I was browsing through the undead vision thread and got to thinking about ultravision. It has never seemed right to be completely blind in light to me. Especially after reading some of the fine works of R.A. Salvatore and his most famed character, Drizzt. So I opened up my monster manual to read all the specifics I could to see how the mud had adopted the theme of total blindness under the sun. What I found in doing so got me to thinking more on what the mud would be like if the handicaps of ultravision races were modified on a racial basis, since they all have thier very own distinct differences and penalties for seeing and fighting in sunlight (none of which imply complete blindness).
I feel I posted here on the gameplay discussion, rather than the ideas forum, rather appropriately considering the special changes to sight for just one class. The issue of "day blindness" has been discussed in the past I'm sure, but surely an issue this important regarding a race deserves more in depth considerations.
Don't get me wrong here, there should be handicaping penalties for being in the sunlight for these said races. I am not proposing to eliminate them, just give them the proper translation from fact of the matter matieral from which this entire mud is formed. Furthermore, it seems to me that the penalties from the book would bring a higher level of balance to the mud even. Done right, it might just level the playing field in a lot of peoples mind to play an evil character. To say that the "day blind" penalty only effects that race would not be accurate. It effects all characters of that entire union that is so neccessary on this mud.
Furthermore, if ultravision races could see only the room they are in underneath the suns light, while incurring all of the penalties to stats, attack rolls, backstabs, and what have you as implied in the book, I think we would be balancing the mud, solving a lot of problems, and create some new more fun to deal with problems.
If you would like me to post the penalties and such from the book, I would be happy to. But I'm sure most people that play this mud seriously already have one. :)
Ultravision
Ultravision
Last edited by Kegor on Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Drizzt has the Daylight Adaptation feat that allows races normally blind in daylight to function without penalty. A character taking this feat takes it at the expense of other feats that would improve their skills, magic, or combat abilities. So we can't just adapt how the source material does it.
For dayblind characters that don't take that feat, the penalties for abrupt exposure to bright light consist of being blind for one round, then dazzled for the remainder of the time they spend in the light. The latter consists of -1 to attack, search, and spot checks.
My gut instinct in terms of trying to replicate this is to have the blindness reduce itself into something resembling the dazzled state after a period of time in blinding conditions with skill in blindfighting reducing the length of blindness and penalties for being dazzled. But I'm pretty sure casters don't get blindfighting. Then again, casters aren't exactly affected much by penalties to attack. Any other ideas how what could be used as a theoretical way to modify blindness?
For dayblind characters that don't take that feat, the penalties for abrupt exposure to bright light consist of being blind for one round, then dazzled for the remainder of the time they spend in the light. The latter consists of -1 to attack, search, and spot checks.
My gut instinct in terms of trying to replicate this is to have the blindness reduce itself into something resembling the dazzled state after a period of time in blinding conditions with skill in blindfighting reducing the length of blindness and penalties for being dazzled. But I'm pretty sure casters don't get blindfighting. Then again, casters aren't exactly affected much by penalties to attack. Any other ideas how what could be used as a theoretical way to modify blindness?
Seeing in the dark is nice, this is tue. But not even being able to see well enough in sunlight to follow your group or even get something out of your bag is a bit much. Being able to see your immeidiate surroundings just makes more sense to me from what I have read of the racial handicaps in dealing with sunlight. Coding the incurred stat decreases and the like is probably the more difficult issue here.
At the same time remember that you can't read using ultravision, and all the other associated detriments that have been ignored in order to make it simple to understand and code.
You can't nitpick through the way something is implemented just because it suits you to have it done another way, not if you don't want it nitpicked back in return :P
You can't nitpick through the way something is implemented just because it suits you to have it done another way, not if you don't want it nitpicked back in return :P
I think the big issue is for the dayblind races to just be able to do basic things like follow a leader and grab stuff out of a bag instead of trying to do everything you can normally do. Also, for duergar warriors to at least make attempts at rescuing while outside instead of just listening to some group members get mauled. Being able to see other rooms in the dark is useful for scouting, but it doesn't really compare to not being able to do anything in the room you're in under certain circumstances.
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mynazzaraxxsyn
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Stamm wrote:you can't read using ultravision
If this was imped then darkies could never see at all.
I'd say make day time for darkies like night time for infras.
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
accessing items
I think that one should be able to get at one's items in the dark. For example, I should be able to quaff a potion in my inventory and it would be nice if I could rummage through (although not look in) my bags. It would probably make sense if this was laggy (like search) to show that there is an effort involved and this is not a quick thing.
Also, it would be nice if combat gave less information. I don't think I'm going to be able to pick up every nuance while blind. Should just be you hear the sounds of combat or some such. This should perhaps be different for people with blindfighting but for those of us unskilled in fighting in the dark, less info.
Also, it would be nice if combat gave less information. I don't think I'm going to be able to pick up every nuance while blind. Should just be you hear the sounds of combat or some such. This should perhaps be different for people with blindfighting but for those of us unskilled in fighting in the dark, less info.
Stamm wrote:You can't nitpick through the way something is implemented just because it suits you to have it done another way, not if you don't want it nitpicked back in return :P
Holy Crap! Isn't that your motto? ;)
Ultravision and needing light to read/scribe spells:
1) Wouldn't have a problem with not being able to scribe in guildhalls as Drow - they are lit.
2) Wouldn't be able to mem in complete natural darkness conditions - but this never exists in zoning because infra's always carry light.
3) Would reduce one small aspect of twinkability - not that I'm sure it is twinked.
My Take on Ultravision:
Make me need light to mem/scribe if you want, but atleast let me get things from inventory and bags - Just about anyone can do this in real life blindfolded. Although it would be nice to see blurry shapes of mobs in light, but not able to read room descrips/titles/exitable directions, I'd settle with just being able to go thru my things.
Ultravision not being able to see in the next room at all in sunlight would be more accurate I think. Kind of like humans in the dark with no infra spell. Just being able to see the room you are in would be a step in the right direction though. But, It would only make sense to have penalties incurred for this tradeoff to stats as it is from D&D. Globe of darkness for illithids could possibly then be changed to negate the sunlight penalties or view surrounding rooms on scan.
Well lets talk about balance Stamm. What is the good to evil ratio on this mud would you say? 4:1? 5:1? Hard to say, but I think it is obvious that the majority of people like playing good more. Granted that good races were implimented first, and improved on for a good while, before the complete evil picture came into place. That could be one reason for the weight the good side carries in numbers. But I think the larger issue is the one we have here, Ultravision. There are even evils that roll infra characters as an attempt to escape "day blindness". But as anyone who has played evil knows, there is no escaping this issue for anyone who goes zoning and groups. I a change like this would not make too big a difference to good playerbase I wouldn't think. But it just might shift that ratio number down closer to 3:1. This change would make the overall functionality of evils just a tiny bit better, but it would make little difference to the very skilled verteran ultravision players. It is the lack of people willing to adjust to ultravision as it is implemented now that has kept the evil playerbase down. But who can blame them? Basically it would just save a little time and attract more players to playing these races, be them newbies or people that had wanted to play one before but just could not deal with the sunlight issues. Honestly, if I had the time back that I have waited for sunlight to pass to continue leading a zone, or going about personal business, it would add up into RL days.
It would be benificial to the muds playerbase balance as I see things. Which has been a long standing issue with evils. So why not change this? Not for that reason though, but for the fact that it is laid out in D&D that way.
It would be benificial to the muds playerbase balance as I see things. Which has been a long standing issue with evils. So why not change this? Not for that reason though, but for the fact that it is laid out in D&D that way.
That is a good point Jaz. I didn't start playing an ultra until I already knew my way around the mud and therefor it didn't affect me so much. If ultra's could see in day via a very limited form, as you are suggesting, I see it as something to attract new players more then giving a leg up to established ultras - bc we've gotten used to it for the most part. Could be a sellling point for some I suppose.
It would also be more in theme with the books and stuff, and the MUD as a whole does need more players, doesn't it?
It would also be more in theme with the books and stuff, and the MUD as a whole does need more players, doesn't it?
The evil races that do get ultra aren't exactly much more powerful than their good race equivalents. Drow and greys are almost exactly the same minus the low level spell innates. Ditto with mountain dwarves and duergar, though I think duergar might be slightly stronger. I can't say for certain though, most of my stat testing has been for elves (both grey and drow), trolls, and gnomes. Their stats aren't anywhere near as skewed as those for ogres and trolls and most of their innates are useless at high levels or easily replicated with potions.
And FWIW, ultravision on the mud has no resemblence at all to how it exists in D&D and FR. Under the current ruleset, drow and all dwarves just shift to black and white vision in the absence of light, with drow and duergar in particular suffering brief blindness followed by penalties to combat and some skills when exposed to bright light. Under the previous ruleset, it was largely the same (though with bigger penalties) except that all races with the ability to see in the dark had it labeled infravision and it allowed for normal vision, not just seeing red blobs. There was even a blurb in one of the rulebooks about how "ultravision" can't actually be feasible for dark-dwelling creatures due to the general absence of UV light in underground areas and low amount of it that can reach a planet from stars at night.
And FWIW, ultravision on the mud has no resemblence at all to how it exists in D&D and FR. Under the current ruleset, drow and all dwarves just shift to black and white vision in the absence of light, with drow and duergar in particular suffering brief blindness followed by penalties to combat and some skills when exposed to bright light. Under the previous ruleset, it was largely the same (though with bigger penalties) except that all races with the ability to see in the dark had it labeled infravision and it allowed for normal vision, not just seeing red blobs. There was even a blurb in one of the rulebooks about how "ultravision" can't actually be feasible for dark-dwelling creatures due to the general absence of UV light in underground areas and low amount of it that can reach a planet from stars at night.
Thank you Treladian. Grey elves and drow elves are nearly identical in thier strengths and weaknesses, as are duergar and dwarves. Though, innates are correctly different on the mud, as they should be.
Stamm you need to open your eyes if you think that the good to evil ratio is not 4:1 or even to 5:1 at prime time. Maybe you only look at who good sort, I don't know.
Treladian is correct though. There really is no such thing as ultravision. All underdark races have superb infravision. In which case it would be reasonable to allow them to see things as they are one room away in the dark as ultravision is now.
Anyone who tries to deny the basis of these races as they are written in D&D rules needs to go do thier homework.
Stamm you need to open your eyes if you think that the good to evil ratio is not 4:1 or even to 5:1 at prime time. Maybe you only look at who good sort, I don't know.
Treladian is correct though. There really is no such thing as ultravision. All underdark races have superb infravision. In which case it would be reasonable to allow them to see things as they are one room away in the dark as ultravision is now.
Anyone who tries to deny the basis of these races as they are written in D&D rules needs to go do thier homework.
Stamm wrote:Ah, well, at least we're being honest now :P
So, you're proposing to remove the 'big' evil penalty, the only one that I can think of which is supposed to counter you gettiing more powerful races.
Are you prepared to accept downgrades of your races?
I think you misunderstand what I am saying. Read it a bit more closely.
Keeping on target with the Discussion topic:
Seeing in day or not seeing in day (as is now) doesn't make a hill of beans difference to me.
I'd just like to be able to go thru my inventory and bags.
Btw, who says all potions come in the exact same type of containers? :D
Seeing in day or not seeing in day (as is now) doesn't make a hill of beans difference to me.
I'd just like to be able to go thru my inventory and bags.
Btw, who says all potions come in the exact same type of containers? :D
Last edited by Sesexe on Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
My data was inaccurate.
Unfortunately I doubt the staff is going to post anything official, so I suppose it's up to us to figure it out?
Unfortunately I doubt the staff is going to post anything official, so I suppose it's up to us to figure it out?
Last edited by Sesexe on Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
*sigh* Ok. Rather than trust whatever Sesexe cooked up, here is how the stats _really_ are. I'm only considering str/dex/con/agi. If I say = then I mean that I could not see a difference, I would need to use max_stat equipment to test it out. I have done so for trolls and for dwarves however.
Mountain Dwarf v Swamp Troll
Str Troll > Dwarf
Con Troll > Dwarf
Agi Troll > Dwarf
Dex Dwarf > Troll
Barbarian v Swamp Troll
Str Troll > Barb
Con Troll > Barb
Agi Troll > Barb
Dex Barb > Troll
Duergar v Mountain Dwarf
Str Duergar > Dwarf
Con Duergar = Dwarf
Agi Duergar = Dwarf
Dex Duergar = Dwarf
To get these absolutely correct, I need to know the exact number that a duergar warrior notches their con, agi and dex at past 100. If anybody would like to test that out, then great.
Mountain Dwarf v Swamp Troll
Str Troll > Dwarf
Con Troll > Dwarf
Agi Troll > Dwarf
Dex Dwarf > Troll
Barbarian v Swamp Troll
Str Troll > Barb
Con Troll > Barb
Agi Troll > Barb
Dex Barb > Troll
Duergar v Mountain Dwarf
Str Duergar > Dwarf
Con Duergar = Dwarf
Agi Duergar = Dwarf
Dex Duergar = Dwarf
To get these absolutely correct, I need to know the exact number that a duergar warrior notches their con, agi and dex at past 100. If anybody would like to test that out, then great.
I actually have completely different comparisons on natural stats than those. The information I have says evils, in general (honestly have no idea on the orc/yuanti side. I thnk they're kinda "plain"), have much better stats, natural saves, hps, etc. For example, from the info I have, duergars have higher dex, str, and wisdom than dwarfs. the rest of the stats are the same. Why this upgrade? Because being dayblind sucks. I suppose that's not really an argument either way, but it seemsyou would have to give up something to be able to see well in the lighted world. If the penalities are severe enough then perhaps very limited vision in ultra is understandable. That gets us into a whole what-if and what-if arguement though.
Low numbers on the evil side may be because of ultra, but they may also be because the same players are generally playing throughout the mud and the influx of new players is as times where other evils weren't around to help them get going. In that case, it's a momentum thing. For example, earlier there were about 11 evils on and 8 or 9 of them were troll warriors. When there are no clerics, enchanters, or other classes around to get the ball rolling with new players then everyone is just gonna roll a character they can solo with and do their own thing. The evil side just doesn't benefit then.
It seems perfectly natural for me and for many others to just go out and ask people what's up and if they wanna group and compare stats and maybe change classes if I make a friend so we can group better, but that doesn't really occur to everyone. Imo, which may not mean all that much, this is as much a problem as being dayblind.
Low numbers on the evil side may be because of ultra, but they may also be because the same players are generally playing throughout the mud and the influx of new players is as times where other evils weren't around to help them get going. In that case, it's a momentum thing. For example, earlier there were about 11 evils on and 8 or 9 of them were troll warriors. When there are no clerics, enchanters, or other classes around to get the ball rolling with new players then everyone is just gonna roll a character they can solo with and do their own thing. The evil side just doesn't benefit then.
It seems perfectly natural for me and for many others to just go out and ask people what's up and if they wanna group and compare stats and maybe change classes if I make a friend so we can group better, but that doesn't really occur to everyone. Imo, which may not mean all that much, this is as much a problem as being dayblind.
Mitharx wrote:Low numbers on the evil side may be because of ultra, but they may also be because the same players are generally playing throughout the mud and the influx of new players is as times where other evils weren't around to help them get going. In that case, it's a momentum thing. For example, earlier there were about 11 evils on and 8 or 9 of them were troll warriors. When there are no clerics, enchanters, or other classes around to get the ball rolling with new players then everyone is just gonna roll a character they can solo with and do their own thing. The evil side just doesn't benefit then.
It seems perfectly natural for me and for many others to just go out and ask people what's up and if they wanna group and compare stats and maybe change classes if I make a friend so we can group better, but that doesn't really occur to everyone. Imo, which may not mean all that much, this is as much a problem as being dayblind.
Troll warriors are a big help to leveling other characters as well. As is any warrior for that matter. I would be willing to be that at least 8 of those 11 troll warriors you saw have other level 48-50 characters as well that would gladly help anyone who sent them a tell with any character they have. But that is not the issue.
I don't think you understand the depth of most evils. Most have at least 1 or 2 alts. Others that have been around longer, 3 to 8 alts. 11 people is just not enough to do anything in most cases unless you have the perfect arrangement. Sometimes with 11 people on the evil side that arrangement can be made with alts as, I'm sure it could on the good, but most times it can not. Which brings people who like to play evil characters only right back to leveling another one, which explains the number of alts. I have 8 now, 7 of which are level 50. 5 of which are an ultravision race.
--------
The number of useful alts is great. It lets us do things most days, even if its only a weak level 40-50 zone that we have to twink (and pay for with a few deaths here or there). But the fact of the matter really is that ultravision has, is, and always will be (if it is left the same) a detriment to the evil playerbase, weather any of you would like to believe it or not. Weather you think its a balanced change to rearange that to fit D&D concepts or not. I think if you took a closer look at the penalties incured vs the mal effects on the entire evil side as a whole, you just might reconsider. Or maybe you have been playing goodie so long, you just don't care. I really don't know.
Also keep in mind that this is not a good vs evil debate. It is a debate about a form of vision in the mud that is incorrectly interpreted from D&D concepts. Those concepts if implied correctly would still keep that same balance, just with a different effect. That effect would mostly be on peoples decision to roll an ultravision race, or an evil character in general. Being the waste of time to sit under the sun as it is, and to be unrealistically challenged by false D&D concepts, who would blame half of you goodies for not ever wanting to play an evil character. Or to roll one up and never play it, since good is so much more benificial.
Oops this turned into a rant!
Shev, Shev, Shev ... you know people have to feel full of themselves, and they are always going to feel more knowledgable than the rest
this thread has been making me giggle my butt off ..
Ultra is a hindrance not a stopping block ... can be avoided easily enough with LOTS of spells these days .. and hell take a troll/snake lurer and an Ogre or Snake summoner (hell we used to do it ALL the time!) ...
Irta .... can you detect WHICH potion you are quaffing in the dark? Or do all bottles feel the same by touch only? (Oops was that the tele potion or the stone potion??)
IMHO you should be able to tell which book to grab while dayblind, but how the hell can you read it??
IMHO there is NOTHING wrong with ultra ... Now that I see the differences between drow and grey I see no issue at all ... drow have more spell_save and racial advantages (innates), but grey have that SNEAK and that agil ... the ultra can be a definite advantage (TB anyone??)
Evils/goods are soooooooo different that even discussing the similarities is a joke... people just ACT different on the evil side .. I can't even describe it .. There was more of a kinship than there is on the goodie side ... more of a a *hey lets help joe with this spell so we can have one more of that type on our side* than the goodies have ... I have chosen to prime goodie now, but man i miss evils ... seemed tanks rescues more and clerics/chanters/shaman did a better job protecting the group. I recall VERY few gheal requests as an evil where as now I see them all the time ... goodie shaman are so busy casting offense they forget to gheal! Chanters just dont keep the right people protected (why the hell dont they stone the clerics at LEAST??)
I think what the evils want is what we had 1.5 years ago before all the real evils left. Evils started going downhill FAST when the best leaders left ... now there are a handful still here trying to carry the load of all the ones I can think of. Jaz, Targsk, Dizzin, Dezzex, outstanding effort guys ... keep trying ... it has to get better eventually... I think evils today need to train the young better ... instead of turning them into high level noobs which is what I see now .. they seem spoon fed and unable to make snap descisions .. which is why we see evils spanktastic all the time now ...
I also think that goodies need to stop commenting on the things they THINK about evils, or roll evils and see for themselves. Be a viable evil not just a *I rolled an evil and got shit on* type thing.
There will always be bitches about racial challenges, but why are we trying to make the game we love so easy? As someone said .. was it you kelly? ... Toril/Soj was in its heyday when it was a HARD ass game to play. Now that we get handed everything, even leveling is easy, the pbase is lower... I dont even see oldschool players coming back to see the changes ...
-Aerisia
/err end rant .. sorry I got long winded again!
Shev, Shev, Shev ... you know people have to feel full of themselves, and they are always going to feel more knowledgable than the rest
this thread has been making me giggle my butt off ..
Ultra is a hindrance not a stopping block ... can be avoided easily enough with LOTS of spells these days .. and hell take a troll/snake lurer and an Ogre or Snake summoner (hell we used to do it ALL the time!) ...
Irta .... can you detect WHICH potion you are quaffing in the dark? Or do all bottles feel the same by touch only? (Oops was that the tele potion or the stone potion??)
IMHO you should be able to tell which book to grab while dayblind, but how the hell can you read it??
IMHO there is NOTHING wrong with ultra ... Now that I see the differences between drow and grey I see no issue at all ... drow have more spell_save and racial advantages (innates), but grey have that SNEAK and that agil ... the ultra can be a definite advantage (TB anyone??)
Evils/goods are soooooooo different that even discussing the similarities is a joke... people just ACT different on the evil side .. I can't even describe it .. There was more of a kinship than there is on the goodie side ... more of a a *hey lets help joe with this spell so we can have one more of that type on our side* than the goodies have ... I have chosen to prime goodie now, but man i miss evils ... seemed tanks rescues more and clerics/chanters/shaman did a better job protecting the group. I recall VERY few gheal requests as an evil where as now I see them all the time ... goodie shaman are so busy casting offense they forget to gheal! Chanters just dont keep the right people protected (why the hell dont they stone the clerics at LEAST??)
I think what the evils want is what we had 1.5 years ago before all the real evils left. Evils started going downhill FAST when the best leaders left ... now there are a handful still here trying to carry the load of all the ones I can think of. Jaz, Targsk, Dizzin, Dezzex, outstanding effort guys ... keep trying ... it has to get better eventually... I think evils today need to train the young better ... instead of turning them into high level noobs which is what I see now .. they seem spoon fed and unable to make snap descisions .. which is why we see evils spanktastic all the time now ...
I also think that goodies need to stop commenting on the things they THINK about evils, or roll evils and see for themselves. Be a viable evil not just a *I rolled an evil and got shit on* type thing.
There will always be bitches about racial challenges, but why are we trying to make the game we love so easy? As someone said .. was it you kelly? ... Toril/Soj was in its heyday when it was a HARD ass game to play. Now that we get handed everything, even leveling is easy, the pbase is lower... I dont even see oldschool players coming back to see the changes ...
-Aerisia
/err end rant .. sorry I got long winded again!
I think it is wierd to completely rewrite the first post of a thread... and i also still think ultra pwns, specially for dooger. The benefits are just awesome.. you can walk around at night / darkness and see what is next to you. Every zone has darkness or is dark at some time, only a few are in the sun.
Good post Jen. Everyone is making fine points here. But I think you are sidestepping the real issue. The closer this mud follows D&D concepts, the better it will be. We are getting a little off course now I think based on how "ultravision" has been here for so long. Conjuring a number of spells that are just taking us farther away from the D&D concepts.
I find myself keep saying this. There would be no greater advantages or disadvantages if things were done correctly by the D&D concepts. It would just be different. The talk of balance and what not is just a possible benifit of changing these disadantanges.
D&D concepts people. They are the foundation of this mud. The farther we get from them, the more ridiculous it becomes (don't get me started on bash again).
I find myself keep saying this. There would be no greater advantages or disadvantages if things were done correctly by the D&D concepts. It would just be different. The talk of balance and what not is just a possible benifit of changing these disadantanges.
D&D concepts people. They are the foundation of this mud. The farther we get from them, the more ridiculous it becomes (don't get me started on bash again).
Ambar wrote:Now that I see the differences between drow and grey I see no issue at all ... drow have more spell_save and racial advantages (innates), but grey have that SNEAK and that agil ... the ultra can be a definite advantage (TB anyone??)
Just as a side note, greys and drow have the same agility as far as I can find without the use of max stat eq. Outdoor sneak easily makes up for any bonuses drow get, so the two are definately balanced except for extra wait time for the big globe of fire burning in the sky to go down (time sinks don't really equate properly into mechanical balance).
Mountain dwarves are much more boring compared to their duegar counterparts, but then again all dwarves are boring to begin with! (Seriously though, mountain dwarves could use a decent innate ability to make them more interesting.)
I understand the depth of evils. It's the depth of goodies too. We, for the most part, have lots and lots of alts and it makes the game much more accessable.
11 is enough to do some good stuff if you all have compatible alts. Not the best stuff, but I love doing guild stuff with only 11 for the extra challenge and if evils are as good as all evils say they are then it should be fun.
BTW: I've played evils for a while to get a feel for the whole ultra side. I ultimately quit because it wasn't doing much good for the guild at the time, but I can see the big disadvantages. I just also saw of the advantages.
It's not a side-step of the issue, it's a possible alternative to having player-problems that I notied. If it's true that the evils are really deep and they were alting like crazy then get one or two of those wars up (using the other alts) and throw an 11 person zoning group together. Can be done and will be fun.
Finally, if evil posts are for evils only please state it. I don't think we'll be offended. I believe it's short-sided to say that we can offer nothing valuable because we're not evils, but if it's your opnions then I'm willing to bet a large majority of people will respect it.
Ambar, that level of skill and family type attitude can be found quite often on the goodie side. Not sure why you're not seeing it, but I see it all the time. It's often within guilds, but it's often outside of guilds as well.
11 is enough to do some good stuff if you all have compatible alts. Not the best stuff, but I love doing guild stuff with only 11 for the extra challenge and if evils are as good as all evils say they are then it should be fun.
BTW: I've played evils for a while to get a feel for the whole ultra side. I ultimately quit because it wasn't doing much good for the guild at the time, but I can see the big disadvantages. I just also saw of the advantages.
It's not a side-step of the issue, it's a possible alternative to having player-problems that I notied. If it's true that the evils are really deep and they were alting like crazy then get one or two of those wars up (using the other alts) and throw an 11 person zoning group together. Can be done and will be fun.
Finally, if evil posts are for evils only please state it. I don't think we'll be offended. I believe it's short-sided to say that we can offer nothing valuable because we're not evils, but if it's your opnions then I'm willing to bet a large majority of people will respect it.
Ambar, that level of skill and family type attitude can be found quite often on the goodie side. Not sure why you're not seeing it, but I see it all the time. It's often within guilds, but it's often outside of guilds as well.
Mitharx wrote:Ambar, that level of skill and family type attitude can be found quite often on the goodie side. Not sure why you're not seeing it, but I see it all the time. It's often within guilds, but it's often outside of guilds as well.
Of course there is skill and family love on the goodie side.. I see it in my GOODIE guild ... I love the guys I am guilded with .. It is a different relationship on the goodie side as evils tho .. where we have that kind of relationship in our guild, evils used to have it across the board.
I think I'm fairly able to respond here since I have extensively zoned with both evils and good side. I see more skill on the evil side in caster types (barring my guild cause *. Netheril just pwn :P) I know that when I first started playing my goodie, the goodies I'd group with were astounded at how many people I could keep hasted/stoned and STILL cast my meager offense. To me, it seemed natural, what I was taught by the BEST evil race leaders.
Back to the ultra vision thing. I think we all have opinions on the matter, and sure maybe we can adapt like the renowned drow of FR books did, and eventually see in the daytime. Do we want to take the damage to our eq that he did? Where evil only eq gets chipped away by the sun, or do we want to take hp damage per every minute in the sun until we are adapted?
-Just my $.02!!
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."
-Italian Proverb
-Italian Proverb
Nods. Definitely within guilds. Maybe its not yet developed outside of that yet. For the most part all goodies I know pretty much treat the others that way. There are some exceptions on both sides, I'm sure. But then, maybe not. It's possible very evil got along with evil and was itching to help them every chance they get, but from the ones I've talked to it's not the impression I've gotten.
If you disagree then you might be right. I dunno. I didn't extensively evil. Just noticing that the loyalty (brotherhood) I've heard about on evils seems to reflect closely what I experience with most people on the goodie side. Maybe I'm lucky:)
If you disagree then you might be right. I dunno. I didn't extensively evil. Just noticing that the loyalty (brotherhood) I've heard about on evils seems to reflect closely what I experience with most people on the goodie side. Maybe I'm lucky:)
HP damage might be a cool penalty when the sun first hits an ultras eyes (accompanied by a one minute dayblindness). Then incur penalties to hit, dam, dex, etc that is in the D&D books (if there is no squid around, or sunlight blocking spell). Either way, looking into an adjacent room should be out of the question of course.
A few ideas that build on Ambars/Jaz's sun-damage suggestion for Ultras:
Positive: ultra's see during the day
(i) During day let ultra's see in the room they are in (to allow fighting, meming, looting) but not into adjacent rooms.
Negative: large penalties for operating in daylight
(i) Stats are reduced to say, 75% of maximum while ultra is in sunlight.
(ii) Ultra doesn't regen hp's in sunlight (tho can be healed of course).
(iii) Each game hour (tic) in sunlight (while not fighting) the ultra loses 25% of current hps. After 8 game hours in sunlight duergar warrior will be down to around 100*(0.75)^8~10% of his starting hps.
eg. a 100hp duergar warrior while in sun, starts at 100hps then drops to (100*0.75)=75hp after first tic, (75*0.75)=57hp after second tic, (57*0.75)=42hps after 3rd tic etc.
(iv) Let old age reduce the effects of sunlight on ultras.. ie. the gnarled old drow is less affected by sun than the young duergar
Benefits:
(i) Daylight time sink removed at the cost of taking damage while moving in sunlight.
(ii) Ultra tanks/healers/scalers/casters can do their job in group in sunlight, albeit at reduced capacity and with increased danger.
Positive: ultra's see during the day
(i) During day let ultra's see in the room they are in (to allow fighting, meming, looting) but not into adjacent rooms.
Negative: large penalties for operating in daylight
(i) Stats are reduced to say, 75% of maximum while ultra is in sunlight.
(ii) Ultra doesn't regen hp's in sunlight (tho can be healed of course).
(iii) Each game hour (tic) in sunlight (while not fighting) the ultra loses 25% of current hps. After 8 game hours in sunlight duergar warrior will be down to around 100*(0.75)^8~10% of his starting hps.
eg. a 100hp duergar warrior while in sun, starts at 100hps then drops to (100*0.75)=75hp after first tic, (75*0.75)=57hp after second tic, (57*0.75)=42hps after 3rd tic etc.
(iv) Let old age reduce the effects of sunlight on ultras.. ie. the gnarled old drow is less affected by sun than the young duergar
Benefits:
(i) Daylight time sink removed at the cost of taking damage while moving in sunlight.
(ii) Ultra tanks/healers/scalers/casters can do their job in group in sunlight, albeit at reduced capacity and with increased danger.
lose hitpoints instead of not being able to see because of the sunlight? ... i just don't get it, i would hate that, couldnt walk anywhere in the sunny day then because would be half dead by the time i got there...
I think maybe you should be able to fumble around in your bag and find stuff in daylight, but honestly that is the only increase in darkie skills at day i would make.
I think maybe you should be able to fumble around in your bag and find stuff in daylight, but honestly that is the only increase in darkie skills at day i would make.
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Disoputlip
- Sojourner
- Posts: 956
- Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Copenhagen
I prefer the JRR Tolkien version when it comes to trolls.
sun = instant kill. (turned to stone) :wink:
No, to be honest i think ultravision is fine. Ultravision has been modified. More classes can now darken the sun. And that makes it fine.
As cleric i dont even mind speedwalking blind. if i get attacked i just recall.
/Disoputlip
sun = instant kill. (turned to stone) :wink:
No, to be honest i think ultravision is fine. Ultravision has been modified. More classes can now darken the sun. And that makes it fine.
As cleric i dont even mind speedwalking blind. if i get attacked i just recall.
/Disoputlip
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mynazzaraxxsyn
- Sojourner
- Posts: 479
- Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:00 pm
- Location: Ixarkon
- Contact:
Disoputlip wrote:if i get attacked i just recall.
Heh that is Artikerus' motto.
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
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