Undead Vision

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Dizzin
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Undead Vision

Postby Dizzin » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:06 am

New additions/alterations to the necro class all good and whatnot. But, can liches please have undead vision fixed for them. It's been 5 months now since it was put in, and liches are still walking around seeing red shapes.

Thanks.
fotex
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Postby fotex » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:19 am

bravo on the changes, looks like spell damage is getting reined in, a bit at a time....
i'm gonna place bets on meteorswarm being changed into a target spell... :P
Eilistraee
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Postby Eilistraee » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:22 am

I've been asked to investigate, so I'll see what I can do as time permits.
Sszantiel
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Postby Sszantiel » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:10 pm

As of right now liches can see items and corpses in the darkness but mobs and players are still red shapes. this leads me to believe it's just not finished or bugged.

The room soul bind is nice but I don't ever see myself casting contagion because lich touch already does the main benefit(slowness) and lands easier.

Gonna be interesting to see what the necros decide to do now that they won't have relocate anymore when they lich. So harsh! =)

I'm just gonna pretend like this never happened. hehe

Sincerely, Relo Envy in Dobluth K'yor
Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:12 pm

Eilistraee wrote:I've been asked to investigate, so I'll see what I can do as time permits.


You have my best of wishes! :D If anyone can do it, I'm sure you can! I've heard how the code that controls that is all over the place, so Good luck!
fotex
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Postby fotex » Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:51 pm

Sszantiel wrote:...I don't ever see myself casting contagion because lich touch already does the main benefit(slowness) and lands easier.


Contagion's probably more of a necromancer spell anyway.
Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:05 pm

fotex wrote:
Sszantiel wrote:...I don't ever see myself casting contagion because lich touch already does the main benefit(slowness) and lands easier.


Contagion's probably more of a necromancer spell anyway.


Or as we Lichs say, it's a Pet spell. Sszanman being all silly-like and acting like he casts wither/ray now. As if! That's for pets!

I think this spell is great! Now I only have to tell my pets to cast one spell instead of 2! Bling! Bling! :D

Ps. Room soul bind Rox! Yum!
Sszantiel
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Postby Sszantiel » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:32 pm

Well, I've been chatting with other liches and we all agree that it is kindof strange that we have to go through such a painstaking quest just to become a new class that is balanced equally with the old class. It used to be an upgrade to lich and now that is questionable. Perhaps change the quest?

We think liches should get vampiric curse or some other class defining spell because deathpact and a couple more nukes doesn't seem worth the trouble. Our heals don't make much difference in zones. They only buy us enough time to cast another heal until we run out and die anyway. We might someday see in the dark and we don't take gas damage on smoke. We don't eat or drink but do these things offset relocate, vampiric curse, and a great cr time saver spell? It's a tough call.

The room soul bind is questionable as well because we already have 11 soul binds memmed in our otherwise useless 3rd circle.

We might make our pets cast contagion when we are fighting 1 mob or exping but probably won't mem it or have them cast it when we are fighting multiple casters. In that situation you must be full on nuking or ordering them to feeblemind or boneshatter.This depending on your silencer situation as well.

We like the push towards necromancer group friendliness but don't want to see liches become 2nd rate gimpy invokers requiring a long, tough quest.

Mr. Sszanman
gimaki
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Postby gimaki » Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:17 am

Immortals always said that the plan was to allow necromancers to be a viable alternative to liches. Until now they haven't been. And even now if god's allowed folks to unlich, I don't see any takers. It's just not the no-brainer to lich now that it used to be. Diversity is a good thing.
Shar
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Postby Shar » Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:37 am

Hey :)

Just a reminder to keep in mind that this is only phase 2 of a multi-phase project. Lichs aren't forgotten. Melee isn't forgotten :). We have not posted an ETA on the next phase because deadlines or estimates mean nothing when rl gets in the way, but we'll address the issues that need to be addressed but it will take time. This is not to say however, that lichs are the 'next phase'. That may or may not be the case. Phase 3 is still in development/design.

Thanks for positive feeback, this is great.
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD

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irta
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Postby irta » Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:42 am

gimaki wrote:Immortals always said that the plan was to allow necromancers to be a viable alternative to liches. Until now they haven't been. And even now if god's allowed folks to unlich, I don't see any takers. It's just not the no-brainer to lich now that it used to be. Diversity is a good thing.


Viable alternative is certainly a good goal, but there should be more work involved for the necro. Perhaps replace relocate with transportation of the damned (different ansi and much harder quest then relocate -- perhaps requiring an item from BC -- not all the way in but enough that earning transportation of the damned is an accomplishment and not something that's just handed to you).
gimaki
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Postby gimaki » Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:56 am

irta wrote:
gimaki wrote:Immortals always said that the plan was to allow necromancers to be a viable alternative to liches. Until now they haven't been. And even now if god's allowed folks to unlich, I don't see any takers. It's just not the no-brainer to lich now that it used to be. Diversity is a good thing.


Viable alternative is certainly a good goal, but there should be more work involved for the necro. Perhaps replace relocate with transportation of the damned (different ansi and much harder quest then relocate -- perhaps requiring an item from BC -- not all the way in but enough that earning transportation of the damned is an accomplishment and not something that's just handed to you).


Huh? it's called life walk not relocate, and it is a quest, isn't just given...*scratch*
Arilin Nydelahar
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:58 am

irta wrote:-- perhaps requiring an item from BC --


Useless comment follows!

But, if any spell required a component from BC, going along with the reward system from bc, the spell should only be about as powerful as dim door. :P
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:28 pm

3rd circle is pointless now.

Not sure why area soul bind is considered to be a powerful spell needing to be 8th circle. The only thing it does is let necro/lich raise pets or preserve a future pet corpse for longer. *scratch*

Necromancers do appear to be a viable option to liching now. I don't know any Necros that have the new quest spells, since they are new spells. Took a while before vampiric curse was figured out, and still isn't heavily known by every rolled up Necro.

Giving Necro a form of relocate, doesn't make the class, just adds a nice bonus to it. If they were given gate and lichs weren't, then yeah you'd have a definite imbalance. (This is because of pets).

Looks pretty good so far. I just wish some of the spells of the regular Necromancer line-up would be looked at. Feels like everything falls into one or two circles, leaving relatively useless ones.
fotex
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Postby fotex » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:55 am

Sszantiel wrote:We like the push towards necromancer group friendliness but don't want to see liches become 2nd rate gimpy invokers requiring a long, tough quest.


As long as invokers don't get undead pets, I think you guys still have something on them. And if you've kept up on these dg threads, they're listening and will probably dg voker damage at some point in this multiphase project 8)
Mitharx
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Postby Mitharx » Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:40 am

Yeah Fotex. I think most of the lichs I've talked to, once they were sure of the overall changes, didn't make their focus on themselves compared to other classes currently in (I did on the short-term basis, but it's pointless). Things are being worked out in phases and will be balanced in the long run. We're just checking over spell circles and making sure that there are no places we find ourselves to be so weak that the circle is nearly pointless. It's hard to know if that's the case until things are finished.

As of now, either 8th or 3rd (depending on your point of view on the spells in 8th) isn't worth much. No point in worrying about how to fix it until later when things are done or almost done.

Lichs are still cool, just not as cool. All lichs are gonna deal with the spells they got and hope for the best (it's kinda impossible not to deal with it unless you wanna play another class). In the meantime, suggestions made to where we see some potential problems, or some really cool ideas for making the class better are NOT horrible things. Maybe someone will agree with us or like ideas posted and go through with it. I know the the plans on are set on what to change and how to change it, but I'm guessing they're not set in stone.
Mitharx
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Postby Mitharx » Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:43 am

Okay, back to what this post was originally about. Thank you for fixing undead vision it's very cool and a neat toy to mess with humans.

A few things I've noticed: when you get attacked or a mob does an action, they're red shapes. If that's on purpose, cool. The important thing is we can still see what's what by looking and targeting.

The other thing is (I haven't played with this, was from nekelet's input) wraithform pets disappear from time to time. By this, I mean you can't see them in the room with you sometimes. What happened is he saw the pets, changed some eq, and then they were gone. Not sure if a combination of sense life and lich vision does more, or what is up with this one, but it seems a bit odd and I currently have no idea what could be causing it.

Anyway, thanks again. Much appreciated and useful.
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Postby Nekelet » Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:02 am

Additional info on Azerosts post.
For the most part, plants and wraithforms are not visible at night. Meaning you can't give pets individual orders, although 'order all' does work. The few times I have been able to see non-warm blooded mobs including wraithform pets has occurred after eq change, to fly mode. Not sure how long they remain visible, but a sure fire way to lose it is to remove the fly gear and replace with hp/prots. Unfortunately, just going to the wings doesn't bring back the working vision, so have been unable to test very well so far.

For ref, swapping from Wings of Griffon to shroud of blazing flames.

Hope this helps.

Oh, and Hooray on the tweaks to vision so far. Even with it slightly broken, it's still pretty sweet.

Will reserve my grumblings on necro/lich changes until the next few phases occur. :D
Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:16 pm

Just wanted to add to the bug reporting of Undead Vision:

As drow elf lich:
-Without a light source I cannot see my wraithforms in underdark.
-Using innate darkness ablity of drow, I still cannot see in the room. (Not sure if this is intended or not, but thought I'd mention it.)
Nekelet
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Postby Nekelet » Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:01 pm

In addition to plants, bugs, and wraithform, certain doors aren't visible without light source.
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Shevarash
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Mar 16, 2004 6:01 am

Thanks, will work on resolving the last couple of issues with undead vision shortly. :)

And yes, not being able to see in magical darkness is intended.
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:04 pm

It's not just wraithforms for Underdark Drow.

I was standing at fountain and Zalkenai relo'd in wearing something lit. I also had mage flame up. I got the someone message on his relo, although when I look room I see him, but when he does any actions/socials I get the someone again.

When I was walking around with two immaterial pets, one a lit ghost and the other an unlit wraith, the wraith would not show up when moving from room to room (that is, no entrance/exit/fol messages). I'd see the ghost, but the unlit wraith didn't show up unless I looked in the room.
Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:56 pm

Is this still fusted? Haven't been able to mud in the last week, was hoping for a pleasant surprise when I came back. :D

But I'm guessing Eili is still battling the code. What round are we on anyway or was there a declared TKO? :o
Nekelet
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Postby Nekelet » Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:58 pm

it's still buckin fusted.

spent a bit of time lately w/ da ebils. largely chattin to red shapes on gsay. And of course, still cant see pets at night. this can be interesting, to say the least.

It's much better than in the past. (pally, beware!) but still busted.


details...
can't glance, but can look at mob.(except undead/plant)
can't see doors, but can open if u know the door name and dir.
can't order pets individually, but can order all.
still can't order all cast 'heal undead' nekelet.
Oh, wait, that's another story :P
Eilistraee
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Postby Eilistraee » Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:02 am

Actually, I'd moved on to other things. I'll take a quick look, see if I can't work something out for you guys.
Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:17 pm

Eilistraee wrote: - Undead vision *finally* fixed?


Yes! Haven't found any wierdness yet :D

Thanks!!!
Nekelet
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Postby Nekelet » Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:22 pm

All seems fine. pets, great: plants, great: glance: works. haven't had a chance to check doors at night. am told they work tho.

great work, Eilistraee.
Eilistraee
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Postby Eilistraee » Mon Jun 07, 2004 5:00 pm

Glad to hear the long promised undead vision is finally a reality :)

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