Experience. Please fix it.

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Dalar
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Experience. Please fix it.

Postby Dalar » Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:14 pm

I'm not asking for DS to be downgraded. IMHO the rate of exp we get at DS is barely tolerable. I don't enjoy spending countless hours doing experience to make a character zoneable and I'm sure it's a huge turnoff for anyone who's trying out this MUD.

Right now, DS is by far the easiest exp because the mobs are either rogue or classless. DS is also the best exp by far. I've tried elites, ship, and Randar (which is STILL not updated) and that exp is much harder due to classed mobs (warriors can riposte. my rogue almost died to an elite today).

My suggestions would be to:

1. Look at DS's exp and give ship/elites/Randar more exp than DS.
2. Give some sort of bonus in exp for fighting aggressive mobs.
3. Give some sort of bonus in exp for fighting multiple aggressive mobs.

I know some people are against making exp easier, but I really think if there was better exp for higher risk, the newer crowd would learn a little more about the MUD. Imagine an lvl 50 person who was raised off Tower or Randar's compared to someone in DS. They'll at least understand what it's like to fight aggressive mobs and how to run just in case someone screws up. In DS that never happens.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby gimaki » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:10 pm

I think it makes a lot more sense to lower the exp tables across the board, and cut the exps from DS drastically. That way you aren't forced to live in any "exp-zone". Would make all exps easier to get from places that actually teach you something of your char and the mud.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:27 pm

That's a good idea too. If they cut the exp tables they can weed out the new "high" exp zones.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Wobb » Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:52 pm

Exp is a problem. Bar none. I wish I had a quick solution for it. For those of you that sit on the mud 24/7 and dont have a problem with exp, you can pretty much ignore this post.

Ideas: (do one or some combo, not all of them)

Reduce Exp tables across the board.
Increase Exp for all mobs across the board.
Triple exp from zones like Jot, Musp, Scorps, etc...
Here's a crazy idea, make all classes earn exp at the same rate :P.

I never played AD&D, perhaps someone could (kindly) explain to me why exp tables are higher for mages? Maybe this question has been answered already if someone could post a link. Thanks.

Dealing with the 46+ problem. Initially I was in favor of making a curve on the exp scale. I am no longer in favor of this. I feel sorry for an enchanter trying to get 47 or higher, just so they can get that second dscale spell.

I have never tallied it but I'm sure people agree that if you play a mud and 90% of your time invested is exp and 10% is zoning...that sucks.

Wobb
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Postby gimaki » Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:55 pm

Wobb wrote:I never played AD&D, perhaps someone could (kindly) explain to me why exp tables are higher for mages? Maybe this question has been answered already if someone could post a link. Thanks.


I don't know about current editions, but the exp tables always used to be rogues<fighters<clerics<mages. Nowdays I think its all the same, but not sure (i.e. all these new fangled editions). This was based on the fact that high level magic users were drastically more powerful then melee types (and still are on this mud), but with all the new combat feats and such I think in D&D the playing field has leveled a bit. On Toril its still far in the casters favor. (i.e. a 46 enchanter can solo things a 46 warrior can't dream of (non-troll)).

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Postby Treladian » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:53 pm

Wobb wrote:I never played AD&D, perhaps someone could (kindly) explain to me why exp tables are higher for mages? Maybe this question has been answered already if someone could post a link. Thanks.


The old exp tables were really weird with different rates of increase needed per level. For some levels, mages leveled faster than fighters and then returned to requiring a lot more exp for instance. Rogues and bards pretty much always had an easy progression while rangers and paladins were almost as bad as mages.

In current editions of D&D, all exp progression is level, except for with some high powered races like drow, duergar, and tieflings, being considered a few levels about the sum of their class levels for exp purposes. A LOT was added to the combat classes, bards, and rogues to even the playing field, and though imbalances still exist in a few areas, every class is quite playable.
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Postby Silsaterur » Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:03 pm

gimaki wrote:
Wobb wrote:I never played AD&D, perhaps someone could (kindly) explain to me why exp tables are higher for mages? Maybe this question has been answered already if someone could post a link. Thanks.


I don't know about current editions, but the exp tables always used to be rogues<fighters<clerics<mages. Nowdays I think its all the same, but not sure (i.e. all these new fangled editions). This was based on the fact that high level magic users were drastically more powerful then melee types (and still are on this mud), but with all the new combat feats and such I think in D&D the playing field has leveled a bit. On Toril its still far in the casters favor. (i.e. a 46 enchanter can solo things a 46 warrior can't dream of (non-troll)).

Belle


I think that was a pretty accurate synopsys. Though, at low levels wizards would stand a good chance of being killed by a housecat in AD&D. With classes like the Elementalist floating around, exp kinda has to be segregated. In 3rd Edition, all classes have the same level advancement because they are all balanced (relatively) through all levels. Some multiclass combo's are broken however (the monk11/fighter9 with 6 attacks at +17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2)

I am actually starting up a new character and I had forgotten how mindnumbingly boring exp is. People say that it is to help teach you about your class... Yeah right, you learn about your class by zoning and grouping with others.

It's not like making exp go faster would hurt the mud. You could chop the exp tables in half and the difficulty of the mud would stay the same, you could even leave levels 41-50 the same.

More realistically though, it would make more sense to simply keep with the momentum of gaining experience. As you gain levels and fight harder monsters experience progression should feel roughly the same. The only thing that should change is that the fights will last slightly longer with about the same time inbetween resting (thanks to decreasing mem times). This would allow people to make it to level 41 in about a month and then the REAL game begins. I feel it is best to leave higher level exp (41+) much like it is, this way the endgame will stay mostly the same. Just make it so that zoning is more worthwhile expwise than it is... if a group completes JOT, it would be more rewarding than just 2-4% exp and a nifty t-shirt. ("I got frozen in JOT.")

There are quite a few arguements against lowering Exp tables, people who may feel cheated that they had to work so hard to get 50 and all these noobs have it so easy. The sooner the playability issues and balance issues are dealt with, the sooner more focus will be put on area growth and expansion of the world.

This is comming around to the season where the mud's pbase will be doing it's most groth for the year. For every new player you attract, you have the potential of attracting thier friends and so on and so forth. If you make the mud's worst element (having to exp) less painful, you will wind up with more people who try the game and stick around.
Last edited by Silsaterur on Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby fotex » Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:09 pm

Silsaterur wrote:There are quite a few arguements against lowering Exp tables, people who may feel cheated that they had to work so hard to get 50 and all these noobs have it so easy.


I have a feeling that if they lower XP tables across the board, people at lvl 50 will just have even larger "death buffers", so that they will have gained at least something. This should help prevent some of them from feeling cheated.
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Postby Sylvos » Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:50 pm

Lemme first state, yes I'm very aware that there are a lot of graphical options available for gaming, far more than were available in Toril/Sojourn's heyday. Yes that has certainly contributed to the decline in our playerbase.

That said, you have to look at the trend this MUD has gone in over the last 4-5 years. It has gotten progressively easier, with stronger defensive spells, better equipment, and more accessible and easy experience mobs. Many people have multiple high level characters, and many of them are very well equipped. It has been a constant cycle of dumbing down the game, making it simpler in an attempt to be appealing to new players.

Oddly enough, we have the lowest playerbase in history at the easiest point this MUD has been at ever. Don't you think that there's a link there?

Yeah, there's graphical games. Yeah, we as a population of players have grown up, have less time for marathon MUDding sessions and the easier gameplay certainly caters to that. But what it really does, ultimately, is make this game BORING after awhile. You complain about how exp is boring, mind-numbing. Well no shit when you've done it repeatedly for different characters.

You want to address a problem with the playerbase, with the repetitiveness of exp? Don't muck about with the tables to rush people to the high end game, let them enjoy the game in all its phases. Exp-granting quests with rewards scaled to the questers exp amount so they can't be farmed. Take away the lure of simple, easy experience so that the game can actually be PLAYED throughout, and not ignored while getting power-leveled up to 41+. Make this game difficult again, because easy gets boring and there aren't that many people coming to text-based games to support the turnaround of bored players vs. new players. The first levels should show the player what they're in for w/o penalty, but by the gods after you pass level 10 make thsi place difficult.

Because easy is what has dragged us down to this number of players. Easy is what has eroded the entertainment value of this game. Don't make it any easier, make it more engaging.
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Postby Sesexe » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:40 pm

Couldn't agree more Sylvos.

In fact the other day I was talking to a Torilmud newbie. They mentioned they liked this mud because it was harder then the one they had previously played. The other mud they were able to get level 50 in a week as their first character because exp was so easy. They then told me how because of this their character had no worth to them at all. They got bored and left.

I despise how Torilmud is catering only to the high end game now, and it's exp zones combined with the exp scales restructuring that has caused this.

Nuke the exp zones. Put exp back into zones where the fun is and can be had at all levels, because of the diverse number of zones made for various levels! And put the exp scales back the way they were, except for the first 10-15 levels.

Dalar, weren't you the one who was just bragging to Teyaha because he couldn't exp as mindnumbingly fast as you could? Now you think it's too slow? I seriously don't get it.
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Postby Silsaterur » Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:02 am

Y'know,

Now that I stop and think about it, you make some very valid points that I didn't take pause to concider...

I remembed when Soj came back for the third time. I quit my admin position on the realms and came back to Sojourn... Why? When I had played sojourn the first time, I had played for about a year, I had gotten to level 42 as a paladin (man did they SUCK hard) and I had actually done a lot. Explored far and wide to find things to do by myself or with friends who were willing to group with a paladin instead of a warrior. There was always so much more to do.

In the other mud, I got Iaiken up to level 50 in just under 5 weeks. With my know how and my new friends, I was able to have another 3 characters on the lv50 bandwagon. After a year however, Iaiken had all of the best gear a paladin could get, same with my wizard Fylistav... All that was left was to level a few new chars, or go do rp quests for prestige so that I could boost that EQ set even more. Soon after they made me an admin... I ran quests for the interguild quest council and kept an eye on the state of things between the nations/guilds.

I can't say that the mud was "easy" because many people struggled for months on end to hit 50 for the first time or to get a general idea where things were. I like to think that the difficulty of sojourn was what made the realms easy to me. When I heard about Soj3 I came running back simply because I reveled in the thought of a challenge, there was SO much I had yet to do!

Even now, with two charaters (lv 43 and 45) and all this time, there are 3 zones that I have never been to, tons of quest notes that I am still working on. Kokelei and I had SO much fun figuring out BGR, and the Zhentarim quests. We spent weeks bombing it around out east of waterdeep chasing leads.

With my new char's I haven't bothered with this part of the game, I just want to get them to lev 46 and zone with them. It's just that exp SUCKS SO BAD after having done two characters to thier mid 40's. Maybe things are only getting this bad because nobody I know is interested in mudding. Even I myself am waiting for world of warcraft to come out of beta... Though I am also interested in the new D20 MMORPG scheduled for release next spring...

Who knows...
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Postby Dalar » Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:37 am

I don't think this game is losing players because of its difficulty. I think it's losing players because nothing changes, there's no objective, or things stay broken.

- The last update was 2 weeks ago. There's nothing wrong with this if things are still being coded, but if things are ready to go and nothing happens, that's a big problem.

- The last zone put in was 3 months ago. I've seen the zone design process and it's not friendly at all. Most of the time I spent making a zone was just waiting for Dugmaren or Cyric to load something on test. If anyone has a question on how to fix something I can try to help btw :)

- Damage imbalance. I basically told a Paracs group we'd lose because we don't have invokers. It's just that simple. I've done the same in the past for certain fight. For many fights, 2 tanks, an enchanter, and a cleric is like a brick wall of defense. Without 1 invoker, you're pretty much hosed on offense.

- There's a wide gap between easy and difficult and risk vs reward in this MUD. Sure you can suit yourself up in GN and Musp gear and be almost as strong as someone with Tia/BC gear. That's why this game is so easy. There is no ladder of progression. You can do all the easy zones and deck yourself out.

I was hoping after the equipment changes that there would be some sort of ladder of progression in this game. All it did was put even more controversy in the equipment pool by basically hiding all the high ratio time/risk/reward equipment.

According to Sylvos, the pbase has dwindled because the MUD is getting easier. I disagree. I believe it has dwindled because there is no more objective anymore. Toril had hundreds of people. Why? Could it be that they all wanted to kill Tiamat? Tiamat was the end game back then. An objective, a goal. What do we have now? That joke zone Bronze Citadel? Give us something to strive for.

- Change BC to the ideas already laid out.
- Make the Hulburg equipment worth getting. I believe Hulburg is one of the hardest zones in game due to the horde of beholders. The equipment, however, doesn't match up to the risk OR time.
- Make the inner TTF worth doing. Right now, the zone is just a "let's twink the ring and belt" zone.
- Fix up a bunch of other zones that aren't done until late in boot.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby torkur » Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:53 am

A couple points from a zoner turned more casual player after reading all that.....

1) Dartan's mostly right on equipment, only easier zones should give equipment you can zone with up to the next tier or two of difficulty. Stuff like BC/Hulburg should just give eq for the elite that makes you wet your pants when you get it. Anyone remember trogar's doombringer? I always wanted my warrior to get to that equipment level even if it was hard as hell and involved the gods themselves....Now it's deemed "too powerful" for balance.....

2) As it stands now, most of the old zones equipment we all wore as noobs early in the wipe is not worth picking up off the ground with the current eq changes. It makes no sense and is not making it "hard," merely repetative to go to muspelheim 35 times to win what you need......that's boring and time consuming. This game has always been about the eq, your style, and how it looks for your RP, why make it so that 90% is literally labelled trash?

3) I have had many friends and family, who used to play here casually, quit with characters from lvl 50 on down not because it is so much easier now, but because the soloability and fun of small groups is gone. You wish to know where a lot of the playerbase went, there is a huge factor that I myself am slowly succumbing to. I played for 5 years here with a couple friends having fun under level 30. We explored, died, CRed, and found some awesome adventure in our eyes. You used to be able to have some fun with a group of 2-5 chars if you knew what you were doing. Now every zone and fight worth anything for xp or eq seems to be an 8 hour beholder/dragon filled boredom or as lame as DS xp. My warrior alt alone has killed 100 dragons and I used to be afraid of waking up Malice?! Just because it was twinkable for 5 people who have played 10 years, doesn't mean a group of 15 lvl 40 noobs wouldn't spank there for 12 hours straight like we all used to do. Making it anti-twink just means the 15 noobs go play Everquest instead.

4) All quests, items, and zones should not require 8 rares from fights 15 leet barely live through to make worth doing, especially spellquests. How does this make it worthwhile to explore instead of just get the notes from a friend? You can't gather the items yourself anyways for most quests or it's so hard to gather rare, random items it's just not worth the effort unless playing here is your second job. Spellquests should be soloable under 46 or at worst require a couple zone items and small groups. The same goes for some of the cool melee weapons and items under epic status (deathknell, avenger type being epics).


In general making things so that you don't have to beg the leet to help you leave your hometown would get a bunch more new people to bring 2 friends and explore the world without needing a handout. This would involve allowing some unbalancing for people who live on here, but allow people who play casually to do that: PLAY. As it stands now, things aren't harder, they're more boring and huge group oriented. That just doesn't fit with the playing styles of most people and it's why the playerbase has gotten this low. It's why I'm slowly spending less and less time myself here to match my friends and family. Let people have fun with any number of friends just like we all did years ago and is currently removed for "balance" so that everything is either high level or crap.
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Postby Areandon » Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:46 am

I couldn't have said it better myself Torkur.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:02 pm

I agree with a lot of what torkur said.

The point i disagree on most is the epic quests. The quest for both
the holy and unholy avengers (swords that prettymuch define a class
at this current point in the game) are plenty easy. Perhaps making
a COUPLE of the rares required for deathknell load a little more often
would be nice, but overall, the quest isn't too tough. The fight at the
end requres a decent group, yes, but that fight is not much harder
than the fight at the end of say, SF. Equipment isn't that big of an issue
except in places like BC, Hulburg. The thread here is about EXP.
Plz don't hijack
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Postby Gurns » Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:41 pm

Dalar wrote:According to Sylvos, the pbase has dwindled because the MUD is getting easier. I disagree. I believe it has dwindled because there is no more objective anymore. Toril had hundreds of people. Why? Could it be that they all wanted to kill Tiamat?

No. I was around then, and yes, Tiamat was some attraction, but no, there were very few people who were around just to kill Tiamat. As a matter of fact, when there were hundreds of people on, most of us didn't expect to ever get invited to join a Tiamat group. On the goodie side, during, say, Toril1, I'm sure that less than 100 different people ever participated in a Tiamat run, and it might have been no more than about 50 different people.

And those that were on primarily to kill Tiamat, you know what happened? They killed Tiamat, and then they left.
Dalar wrote:Give us something to strive for.

This may sound sarcastic, but I'm honestly curious: You are saying that the only reason people stay here is because of something harder to strive for. Why, then, are you still here? You've done all the hard zones. You've done all the quests. You have all the top gear. You've killed Tiamat. If you're striving to beat the game, I assume that those things are how you'd define beating the game, so you've won. And you'd did it as of, what, a year ago?

It's not only you, this is true of many of the lvl 50s. Are you all logging on, several to many hours a week, and really just waiting around until the new, revamped Tiamat goes in, so you can kill her and then stop playing?
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Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:11 am

agre pretty much 100% with dalar

agree pretty much with sylvos... game can be too easy at times because of sneak+hide+fold, all the defensive spells, anti caster spells... and it can be too hard at times because of procs that dont take player "skeelz" into account (might as well bring 15 boobs).

but really, the lack of pbase is the problem.. there is a severe lack of competition, you get grouped only slightly less than a great cleric if your a shitty cleric or an afk zoner. You can afk and idle cuz if you get a tell, chances are you'll get a tell later too. There are lots more zones so less competition for zones, there are far less players so more eq per player...

I think making the hard zones worth doing would be a great step in the right direction... start with BC, Hulburg, TTF and put Tiamat back in.

Lately, I pretty much have been having to get my thrills off writing scripts for my characters.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Dalar » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:29 am

why do i still play? well, I don't like EQ and I'm waiting for WoW. while i play, i do strive to make the top notch equipment set and the best race/class selections while I still can. I'm waiting for the next tiamat and for things to be fixed. eventually, i will grow tired and move on, but I don't know when exactly.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Wobb » Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:12 am

Not to be rude sylvos...but you could toss a daisy in the air and blame that for the pbase decline. The fact is no matter what you do or say these are all "guesses". What initially drove people away...a year or 2 years ago? Shit like the new res quest (which everyone is now adjusted to). changes come in 2 forms, those that cater to the hardcore gamer, and those that cater to the mediocre. Obviously, as a game owner, you cater to the hardcore crowd.

I didn't mention a thing about declining pbase and could honestly care less, Pbase will fluctuate no matter what you do...all I was saying is...exp sucks, and there is no reason now for a curved exp table, where 46+ is harder.

Wobb
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:20 am

Actually the pbase probably started it's decline when the mud shut down for a year...
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Postby Sesexe » Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:30 pm

Dalar,

I'm sorry this got a little long, but a lot of what you said reallly made me think. I thought back to when I seriously lost the thrill and interest in this mud. It comes down to one moment.

When the EQ changes happened.

When I saw a large portion of the regular evil playing pbase just drop off the face of the earth.

When I saw how all my hard work over the last 2 years got reduced to mediocre eq, I've since not felt any overwhelming desire to zone. I'll zone. Help folks out, maybe bid on an item here or there, but there is absolutely no thrill associated with any of it anymore.

I don't think it's just because the game became too easy, I think you are correct in your assessment that.. all the gear is so even. There is no eq progression anymore. It's all almost the same now.

And since everything I had worked hard for was stripped from me in the course of a couple of months, I feel like it could happen again at any moment. So what's the point of trying to acquire an item you think is good then?

Maybe there is or isn't one?

Sorry, but I just wish the thrill was back. When some things were worth more then other things, instead of everything being equally worthless.
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Postby Kegor » Thu Apr 01, 2004 2:23 pm

I don't know, I think that a good part of the zone eq changes were a good move on the part of the areas staff. A couple awesome top end zones, such as BC and Hulburg kinda got wrongly hosed imo though. I would like to see a few more rounds of smaller tweaks and changes to specific trouble spots such as those, but who knows what the master plan is. In any even it will just take some time for some people to adjust to these changes.

- Sesexe said... "I despise how Torilmud is catering only to the high end game now, and it's exp zones combined with the exp scales restructuring that has caused this."

How can you have a mud that hasn't been pwiped in, what is it 4 years now? not be catering to the high end game? There is also plenty of exp to be had in certain zones that can be done with small groups, but exp zones are quite a bit faster and less risky to level in, especially for the less experienced players (which is why they are used so often as we all know). I would also like to see zones modified to offer better exp rewards as well in a move to make the more safe and mindless exp worth less vs zones without downgrading anything. That would be quite a project for our areas staff as it is, but I think it would be a good direction to take.

- Dalar said... "- The last zone put in was 3 months ago. I've seen the zone design process and it's not friendly at all. Most of the time I spent making a zone was just waiting for Dugmaren or Cyric to load something on test."

I couldn't agree more. I know Cyric and Dug are busy people with RL and whatnot and you can't blame them for that. One of the best moves Cyric ever made here imo was to allow Dug to do what he does. I think that Cyric could probably be a little less picky about who he allows to write zones, though. I am still a little confused and disappointed that I was denied the ability to write another zone for the mud after completing my zone about 3 years ago. I have always felt that more constant additions to the mud in the way of zones would keep the game fresh for everyone, regardless of how long they have mudded here. There are zone additions as we all know, but I personally would like to see new ones added far more often.
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Postby kiryan » Sat Apr 03, 2004 8:21 am

Sesexe wrote:When the EQ changes happened.

When I saw a large portion of the regular evil playing pbase just drop off the face of the earth.

When I saw how all my hard work over the last 2 years got reduced to mediocre eq, I've since not felt any overwhelming desire to zone. I'll zone. Help folks out, maybe bid on an item here or there, but there is absolutely no thrill associated with any of it anymore.


I was irritated that 7 years of accumulated knowledge was surreptiously erased. I know you guys felt the need to do it, but I think it did as much harm as it did good, and I don't believe there was no other way.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Viclor » Tue Apr 06, 2004 8:50 am

I've been playing off/on for about 3 years here, and the major problem I see is immortal/player communication.

This post is the perfect example. Plenty of very good points and suggestions, but none of them will be taken in to mind or even thought about by an imm. They are either too drastic and the imms don't want that, or don't have the manpower to code it out.

Of course some players thnk that the mud is perfectly fine, and needs no changes as of right now.
thats when you bite it off, viclor. then tell him you shoulda paid 100 instead.

Nilan :)
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:32 pm

I look at _every_ thread, I promise. If nothing else I do it to get rid of the silly red dot next to new threads. But every thread gets looked at, and I do evaluate in my mind the feasibility of different ideas proposed.

I do not however, respond to each one. Especially as anything I code has to clear through Shevarash first; without his green light nothing I say here would matter.
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Postby Wobb » Wed Apr 07, 2004 4:07 am

The mud needs a pwipe...i dont know when...but now is good a time as any.

Yes people in the middle of 8 month quests will be pissed, but that didn't stop you from downgrading eq that took me 3 years to get.

The caste separation is ever vigilant and ever-growing. The elite are more elite and everyone else is guarding fountains. How long before you give-in to the inevitable?

Wobb
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Postby Dalar » Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:00 am

PWIPE!
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby ssar » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:49 am

ack! no pwipe!
this has been discussed at length over the past couple of years, and the overwhelming majority of players indicated they dont want a pwipe for at least a very long time.
geez theres so many balance/melee/eq tweaks and improvements they need to finalize, theres the ongoing RP campaigns, various zone improvements (as mentioned mny times in various threads - magma anyone?) and of course Tiamat that needs to be re-implemented well before any serious hint of a pwipe, surely.
BEER
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:30 pm

I think everybody already knows my position on this, and can already guess that I'm in full agreement with Sylvos. The reason I fell so hard for this game, the reason it was SO addictive, was because it was a challenge. It had a high difficulty, quests were kept secret and finishing a quest meant you had to earn it, and on top of that there was a much stronger roleplay atmosphere in every aspect of the game and players were expected to meet a higher standard.

If you do something you enjoy and you set a goal within that activity, then there are good odds you'll stick with that activity until that goal is met. If it's more difficult to meet that goal, then you'll have to stick with it longer, and if there's a great deal of challenge to meeting the goal and therefore a greater deal of satisfaction and a higher feeling of accomplishment upon achieving the goal, then there's greater odds you might set another goal within the same sphere. If, however, you reach the goal with little challenge and feel very little accomplishment from it, most people will move on to a different activity. People who enjoy rockclimbing don't achieve a great deal of satisfaction from climbing the jungle gym at the corner park. Whatever genre, the easier something is, the fewer true afficiandos you'll be able to attract to it.
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Postby Areandon » Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:50 pm

Ashiwi,

Xp is not difficult, it just takes a while. Getting to lvl 50 requires no skill whatsoever, it takes a crapload of time. The point several people I think are making is that it xp should be more fun, and doable for someone who doesn't mud 8 hours a day. This does not necessarily mean they want the mud to become easier.

Lowering the xp-tables will make part of the mud "easier", or it will mean you will level 50 faster in any case. After that nothing changes. The reason a lot of people want to do this is two-fold:

a) The mud is utterly boring before you get to zone or quest, which is partly because the pbase is too low, and partly because all low level items got nerfed to hell.
b) The mud needs to be somewhat viable for soloing people.

Making xp easier is only a part of the solution.
It will only work in combination with bringing back eq progression, making eq zones harder and more interesting, and make the game more viable for casual players. Let me refer to Torkur's post again.
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Postby Verarb » Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:59 pm

PWIPE!
Wobb = Smith
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Postby Gormal » Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:25 pm

It'd be interesting to see a pwiped version of the game up alongside the non-pwiped one, just to see how many people would play from the start for fun. I don't know about everyone else but I rarely choose New+ when I'm playing console games.
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Postby Viclor » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:34 pm

What hit the pbase hard were the eq changes. Plain and simple.

And exp is not too hard, hell, I'm level 31 with just 4 days ptime.

Less whining/complaining about xp, and more actual xping is what the sub-50 players need to do.
thats when you bite it off, viclor. then tell him you shoulda paid 100 instead.



Nilan :)
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Postby Sesexe » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:45 pm

Jaznolg, how can you have a game that's been going for relatively 10+ years and doesn't have more zones directed at mid and low levels?
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Postby Dalar » Thu Apr 08, 2004 12:26 am

easy, just do exp till you're high level then do all the high level content. why do you think EQ just makes expansions for 50+ and not 30-40?

Gormal wrote:It'd be interesting to see a pwiped version of the game up alongside the non-pwiped one, just to see how many people would play from the start for fun. I don't know about everyone else but I rarely choose New+ when I'm playing console games.


can the machine handle 3 instances of the mud at the same time? if it can, can we have a pwiped version of the mud where all new zones go to this one?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Lirela » Thu Apr 08, 2004 5:54 am

Rather than making xp quicker, I’d like to see the fun put back into it. When I first started playing I spent all my time in one of 5 different places, each one presenting different challenges and teaching something different about the mud. We ran into wandering aggro mobs, patrolling guards, and learned about timing the pop, getting the bash off in time, silences, and what to do in case “it” hits the fan. Instead, we now have zones like SSC, monestary, ship, DS, smoke plane. There aren’t any aggressive mobs, no wandering things, no danger, little challenge. “It” is very unlikely to hit the fan, even if one or more members of the group are AFK. Also, if the mud wants to cater to a large pbase, we need enough places offering decent experience to allow more than 2-3 groups to go at any given level. No one wants to kill 5 things and then stand around waiting for a repop. Also, lots of people like to have several 50th level characters but complain about doing the same things over and over. With more xp zones to choose from, people who like to plevel as many characters as possible can have a more tolerable journey.

Lack of challenge, lack of game education, lack of diversity.. these are what make experience mindless, boring and repetitive. In my opinion, if you solve these issues you’ll see fewer people complaining about experience.

Players can help a lot by changing their attitudes. So many people make being level 50 their goal, and they don’t have fun on the way there. Try something else. Learn a new class inside out. Don’t take handouts and don’t give all your high level eq to your new lowbie, work for your equipment. Go get experience in Trollbark or Rogath Swamp or along Dusk Road, Skull Road, or wherever else you can find to go. No, the experience isn’t going to be as good there as it is in DS, but it will be far more interesting and diverse. It may take you five times longer, but if you have to work for your success, you’ll enjoy it a lot more than having it handed to you. (I realize one statement from me isn’t going to make many people change their mindset about the game, but it might be a nudge in the right direction.)

One thing the imms can do to help this second point is to implement more zones for lower level groups. Characters under level 40 have very little to do in the way of zoning, and when they get to a level where they can go to the easier zones they don’t know what to do. The current xp zones (SSC, monestary, ship, DS, smoke) don’t prepare them for it. I think one reason for the equipment changes was to make it possible for more of a ladder of progression, but the main reason we don’t see that ladder is because there are only two or three zones I can think of where anyone under level 46 can go or get invited to regularly. Once we see more mid-level zones, there will be a better progression of equipment balance and more people who know what the hell to do in the hardest zones that have been going in lately.

In summary..
1) Xp areas should be more challenging, more educational, more diverse.
2) We need more places to get experience so there is less competition for the good mobs and less time waiting for repops.
3) Players can help by taking responsibility for finding their own fun, rather than depending on the gods to implement the fun for you. If what you’re doing isn’t fun, find some other way to do it or find something else to do.
4) We need more mid-level zones to help educate new players about zoning, make a more defined ladder of eq progression, and give players a level goal where they can feel useful to groups earlier than level 46.

I’m sorry this got a little long and a little preachy, but it was important to me that it be said. I don’t post often, so you can deal with a post that’s a little long once in a while.

Lirela
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Postby Mielikki » Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:52 pm

Just a note on why I made DS:

It is an exp zone but I always wanted players to learn a few new tricks that I was not seeing in other zones....so I put in several casters that are bashable to that players do have to learn to keep a mob down. I also put in several mobs that are none bashable so players have to learn to deal with switching mobs (using spells to prevent this or learning to rescue/flee). I also put in some mobs that assist, so that players might have the chance to deal with more then 1 mob occasionally. I decided to skip the baby agro mobs (like we have in the tower) cause fifteen minutes into doing exp you would PWB or trap the baby mobs in rooms (which is exactly what used to happen).

I did create the zone for exp, but also to try and teach players how to deal with some situations that were not that present in some other exp zones.

As for the request for more exp zones, the areas sphere has given 4 or 5 new exp places in the last couple of years, and people complain that there are too many of them, and that there are not enough. I'm sorry that we can't have it both ways.

There is a lot of thought that goes into making zones, perhaps not enough spell checking in some gods cases, but lots of thought and energy.

Your thoughts and ideas are always welcome, so keep the ideas and request coming.
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Postby Sesexe » Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:05 pm

I remember when doing jot grid for exps was the bomb, and you felt like you won the lottery to be going there and doing it. Talk about exciting and making you learn a lot! And I don't mean sitting in brimir's and sending a lurer out to be sumoned back. I mean.. walking the grid and doing stuff.

That's what I'd like to see more of. That's why I want to see zone exp increased dramatically, or exp zone/grid exp downed to shambles.

I guess I'm kinda curious if people would do 'hard' exp zones nowadays anymore, or if that's pointless now? Are folks only going to put themselves at risk if there is an eq reward?
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Postby Gura » Fri Apr 09, 2004 4:34 am

just to throw my thought out on why the pbase has declined. I think a large cause of this decline in players was because essentially the game was beaten. We did the hardest zones, we did tiamat 2x, we were all decked out and there were no more zones to do. How many times can you do the same zone that takes 4 hours before u get sick and tired of it? I'm not blaming anyone and this is in no way a flame but it happens with time. Is a wipe the answer? I'm not sure honestly, it could bring a lot of players back or it could dig the mud's grave.
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Postby Kossuth » Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:34 pm

Enough with the accusations and flaming. Note that I am not blaming anyone in particular for this, so don't start.

This post is about experience and people's ideas on changing how it works.

Stop threadjacking relevant discussions of game matters so you can gripe about things or make fun of each other.

If you can't handle that simple request, you should fully expect your posts to get removed.
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:46 pm

i dont think a pwipe would be in everyone's best interest. i think less than 15% of the muds pbase actually posts here so clearly not everyone opinion is heard, but i'm sure it would be against a pwipe.

some folks will work hardcore to get their toons to 50, because once they get there they want to just relax and have fun with the rest of the game. it's not a pleasant process, so we shouldnt put anyone through it again if only a minority wants a pwipe.

the idea of a pwipe server (or pwipe'd instance ont he same server, however that works) would be great for the powergamers here who have done everything already.

DS is great as it. it's inaccessible without annoyance to dayblind races, so clearly not everyone gets to take advantage of it. I would like to see other zones such as ship have their xp upped to be more in line. I get more xp at level 49 from one giant the ni get from soloing captain miplit, that doesnt seem right to me.

i woud like to see xp from level 1-20 made even easier, so that new playes will get hooked early on. yes, some players prefer a challenge. the real challenge in this game is being able to get all the things you want, and go to all the places you want. that doesnt happen at level 5.
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Postby Gura » Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:47 pm

holy hell my post didnt get deleted....i must have been constructive or something...wtf is wrong with this world now?
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Apr 11, 2004 1:08 am

I would have to disagree with making exp from 1-20 easier. as it stands now it's pretty simple. there are a few choice classes like enchanter and illusionist that have a hard time that low, perhaps even clerics, but any melee class shouldn't have much difficulty. i see these levels as CORE for learning the basics of the game. making them easier would just put them an even more difficult journey from 20 on, as exp was so easy before it, and now they are even less experienced and skilled than they would have been had it remained the same. the only people i see benefiting from this are those who already know the game. also, with the equipment being handed to noobs, it is making leveling infinately easier as it is. i see no need to change exp, especially 1-20.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Sun Apr 11, 2004 3:23 am

Delmair Aamoren wrote:but any melee class shouldn't have much difficulty.


The early levels are the only time that melee is worth a damn. When I see people leveling up mage/cleric alts they look like rangers running around. At the early levels spells take too long to mem/do too little damage.
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Postby Teyaha » Sun Apr 11, 2004 4:27 am

it's easier for us delmair because we know exactly where to go, who to talk to and waht to use.

for someone that's totally new this is not the case. just last week i helped an ogre out..he didnt know how to wear items and wield swords. he kept asking why shortcutnames didnt work with the stuff i was giving him.

i'm sure th enewbie area revamp will address this, but until then being a real newbie here can be an unappealing challenge for some.
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Postby Silsaterur » Sun Apr 11, 2004 2:55 pm

Hrm... how to increase exp AND groupability...

As it stands, when the vets start over it is WAY faster to do exp solo in your twinked out gear. How about making exp in groups a little more worth it and running around soloing?

It's really a simple principle that can be easy to code and degrades as groups get into the zoning sizes. So now it is time for some basic math.

Let Number of Group Members be n, let exp be x and let indevidual exp be represented bu the equation i = x(n/(3(n-2/n))).

When you have 2 people grouped, they will gain 2/3rds (66.6%) exp instead of half. When you step it to 3 they will gain 3/7ths (43%) exp and when 15 people group they will gain 15/45ths (roughly 33%) the exp.

Why would it work rp-wise? Because it shows that teamwork teaches you a little more than just bombing it around by yourself swinging your sword or casting spells (whichever the case may be) at whatever you see moving.

Why does it work balancewise? Most exp groups number between 2(Smoke and DS) and 6(low lev ship groups) and the formula works out best for groups of these sizes. It also makes it so that

Why does it work mechanic-wise? People like other people, so if you make it worth a high-levels time to group his lowbie alt with some green player they'll probably both have more fun and the new guy will learn a lot more than if he was running around BGR by himself alone. At high levels it still works as it satisfies peoples want for zone exp. Instead of getting 7% exp in a group of 15, they will recieve 33%. This also means that exp can be brought down a significant amount across the board. Thus making mob exp worth more unified and realistic. I mean, how much can one of those silly vines in DS really be worth?

Any game with a social structure needs to promote grouping and being sociable. If sojourn comes across to a new player as a friendly and welcoming atmosphere then game difficulty will not matter. How many of you came back to sojourn to play along side old friends and how many just came back for the game? I know I was a part of the first group.

This is just one suggestion and I am open to criticism, but I just went with the notion of K.I.S.S. (Keep it Simple Stupid).

Of course, I've not figured a way for this formula to work for all values from 1 to infinite and keeping all points on the curve, it fluxuates at n = 1 or -1 and !div0 at n =0.

It's got a few weaknesses such as it's percent gain is represented by a very wide parabola. However this makes it so that at mid/high levels we can go by the old addage, "the more the merrier as each indevidual will only lose half a percentage of exp.

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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:58 pm

Teyaha wrote:it's easier for us delmair because we know exactly where to go, who to talk to and waht to use.


Where that is a completely true statement, shouldn't it be something that newbies figure out on their own? i mean the logical progression, once they go east of town, is to kill little things there. continue east and you find... slightly bigger things! oh, then there is BGR. oh wow, more stuff.
I solo'd there from 1-30 something without any difficulty as a melee class.
and no, back then we didn't have deathknell. EXP has not been INCREASED in recent times, and the mud has survived for how long? why decrease it now?
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xp tables

Postby irta » Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:40 pm

In addition to fixing the xp mobs give you, xp tables should be fixed as well. Since the imms are making all the classes "balanced" (which I'm assuming means balanced for level 50s), xp tables should all be the same at 50. Hard part of course is what to do about all the other levels, a level 10 voker is far from balanced with a level 10 warrior for example (affecting both soloing and the vokers ability to get xp group invites) but the voker still needs more xp to level. Before the level 10 voker could think at the end of the road I'll be more powerful, but since he'll now be balanced with the warrior once they are both 50 something else needs to be done.

Some options
1) Give him more powerful spells (not out of the question but possibly"unbalancing" later on depending on how it is handled).
2) Make his xp to level at 10 a lot less then the warriors at 10 so that they both level at approximately the same rate.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:54 pm

Ok. i'm not quite sure i followed the preceeding post. You suggesting, once balance is complete, to make invokers more powerful than warriors? isn't that, in itself, unbalancing?!

If your argument is to make exp tables the same for everyone hands down. hey, i even agree with that. i think enchanters and clerics have a tough road. rogues and invokers are relatively easy in comparison, as they get exp from damage. and a LOT of exp from damage from what i've seen. i do think enchanters and clerics would get played more often if it wasn't so durn hard to level em. The rest of your post i was unable to follow.
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Postby Grogu » Tue Apr 13, 2004 6:44 pm

I dunno, I played soj1 way back when, and I had a paladin and druid. Neither were over level 40, and I had a ton of fun playing it. I came back to soj3 because a friend asked me to. I was basically starting fresh, because most of what I remembered was moved or changed slightly.

I started off with Grogu, dwarf cleric, and as I leveled I looked more like a ranger than your typical high-level priest (hp gear/ac/savers decked). In fact, I still looked like a ranger when I finally reached the zoning level. I don't think I really started getting more hp gear up until I got resurrect. Now then, how was the exp progression throughout all of this?

Levels 1-20 were hard. I spent weeks joining in groups and casting healing spells, memming, using that awesome 13/7 hit/dam I had. I had some help, but for the most part I had BGR/WD eq. 21-40 were pretty easy. Once I got heal and vit, I was moved into ship groups and tower groups, and once I hit 36+ it was smoke exp. 41+ was pretty easy as well. No zones going on? Grab a voker and do smoke! I'd do 5 hours of smoke exp just so that I could get _that_ much closer to obtaining resurrect, the ultimate ascension of a cleric. The spell that usually decides whether or not you're accepted to go zoning for a cleric. (at least, back then not every cleric had resurrect)

Once I got resurrect and plane shift, zoning happened a lot more, my eq changed to having more hp, and suddenly the character got boring. I had pretty good eq, I had well over level 51 exp, and I had my quest spells done. There's about two zones now that I haven't been to, and Tiamat is still out of the question for me due to "reworking." What's left?

So I started up another character. This time an enchanter, because I realized that groups need clerics and enchanters to function properly, otherwise death is a much higher probability. I also made a rogue because I've always had fun playing a rogue. Now, both of these characters are level 50, equipped, and I don't play them as much.

People who say challenge isn't really the reason why the pbase dropped seriously need to get kicked. Once you conquer something, you need a new threat, a new evil to grind your boot heel into. People play video games because they progress to be more challenging. Once you finish, either the game makers come out with an expansion, or a new game entirely. What else is left once you know you you've reached the "end?"

There's still a lot of quests I haven't done. And there's still a few pieces of equipment I wouldn't mind getting, but should I ever get those items... what's left to do? Maybe convince people to call me MiniDalar? Maybe make another character to deck out?

Screw making exp easier.

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