Balance in Tanks and Races

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:22 am

are we really comparing 15 POTENTIAL ac and 70 hps to taking double fire damage?

My tests seem to indicate about a 15-20% difference between -100 ac and -151 ac with the same char. I thought this was pretty significant until I thought about how much this is negated by being protected by scale/stone 95% of the time not even considering all the other defensive spells.

My conclusion is that great tanking comes down to spell survivability.

Double fire damage is a fact, there are several logs of trolls taking 600-1.3k damage from single clouds. It doesnt always happen on this scale, it might even be rare, but there is always potential for a serious cluster. As a general all purpose tank, I would much prefer to have a barbarian race available to evil. If there is a swing in the game dynamics away from spell prevention troll's weaknesses will be very apparent and we will have to "re-balance" trolls. If Yuanti weren't missing 4 slots, ogres didnt have the worst agi in the game, and duegars being blind you would see a lot more diversity on the evil side. As it stands, yuanti is a much more powerful and dominating tank than a troll, but few people realize / have seen it.

When dwarves, elves, and barbarians are guarding 3w and denied groups solely because zone leader demands a troll tank then I think we have a balance issue, this is just greener pastures.
Last edited by kiryan on Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby kiryan » Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:54 am

Delmair Aamoren wrote:personally i'd like to see ogres
worth playing, and on par with trolls, wherever they are set to.

Btw, duergars are definately better than dwarves. innate invis, innate
enlarge, etc. The benefits definately outweigh the negatives from my
perspective.


Ogres are viable, but not popular. They are at a disadvantage in melee combat, but not so significant that they are unviable. Two reasons you don't see more ogre tanks is first that mobs especially giants bash the **CK out of them so your constantly having to reduce them since a lot of higher end zones seem to have mobs capable of bashing ogres. Second, is a mentality ogres seem to think and dress like hitters with 2h swords and positive AC.

Duegars are dayblind. Do you want to rely on tanks and clerics that are dayblind? oops that walkin killed your darker, cant rescue cant heal. They are good options and plenty viable, but you wouldn't want all your clerics nor all your warriors to be duegar because there is major potential for a cluster. Just like its not a good idea to have all troll tanks (unfortunately thats all that is ever available). Can you really say that of dwarves clerics or tanks? They make good options for rogues, but do you really want to sit around for 12 minutes at a time during a CR cuz the rogue can't see anything?

The thing about evils is a lot of the races have some powerful imbalances that add to their character power but most have major drawbacks that are played out in group settings. For solo 1v1, and spot application comparisons, many evil races are stronger than good race equivalents however in group settings from communication to combat evil races have a much harder go at it than good races.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:06 pm

Seems to me that there is a spell that lights or darks adjacent rooms too. so having dayblind issue wouldn't be that big of a deal, just involves a little more "finesse" during certain parts of the day in certain zones
that are above ground. this isn't an issue below ground or indoors, IF
the zone is written right i guess...

As far as the statement made above that the ac + hp's doesn't make up
for spell damage, you COMPLETELY left out regen. better hp + better ac
+ regen is more than worth extra spell damage. hell with bash/silence/
stun/trip/garrote/etc there isn't really a reason that a mob should really
even get a spell off anymore.
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Postby Kegor » Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:48 am

There is no spell or skill that darkens up adjacent rooms. Only the one you are in.

Of troll regen. I think a few people throughout the course of this thread have stated the uselessness of regen in zoning situations. All it is good for is lower level exping, or really slow high level exping if you are unfourtunate enough to be without a healer type whatsoever. I will give you that sitting there waiting for your tank to heal up only taking a few minutes vs 15 mins or so is kinda nice, but nothing more. A lot of you guys seem to think regen is some uber attribute for zoning even though. I assure you it is not.
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Postby oteb » Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:59 am

Jaznolg wrote:There is no spell or skill that darkens up adjacent rooms. Only the one you are in.


earth fog cast with 'burst' as target should dakren adjecent rooms.
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Postby Demuladon » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:47 am

Earth fog is not great for darkening in the zone situation since it is "unreliable" and could easily cause a spank in a dangerous area.

eg. If I cast earth fog on myself, after the spell falls the fog will remain up for a while however the fog will stop following me.

Hypothetical - if tank/leader moves north and earth fog falls, I move north into ARGH light while all the other day blinds remain behind in room that will remain fogged for maybe another 30s. If agro mob walks in and attacks me we have a situation where group is split and could easily lead to spank.

A squid is a much better option as darkener
-since it does not need to be mem'd
-and since the darkglobe seems to last longer and falls instantly.
Last edited by Demuladon on Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Demuladon » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:49 am

ps.

The burst option for earth fog will fog the room you are in and adjacent rooms for 1minute14seconds.

earth fog has hungry mem time of 10s so takes around 8seconds to mem an if mediate works, else it takes around 13seconds (take off a second if not hungry/thirsty)

So typically after meming I find I have around 1minute of fog time with the burst option.

You cannot "stack" the burst earth fogs - ie if I cast 2 earth fog bursts, 50 seconds apart, they both fall 1min14s after the first fog is cast.

Burst is useful to an ultra since it allows us to look into adjacent rooms during day, however the short duration means it's not great for fighting or for memouts etc.

By the way these posts aren't a whine against earth fog.. it is what it is and is probably one of my most used/useful spells!
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Postby Ambar » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:54 am

Demuladon wrote:Hypothetical - if tank/leader moves north and earth fog falls, I move north into ARGH light while all the other day blinds remain behind in room that will remain fogged for maybe another 30s. If agro mob walks in and attacks me we have a situation where group is split and could easily lead to spank.

A squid is a much better option as darkener
-since it does not need to be mem'd
-and since the darkglobe seems to last longer and falls instantly.


This used to be the case with globe of darkness too .. has it been fixed? And why would you move without your group leader *wink*
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*sigh*

Postby Zowa » Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:51 pm

okay this is gonna probably piss people off because i stopped reading the thread halfway through, because it was just the same people saying the same thing over and over.. and it got boring!

here's something to think about... when there is a crash or reboot we evils are lucky to get ONE decent zoning group together compared to how many on the good side??!! so, so what if our tanks are slightly stronger, we are vastly outnumbered.. we can solo stuff ya'll can't big woop?! how hard is it to get a goodie exp group going? not as tough as an evil one i bet...

and everyone complaining seems to have been here for years and years so you probably no the quests, zones, etc. and have uber equipment on ALL of your characters.. so quite yer belly aching
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:56 pm

So by your logic... because evils can't keep their players, they should get more bonuses?
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Postby Ambar » Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:21 pm

hehe why would you stop reading a thread with only a few messages?? Makes your areguments a little less valid .... Noone will get pissed off cause the response is funny ...

bonuses? globe of darkness been around for ages ... and solid fog ... earth fog is the only new thing ... hell its new since i started playing goodie again ...

evil race characters haven't changed (innates, etc) except the adding of the dire raider in a few years ... i remember even back a couple years ago, jaz hated the ultravision ... nothing new here either, in fact i seem to recalla similar series of threads back a year or two ago ...... just seems a more viable *fix* since the pbase dwindled. we all used to have debates on what was better, ultra or infra, and most of the evils thought ultra was the best...

as an aside ... what was the ratio of evils to goodies when the pbase was high? back then i played only goodie so i dont know ...
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Postby Sesexe » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:05 pm

Saying things like this.

Ashiwi wrote:So by your logic... because evils can't keep their players, they should get more bonuses?


Can be inflammatory when you've already said this.

Ashiwi wrote:Seriously though, this is really disturbing for me in a time when the pbase is dwindling.


And thinking about when you said things like this.

Ashiwi wrote:There's no room here for such mean-spirited childishness, such as what keeps getting exhibited here and apparently in the game, as well. Saying it in jest? That's wonderful! Being genuinely spiteful and malicious? Who wants to play in that atmosphere?


Can be..
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:09 pm

And the pwn award goes to.... Sesexe. Nice one.
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Postby Mitharx » Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:55 am

I didn't find ashiwi's comment all that inflammatory. I didn't find it all that accurate either though. Zowa didn't seem to say much about getting more bonuses just keeping the ones they have. The ones they have come from the challenges they face as evil races and that's cool. They don't get more, they just keep what they have. If there was an implied gimme an upgrade then what ashiwi said was a pretty accurate summary.

I had a point here, but I'm tired and decided I was just rambling. Maybe I can make it more precisely tomorrow.
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Postby Kegor » Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:13 am

Ashiwi wrote:So by your logic... because evils can't keep their players, they should get more bonuses?


I find your view of evils somewhat disturbing Ashiwi. Perhaps one or two individuals have flamed people on the bbs or in the game, that is very likely. But to generalize that assumption of us all is not very accurate.

The only reason evils "can't keep thier players" is because it is not always fun to sit around, or do exp when all you really wanna do is zone. I have thought of turning goodie myself at times. But you know what keeps me from doing that? I like playing evil, and I would hate to add to the already sickning majority that the goodies have.

Other times tho, I really do wonder. Should all evils just be goodies, and we can just delete the whole idea of them from the mud? I fear nothing is being done to keep that from happening, I really do. I know you goodies wouldn't mind very much, but I for one do.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:24 pm

First, to Zowa... if my words came off as flaming you then I truly apologize, as that was not my intention.

Sojourn's whole pbase is dwindling and the evil side is taking a hard crunch. It's a lot more noticable over there, because the evil pbase was already a fraction of what the goodie side is. Find my views disturbing, if you will, it won't change the fact that the disproportionately large amount of harsh flames and ill will displayed on the evil side has been what has kept me from any desire to experience the game from that perspective. Perhaps I'm the only one who has ever felt this way; I will admit that possibility. Believe it or not, there are several evils whom I consider to be good friends of mine, and it hurts me to see them having to go through this, especially when I look at the shrinking pbase as a game-wide dilemma. As the trends on the evil side go, so will the trends on the goodie side follow, and vice-versa. If we all want to increase our numbers, then perhaps all possibilities should be examined.

As for what I said... if that, in your eyes, can be considered a flame as harsh as what was basically "fuck you, shut your mouth, you're stupid and your ideas are worthless," then I apologize to everybody for bringing that kind of abusive behavior to Zowa, who seems like a genuinely nice person.
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Postby gimaki » Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:07 pm

Jaznolg wrote:I know you goodies wouldn't mind very much, but I for one do.


I find your view of goodies somewhat disturbing Jaznolg. To generalize that assumption of us all is not very accurate. I miss the days when we had to race evils to zones, I can't remember the last time I saw a zone group of evils.. In all honesty it's only going to get worse for evils as the entire player base decreases. Toril needs a perm/stable home quick.
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:54 pm

Ashiwi, we all have our bad moments. I must have re-written my last post 3-4 times, trying so hard not to flame or insult you, as I know I have a serious problem doing so. I know, because one time you gave me a reality check on the BBS. If I in some way helped you to see how you could be coming off to some of the evilrace players, and this wasn't something you intended, then I'm happy I could help you to do so.

As for this thread now, thinking of my feelings about the pointlessness of this thread, and now looking at posts like Jaznolg's and Gimaki's most recent..

I'm done here. For those of you who apparently like to do so, I guess have fun and continue to throw sand at eachother in my absence.
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Re: *sigh*

Postby Stamm » Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:41 pm

Zowa wrote:okay this is gonna probably piss people off because i stopped reading the thread halfway through, because it was just the same people saying the same thing over and over.. and it got boring!


Then don't post.
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Postby fotex » Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:17 pm

gimaki wrote:In all honesty it's only going to get worse for evils as the entire player base decreases.


Yep, and the evil pbase dying off first is really just like the coal miner's canary, in the larger view of the mud's outlook.
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Postby Stamm » Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:22 pm

gimaki wrote:
Jaznolg wrote:I know you goodies wouldn't mind very much, but I for one do.


I find your view of goodies somewhat disturbing Jaznolg. To generalize that assumption of us all is not very accurate. I miss the days when we had to race evils to zones, I can't remember the last time I saw a zone group of evils.. In all honesty it's only going to get worse for evils as the entire player base decreases. Toril needs a perm/stable home quick.


Yep, I agree with Gimaki.

However, I would say -if- the pbase decreases... because it doesn't have to be that way.

I would miss evils as a concept, and many of the evil players. But I wouldn't miss the constant whinging on the boards by disgruntled evils :P
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Postby Rihesesassixiz » Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:06 am

*Yells out from the ogre stands*

Don't forget about us!

*Snicker*
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Postby Baikalisan » Fri Apr 16, 2004 4:43 am

Oh for pitys sake, just shut up and play the game.


Theres nothing to see here. Please drive through.
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Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:35 pm

Baikalisan wrote:Oh for pitys sake, just shut up and play the game.


Is this a message to self? ;)
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:18 pm

How bout we play the game as a tank before sharing yer comments here? And start shit in someone elses thread.



Thanks

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