Regarding Druid Changes

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Verarb
Sojourner
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Regarding Druid Changes

Postby Verarb » Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:43 pm

Hallo
This is addressed to anyone who wants to comment. Feel free
I guess im kinda PO'd about the basically more than 50% downgrade of doom. I've seen the druid class which i thought was the Most balanced class available, take huge hits over the past year or two.
The last recent huge hit was sunray royally forked to the point of uselessness.
With the introduction of Fold druds took another hit. The same argument can possibly be applied to that new squid group tele spell.
Now i have yet to hear anyone bitch that druids were overpowered. If you all think it is id be interested to hear the reasons.
Yet i continually hear reasons why the mud is unbalanced (Vokers) and not one thing was done about the specific class in question.
Where does ths leave druids really?. The two class defining spells nerfed Hard when i havent heard any arguments stating they were overpowered. Its really disheartening to see one of the Most balanced and fun classes die. They really have no role in a group anymore.
In terms of group area damage i betcha in, say jot gatehouse, ONE druid will get at most 4 dooms off and contribute to a fraction of the damage done, maybe 15% and thats optimistic and before doom changes.
Just remove them from the roller, i cant stand to see them die a slow death.
Verarb
Sojourner
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Verarb » Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:45 pm

PS if it aint broke dont fix it
Delmair Aamoren
Sojourner
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Contact:

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:07 pm

Seeing has how druid damage is somewhat nerfed in non-nature
rooms, i really had no problem with old doom damage. Creeping
doom was by far THE most damaging spell in DnD. somethin like
100d4 + 500 dmg or somethin crazy like that. With oldschool HP's
and no way to wear +hp gear. Granted it moved HELLA slow and
lots of things could outrun it... but still. No need to nerf it imho, but
perhaps i don't see things as the imms do...
fotex
Sojourner
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 12:23 am

Postby fotex » Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:42 pm

Unfortunately, DnD wasn't a well-balanced game - nor do these things translate in a balanced way :( from DnD to the mud....
User avatar
Shevarash
FORGER CODER
Posts: 2944
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 6:01 am

Postby Shevarash » Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:47 pm

While its true that nobody has complained much about druid area damage, I have heard plenty of complaints about area damage in general. Regardless, changes are made based on the staff's vision of balance on the MUD...player comments and complaints are taken into account of course, but they are hardly the deciding factor on what gets coded.

For the record - previous to this change, doom was by far the most powerful damage spell - outclassing even inferno by a very substantial amount. After this change, doom is STILL the most poweful damage spell, but in close competition with inferno...possibly almost tied with it depending on how you look at it. While its true that it now has a saving throw to reduce damage (like every other spell), that save is called for each "wave" of the spell...meaning that a mob has to save 3x in a row to get the saem reduction it would get from saving just once from a normal spell. In short, its still an incredibly powerful spell, and its damage was not reduced anywhere near 50%.

I assure you that the current trend of tweaking area spells is not being done willy nilly or without forethought...on the contrary, I have done a tremendous amount of research and data compilation to accurately evaluate the sources and amount of area damage dealed out by each class. In addition, I authored the spell damage engine that we use, as well as set the damage for every spell we have so I'm intimately familiar with how this all works...and in truth I've been tweaking it for the last 5 years. I'll get it right soon - thanks for your patience. :)
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
Mitharx
Sojourner
Posts: 475
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:01 am
Location: St. Louis, MO, 63129

Postby Mitharx » Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:45 am

I have faith.

The Undead Anti-defamation league . . . You can't keep a good corpse down.
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:37 pm

I think the reason so many druids are upset is because doom doesn't work on anything that requires magical weapons to hit... whereas inferno doesn't work on fire elementals. I believe people spend much more time fighting immaterial mobs than fighting fire elementals. (If the fire ellies are immaterial, of course doom won't work on them either.)

Of course, invokers are supposed to be the primary damage class and druids are not. This is not an argument in favor of restoring doom, just an explanation of why druids are peeved.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'
Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'
Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Birile
Sojourner
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Birile » Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:46 pm

I'm not anti-Druid or anything, but I think Mori hit the nail on the head. An invoker's primary purpose in life is to nuke. Frankly, if I had an invoker and I knew that Doom had done more damage than Inferno before the tweak I would have been seriously upset. Invokers do not get any sort of heal spell. Invokers do not get any kind of pet. Invokers don't transport as well as druids do (gate/relocate vs. planeshift/moonwell). And they don't get the utility spells that druids get either. Druids are a much more well-rounded class by far than invokers. Yeah, it's fun to blow stuff up but damn, we all can't get that luxury. Do I wish my elementalist's lava burst did the damage inferno (or doom) does? Hell yes, but I would take the stone skin, chance to permanently blind a mob and a pretty awesome pet tank (as far as pet tanks go) over inferno's damage anyday. We just can't always have our cake and eat it, too. Life would get severely boring after awhile. In the end, Doom still rocks hard, if not quite as hard as it used to. And Druids still rock hard, too, for that matter.
Verarb
Sojourner
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Verarb » Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:52 pm

Invokers were upset about druids outdamaging them? when did this happen?.
And i think its a great idea, get rid of pshift/moonwell and give us gate/relo instead, ill take it.
PS upgrade doom.
And shev if a mob saves every wave which is likely for level 50+ mobs and add the damage downgrade isnt it less than 50% damage?.
Last edited by Verarb on Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Verarb
Sojourner
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Verarb » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:01 pm

Hrm bleh who cares, whatever happen happens but hate ta see druids which werent overpowered to begin with become like the the bards rangers of old. Just give em all artis and it be alright
Birile
Sojourner
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Birile » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:04 pm

I never said invokers were upset, V. I said that if I were an invoker and if it had been known that Doom put out more damage than Inferno, I would have been upset. In essence, my opinion is and remains, that if anyone should have been seriously upset about the damage difference between Inferno/Doom at any point in time, it should have been Invokers, not Druids.

Yeah, it sucks that your main damage spell got downgraded. But come on, don't you think that if any one spell should do more damage than any other spell it should have belonged to an Invoker? I think some of us may be missing the forest for the trees here. :)[/i]
Verarb
Sojourner
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Verarb » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:12 pm

Hrm not really i see the forest = total damage output.
Its simplistic to think that because doom outdamages inferno that means vokers are outclassed damage wise. (Laugh). So why should vokers be upset?. Its like saying BS does more damage than forcemissles and be downgraded. Hunh?
What your're talking about Birile is a voker being upset about pipi size which they shouldnt.
Its all good, i see shapchange dragon in the future that'll make it alright
Depok
Sojourner
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Postby Depok » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:58 pm

Verarb's form shimers until he transforms into a powerful red dragon!

Verarb's powerful wing buffet slams the jot gate guard into the nearest wall.
The jot gate guard is stunned.
Verarb's powerful wing buffet slams the jot gate guard into the nearest wall.
The jot gate guard is stunned.
Verarb's powerful wing buffet slams the jot gate guard into the nearest wall.
The jot gate guard is stunned.
Verarb's powerful wing buffet slams the jot gate guard into the nearest wall.
The jot gate guard is stunned.
Verarb's powerful wing buffet slams the jot gate guard into the nearest wall.
The jot gate guard is stunned.
Verarb's powerful wing buffet slams the jot gate guard into the nearest wall.
The jot gate guard is stunned.
Verarb's powerful wing buffet slams the jot gate guard into the nearest wall.
The jot gate guard is stunned.
Verarb's powerful wing buffet slams the jot gate guard into the nearest wall.
The jot gate guard is stunned.

The room is turned into an oven as Verarb Breathes magic fire

A Jot Gate Guard is turned into a charcoal briquette!
A Jot Gate Guard is turned into a charcoal briquette!
A Jot Gate Guard is turned into a charcoal briquette!
A Jot Gate Guard is turned into a charcoal briquette!
A Jot Gate Guard is turned into a charcoal briquette!
A Jot Gate Guard is turned into a charcoal briquette!
A Jot Gate Guard is turned into a charcoal briquette!
A Jot Gate Guard is turned into a charcoal briquette!

Verarb receives his share of experience.
Verarb
Sojourner
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Verarb » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:03 pm

That was farkkin awesome
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:28 pm

Ya know, if they'd halved all spell damage from 7th circle and above accross the board like I've been suggesting, doom would still be doing more damage then inferno.


Can't wait for my downgrades! :D Bet they'll be spiffy!
Birile
Sojourner
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Birile » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:41 pm

I disagree. Give all of an invoker's damage spells and given all of a druid's damage spells, of COURSE an invoker does more damage in the long run. I'm simply saying that the idea that a druid can and should be allowed to do more damage with their top-end damage spell than an invoker does with theirs is just plain silly. The essence of an invoker is to do damage. A druid deals in nature, whether it be healing, damage, transport, whatever. To say that since an invoker does more damage with all of their spells in the long run, thus druids should not have their main damage spell downgraded to be equal in total output to that of the invoker's main damage spell--THAT is simplistic and makes no sense.

Likewise, your analogy of backstab and force missiles is off the mark for one simple reason. We're talking about SPELL DAMAGE, not melee. A rogue's backstab does insane damage compared to all other forms of melee in regards to the amount of damage capable of being done in one hit to one target because one of a rogue's main functions is TO DO DAMAGE. Comparing the damage output of a melee ability to a spell has no bearing on the argument at hand unless you want to look at the big picture and realize that the changes to spells that are being made are due to an impending overhaul of some sort to balancing melee with spell damage--if that's even possible.

Again, yeah it sucks to get downgraded in any area whatsoever but it really just boggles my mind that one caster class is upset that their big 10th circle damage spell now "only" does about the same damage as an INVOKER'S 10th circle damage spell.
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:52 pm

As an Invoker,
It didn't bother me to find out that doom was doing more then inferno, because doom is limited on its targets. V and B, you both have valid points in this debate, but honestly, I can pump out more inferno's faster then a druid can dream of getting dooms out, plus I hit a wider range of mobs. So not really worried about it. If any vokers are suddenly upset upon learning that doom was doing more then inferno, then that's their ego talking.


As a Lich,
If Doom is doing more then Rot or was, then I'll be upset, and glad it got toned down. (I don't know if it does or did or whatever.)
Depok
Sojourner
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Postby Depok » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:55 pm

Verarb wrote:That was farkkin awesome


Glad you liked it :P

Put a smile on my face just posting it.
Verarb
Sojourner
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Verarb » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:56 pm

the point of the downgrade was balance area damage right? not to appease vokers who werent upset to begin with, dammit vokers speak up. im just saying it dont make sense to dgrade the druid side of it, thats not the main culprit. if yer gonna downgrade it across the board fine. But lemme just say, back when melee was overpowered doom was the same, been the same forever.
I still dont understand you birile. What is the big deal about having that one spell outdamage inferno?. Im pretty sure it has a faster cast time and you can spit more of em out. BTW doom kinda has more limitations to it than inferno and minus the coldshield effects. If overall vokers still hold the mantle to ultimate Damage wtf cares?. You talking about pride?.
Verarb
Sojourner
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Verarb » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:59 pm

holy cow sesexxyy i was writing that previous post just as you posted
Ihazim
Sojourner
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ihazim » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:02 pm

okay i played invoker main for a rrrong time and this is how i saw it. When druid area was > than invoker area i didnt give a crap. I still had 9th, 8th and 7th circles. when druid damage was dg'ed i thought " more work for me ". Personally i felt invokers did way too much damage in the spheres of area and single target. It was nice being needed but more than 1 made zones way too easy. i even felt at times that i should play "lazy" to make things more exciting.

If i were to make a suggestion to fix the subject, i found that reducing half of my spell list to half area and half single target made things more balanced. On top of that, i found that it made fights slightly longer and melee more relevant.



my input. bam? :p
Last edited by Ihazim on Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Depok
Sojourner
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Postby Depok » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:06 pm

Isn't the question really have the gotten to the invoker downgrades yet?

Maybe at the end of the day after all of the changes are in Doom will be back to it's status as one of the better damage dealers.

However, I think the main issue here is that with every class having an area spell the sum total is too great. It is hard to downgrade invoker damage that much without seriously downgrading the rest of the classes area damage. The reason is that if the damage that an invoker does is not incrementally larger than all other classes then you will take the other classes for their utility.

Here is an example just for fun...

Pre change
Invoker area does 1000 hps per mob

Druid area does 800 hps per mob

Post change
Invoker area does 750 hps per mob 25% decrease

Druid area does 600 hps per mob 25% decrease

There is a point at which you will decide that the other skills the Druid has outweigh the advantage in the invoker damage.
Birile
Sojourner
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Albany, NY

Postby Birile » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:18 pm

Verarb wrote:You talking about pride?.


*ponder* I'm beginning to think this is about pride. But not on invokers' parts. :)

Again, I'm NOT saying (nor have I ever said) that invokers were or are upset that doom did more damage than inferno. I'm saying it is my belief that if anyone should have ever been upset, it was invokers--NOT druids.

My question is this--you've heard straight from THE Imm on this subject--Doom does about the same damage as Inferno, whether it takes longer to cast, whether it's over the course of three rounds instead of a one-shot deal, whatever. Why are y'all so upset that your big nuke has more limitations than the invokers' big nuke? They're specialists at doing damage, for goodness' sake! All of the mage classes have high-circle spells with limitations. It's part of the give and take. Do you hear me complaining that my bard backstab doesn't do nearly the amount of damage that a rogue's does? Um, no, but then I look at rogues as half-assed bards anyway since they can't carry a tune. 8) (j/k)

I do understand that you're upset because your main damage spell got downgraded. I would be, too. But when someone in the know tells me that my spell did more damage than the main damage spell of THE damage mage class, I think I would step back and consider if maybe yeah, my spell should have been downgraded if upgraded the OTHER mage class's spell wasn't an option (which it sounds like it isn't in this case).

The way I see it, Invokers should be #1 in total damage and in damage done in part, thus their 10th circle spells = more damage than the 10th circle spells of other mage classes. And below them, I would let Liches, Druids, Psi's and Illu's fight amongst themselves, some having more damage in one circle, others having more in another, etc. and each having their own unique benefits. Hell, to be frank, I think all invoker spells should have their side-effects taken away. I mean, damage is damage and that should be good enough. But they can blind, slow, paralyze, etc. all as side-effects. That should be the domain of other mage classes. But that's not the point of this post, so if anyone wants to post about this particular ditty elsewhere, I'm game.
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:29 pm

Ihazim wrote:okay i played invoker main for a rrrong time and this is how i saw it. When druid area was > than invoker area i didnt give a crap. I still had 9th, 8th and 7th circles. when druid damage was dg'ed i thought " more work for me ". Personally i felt invokers did way too much damage in the spheres of area and single target. It was nice being needed but more than 1 made zones way too easy. i even felt at times that i should play "lazy" to make things more exciting.

If i were to make a suggestion to fix the subject, i found that reducing half of my spell list to half area and half single target made things more balanced. On top of that, i found that it made fights slightly longer and melee more relevant.



my input. bam? :p


I don't think i'm going to win any awards for the best invoker player because of similar voker playing styles.

Still hoping to get something for having lowest innate hps in game for a level 50 tho. :D
gimaki
Sojourner
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:46 pm

Postby gimaki » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:31 pm

I'm for waiting until we see how the other spells get nerfed before really arguing about doom.

But I have to disagree with your logic Birile. Invokers easily did/do more damage than druids in your typical fight, and they should. But saying the top damage spell in the game (under optimal conditions) has to be the invokers, is silly. They have the top targetted spells, they have the best area spells (in combination) by a lot, having rot or doom do more than inferno does nothing to tarnish the class.

Keep in mind that outside of nature, doom is the druids only real source of offense, and doesn't work on certain types of creatures. It also has a real slow cast time.

Gim.
Verarb
Sojourner
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Verarb » Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:11 pm

Im fine with the doom downgrade as it applies to groups of mobs.
i get areas need to be toned down (but dont think problem is druids). Thing is when you apply this downgrade you also upset the balance druids had individually. If you appled gimaki's idea for sunray to doom maybe that would work, where you can target one or two mobs with doom that did pre dgrade damage. Wouldnt that satisfy everyone?
Vahok
Sojourner
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:01 am
Location: guelph,ontario,canada

Postby Vahok » Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:40 pm

I'd love to see a high level single target spell for druids personally...seems they are semi lacking in this.
Meatshield
Sarell
Sojourner
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: brisbane, australia

Postby Sarell » Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:07 am

"I'm simply saying that the idea that a druid can and should be allowed to
do more damage with their top-end damage spell than an invoker does
with theirs is just plain silly. "

"you've heard straight from THE Imm on this subject--Doom does about
the same damage as Inferno, whether it takes longer to cast, whether it's
over the course of three rounds instead of a one-shot deal, whatever."
Birile

The thing is... shev is right that doom did a lot of damage, FAR from right that it is or was the most powerful. So, not posting the math for casting time argument again. Saying doom out damages ferno in that instance is like saying warriors out damage vokers cos they don't have to mem, really not taking into account any factors bar the damage dice. But seriously, have you been to jot? I might get a doom off on the empty gatehouse. Specially if I was stupid enough to sunray.

Inferno pwns doom hard in a zone. Always has. I think doom should be close to on par with it, as druids don't really contribute much to a zone group. Vokers are still the supreme damage machine as they have a whole armada of damage spells, and doom isn't used that often as you have to use your silences, quakes, RtM, or sunray perhaps if you don't have prism and your warriors suck, first off.

Also, gate + relo totally and completely outclasses moonwell / shift for transport. For a start, a druid can't even get someone off prime by themselves. Secondly, calling windy is probably faster than casting / failing well. Moonwell is pretty much used exclusively to annoy the fool that quested orb for it to get level 21 alts to auction houses after they see something on the channel they wan't to bid on. PS, how the beejebus did squids end up with wormhole + rift + shift? Let's only give gate to chanters / elementalists!

And claiming that druids can do all this other stuff in zones is a bit far fetched, if you sunray, which is rather pointless with all the blind procs and prism, then you don't have time to doom. Heal / silence / vit / changestaff are all in the same circle, so if you are depending on a druid for healing you might hit a spot of bother. Bring a druid over another a voker in a zone would just be stupid if you going for ultimate smiting.
Mitharx
Sojourner
Posts: 475
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:01 am
Location: St. Louis, MO, 63129

Postby Mitharx » Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:16 am

I've heard some serious bitching about doom cast time lately. Talked to a few guildees and got info that doom is one or less stars greater in cast time than rot. Not that big a deal there. If you didn't get an area in the gatehouse then you must have brought a bunch of vokers than shamed both lichs and druids. Their cast time pwns us and is should pwn us cause its their thing.
Eilistraee
Staff Member - Quests
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:20 pm

Postby Eilistraee » Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:35 pm

I believe you can trust those of us with access to, and who work with the damage algorithm's to know which spell does indeed do the most damage.
Verarb
Sojourner
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Verarb » Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:05 pm

Druids = Khanjari class
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3917
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:38 pm

Invokers get more then just inferno... in fact I seem to recall that they get more then a couple targetted spells as well.

As far as damage goes... druids get doom as well as such powerful areas as QUAKE and SUNRAY. Invokers run in fear! your niche is at an end!
Demuladon
Sojourner
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:48 pm

Postby Demuladon » Tue Apr 06, 2004 5:55 pm

Never played good so I'm druid illiterate - does doom feedback with any other spells?
Sesexe
Sojourner
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:13 am

Postby Sesexe » Tue Apr 06, 2004 8:53 pm

Gormal wrote:Invokers get more then just inferno... in fact I seem to recall that they get more then a couple targetted spells as well.

As far as damage goes... druids get doom as well as such powerful areas as QUAKE and SUNRAY. Invokers run in fear! your niche is at an end!


Um.. I wasn't aware the invokers were the ones upset here. I thought it was the druids. Wasn't verarb kinda upset that we weren't upset?

Err..
Verarb
Sojourner
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Verarb » Tue Apr 06, 2004 8:59 pm

Hunh? and yah it has feedback
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3917
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:44 pm

Sesexe wrote:
Gormal wrote:Invokers get more then just inferno... in fact I seem to recall that they get more then a couple targetted spells as well.

As far as damage goes... druids get doom as well as such powerful areas as QUAKE and SUNRAY. Invokers run in fear! your niche is at an end!


Um.. I wasn't aware the invokers were the ones upset here. I thought it was the druids. Wasn't verarb kinda upset that we weren't upset?

Err..


For your benefit I'll interpret between the lines...

"Comparing the two classes based on damage output doesn't work."
Dizzin
Sojourner
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dizzin » Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:24 pm

Gormal wrote:Invokers get more then just inferno... in fact I seem to recall that they get more then a couple targetted spells as well.

As far as damage goes... druids get doom as well as such powerful areas as QUAKE and SUNRAY. Invokers run in fear! your niche is at an end!


Uhh, Druids get hailstorm and dessicate too Gormal. Hailstorm can be a room slow, and dessicate does cloud-like damage to trolls, so I assume it does about cloud damage. Now admittedly this has to be in nature, but saying all they have is quake and areablind (kinda, sorta, maybe) is just a bit strong.

Sarell wrote: I think doom should be close to on par with it, as druids don't really contribute much to a zone group. Vokers are still the supreme damage machine as they have a whole armada of damage spells, and doom isn't used that often as you have to use your silences, quakes, RtM, or sunray perhaps if you don't have prism and your warriors suck, first off.


Heh, anyone else find this funny? The druid has 5 different spells he should cast in a given fight, but they sure dont contribute much to a zone group! And regardless of that, Druids have a huge soloability over invokers with pets and healing. It's all about... you guessed it... balance!

Anywho, I'm thinking that after the areas of every other class gets nerfed, you'll see doom being just as strong, relatively, as it was before. Of course, patience is rarely a strong suit of ours nowadays, hehe.
gimaki
Sojourner
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:46 pm

Postby gimaki » Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:59 pm

Dizzin wrote:
Gormal wrote:Invokers get more then just inferno... in fact I seem to recall that they get more then a couple targetted spells as well.

As far as damage goes... druids get doom as well as such powerful areas as QUAKE and SUNRAY. Invokers run in fear! your niche is at an end!


Uhh, Druids get hailstorm and dessicate too Gormal. Hailstorm can be a room slow, and dessicate does cloud-like damage to trolls, so I assume it does about cloud damage. Now admittedly this has to be in nature, but saying all they have is quake and areablind (kinda, sorta, maybe) is just a bit strong.


Actually its not. Hailstorm has a lot of requirements (nature+weather). It's slow is pretty rare as well. (fyi hailstorm often wont kill antfarm ants with a single cast, its extremely rare when its worth even casting). But _generally_ speaking as a druid if your done with doom, your usefulness to the group in that fight is over. Druids are very fun/useful as a solo char thou;)
Sarell
Sojourner
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: brisbane, australia

Postby Sarell » Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:03 pm

Dizzin wrote:
Sarell wrote: I think doom should be close to on par with it, as druids don't really contribute much to a zone group. Vokers are still the supreme damage machine as they have a whole armada of damage spells, and doom isn't used that often as you have to use your silences, quakes, RtM, or sunray perhaps if you don't have prism and your warriors suck, first off.


Heh, anyone else find this funny? The druid has 5 different spells he should cast in a given fight, but they sure dont contribute much to a zone group! And regardless of that, Druids have a huge soloability over invokers with pets and healing. It's all about... you guessed it... balance!



Um... K, less subtlety needed. _Most_ druid spells are totally pwned by spells many other classes have. Silence, doesn't agro a mob, suffocate does, prism doesn't agro everything and has neato effects and works in daylight, lots of people get quake. If I smite a zone as my druid, it doesn't matter that much if I bother to cast anything or not. If a voker tried this out you would die mightily. I'm saying, that as is, there is little reason to bring a druid over any core class to a zone. They make up for this with a little soloability and ninjaness when used right. Having one decent damage spell wouldn't hurt this.

If doom was doing the same damage as ferno across a zone as some are claiming then swam or cloud or something must be stupidly out of whack, I assure you that you notice when the voker stops casting but it makes no difference if the druid doesn't damage. Show us the stats, let's sort this out? Better yet, return the GC command to players while balancing damage so we can give more accurate feedback?

Sarell wrote:Let's only give gate to chanters / elementalists!

hey that's not a bad idea! :P
Keran
Sojourner
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Folsom, CA, USA

Postby Keran » Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:51 pm

Feh,

When are warriors getting retooled. Oh wait, I have no fail headbutt. I'll sit down now.

:twisted:
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Fri Apr 16, 2004 4:40 am

Poor shev. It must get tiring how each time he fixes one problem, it creates a new one... :(
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
Verarb
Sojourner
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Verarb » Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:12 pm

OMG! i Just found out Inferno was a druid spell!
Imp Shapechange dragon!
Waelos
Sojourner
Posts: 499
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby Waelos » Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:02 am

Heya V, how about you and me park our downgraded tia item owning asses at 1w and contemplate the true nature of uselessness? We can have tea, and crumpets and you could tickle me with your carpet of bugs. Sound fun?


Lost ;)
Verarb
Sojourner
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Eheheh

Postby Verarb » Thu May 20, 2004 6:40 pm

< 446h/446H 124v/124V >
A human merchant says 'I've just witnessed a crime! I'd better go report it.'
A town fool slumps to the ground.
The arachnoids and insects you sent, kill a town fool with their bites and stings!
a town fool is dead! R.I.P.
A town fool is stunned!
A town fool slumps to the ground.
A human merchant says 'I've just witnessed a crime! I'd better go report it.'
You receive your share of experience.
Your blood freezes as you hear the rattling death cry of a town fool.
You summon up a vast carpet of crawling arachnoids and insects that flow forward to attack your foes.

< 446h/446H 124v/124V >
A human merchant shouts 'Help! Verarb is trying to kill me at A Huge Garden Path!'

< 446h/446H 124v/124V >
A human merchant misses you with his hit.
The Great Fountain of Waterdeep
Room size: Very large (L:75 ft W:75 ft H:500 ft)
Exits: -N -E -S -W
[2] A bottle of firebreather has been left here.
Corpse of Katoh is lying here.
A large bulletin board is mounted here.
The fountain's waters are very inviting.
Telser (Human) stands in mid-air here.
Corth (Human) stands in mid-air here.
You flee eastward!

< 446h/446H 123v/124V >
The day has begun.

< 446h/446H 123v/124V > kill human
I don't see that person here.

< 446h/446H 124v/124V > w
kPardon?
i
< 446h/446H 124v/124V > ll
I don't see that person here.
w
< 446h/446H 124v/124V >
A Huge Garden Path
Room size: Large (L:62 ft W:25 ft H:500 ft)
Exits: -E -S -W
A small pile of coins.
A leather backpack lies here.
Corpse of a town fool is lying here.
Corpse of Gimkas is lying here.
Corpse of Glahir is lying here. (glowing)
Corpse of Hammen is lying here.
A board with 'For Sale' messages on it hangs here.
A human merchant from another town stands here, perusing Waterdeep.
Tilsen (RP) (Gnome) stands in mid-air here.

< 446h/446H 123v/124V > kill
A human merchant recognizes you, and charges to attack you!
A human merchant barely hits you.
The Great Fountain of Waterdeep
Room size: Very large (L:75 ft W:75 ft H:500 ft)
Exits: -N -E -S -W
[2] A bottle of firebreather has been left here.
Corpse of Katoh is lying here.
A large bulletin board is mounted here.
The fountain's waters are very inviting.
Telser (Human) stands in mid-air here.
Corth (Human) stands in mid-air here.
You flee eastward!

< 444h/446H 122v/124V > human
I don't see that person here.

< 444h/446H 122v/124V > w
A Huge Garden Path
Room size: Large (L:62 ft W:25 ft H:500 ft)
Exits: -E -S -W
A pool of blood covers the ground.
A small pile of coins.
A leather backpack lies here.
Corpse of a town fool is lying here.
Corpse of Gimkas is lying here.
kCorpse of Glahir is lying here. (glowing)
Corpse of Hammen is lying here.
A board with 'For Sale' messages on it hangs here.
A human merchant from another town stands here, perusing Waterdeep.
Tilsen (RP) (Gnome) stands in mid-air here.

< 444h/446H 122v/124V > ill human
A human merchant staggers from your fearsome pound!

< 444h/446H 122v/124V T: Verarb TC: few scratches E: merchant EC: nasty wounds >


Good Stuff

Return to “T2 Gameplay Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests