Balance in Tanks and Races

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Vahok
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Balance in Tanks and Races

Postby Vahok » Sun Mar 14, 2004 12:44 am

Long story short, since goodies can group with evils I have been noticing something. Evil tanks are vastly overpowered compared to goodie tanks.
Innates and troll regen makes us tank like crap. Granted, one of the tanks was Gura, who we all know is a great player and has great eq, maxed skills, etc. Troll tanks can do things barb and dwarf tanks couldn't dream of. We have all heard "trolls can solo in DK until 40" or heck, look at some logs of them in battle. Goodie tanks can't solo shit, and the only logs of them is when scales drop and we get trashed.

Now, is this right? Since evils are rapidly losing their disadvantages (sun shadow/fog for ultras, can group with humans, more transport spells) why isn't something being done to balance this? This may sound like sour grapes, and frankly, it is. While I was watching evil tanks in action again, all I could think of is "My warrior would get smoked so quick in this sitution". I agree evils had it hard for a while, and that was not right. But now, it seems there is little disadvantage, but a ton of advantages to being an evil tank.

The only "disadvantage" I can think of about being a troll tank is fire damage. Well, to be blunt, that's easy to defend against. With ghealing, silencing, bashing, prot eq, etc the extra damage they receive isn't an equal trade off.

Now this isn't a cry to downgrade evils or upgrade goodies. But I really think a happy balance needs to be looked at. If trolls are to keep the regen and fire damage, I can deal with that. But upgrade barb hps, or make dwaves have better spell saves, or something like that. We are always trying to "balance" the mud, but how come racial problems aren't being fixed? We know yuan-ti have some problems, same with ogre tanks.

So, does anyone out there have some ideas on how to fix this? I think it is a major issue that seems to be ignored because we all don't want to start a "good vs evil" thread. I'm not picking on the evils, if I played a warrior there I'd sure as hell play a troll too. The sides are mixing more then ever, so let's try and mix up the races we play with classes.

Shrug, just my two cents.
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Postby Alomlim » Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:42 am

There may be something to what you say. But I wouldn't pooh pooh the fire damage as much as you do, it totally sucks.

Here's something you won't see happen to a lvl 50 goodie tank, but I've seen happen to lvl 50 trolls:

-You're doing XP in DS with a healer/stoner. You miss a bash on a *young druid*, and in the next few round his one spell (fire seeds) burninates you to dead.

-You're casually smooshing Jot with a big group and you are one of 4 tanks, when 2 jarls combine to pull off a round in which 2 clouds go off. You and your 2 troll tank buddies all are burninated to dead, and the duergar is left standing.

I'm sure it's been done lots, but I can't imagine the pain of, say, Thorn fight with troll tanks.

Just wanted to share some anectodes to point out, it's not all fun and games as a troll, even though they universally wear their PFF and spellsave.
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Postby oteb » Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:09 am

I have been to very same zone group as Vahok. Honestly i was speechless. Troll tanks were pulling stuns my 1k hp dwarf with ac way below -100 couldnt even dream of. I ve seen Gura tank like 10 demons staying at excelent forever and ever. During whole course of zone he didnt even come close to dying to clouds even when we were fighting numerous mage classed mobs. I think main drawback of trolls ig eating clouds is no longer as valid as it used to be since mobs seem to prefer piddly chanater prism than voker clouds (/personal pet peave).
Pretty much the only place on mud i know where i would take barbarian tank over troll is dragon zonelet in muspel. IMO balance of goodie and evil tanks is way off. Not sure if its a matter of super agility or better innate svpetri.. but it needs to be looked at. Besides nobody is forcing evils to use just burninating troll tanks right? They can use duergar (which are quite simmilar to dwarves i belive) but somehow nobody at they right mind is doing it.
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Postby Dizzin » Sun Mar 14, 2004 8:46 am

Not gonna comment on trolls vs. goodies, but..

Using Gura as your primary evidence that trolls are overpowered is the same as saying that all druids are overpowered from just watching Lilithelle. Gura is easily the premiere Evilrace tank in the game right now, and probably best in the game as is. Will happen if you walk around near 1k unvitted, -150 ac, a shload of saves, and wielding a tia scepter. :P

And as for the tanking a bunch of mobs and not getting hurt and not taking "fire damage while fighting mage mobs"...

1. The group had 2 displacers, a scaler, 3 clerics, and 2 ghealers, along with a bard who liked to sing heal.. I wonder why he didn't seem to drop much. :P

2. We ate all of what, 2 clouds the entire zone, mostly b/c mobs never had a chance to get a spell off (Thank you Garrote. Rogues cant reach the hands to disarm a demon, but hey, we can whip a thin wire around their necks, stick a knee in their backs and keep them from casting.. riiiiiight.). And I saw the OTHER troll tank there get absolutely fried from a cloud and 1 fire breath.

So maybe you goodies should get more experience with troll tanks in zones before you start sounding the alarm. Proper sampling and all that.
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Postby Vahok » Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:11 pm

Please Dizzin...

Explain to me the dracolich fight with one tank, no enchanter...

If you can, I'll except your response. And don't pull the "get more experience with evil tanks". I have enough experience with the subject. This isn't my first time grouping with evils, and I have played an evilrace warrior in previous wipes and on different muds.

Heck, I'll pull my warrior out and let you see how quickly I'd get trashed in the same situtions. So maybe you should play a goodie tank, and tell me how fair it is. And my warrior has -100 AC, prots and the SPOB axe. But if you think I could go into the dracolich fight as the solo tank with no enchanter, you're nuts.

And this isn't just the fact Gura is able to do things other warriors can't. Of course one of the prime tanks on the mud should be able to handle themselves. I'm not disagreeing with that fact. Troll warriors can solo things other races can't dream of. Ogre warriors have beastly damage and hps (I know the size hurts them in return, agility and dodge). Duergars, yuan-ti, drow have innates. So can someone explain to me how evilrace have their cake, and can eat it too? If we are looking for balance in the mud and among players, this is a problem which needs to be looked at. Either upgrade the goodies, or downgrade the evil ones. Because as it stands right now, there isn't balance.
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Postby Gurns » Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:09 pm

Dizzin wrote:Using Gura as your primary evidence that trolls are overpowered is the same as saying that all druids are overpowered from just watching Lilithelle. Gura is easily the premiere Evilrace tank in the game right now, and probably best in the game as is.

I would argue that that's exactly who you have to judge on. The best shows you what the race/class can really do.

Longer thoughts on this at http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org:8080/php ... hp?t=13391
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Postby Dizzin » Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:34 pm

Vahok wrote:Please Dizzin...

Explain to me the dracolich fight with one tank, no enchanter...


Easily. The lich lord was already dead. We had 2 displacers, still had stones, you tendrilled so you had rainbowed/slowed what was in the room. We had a bard singing heal. We still had 2 ghealers, ghealing for what they were worth. The invoker was poofing coldshield so dracobitch was continuously spelling up. And there were 2 clerics still going, including Sservis who is also one of the best clerics in the game.

Vahok wrote:And don't pull the "get more experience with evil tanks". I have enough experience with the subject. This isn't my first time grouping with evils, and I have played an evilrace warrior in previous wipes and on different muds.


Vahok, I play this mud WAY too much as various chars, and haven't ONCE grouped with you before Saturday, nor even claired an evil group where you were a member. So dont try to tell me that you have properly experienced life with evilraces. And previous wipes mean nothing at all when compared to this one. And uhh, wtf does playing an evilrace warrior on another mud have anything to do with Torilmud...? :P

Vahok wrote:So can someone explain to me how evilrace have their cake, and can eat it too? If we are looking for balance in the mud and among players, this is a problem which needs to be looked at. Either upgrade the goodies, or downgrade the evil ones. Because as it stands right now, there isn't balance.


Well, I've been told by the staff that I have no business even assuming to know what balance is... but I'll give you *my* perspective.

I used to look at evils vs goodies in a similar way. "Why is it that goodie mages are superior AND they have so many choices between races and classes?" But now, I look at it like this. Evils have a much more limited choice amongst races for different classes. We have only 1 race for bards, only 1 for illus, only 2 for elementalist, only 1 for ranger, err raider! Only thing we have more choice for is necro and shaman. But anywho, to compensate for this lack of variety, Evilraces are *slightly* superior in 1 or 2 aspects. Melee is just one of those aspects. Duergar rogues are best in game, except for the ultravision *cough*, and troll warriors are best in game.

However saying all that, perhaps it wasn't a good idea to have given trolls that bonus to avoid crits that was given to ALL high agility races way back at the beginning of the wipe. Just made the strongest tanks stronger.

Oh, and maybe just dont let evils group with humans again! That'd be nice.. And then you goodies would maybe not ranger so much.
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Postby Pril » Sun Mar 14, 2004 8:56 pm

This is just silly! Look i've been in evil groups as alts that have spanked on the first gate in jot. And i've been in some where the people have rocked the zones. The point is no matter how good you make a race potentially it'll still suck if the player sucks. Yeah Gura can probably take on any goodie or evil tank in the game and not flinch. BUt Vahok can porbably take on most troll tanks and not flinch himself. The fact stands that it's not the character being played it's the player that's gonna make or break him.

Pril -=2cents=-
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Postby Stamm » Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:15 pm

Hmmm.
I have 990 hps, !spells. I have -150 ac. I have excellent saves.

I can tank well, but when I am tanking too many mobs, or my spells drop I fall like anybody else.

I just don't see Gura being that much different.

The difference I see between trolls and dwarves (or inferior barbarians I guess) is that trolls can solo xp, and do stuff on their own.

A goodie warrior can't solo anything.
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Postby Vahok » Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:31 pm

However saying all that, perhaps it wasn't a good idea to have given trolls that bonus to avoid crits that was given to ALL high agility races way back at the beginning of the wipe. Just made the strongest tanks stronger.

That is my point.

P.S. Just because you claim something such as "I've never seen you in an evil group, so your point is shit" doesn't make it so. I've probably grouped for major zones about 5 times. I have the ability to speak with other players/guildies about different tanking ideas. And I have done the DK exp as alts enough to have a informed opinion. So before you jump all over me, dismiss my opinion as a lack of knowledge, check your own facts first.
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Postby Stamm » Mon Mar 15, 2004 12:58 pm

Yeah, troll agility is a mystery.

I don't understand why they are, stats wise, the best parts of elves and dwarves. (Well, slightly less agile than an elf, stronger and more hardy than a dwarf).

If sometime stats have a significant effect on tanking (apart from agi for ac/crits) then agi and str will be the important stats.

Dwarves/barbs/ogres have great str, but not so good agi.

Cute little halfers/gnomes/elves/yuan-ti are the reverse.

Other races come somewhere in the middle.

Trolls get the best of both worlds.
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Postby Sesexe » Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:11 pm

Trolls aren't the only race that gets the best of both worlds and have a very limited class selection. The other is half-elf. As I believe Miax stated, this is why they aren't allowed to be rogues.

Maybe instead of campaigning to remove attractions of the game in this time of dwindling player bases, you should go the other way by suggesting additions. If Half-Elfs could be rogues, they'd probably be one of the best in the game, no? (Elf agi/dex/int + human str/con/wis). Please don't tell me you wish for all races to have near troll agi? Why even have races then. Let's all be humans and remove all those extra classes so there is only 4. We'll put in remorting as well. Then we'll name the mud Medievia.

It also helps a lot if those who choose to dissect the mud, piece by piece, that they take the time to include as many additional factors into consideration, mainly those beyond their own noses and how it affects them, when discussing such things. Simple jealousy of another players character's ability and equipment, doesn't appear to be a good reason to start, or add to, a thread discussion. And honestly, that's all this thread appears to be.

Wouldn't downgrading trolls be in a way similar to the downgrading of Tia eq? Killing a time honored attraction of the mud that so far hasn't gone over well with anyone, no?
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Postby Gura » Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:51 pm

trolls are not stronger than dwarves. ty have a nice day.
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Postby oteb » Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:54 pm

No sesexe its not about being jealous. More like balance. Evils were once meant to be harder to play...Trolls were dying to clouds but mobs cast prism now. Evils were lacking transport but got wormhole which is even better than well. They couldnt see in daylight now almost every mage class has spells fixing it. Snakes lacked hps but now there are like what 75hp tail items? (more than any combo of earrings/leggings/boots in one items thats not even quest eq). And trolls still dwarf any other tank race in game, drows still got godlike int snakes now have godlike wis i hear etc.
And dizzin plz dont say that me and vahok lack good sample of troll tanking we are both experienced players who have seen the best of goodrace tanks in almost all zones. And honestly none of them can come close to troll tanking we witnessed in MD. Each and every goodie tank would get smooshed by the sh**load of demons pit fiend summoned. and gura was tanking it rarely going below excelent.
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Postby Gura » Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:06 pm

So what if the game is changing to make evils an easier option? I mean it's just gonna help the pbase as a whole if a newbie can survive as an evil anyway and as a whole evils are still much harder to play and succeed at. wow snakes got a 75hp tail item which can also be worn as a ring by anyone in the game. but lets see. 2 earrings 15hp each + 15hp leggings + 20hp boots is a grand total of....65hps. 65hps not including the saves and prots u get from all those items. Not a big deal imo. Personally I'd drop 10hp for a few saves and prots. Wow...we got wormhole. We need a mass transit form of some kind to do tiamat. Is it such a big deal? Nope I hate to break it to you it isn't. So now, drows have godlike int wow...they can't be elementalists or illusionists...unlike their grey elf counterparts and wait uh oh...yuan's have godlike wis....if you can make it out of the hometown and even still i think i'd take a duergar cleric for the con and the ability to wear earrings, leggings and boots. Any grey elf could have tanked as well as I did in MD. All it takes is displace. If you wanna complain about my tanking, ask for them to downgrade the most powerful prep spell in the game. Yes i rant, yes my typing sux, yes i dont write well but i think you get my point here.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:23 pm

Well, i agree with the statement that there are far fewer drawbacks to the evil races. that much is apparent. the hardships they were given originally have prettmuch been removed. mind you the fact that dayblind still affects you if you're not a mage, or not grouped with a class that can cast it is there, as well as hometowns and the surrounding areas being significantly more lethal than the goodie towns. otherwise, there isn't much difference as far as i can tell.

i've played an orc, a duergar, and a troll here. none seemed THAT difficult after there were a few higher level players to help with those nasty CR's. anyway, i won't even pretend to know the answer to this situation, or what this trend may bring, but at any rate it will be interesting.
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Postby gimaki » Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:39 pm

It makes no sense at all arguing about tank_race merits until the melee-combat system is fixed first. Lets see how things play out first.

And yes the strengths of some races will increase even more if skills become more important (as they should), and spells less important (as they should). But lets worry about crossing that minor bridge after we get over the big one...
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Postby oteb » Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:57 pm

Yeah maybe elf would tank just as well.. but maybe not. I Have seen ferdelon (level 50 grey warrior) tank that fight and it wasnt as pretty even tho there were much less demons to tank. Besides grey warriors are like hmm 250? hps below trolls?
Maybe trolls have better natural svpetri? *Shrug* either way imo its a balance issue and should be looked at and evaluated.
And i would much rather see goodies have access to troll like tanks (githzerais maybe) than trolls getting nerfed.
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Postby Gura » Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:12 pm

uh i do wear -9svpet oteb
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Postby Vahok » Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:07 pm

Minor points...

1. Grey elves can't be illusionists. I would agree however that drow seem to fit the mold to be illusionists. But that would hurt snakes, so that is a touchy subject. But yeah, I think evils should have more races, or more classes added to exsisting races for flavour.

2. Equipment and ability have nothing to do with the point of this thread.
The point is to try and achieve balance. And I'm not even gonna bother responding to the comment how trolls are a time honoured attraction and changing them (notice the lack of the word downgrade) would be like downing Tia eq. Monks were a time honoured attraction..how are they these days? And Tia eq and trolls isn't even in the same ballpark. Shit, it isn't the same sport. I have the ability to tank. I have the eq to tank. But my tank can't do what a troll can do. It's not even close. Period. Simple?

3. Evils orginally had advantages because life was damn tough for them. Life is very much easier now for them. So wouldn't logic tell you either goodies need some loving (innates, better modifiers, etc.) or evils need some taken away? (which as we can see, even the thought of downgrades gets everyone's panties in a bunch, so I assume upping the goods would be a better idea)

4. People are using the excuse "goodies have so much choice in classes and races". Not a valid excuse. If you have 4 different economy cars and one Ferrari to choose from, whatcha gonna pick? There are six different choices of evil race tanks...how come the vast majority are trolls? Isn't that strange...darn, can't find my sarcasm button.

5. I'm not whining about downgrading trolls. I'd just like for some balance. If the melee changes help goodie tanks (and other non-troll tanks) start to come close to the tanking ability of trolls, great! If trolls are meant to be the best tanks, great! However, the gap as it stands is a mile...let's bring it a touch closer. I'd settle for a couple of feet.
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Postby Sszantiel » Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:16 am

You guys are going a little overboard after viewing just one zone. It doesn't matter how many times you saw a goodie tank die. What matters most is how the tank was supported with spells and eq and skill of the players in the group. Mebbe even a little random chance.. You guys are judging this based on this single occasion, this is made obvious by the fact that you have never posted about it until now. Settle down. I've seen many many good troll warriors get smited mightily in those fights. Do the zone with trolls a few more times and if the fights go exactly the same then call us! =)

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Postby Sszantiel » Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:32 am

You guys are going a little overboard after viewing just one zone. It doesn't matter how many times you saw a goodie tank die. What matters most is how the tank was supported with spells and eq and skill of the players in the group. Mebbe even a little random chance.. You guys are judging this based on this single occasion, this is made obvious by the fact that you have never posted about it until now. Settle down. I've seen many many good troll warriors get smited mightily in those fights. Do the zone with trolls a few more times and if the fights go exactly the same then call us! =)

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Postby Yasden » Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:36 am

Like there's a lot of evils even playing.
Like there's a lot of troll warriors.
Like there's a lot of *good* troll tanks.

*smirk*

I don't understand why we're arguing about the agility and regen of trolls. The evil playerbase is so small and we zone so little, and you guys are just trying to stomp on whatever little skill we do have left. :P

Deathmagnet - missing all the old crew

P.S. I do agree that some of the other racial warrior classes could use some sort of lovin'. :P
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Postby Kegor » Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:44 am

Like Dizzin said, you guys are using what you have seen Gura do as your example. I will testify that his eq and player skills are beyond exception to any other warrior on the mud. But, I would have to agree that trolls are the best tank in the game. Overpowered? I wouldn't say so, even if all I have ever know well is evils. There have been a few other highly successful tanks for evils. Gromikazer, to name the most famous of the few duergar main tanks there have ever been. With the choice top end eq for thier race, I would have to say that duergar can tank just as well as trolls. Also, like others have said above, the fire damage on trolls is insane. I have a troll of my own that does not happen to have uber duber eq, and it gets pwned by fire from time to time whenever healers are slacking or he takes one too many clouds. Before I was smart enough to get spell save eq, a sinlge cloud had about a 50/50 shot at killing me at 700+ hp. Is the fire handicap and the occasional freak fire death in a zone worth the regen which makes doing exp and leveling (not zoning) easier? You bet. I cannot comment really on how good or sucky goodie tanks are, but I would imagine that duergar and dwarves would be very similar (if not identical), which would negate the "trolls tank better" argument from what I have seen (in my opinion), if dwarves and duergar are in fact as similar as I believe them to be. Barbarians however are a mystery to me as to thier comparision to evil tanks. Part troll and part ogre? I don't know.
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Postby Gura » Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:46 am

can we stop mentioning me before i get downgraded? 8)
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:53 am

Er... uh... don't mind me...

*whistle*
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Postby Kegor » Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:53 am

Oh yeah, and downgrad ogres. They are way overpowered! A thousand plus pounds of pure awesome tanking and deadly warrior melee! All fear and scream downgrade!
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Postby Wobb » Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:07 am

haha!

I'm currently leveling up a dwarf warrior, give me a few weeks and I'll tell you exactly how they compare. So far, the dwarf seems to do just as well (sometimes better) but he doesn't regen as fast.

I'm looking SO FORWARD to no fire damage in zones. Gura has the best gear in the game I've seen on a troll next to Turg. You could have replaced "gura" with the name "kurz" in this whole post and it would have read the same (Kurz was a barb warrior few wipes ago fyi). Evils are fine, goodies are fine. I dont see any shortage of zoning on the goodie side because the tanks suck :P

Yes, wait till melee and (EQ changes) are finished before looking at this again.

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Postby Sesexe » Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:56 pm

Vahok wrote:4. People are using the excuse "goodies have so much choice in classes and races". Not a valid excuse. If you have 4 different economy cars and one Ferrari to choose from, whatcha gonna pick? There are six different choices of evil race tanks...how come the vast majority are trolls? Isn't that strange...darn, can't find my sarcasm button.

5. I'm not whining about downgrading trolls. I'd just like for some balance. If the melee changes help goodie tanks (and other non-troll tanks) start to come close to the tanking ability of trolls, great! If trolls are meant to be the best tanks, great! However, the gap as it stands is a mile...let's bring it a touch closer. I'd settle for a couple of feet.


How many tanks do GOODie groups normally run with?
How many GOODie tanks are online for a GOODie to choose from on average?
How many EVIL tanks are online for EVILs to choose from on average?
How many different types of tank classes do GOODies have?
How many different types of tank classes do EVILs have?
How many players are online for GOODies to choose from for groups on average?
How many EVIL players are online for evils to chose from for groups on average?
How many NEUTRAL players are online on average?
How many regular playing NEUTRAL characters are normally NOT already zoning with GOODies when EVILs try and zone?

Daily numbers speak for themselves. GOODies have more, EVILs have less. Therefor more punch is needed for those with less for what they do have.

Just because the classes are there, doesn't mean the players are.

*shrug*

Also, if evils ar so easy now and troll warriors so much better, how come all the normal GOODie warriors haven't pleveled up troll warriors to zone with instead? It would take someone, what, a week to plevel one up?
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Postby Stamm » Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:24 pm

So you are saying that trolls are overpowered Sesexe? And you guys deserve trolls because you don't have the same playerbase as goodies? And you're saying it's unfair that neutrals prefer goodies to evils?
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Postby Stamm » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:02 pm

I asked the Gods to tell me how many of each 'side' were online, and then discounted anybody under level 30.

Goods - 38 (who good already includes neutrals)
Evils - 21 (who evil does not include neutrals)
Neutrals - 13

So. Goodies have 25, evils have 21.

Hardly the massive difference that evils whine so much about.

So I maintain that -

Daily numbers speak for themselves. GOODies have more, EVILs have less. Therefor more punch is needed for those with less for what they do have.


Is rubbish, because

1 - There is not a vast difference between goodie and evil numbers.
2 - Even if there was, I do not accept that having less of a playerbase is any excuse for upgrades/being overpowered. The playerbase is lower than it was 3 weeks ago, can my dwarf get regen please?

I am not saying that trolls are overpowered, don't misread me. I'm not saying that they aren't. I'm just against using the lack of playerbase as an arguement.

I will say that it is now easier to be an evil than it ever has been, and that evil racial stats have not changed.

I will say that statistically trolls are far and beyond the best tank race - but those statistics don't matter a great deal.... for now.
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:13 pm

Stamm wrote:So you are saying that trolls are overpowered Sesexe? And you guys deserve trolls because you don't have the same playerbase as goodies? And you're saying it's unfair that neutrals prefer goodies to evils?


No I'm not saying that. More powerful perhaps, but not overpowered. More powerful because they need to be because of limitations which also lead to increased difficulty because of those limitations.

Now that I've said that Stamm, should we now look over every single part of the game to compare it to every other part and note any imbalance (no matter how large or small just because they aren't completely the same)? Should we start with gnome/halfling tanks and their ability to not be bashed at all in most zones? If all races don't have this ability, then it is an imbalance, right? Should we give that to all races, or remove it entirely like you want with stun on spells? Is this your intent? Would Toril be a better place if were all the same, with the same stats and same classes and spells? Are you saying you want Toril to be Medievia?

I never said the word deserve either. I'm saying they are appropriate to the situation they were designed for. When zoning as goodie, I've never seen a problem getting enough tankage to zone as I see constantly when playing Evil.

I never said unfair either. I simply pointed to facts within the game and let them speank for themselves.

Trolls being good tanks isn't something new, is it Stamm? They didn't get some kind of upgrade we didn't know about within the last week did they? Haven't they been the exact same thing for the last 10 years? Is Goodies being able to group with Evils SOMETHING NEW? I thought there was Outcasting on Toril1? Isn't that the same thing? Did we hear about how uber troll tanks are then and how they need to be downed then? Why is this all instead happening after a few folks saw Gura get lucky in MD? If this isn't pure jealousy over Gura, then why do people in this thread want him to be the basis for the comparison? I don't understand that then. What other reason could it be? Why didn't they (or you?) want to instead compare average highlevel tanks of different races? The top of the line tank as a basis? And here is your car analogy Vahok, So should the federal government should use Lamborghinis and Ferrari's as the basis for emissions tests, speed limits, etc? Can everyone afford a car like that, or Gura's eq?

If mobs are casting prism more then cloud, then there lies the issue. If the big drawback of troll tanking has been reduced, then it needs to be put back. Maybe we should see some suggestions to add a fire attack(s) to prism? or make is so mobs prism and cloud 50/50 chance one or the other?
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:19 pm

Stamm wrote:I asked the Gods to tell me how many of each 'side' were online, and then discounted anybody under level 30.


One part of the day? Why not ask them during prime time as well? Why did you discount under 30? They could be alts. Like wanting to only use Gura, you're sampling a very small portion, so it is therefor inaccurate.

Does your sample include the different parts of the day? Of the week? Of the year? Does your sample include Saturday times? Sundays? Fridays?

So you asked the gods to give you a number from one part of one minute, of one day, of one week of the year. Well whoopie fucking do.

I said average. Not one time shot.
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Postby Stamm » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:21 pm

There are problems getting tanks for zones as a goodie, you either end up with paladins or antipaladins (none of whom dress like tanks) or end up with a warrior dressed as a hitter.

There are not a huge amount of 'good' goodie tanks around.

"More powerful perhaps, but not overpowered. More powerful because they need to be because of limitations which also lead to increased difficulty because of those limitations. "

What limitations?

You guys don't get paladins or rangers, but you do get anti-paladins, and you do get dire raiders (they tank significantly better than rangers)
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Postby Gura » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:38 pm

dires are the exact same as rangers since they got their mounted combat downgraded.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:33 am

Vahok wrote:and I have played an evilrace warrior in previous wipes and on different muds.


Duac wrote:< 1029h/1450H 110v/138V Pos: standing >
< T: Largas TP: sta TC: few wounds E: someone EP: sta EC: small wounds>
-=[Your powerful slash hits a barbarian fisherman.]=-
A Dwarf's disguise falls apart!
You score a CRITICAL HIT!!!!!
-=[Your slash hits A Dwarf very hard.]=-
-=[Your powerful slash hits A Dwarf.]=-
Your Doombringer sword of chaos blurs as it calls upon the elements of lightning, fire, and ice to strike A Dwarf.
The lightning bolt hits A Dwarf with full impact.
You throw a fireball at A Dwarf and have the satisfaction of seeing him enveloped in flames.
Your blast of cold strikes A Dwarf dead on, who shudders from the pain.
Your Doombringer sword of chaos blurs as it strikes A Dwarf.
-=[Your powerful slash hits A Dwarf.]=-
-=[Your powerful slash hits A Dwarf.]=-
-=[Your powerful slash hits A Dwarf.]=-
You miss A Dwarf.
-=[Your powerful slash hits A Dwarf hard.]=-
-=[Your powerful slash hits A Dwarf hard.]=-
-=[Your slash hits A Dwarf hard.]=-
Your Doombringer sword of chaos blurs as it calls upon the elements of lightning, fire, and ice to strike A Dwarf.
The lightning bolt hits A Dwarf with full impact.
You throw a fireball at A Dwarf and have the satisfaction of seeing him enveloped in flames.
Your blast of cold strikes A Dwarf dead on, who shudders from the pain.
Your Doombringer sword of chaos blurs as it strikes A Dwarf.
-=[Your powerful slash hits A Dwarf very hard.]=-
-=[Your powerful slash hits A Dwarf very hard.]=-
-=[Your powerful slash seriously wounds A Dwarf.]=-
-=[Your powerful slash seriously wounds A Dwarf.]=-
You score a CRITICAL HIT!!!!!
A Dwarf seems to be blinded!
You hit A Dwarf in the face!

-=[Your slash nearly slaughters A Dwarf.]=-

< 1029h/1450H 110v/138V Pos: standing >
< T: Largas TP: sta TC: few wounds E: someone EP: sta EC: awful>

*MMM M^M*
+****M M*****
*+***** *******
**+***** ********
**+***** ********
**+*****@********
M*++++** *******
MMMM*+^** *****
PMMM+***** ****
MM*+***** **
++++++++
The Majestic Utan River
Obvious exits: -N -E -S -W
A Dwarf (large)(F) stands in mid-air here, fighting YOU!

< 1029h/1450H 110v/138V Pos: standing >
< T: Largas TP: sta TC: few wounds E: someone EP: sta EC: awful> sweeping fisherman

You deflect A Dwarf's blow and strike back at him!
-=[Your fine slash enshrouds A Dwarf in a mist of blood.]=-
You deflect A Dwarf's blow and strike back at him!
-=[Your fine slash beats the crap out of A Dwarf.]=-
A Dwarf attempts to flee.
A Dwarf tries to flee, but can't make it out of here!

< 1029h/1450H 110v/138V Pos: standing >
< T: Largas TP: sta TC: few wounds E: someone EP: sta EC: awful>
You feign and sweep downward slashing A Dwarf at the back of the knee.
A Dwarf is dead! R.I.P.
You receive your share of experience.
You just gained 1.00 frags!
You feel the bloodlust in your heart as you hear the death cry of A Dwarf.
You feel a deep sense of satisfaction from somewhere...
A Dwarf stops following A Gnome.


OMG it's JUST like it is here!
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"

Gura: ..btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil.
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Postby Pril » Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:14 pm

Sesexe wrote:Haven't they been the exact same thing for the last 10 years? Is Goodies being able to group with Evils SOMETHING NEW? I thought there was Outcasting on Toril1? Isn't that the same thing?


No Sesexe it's not the same and it is new. You can't possibly compare todays situation to Toril1. On toril one paladins, for example, couldn't group with any evils aligned person but on the other hand a mounted paladin was a MUCH better tank than a warrior. And outcasts could group with evils but they lost advantages of grouping with paladins/being in WD. So it's not the same as Toril1. And Trolls haven't been the same for the last 10 years because in the last 10 years they haven't been able to group with over half the mud.

Sesexe wrote:If this isn't pure jealousy over Gura, then why do people in this thread want him to be the basis for the comparison? I don't understand that then.


Gurns addressed this already. We use Gura, sorry for dragging ya back in Gura, as a comparison because she is the best and shows what a dedicated troll warrior is capable off. Same reason as we have Stamm and Vahok arguing most of this and not some average joe shmo who can't tank worth a shit even if he had all tia eq/all best eq.
************************************************************
Personally i could care less if trolls are better tanks than barbs or dwarves or whoever but the fact remains that not all IS the same.

pril
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Postby Sesexe » Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:50 pm

Pril wrote:No Sesexe it's not the same and it is new. You can't possibly compare todays situation to Toril1. On toril one paladins, for example, couldn't group with any evils aligned person but on the other hand a mounted paladin was a MUCH better tank than a warrior. And outcasts could group with evils but they lost advantages of grouping with paladins/being in WD. So it's not the same as Toril1. And Trolls haven't been the same for the last 10 years because in the last 10 years they haven't been able to group with over half the mud.

Ok, why are you talking about paladins and their former, yes former, grouping restrictions when we are talking about troll warriors? Ok so paladins had it rough before, now they don't. They can now group with whoever, and trolls can group with relatively the same amount of classes/races they could with the outcast system of Toril 1. What's your point? If your point is paladins and rangers have more selections of groups now then before, then I aggree, but I fail to see what relevance that point has in this disuccsion. And so Ok paladins with mounted combat are even better then before. Omg Pril, I'm arguing that troll warriors haven't changed, and you're pointing out how much more powerful paladins have become. Um.. ok?

"And Trolls haven't been the same for the last 10 years because in the last 10 years they haven't been able to group with over half the mud."

How is this any different at all from the Outcast system when talking in regards to its' effect on a Troll Warrior and who they can and cannot group with? The outcast system didn't limit troll warriors, it limited the outcasts! Back then, a troll could group with any alignment outcast of any race, now they have to be Nuetral or Evil Human. With the current neutral system in place, Goodies have more options compared to conditions under the former Outcast System, while evils have less. Outcasting prevented a Goodies from grouping with certain classes once they were outcasted, so not everyone wanted to do it. If you compare how trolls could group with gnomes/halflings/elves/etc of any alignment before, and now can only group with nuetral/evil humans, I'd say they are more limited under the Nuetral system then they were under the Outcast system. In fact, the very evidence that they could group with any race of any alignment (minus palys and rangers - just like now) as long as they were outcast disproves your point about how they coudn't group with over half the mud. I also seriously doubt that who neutral = half the goodie population.

Now. When I asked if Troll Warriors have changed in the last 10 years, I mean specifically: have their racial abilities changed.
Did their regen rate change?
Did their hit dice go up?
Did the amount of damage they take from fire attacks change?
Did their innate agility change?
Did Troll Warriors receive any kind of unique enhancement beyond any other race warrior in the game since they were put in?

What did change:
1) Warriors changed, which affected all races at the same time and equally.
2) Mobs cast prism more then incendiary cloud, which reduced the main pentalty and drawback of being a troll warrior.

There lies the problem and solution. Mobs prism now instead of clouding or inferno. Fire damage from mobs needs to be brought back into the game to reinstate the main penalty of being a troll warrior.


Pril wrote:Gurns addressed this already. We use Gura, sorry for dragging ya back in Gura, as a comparison because she is the best and shows what a dedicated troll warrior is capable off. Same reason as we have Stamm and Vahok arguing most of this and not some average joe shmo who can't tank worth a shit even if he had all tia eq/all best eq.
pril


Ok. By average I don't mean an average Joe Shmoe crap player. I mean the statistical average of a regular zoning warrior of each respective race. If players were cars, I'm not suggesting we use Hugos, but I am saying that using the only Ferrari in the lot and comparing it against one of 20 some Toyota Supra's isn't a good basis for comparison in terms of balance.
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Postby Pril » Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:12 pm

I brought up paladins because you said Trolls were better because they could group with less people. And paladins have gotten worse since Toril1. Easier to play but worse.

Pril
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Postby Depok » Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:29 pm

From a Shaman perspective, please do not upgrade goodie tanks. My Shaman is bored enough. At the present time the only person I am healing tends to be the tank (sorry clerics) or the unfortunate casters who wandered into the path of that prism and are now blind.

I will say that there are plenty of times when I am using my spirit to rescue/tank because we are unable to find a warrior that we trust/think is good enough to group with.

If you upgrade goodie tanks and people start playing and leveling them you will make my life very boring.

Ok, continue thrashing about.
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Postby gimaki » Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:43 pm

Actually you being bored has nothing to do with tanks, its all about how the player spell system got overpowered for the mud. Remove targetted silence and lower stun-rate, and you will have plenty to do;)
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Postby Depok » Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:50 pm

That is true however if we use poor tanks clerics can't keep up and us Shaman have to step in.

Also, less tanks (because no one really wants to roll one up and try to level it now) means less/slower rescues which means more people getting stomped on which means more chances to heal/spirit rescue/stone/spirit walk (wink).

Not to mention those fun little CR's when the warrior tried to solo some exp in an agro area and got stomped on!
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Postby Stamm » Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:07 am

Gura - Dires can master mounted combat.

Depok - You're right about tanking. Sort of... :)

Stamm can tank pretty well, I'm not saying that to make me sound great, I'm saying that tanking is easy. If I get scales/displace/blur/etc/etc I hardly need healed.

Drop the spells and I get absolutely wasted of course, but tanking does not need to be made an easier than it currently is. That is unless tanking spells take a hit from the nerf stick, then maybe warrior tanking skills can maybe mean something. Because just now all I am is hps with rescue.
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Postby Gura » Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:14 am

Stamm- Dires used to get the mounted defense bonus. It was an error and it was fixed. Even if they can master it now they are still just as proficient as rangers.
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Postby Sylvos » Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:24 pm

Just a not on the dires vs. rangers thing.

Rangers cap mounted combat at 20. How's Dires?

Rangers have no skill to reduce a mob's defense. They can kick.

Rangers have no ability to outflank or other combat tricks. They can kick.

Dire Raiders benefit from having a skill set consistent with their concept and functionality, whereas rangers suffer from still having an antiquated (sp?) skill set that was a standard warrior config 8-10 years ago. They've had a couple skills added, but their skills and the caps they can peak at are inconsistent with the roles they fill in a group.
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Postby Kegor » Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:58 pm

Heheh. You guys let Gura change the subject of this discussion on you.

Anyhow, I have something to add here. Another reason you only see troll tanks is in part because of ultravision. I think if ultravision was done differently, you would see that duergar make fine tanks just like dwarves. Ogres? They have been forsaken. Drow? Same as grey elf basically, with the same detriments to con and hit points, but with an added one.

"Long story short," few people like wasting thier time on sunlight issues. If that was a lesser issue, you would see that trolls are not that overly special I think. So in other words, dress Gura up as a duergar and get back to us on how overpowered duergar are. :P
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Postby Jhorr » Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:09 am

Gura wrote:u can solo to 50 as a troll warrior with no problem. just need -100ac, an ebony and some patience to glance mobs.


Yeah. The question is whether it is unbalancing for the MUD as a whole. I'd say it is not, currently. There are plenty of people playing warriors as other races. When 'who warr' is like all trolls I'd start to ask questions but there is a more variety this wipe in warrior races than ever.
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Postby Silsaterur » Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:41 pm

Jaznolg wrote:Heheh. You guys let Gura change the subject of this discussion on you.

Anyhow, I have something to add here. Another reason you only see troll tanks is in part because of ultravision. I think if ultravision was done differently, you would see that duergar make fine tanks just like dwarves. Ogres? They have been forsaken. Drow? Same as grey elf basically, with the same detriments to con and hit points, but with an added one.

"Long story short," few people like wasting thier time on sunlight issues. If that was a lesser issue, you would see that trolls are not that overly special I think. So in other words, dress Gura up as a duergar and get back to us on how overpowered duergar are. :P


Edit: I decided to make this post less snide and more constructive.

I only have a few issues with dayblind, the only real one is that it is ten times worse than being human at night, because at least then you can strike up a torch or something.

I put some thought into it and came up with this:

Ultravision would allow a duergar and drow thier normal vision in darkness as is the case now; however, during the daylight hours it would funtion like reverse infravision. The player can see the room, but all of the mobs read something like. "You see a large blurred figure standing here." Or something like that.

This solution would be easy to code, would more than likely result in more Durgar tanks I mean, some people play Yuan ti tanks.

I can't remember his name, but when I started as an evil there was one Duergar tank, and he was well sought after for places where fire spells were rampant, him and two ogres could easily hold thier own...

I think this would be of help simply in respect to the fact that, for the most part it, is the evil tanks who lead, not easy to do when dayblind in jot. Just say'n....

Thanks.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:25 pm

"I can't remember his name, but when I started as an evil there was one Duergar tank, and he was well sought after for places where fire spells were rampant, him and two ogres could easily hold thier own"

go go gadget Gromikazer!!!!!
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:57 am

First of all, i must say i would suggest locking this thread and ending this
discussion untli all of the kinks are worked out in the current melee
and eq balance issues. Yes, currently i think we all agree that trolls are
by far the best race for tanks out there. They do have some negatives,
and drawbacks always lead to advantages. The fact that their
disadvantages have lately decreased does not nessecarily dictate that
they be downgraded, but it definately does widen a noticeable gap.
Yes you might get pwned by fire sometimes. Poop happens. Exp is
definately easier, hell, most goodie warriors can't solo past like 30.
As far as antis/paladins not dressing like tanks, we don't have the hp's
of warriors. period. if we wear the same eq as a warrior we're still a few
hundred short. I figure why bother at that point? as it stands now shield
block is superior to mounted combat in a lot of different ways. but this
post isn't about that. its not about numbers. it's not about who's alt is
what, and when people are on. More people play one side than the other
for some reason. albeit i have no idea what it is, but there must be
something.

The evils just got a HUGE boost being able to use neutral/evil
humans, so you can't discredit the statement that it has become easier
to get an evil group together. both of my characters happen to be
evil humans, and i get offers constantly from evils to group.

I think the point vahok is trying to make is that life for evils has gotten a bit easier as of late, with code changes/CR ease/etc. Something should
be changed to reflect this. If that means up goodies a bit? so be it.
if it means down trolls a bit? so be it. personally i'd like to see ogres
worth playing, and on par with trolls, wherever they are set to.
Should trolls be superior to goodie tanks? certainly. Should goodies
have an alternative that is JUST as powerful? no. should the gap be as
large as it currently is? no. I think this can all, and will all be sorted out
in time with eq and melee changes. i say we just drop it for now =P

Btw, duergars are definately better than dwarves. innate invis, innate
enlarge, etc. The benefits definately outweigh the negatives from my
perspective.

Bottom line:
POINT IS MOOT AT THIS JUNCTURE!

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