing is basically a total rebuild of the combat system. Would require an enourmous amount of time from the code staff, a long balancing period, another long period of unstablity.


Shevarash wrote:And for the record, it's silly to listen to anyone but a coder talk about how hard/feasible anything would be to code. Especially Thanuk. :)
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:38 am

what you are proposing here is in no way an upgrade to any melee class. Aside from gaining the potential for a few effects, that are drawn out and complicated to achieve, everything you propose here is a downgrade. The concept of using mana to define warriors abilities to use skills, therefore limiting our ability to use those skills, is a severe downgrade.

Basically your proposal here is making it exponentially more complicated and difficult to acheive the same results we acheive now with relative ease. Making something more complicated does not necessarily make it better. Limiting the duration and use of defensive skills is a severe handicap to any tanking class, which are now completely dependent on spells. They would gain, in your own words, an extra round or two of survival, and in exchange for that they would have duration restrictions on the use of their defensive skills.

I think some of your suggestions for skills are neat and worth looking into, but the concept of toggleable skills and limited duration of abilities like parry and shieldblock, i find to be absurd.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'
You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'
Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'
You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'
Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:41 am

Well, the fact of the matter is that players' opinions very rarely get implemented verbatim. When posting suggestions, the magnitude of your suggestion and its probability of being coded are inversely proportional =/

Fixing melee is more than just reworking hitter classes. Assuming Shevarash is delighted with this idea, just step back and imagine the scope of implementing the changes. First, all of these skills would have to be designed fully... numbers fleshed out, probabilities set, level caps determined, and so on. Then, they would have to actually be coded. Then, they'd have to be tested for functionality, to make sure the commands work as promised. Then, implemented on the testmud and balance testing would begin. The testers would have to balance one class vs. another, casters vs. melee, mobs vs. players, items vs. skill power, etc. Then, the rebalancing of defensive spells would begin, in an attempt to find a happy harmony with the new warrior defensive skills. Once all THAT is done, player spell damage would have to be looked at, and changes made to bring melee damage and spell damage in line under the new melee code. Finally, a whole assload of help files would have to be written or rewritten, to detail all of the changes.

Ok, so after ALL THAT is finished and the code is on mainmud, THEN you get to somehow cope with all of the bitching that will occur for every little reason. Understand that zones would completely halt for like two months, while everyone stood around in skellies practicing their new skills (and while bugs were worked out and design flaws fixed).

What you're looking at is a 6 to 9 month process for a full time team of paid designers and coders. For a volunteer squad like Toril's, this project would take anywhere from 15 to 20 god minutes to finish (in other words, lord only knows how long). It's an excellent system with many fine points, but unfortunately, I simply doubt it's realistic to expect Toril to rewrite the entire core of the game to adopt such a system. But yeah, who knows, maybe the coders are already working on such a project, and it will be released to mainmud next week. We really don't know, and bravo on thinking out such a complex and innovative solution :)

What we DON'T want to see happen though, is a situation where the implementation STARTS, but is never finished. Then we'd end up with a set of code like Justice, that doesn't really work right and never gets fixed up :(
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
belleshel
Sojourner
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Northeast

Postby belleshel » Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:58 am

mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:
belleshel wrote:1) Coding - What your proposing is basically a total rebuild of the combat system. Would require an enourmous amount of time from the code staff, a long balancing period, another long period of unstablity.


Shevarash wrote:And for the record, it's silly to listen to anyone but a coder talk about how hard/feasible anything would be to code. Especially Thanuk. :)


Common sense.
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:13 am

Joth wrote:I think the over all idea is great, and good for melee classes; however, from a class grouping perspective, there is still no real advantage to bring along a ranger over a warrior. Maybe give some or more of the offense skills to the Ranger/Dire class? I really like the mana idea since it is already in the game, some of the skills might take some time to code in though, but alot seems it could be implement right away. Good to see someone/people thinking outside the box, beyond just the old HIT/DAMAGE. More input to come.


In terms of tanking purposes, there should never be a reason to bring a ranger over a warrior. That is an imbalance. Please re-read the first skill suggestion 'Defensive Formation'. I had to go back and edit it as I forgot one of the main benefits of the skill. Since all fighters gain this ability, it allows any fighter to contribute equally to enhancing the defensive skills of all fighters particpating. Balance.
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:42 am

thanuk wrote:what you are proposing here is in no way an upgrade to any melee class. Aside from gaining the potential for a few effects, that are drawn out and complicated to achieve, everything you propose here is a downgrade. The concept of using mana to define warriors abilities to use skills, therefore limiting our ability to use those skills, is a severe downgrade.


Increasing a fighters tanking ability would be an upgrade. By turning all defensive skills on at the same time (at 50th level with all skills maxed), you specifically would increase your tanking ability to the level of having scales + blur + displace. I fail to see how this is a downgrade. I've proposed additional tanking abilities to go with what is current. If you effectively turn on only the skills you have now, you'd be tanking exactly the same as now. The amount of mana drain would be in balance effectively with what your gaining back naturally.

Now if you stack on extra offensive abilities to make yourself do more damage, or jack up the extra defensive abilities to be tanking better then what you could currently do, then yes your tanking abilities will suffer as you drain your mana out. You can't have it both ways.

thanuk wrote:Basically your proposal here is making it exponentially more complicated and difficult to acheive the same results we acheive now with relative ease. Making something more complicated does not necessarily make it better. Limiting the duration and use of defensive skills is a severe handicap to any tanking class, which are now completely dependent on spells. They would gain, in your own words, an extra round or two of survival, and in exchange for that they would have duration restrictions on the use of their defensive skills.


Fighters would become no more complicated then a caster class. A fighter would now be choosing what abilities to use similar to a caster choosing what spells to pray/mem and cast for particular encounters.

The system also removes the need of complete and utter dependance on caster support classes for limited duration. This duration is a variable depending on group class orientation, individual encounter, and skill settings. A fighter can't be the ultimate tank full time or they will put other classes out of business. By customizing your defensive and offensive abilities, and combining them in a defensive formation, the amount of exceptional tanking a fighter can do is extended more so. The extra round or two is in addition to the current amount of rounds, and that statement was in referrence if the fighter was not in a defensive formation, being the only tank in jot gatehouse type environment. True in terms of this situation, that's not much of a difference from now. Give yourself 4 more fighters in formation, and it becomes a difference. Add a bard or two to the mix, watch out.

thanuk wrote:I think some of your suggestions for skills are neat and worth looking into, but the concept of toggleable skills and limited duration of abilities like parry and shieldblock, i find to be absurd.


Like I said above. The duration is dependent upon what you have turned on. It is the intent of this sytem to be able to continue to tank as is current indefinitely by making Mana gained = Mana spent if only the same skills are applied. I apologize for not making that clearer in the initial posts. Furthermore, if a bard is in group singing the appropriate song, it can allow a fighter to toggle even more skills to become even more effective then now.
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:58 am

Ragorn wrote:Well, the fact of the matter is that players' opinions very rarely get implemented verbatim. When posting suggestions, the magnitude of your suggestion and its probability of being coded are inversely proportional =/


The best ideas are usually mulled over and debated by several intelligent individuals. That is my hope here.

Ragorn wrote:Fixing melee is more than just reworking hitter classes. Assuming Shevarash is delighted with this idea, just step back and imagine the scope of implementing the changes. First, all of these skills would have to be designed fully... numbers fleshed out, probabilities set, level caps determined, and so on. Then, they would have to actually be coded. Then, they'd have to be tested for functionality, to make sure the commands work as promised. Then, implemented on the testmud and balance testing would begin. The testers would have to balance one class vs. another, casters vs. melee, mobs vs. players, items vs. skill power, etc. Then, the rebalancing of defensive spells would begin, in an attempt to find a happy harmony with the new warrior defensive skills. Once all THAT is done, player spell damage would have to be looked at, and changes made to bring melee damage and spell damage in line under the new melee code. Finally, a whole assload of help files would have to be written or rewritten, to detail all of the changes.


Nod, I'm fully aware. As I'm sure you're aware that ideas can be made more solid if the are discussed and holes found beforehand.

Ragorn wrote:Ok, so after ALL THAT is finished and the code is on mainmud, THEN you get to somehow cope with all of the bitching that will occur for every little reason. Understand that zones would completely halt for like two months, while everyone stood around in skellies practicing their new skills (and while bugs were worked out and design flaws fixed).


That's a given.

Ragorn wrote:What you're looking at is a 6 to 9 month process for a full time team of paid designers and coders. For a volunteer squad like Toril's, this project would take anywhere from 15 to 20 god minutes to finish (in other words, lord only knows how long). It's an excellent system with many fine points, but unfortunately, I simply doubt it's realistic to expect Toril to rewrite the entire core of the game to adopt such a system. But yeah, who knows, maybe the coders are already working on such a project, and it will be released to mainmud next week. We really don't know, and bravo on thinking out such a complex and innovative solution :)


When I was talking with Azuth about an auction system for Soj3/Toril, I remember him thinking it was going to take him 3 months of work. He was done less then 2 weeks later. :) The best thing to do would be to leave controls in place to easily tweak the settings.

Ragorn wrote:What we DON'T want to see happen though, is a situation where the implementation STARTS, but is never finished. Then we'd end up with a set of code like Justice, that doesn't really work right and never gets fixed up :(


Agreed. This is why I originally target those individuals known for undertaking and coming thru with massive projects, and doing them well.
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:17 am

belleshel wrote:Good enthusasim, but you I think you have to think much smaller. The two problems I immediately see with it:

1) Coding - What your proposing is basically a total rebuild of the combat system. Would require an enourmous amount of time from the code staff, a long balancing period, another long period of unstablity.

No, it's not a total rebuild of the combat system. It is a series of more elaborate skills, and adding controls to existing ones. Also, Mud formation code isn't as difficult as it sounds. Relax.

belleshel wrote:2) Players - People don't like drastic or sudden changes, people will come back to a mud that doesn't look anything like the mud they had been playing (combat wise).


It's been my experience that when old players hear how something has changed, they like to log on and check it out for themselves. I doubt a more engaging game would drive players away. When Sojourn was it's most difficult, it was also at it's most popular time.

belleshel wrote:That being said there are some intresting combat ideas posted, some I haven't seen before, some taken from other posters.


If at all possible could you please follow the guidelines in the first post in this thread? Thanks. I'd be entirely more interested in hearing how this system would affect your primary class if you play a fighter type. :)
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3917
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:11 am

Ever since invokers came in, this MUD has been shifting towards fights with a ton of mobs per fight. Why? Because it had to to cope with the insane power that they brought. Coupled with liches, druids, elementalists, and every other area spell you can shake a stick at, the melee problem is deeply rooted in the fact that this game is all about spells now. Defensive, offensive, take your pick.

5 mobs used to be tackled one by one, now we take all 5 at once. Without downgrading area damage, upgrading melee won't mean much. How many leaders would rather wait for their monks to whittle through mobs one at a time when they can bring 3 different types of area damage and destroy a whole room in half the time?

Its not that melee blows, its that it blows compared to our mages.
Cordan
Sojourner
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:36 pm

Postby Cordan » Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:08 pm

Gormal wrote:Ever since invokers came in, this MUD has been shifting towards fights with a ton of mobs per fight. Why? Because it had to to cope with the insane power that they brought. Coupled with liches, druids, elementalists, and every other area spell you can shake a stick at, the melee problem is deeply rooted in the fact that this game is all about spells now. Defensive, offensive, take your pick.

5 mobs used to be tackled one by one, now we take all 5 at once. Without downgrading area damage, upgrading melee won't mean much. How many leaders would rather wait for their monks to whittle through mobs one at a time when they can bring 3 different types of area damage and destroy a whole room in half the time?

Its not that melee blows, its that it blows compared to our mages.


I think Gormal hit the nail on the head. Exp'ing in a group with a rogue, I watch how fast the mobs die. That rogue has to log, and it makes a significant effect in time killing each mob, sometimes doubling it. And it's not from loosing a person, it's from loosing a rogue. Same with rangers (though not as noticeable, but it's there).

Anyways, areas damage should come down some, and melee up some. You probably won't need much tweaking to get it right either. Maybe I'm wrong.

As for Sesexe's ideas, I like them. I'm not to sure on the usage of mana, not sure I like that.... But warriors/fighters are always changing their strategies in how they face opponents. The defensive formations workable with multiple people would be great for fights against lots of mobs. It would most likely work like bard accompany or something, as you form up, defensive skills of the tanks go up, yet the offensive skills go down. As for single mob fights, or fights where you generally only need one tank, other warriors can turn off defensive skills and go all out offense, almost to a berserker stage. But if they get switched to or hit, it hurts like hell because their defense has so many holes in it. Turning off parry or some such could give you the chance of an extra attack, because when you're not parrying, your attacking. Or turn parry on, and turn something like double attack off, so you're only hitting once per round, but with double off, you parry more, increasing D, reducing O.

I'm starting to ramble. I don't think it will go in just like Sesexe has it posted, but what ever has? I think this is a wonderful basis to start looking at a revamp of melee combat.
belleshel
Sojourner
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Northeast

Postby belleshel » Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:13 pm

Sesexe wrote:
belleshel wrote:Good enthusasim, but you I think you have to think much smaller. The two problems I immediately see with it:

1) Coding - What your proposing is basically a total rebuild of the combat system. Would require an enourmous amount of time from the code staff, a long balancing period, another long period of unstablity.

No, it's not a total rebuild of the combat system. It is a series of more elaborate skills, and adding controls to existing ones. Also, Mud formation code isn't as difficult as it sounds. Relax.


Um it's not just the actual coding, its the balancing/bug hunting. See Ragorn's post, his timeframe is about what I would have guessed. What you propose is the most radical code/balance change in the history of the mud.

Sesexe wrote:
belleshel wrote:2) Players - People don't like drastic or sudden changes, people will come back to a mud that doesn't look anything like the mud they had been playing (combat wise).


It's been my experience that when old players hear how something has changed, they like to log on and check it out for themselves. I doubt a more engaging game would drive players away. When Sojourn was it's most difficult, it was also at it's most popular time.


I guess that's were we differ, I don't see this as more engaging, I see it as more convoluted. I've played on many muds with mana systems before, and this is not the way to direct Toril.

Sesexe wrote:
belleshel wrote:That being said there are some intresting combat ideas posted, some I haven't seen before, some taken from other posters.


If at all possible could you please follow the guidelines in the first post in this thread? Thanks. I'd be entirely more interested in hearing how this system would affect your primary class if you play a fighter type. :)


I did. It would make me switch to a caster fulltime.
Cordan
Sojourner
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:36 pm

Postby Cordan » Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:34 pm

I read through them again, and these are the skills I like.

1 - Defensive Formation - Works like Bard Accompany. Defensive skills increase due to creation of defensive wall, but offense limited, thus reduced. Less attacks per round, more parries, shieldblocks, etc. Damage swings towards casters.

2 - Defensive Stance - This I really like. Turns off double attack and increases parry, dodge, shieldblock. ***

7 - Pin Weapon - Only when wearing a shield. From fighting sword/shield in SCA, you can rush in and put your shield in to their forearm and push, basically making it hard to use. Could be countered by Shove skill.

10 - Head Shot - Stunning effects only, or maybe even a very rare chance to temp blind (just for fun).

20 - Defensive Trance - I like this, but in my mind this is what meditate should be, instead of reducing spell mem/pray times. That should be "concentrate" or something.

23 - War Cry - Berserk anyone? I like this one alot, forsaking all defensive skills to go all out. Last minute ditch effort to take out a mob when the fight is going bad. ***

24 - Iron Will - At lower levels of the skill, gives the warrior the ability to communicate in some form "Hey, I'm dying over here!" At higher levels, if warrior hits negatives, and still wins fight, after the fiight is over, he can still move for 30 seconds, then slumps and can only talk for another 30 seconds, then dies.

***Toggable Reflexive Skills:
This is an absolutely wonderful idea. I love it. Gives warriors the ability to alter fighting styles. Iron Will and Defensive stance could replace this for those lazy warriors, or you could tweak it by hand using toggles. I like toggles.
Ex.
This fight is against a mob that doesn't hit hard at all, i'm forgoing several defensive skills (parry shieldblock) for offense (double attack, kick, bash, damage).
This mob hits like a damn truck, I'm gonna ditch the offense (double attack, kick, bash, damage) and take a defensive posture (parry, shieldblock, etc.)

If each skill is individually toggable, and has set effects to other skills based on skill levels, a warrior can tweak out his fighting style based on level, eq, hps, etc. Eq will now have more of an effect on fighting styles based on hps, stats, hit/dam, ac, etc.
Wobb
Sojourner
Posts: 389
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 6:01 am
Contact:

Postby Wobb » Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:56 pm

Wow!!!! Sesexe, great work as usual.

I'm thrilled with: new skills for melee classes, defensive formation idea.

Not thrilled with: all these skills relying on Mana. I think you could divy-up some of the skills, perhaps have some of them mana based, and the majority NOT mana based.

I can't comment on implementation, but Ragorn speaks a myriad of truth (wink ragorn). I think to look at this objectively, it would take a lot to implement all of this, but I don't think that should stop Toril from implementing these changes. Things could be added slowly, like starting out with Defensive formation, and then adding 2 skills from your list to each melee class, or something like that.

Great Job Sesexe! Some of the best constructive and well-thought-out feedback in this forum in A LONG TIME.

Wobb
Joth
Sojourner
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fairfax

Postby Joth » Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:33 pm

I would have to agree with Thanuk, it would make it a bit more complicated, however I think the slow progress of some of the interesting ideas such as defense formation could be added in eventually.

A more likely approach of reducing spell damage by a certain percentage, in addition to, mob hit points being reduce by that same percentage, and giving a slight increase to melee damage might do the trick.

Thanuk state something while talking to him about, getting rid of blur spell and increase defense skills of warriors. Finally enchanters would get a spell like ancestral shield but single target only. I suggest something similar to this, but it was called "undead aura" (magic resistance) and necros/lich would get the spell. I think enchanters would be hating life to give all people in group that spell, so I think necros with their pet would be better solution.

But that still doesn't really address ranger's grouping situation though. They still need a skill, or role, that will make them groupable. It could be they are the ones that do the most damage to a single target, not rogues due to the other skills that they bring along; or it could be a specialized skill like mention in other threads. I just think the Staff of this mud needs to choose a direction and go with that.

Once player classes are balance and majority have a reason to be group, then the staff could start focusing on other things like making the guilding system more robust, in addition to economic system. Or even developing player classes more by interactive skills/spells or Combos.
Ihazim
Sojourner
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ihazim » Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:16 pm

A system like stance was considered during the early months of sojourn's ressurection and later shot down. its in the news, the very first month or so.
Arafen
Sojourner
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Garner, North Carolina USA

Postby Arafen » Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:42 pm

an excellent and well thought out idea, only problem would be some muddrs dont like change ..
Plus, you would start to see more fighters because they would actually be more than just a tank
*pat on the back to sesexe*
peace
Cordan
Sojourner
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:36 pm

Postby Cordan » Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:47 pm

Arafen wrote:an excellent and well thought out idea, only problem would be some muddrs dont like change ..
Plus, you would start to see more fighters because they would actually be more than just a tank
*pat on the back to sesexe*
peace


"Without change, there is no future"
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:51 pm

Ok what about lag on skills? Do they no longer have lag? If you have headbutt toggled on can you headbutt every round and still stay lag free for rescues?

Also what are you going to do to melee damage to make a warrior even bother to toggle on offensive skills? warriors do miniscule damage currently, and you would have to be an idiot to give up any spec of tanking ability to do more damage than the 0 damage you do now.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:45 pm

thanuk wrote:Ok what about lag on skills? Do they no longer have lag? If you have headbutt toggled on can you headbutt every round and still stay lag free for rescues?


Auto-skills tog'd on would have no lag. The proficiency of the skill would dictate out often it goes off tho. It would take testing to see how often each skill should be allowed to go off. For example, I'm uncertain how unbalancing headbutt going off every round would be.

thanuk wrote:Also what are you going to do to melee damage to make a warrior even bother to toggle on offensive skills? warriors do miniscule damage currently, and you would have to be an idiot to give up any spec of tanking ability to do more damage than the 0 damage you do now.


Toggle-able skills aren't lumped into one category. It's offensives and defensives. You can turn all of one type on or off at a time, think of the tog condensed command.

The more defensives you have on (and if you are in a formation the more participating fighters add to this as well - and remember the mana cost becomes reduced with more fighters working together as well), the more bonuses your defensive skills get, and not just the toggle-able ones.

The more offensives you have on, the more bonuses they get, and not just the toggle-able ones. (Fighters will have to decide just how much bonus they want to have compared to their mana usage.) There will become two kicks. Auto-kick (the toggle-able version) and manual kick. If you have auto kick on you give bonuses to any manual kick you do (mainly increased damage and side effects - yes there is still going to need to be lag for Manual input skills - but with sufficient offensive skill bonuses from what you have turned on, the lag could be reduced.) So lets say you turn on all your offensives, that means all your impale attempts, sever arm/leg, wut not will have increased bonuses in terms of success and result. Perhaps instead of severing one leg, you sever two at once (if possible on the target) - like a skill critical, who's chances of happening increase with the higher your offensive bonus is.

These were only examples of possible ideas to increase damage output by fighters. I'd love to hear if anyone has more feasible suggestions?

Examples of Possible Combination tactics:
Sever Leg (On all legs) + Sever Arm (to all arms) = Major para
Sever Leg (all legs) + Sever Arm (all arms) + Backstab = Instant Death
Impale Enemy + Impale Weapon = Increased Critical hit percentage per Impaled Weapon attack, percentage increase stays with each impaled weapon from round to round allowing for massive single target damage. Fighters who keep impaling a mob with more and more weapons will increase damage per round as fighting progresses.
Pin Weapon + Pin Arm = Disarms the mob.
Impale Enemy + Head Shot (with piercer) = Instant Death
Cordan
Sojourner
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:36 pm

Postby Cordan » Fri Jan 02, 2004 9:00 pm

My comments are based around the fact that toggle-able skills are reflexive skills, like parry, dodge, etc. Not things like bash, kick, etc. If you toggle "Defensive Stance" or something ON, it reduces the effectiveness of offensive skills.

IMHO, I'm not sure you can get away with taking non-reflexive skills as they are now, and making them toggle-able as reflexive skills. It doesn't work for headbutt, bash, kick, etc, because it takes away your ability to use other skills.

However, if you make reflexive skills as they are now (parry, dodge, shieldblock, etc) toggle-able, and have their on/off states affect other reflexive skills and the effectiveness of non-reflexive skills, that would allow some variety to fighting styles. Then up melee damage so warriors will have a reason to go all offensive.

Following this train of thought, you could get close to sesexe's overall idea without rebuilding the entire combat system. Though, in all honesty, does anyone think it needs a revamping anyway?
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Sat Jan 03, 2004 9:52 am

Actually coding all this is trivial, and any decent coder could do it in a few evenings.

However, the time-consuming part is to consider all balance aspects, and test it and balance it.

And should mobs use those skills as well? ie, should jot gatehouse guards use a defensive formation :)
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Tasan
Sojourner
Posts: 1710
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fridley, Mn USA
Contact:

Postby Tasan » Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:25 am

Sesexe wrote:Remember those spell combination effects rumor? What if it was actually done with Melee?


Why not just stick w/ the current system, implement a few new skills to be used during combat so we're not just staring at the screen watching it fly by. Down areas across the board, up melee damage as a whole, implement a fix to archery that makes it worthwhile to use.

This system seems overly burdened with redundancy with things already possible. Fighters shouldn't be major paraing anything at will. There are plenty of ways to stop a caster from casting already in the game. Mostly I see your system as further destroying any need to keep the utility classes around. Rogues see their usefulness go through the roof, rangers/dires get nada.

I give you props for taking the time to think this all out, but if something like this were implemented, I'd delete all my fighter class chars and just play casters. If you are going to fight for eq w/ mages, you might as well be one, especially if you have to mem like they do.

T
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'

Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'

Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Sun Jan 04, 2004 2:54 am

Jegzed wrote:And should mobs use those skills as well? ie, should jot gatehouse guards use a defensive formation :)


I gather it would be up to the individual areas maker for each new zone, I guess the areas sphere would work together in deciding if anything like this should be applied to existing zones and how.

What if Jot gatehouse giants used a defensive formation?
Imagine them bodyshielding eachother, thus reducing area damage.
Imagine this causing single target damage, and melee damage to be more effective in these specific circumstances.
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Sun Jan 04, 2004 3:25 am

Tasan wrote:Why not just stick w/ the current system, implement a few new skills to be used during combat so we're not just staring at the screen watching it fly by. Down areas across the board, up melee damage as a whole, implement a fix to archery that makes it worthwhile to use.


The point of making toggable no lag skills is that it frees you up to perform other actions so you are not just watching your screen roll by b/c you gave your fighter a couple triggers. (Like now.)

This system downs areas at high levels, when areas make a difference and are part of real zoning levels, while allowing low and mid level parties to still area (not that ice storm and such are suddenly going to make a difference).

Archery is a class specific skill dealing with 2 classes in the game. As I said above, I'm not talking about that but do see a need for individual class tweaks. This would be one of them. I personally cannot say what all rangers need, but if you look at this system, it does make rangers/dires more desireable in group environments because it increases the tanking abilities of all fighters in the group. If you had 1 warrior and 3 rangers in the group, the rangers would improve the tanking skills of the warrior (and themselves.) I'm aware that this still doesn't give rangers a niche, but that's not my intent here. This is about melee as a whole, not rangers as a specific class. Therefor in this enviroment, ranger types become more desireable because they can output damage and increase the tanking ability of other fighters in the group.

Tasan wrote:This system seems overly burdened with redundancy with things already possible. Fighters shouldn't be major paraing anything at will. There are plenty of ways to stop a caster from casting already in the game. Mostly I see your system as further destroying any need to keep the utility classes around. Rogues see their usefulness go through the roof, rangers/dires get nada.


The new skills presented above aren't designed stop mobs from casting. They are designed to defend a group, tank longer and better, and to possibly kill targets faster with organized tactics.

This system can allow a fighter to tank better then they do now, for a limited time. (If they could do this nonstop, why have support classes?)

This system can allow a fighter to hit harder and more abundantly then now, for a limited time. (If they could do this nonstop, why have melee damage classes?)

This sytem can allow multiple fighters (this means Rangers, Dire Raiders, Paladins, Antipaladins, Warriors) to kill mobs faster then invokers in certain encounter types. (If we allowed it for every encounter type, why have invokers?)

I am uncertain how this system improves the usefulness of rogues above and beyond the fighter classes in this system. Could you explain?

Tasan wrote:I give you props for taking the time to think this all out, but if something like this were implemented, I'd delete all my fighter class chars and just play casters. If you are going to fight for eq w/ mages, you might as well be one, especially if you have to mem like they do.


I don't understand why you think fighters would suddenly need mage equipment in this system? Fighters don't mem in this system. They rest using a form of meditate to catch their breath (regen mana at an increased rate) and heal themselves slightly (speed up natural HP regen - think troll regen outside of combat sitting and resting). Mana in this system is a way of representing fatigue and battle wisdom. A fighter will already regenerate mana at a fast rate, allowing them to maintain many current reflexive skills in battle as is now. It's when they start chunking on more and more and more that they drain it fast. Please don't forget that defensive spells decrease mana usage per round (maintaining a need for tank support classes.)

A fighter is going to be done his 'meditating' long before casters are done mem/praying. They are catching their breath effectively. That's why their mana doesn't cap so high. This is exactly why warriors shouldn't have 500 mana or so. They need to be around 130ish at 50th. If they fight as they do now nothing's different, but if they go all out, they burn themselves out for increased abilities.
Tasan
Sojourner
Posts: 1710
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fridley, Mn USA
Contact:

Postby Tasan » Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:00 pm

Sesexe wrote:Fighters don't mem in this system. They rest using a form of meditate to catch their breath (regen mana at an increased rate) and heal themselves slightly (speed up natural HP regen - think troll regen outside of combat sitting and resting).


What do you think that is? No they don't sit there and mem spells; I was using the term as a generalization of action. By increasing a warrior's natural ability to heal after level 10 you are going to make the burden on leveling a NEW cleric even worse. Trolls have regen as a racial ability, if you want to regen that fast, play a troll. If you want this skill, make it level 30+, so that it doesn't affect the need for support at lower levels.

Sesexe wrote:The new skills presented above aren't designed stop mobs from casting. They are designed to defend a group, tank longer and better, and to possibly kill targets faster with organized tactics.


Then why are you giving abilities stun/stop casting? Maybe I just don't understand English enough to know that "...and prevents mob from casting spells above 7th circle." means mobs can't cast!

From what I saw you have 3 group dynamic protection skills, yet 25 overall? We don't need to kill things faster. We kill them plenty fast enough already. Melee is not going to be balanced with a few more slashes here and there, or the ability to para a mob so the rogue can backstab to it's heart's content.

As I said before, down area damage across the board and raise the effectiveness(h/d, dice, or pvM effectiveness, I don't care which) of melee.
No invoker is going to guard 1w because of a 15-20% reduction in area damage.

Sesexe wrote:The point of making toggable no lag skills is that it frees you up to perform other actions so you are not just watching your screen roll by b/c you gave your fighter a couple triggers. (Like now.)


Why don't you just call this warrior tanking evolved? Rangers don't have multiple triggers that do the work for them because the only thing they do is assist or afire 90% of the time. Warriors do one of two things, 2h and headbutt, or 1h and rescue/bash. Other than that they pretty much don't have anything to do. Making more reflexive skills isn't going to "free you up", it'll just add to the boredom of the screen going by. What I suggested were giving them something to actually type(gee whiz!) which at least gave them the sense they were attempting to do something other than bot. The defensive form things DO do this, but the rest....

Sesexe wrote:I personally cannot say what all rangers need, but if you look at this system, it does make rangers/dires more desireable in group environments because it increases the tanking abilities of all fighters in the group.


Wrong. Dead wrong. No one will take a ranger in this system, you'd be better off with a much lower level warrior. There is NO reason to bring a ranger in this system.

Sesexe wrote:This system can allow a fighter to hit harder and more abundantly then now, for a limited time.


Which won't make that huge of a differance. It's already been said that perm haste and the like wouldn't really affect melee at all. Also, there's no reason to keep spell damage the same AND up melee. Most of the people behind the arguments to tweak melee want spell damage downed at the same time, creating more of a balance.

Sesexe wrote:...to kill mobs faster then invokers in certain encounter types.


Yeah... yet invoker damage stays the same.... really confused on how you justify this one. If the certain situation involves dragons w/ 100% MR, then I'll give that to ya.

Sesexe wrote:I am uncertain how this system improves the usefulness of rogues above and beyond the fighter classes in this system. Could you explain?


Impale Weapon is a rogue skill. Ranger's aren't going to load up on GCD's all of a sudden so they can perform this. Rogue > Ranger. The rest of the skills that don't list rogues... Don't really make a ranger worth taking. I'd still say to myself everytime: "Well a rogue can still do equal damage, and have it's utility usefulness." In the case of "oh but rangers will add to defensive...blahblah", then they will just take a warrior/ap/paladin who gets all the exact same skills the ranger does, and can perform them better probably most of the time.

Sesexe wrote:Mana in this system is a way of representing fatigue and battle wisdom.


Yeah, I can read, and I don't agree. Battle wisdom is already represented by each and every PLAYER playing his or her class. If you are going away from botting, this is the WORST way to do it. You are hereby nerfing those of us who worked hard to learn the ways of the mud in favor of making everyone carbon copies of eachother in ability defined by toggling a few things on or off. I'd rather see a few skills implemented to allow people to diversify their personal playing, while still allowing those who've mastered their class to excel.

So by your thoughts, mana eq wouldn't affect fighters at all.... so it becomes a short time until the perfect stats to mana ratio is figured out and everyone just aims for that w/ the same race/class combo(obviously there are always people who play a class/combo for flavor not ability).

If defensive spells + more fighters decrease damage all around, aren't clerics going to more bored than a pack of dires? There still is no reason to down damage from mobs against our groups. The focus of the changes should be changing defensive spells to enhance the natural tanking abilities(due to skills) of tanks. This wouldn't require anything new, but instead would mean tweaking skills upwards and spells a tad downwards. I don't think anyone is looking for warriors to be able to tank zones w/o stone/scale/displace or something along those lines, they just don't want to see all spells drop and then hit the menu.


T
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.

Return to “T2 Gameplay Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests