The Way of the Ranger

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
teflor the ranger
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The Way of the Ranger

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:06 am

Howdy, it's Teflor the Decade Ranger. For the past ten years, I have been playing primarily the Ranger class, for those of you who don't quite remember where you've seen me before.

So let me tell you about Rangers.

As most of us know, this mud has seen it's ups and downs, which means that I've had quite a few chances to 'start fresh' and try different approaches to raise my character.

Most of the approaches are similar in the beginning. First, the introduction to the new ranger:

Levels 1-3 can be gotten by fighting stuff east of the turning point with the issued equipment.

Levels 3-6 can be gotten by fighting kobolds and goblins in the Goblin Caves. Further equipment can be gotten by buying pieces from the shops in WD, and standing around looking cute to get the toss-aways from random high-level strangerfolk.

Levels 6-9 can be gotten in the village of Split Shield, killing wargs and the like. Hard to panhandle equipment off of folks when there's no one in SS anymore. You basically work with what you have and steal all the leather equipment that gets dropped on the ground whenever someone comes through to do align.

Levels 10-20 can be gotten around the mud. You can stay in SS, try your hand at BGR, and start getting into noob groups running around hitting all the lower-middle level areas east of WD. So far, so good. You're acquiring more equipment handouts, and finding random stuff on the ground, like the seven dragons tabbard or what not. You might have even discovered where armor potions are sold after asking someone who used one. You're figuring how to best use your offensive spells to hit in between rounds, and that your healing spells are totally worthless. You don't use any of your other spells because they're by and far useless, however invis and detect invis seem to be really helping out your noob groups run through the gnolls and etc.

Ok. here's where stuff gets tricky. Up to this point, you could have leveled yourself, soloed all the mobs you needed to kill for money and xp. You're dual wielding, which you think is the coolest thing in the world. But now it's time to be social and actually run with an up and coming crowd.

Levels 20-30 used to be garned in HP. Ranger outdoor sneak used to get us past the theives that were waiting to kill lower level players and we could do a decent job leveling ourselves once in. However, those days are over. 20-30 are now garnered further down BGR and in and around Moestary taking on mobs that were just plain too large for a ranger to solo. Forming groups isn't too difficult on thrusday nights and these levels would go by quickly. The handouts have stopped coming, save the rare 'nice' item dumped on you by some high level that was extremely board.

You are now level 30 and stuck in the ranger midlife crisis. Your equipment hasn't changed in the last ten levels or so, but you gained a cool spell called barkskin, which you think is the neatest thing in the world. You still can't solo anything, but you can at least sub for a tank in your little midbie group. If only you could do some damage other than with those 1d8 swords you're wielding and your 9/8 hit dam.

This is where the way of the ranger splits roads. After a while, no one seems to really want you in their group, and certainly, no one seems to need you. Occasionally, you get called on to get welled around the world in search (in track) of a spell quest mob, or to assist in a CR when every one else capable on the mud got spanked in an agro zone. But that's really about it.

There are, however, ways to survive.

1) You come to realize that equipment is the key to ranger usefulness. If you are massively uber equipmentwise, you can still be useful! Roll another character, and get him to high level, use him to get good equipment, then dump it onto your Ranger!

2) Beg and plead. Force yourself into zoning groups and try as hard as you can not to be a burden, don't die, and hide among the casters.

3) Abuse your friends. Get them to put you in zoning groups. Still try not to be a hassle, and be prepared to become the butt of all jokes or general horsepoo.

4) Lie, cheat, steal. The more like a rogue you are in personality, the more likely they are to forget that you're a ranger. Although you can't actually steal things from mobs, you can still lie, and if you know something about the mud, you can still cheat.

5) Garner mad amounts of platinum and buy everything you can at the auction house. Try cornering the market on difficult quest items to improve your networth.

Now, let's get serious at least. A full analysis on the ranger tells us why the ranger becomes so useless in later life.

SPELLS

Let's compare the Useless Ranger to an almost as Useless Paladin

In the 8th, 9th, and 10th circles, Paladins recieve cool spells such as:
destroy undead - plain cool

heal - useful for keeping others live, replenishing hitpoints when needed

holy word - just fun to use

Rangers get these:
Cure Critic - for those 40 hitpoints you so desperatly need that takes three and a half rounds to cast

Minor Paralysis - just in case you want to mess with a mob you have no intention of killing

Transport Via Plants - because rangers are so threatened in the wild, and because there are so many zones in the jungle. also a convenient way of exiting DS, which rangers shouldn't be in anyway.

Pass Without Trace - actually useful, but only to the ranger himself

Control Weather - uh, yeah.

As far as spells are concerned, we have no spells useful to the group and contribute nothing magically, except perhaps for the two invises that we pray up for.

DOING DAMAGE

Archery is useless. Too many mobs have all sorts of anti-archery thingies and we might as well just put the bow down. We also cause a lot of spam picking up our arrows and arranging quivers and what not. Where melee damage is concerned, we're pretty useless as rogues, offensive casters, warriors, etc etc easily outdamage us.

KEEPING PEOPLE ALIVE

Rangers get cure critic. We're not healing nobody. Praying a full load of all the cures I can, i can heal at a rate of about 1.2HPs / second

HELPING OTHERS

We can bark you, not like you all don't already have -100 AC.




Ok, now a Class by Class Comparison

Rangers v. Warriors

Warriors bash, tank, and rescue. They do so much better than rangers.

Rangers v. Clerics

Clerics are necessary. Battle does damage, and damage must be healed.

Rangers v. Invokers

No comparison in damage.

Rangers v. Paladins

Paladin spells are more useful, and mounted combat upsets whatever extra hits rangers get out of dual wielding.

Rangers v. Enchanters/Elementists/Shamans

Enchanters > Rangers. Not even going to bother to half-arsed say why.

Rangers v. Druids

A druid is a powerful mix of a caster. Never say no to a druid in the group. Although druids are always outclassed in a particular category, there is always a need for this multi-role caster. Although closest in relation to rangers, Druids as a multi-role class > Rangers as a multi-role class.


So... now that we've determined that rangers are virutally useless because they are owned in every particular field. What to do about rangers?

I've always enjoyed the challenge of playing a Ranger. Don't make it easier, just give us a CHANCE to be USEFUL. Since we have no spells of any use (pass without trace and invis bein exceptions), and no skills that apply in most zones, we must be allowed to do damage. But I don't believe that we must be a damage class.

I propose extremely rare, difficult to obtain rangerable weapons. Even bows and arrows (for example, an arrow that can defeat lesser missile shielding), but preferably one handed swords.

As a ranger, I would like to know that my character could possibly become useful if enough effort was put into leveling and equipping the character. A good weapon that allows rangers to do damage in combat would be all that is needed.[/b]
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
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Postby Sylvos » Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:05 pm

I'm sorry Teflor, but if even a quarter of your post is serious, then you haven't been playing a ranger. You may have had a ranger character, but that doesn't mean squat if you don't actually explore what it can do.

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Postby Zen » Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:10 pm

Please, the class is what you make of it.

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Postby Caecara Kaletasere » Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:32 pm

wow, I've come to dread ever posting due to:
1. lack of response
2. being told I don't know what I'm talking about
3. being downright laughed at for whatever reason

Honestly, I don't know teflor very well myself, but I see nothing wrong with his post about rangers. In fact, he seems to specifically mention rangers from a more 'newbie' sort of way. Omgoodness, heaven forbid. I could respond with something about 'oh EVERYONE knows that rangers are useless' or 'you must not know how to play a ranger then'

What about something constructive perhaps? Not everyone is this 'elite' player. Ranger class or not...you tend to know more than an 'average/below average player' if you've been playing the game for years, have multiple alts, maybe one or two lvl 50's...'oh, wait, doesn't everyone have at least 5 of those now?' <---the previous statement is something I've seen in the general attitude here. Assumptions, judgements...but then I suppose that's life. can't get away from it even in a game.

Here's the thing, Ranger's need something. Yes, the gods have a million other things to worry about probably. There's no way, on the face of this earth, that they could NOT know that this 'IS' a problem, and has been for a while. From their perspective, they probably are too busy dealing with all the other things players throw their way day after day after day. We really ought to have an Immortal Appreciation Day or something.

After displaying his person experiences with the class, he brought up a 'possible' answer, even if not perfect, is at least a suggestion. There is absolutly nothing wrong with that. From what I've seen myself, he makes a valid point that rangers 'seem to be', I may be wrong, but then again, this it what I've seen and heard from multiple people. They 'seem to be' based on how good their eq is. And it's not helpful to hear from two very good players who also have extremely good eq, about how it must be because he doesn't try hard enough, perhaps? so what about all those other people who I've heard from time and time again?

Honestly, I've heard his story a million times over. Not that even half of it would come to this board with people being overshadowed by all the players who have been around for years, or the simple fear that they'll be dismissed because they simply 'don't know the game' or 'are a nOOb, maybe they'll learn when they get bigger' Yes, players who have been around for years 'should' have respect, can give valued opinions, suggestions, etc...but you don't even seem to realize the people you push away.

In the end, yes...rangers need to be looked at. Make them useful. They have the possibility to be such a creative class, for the newbie, and for the experienced-to-elite players. Eq...is an issue. I think most of us agree. Even more-so now for the younger, less experienced players. Those higher up hardly bat an eyelash, it seems, but the smaller players have certainly had a large impact because of it.

and please...think about your replies. when you post things that someone watching the boards, who may not know the people involved or the situations, may find simply rude and unfriendly. Why would they want to come concider a game, when their experience may be only what they have seen here? With a declining pbase as it is...this is something the PLAYERS need to think of.


Right...done now :) *takes a deep breath*
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Postby Sylvos » Mon Apr 12, 2004 3:59 pm

Well here's the thing. Teflor is posting based off his '10 years of playing a ranger'. He attempts to establish some credibility due to his tiem playing.

As somebody who has also played a ranger for about the same length of time, I find a lot of flaws with his post. His analysis of our high level spells is mocking and deliberately negative. Comparing them to another pseudo-caster class is apples to oranges as the two classes have a different focus. You cannot compare a paladin's high level spells with a ranger's.

Teflor posted that what was needed are powerful weapons, even bows and arrows. Firstly, you will not get powerful items in this game as a newbie until you've played awhile, so his suggestion automatically excludes that band of players. Secondly, the proposed 'solution' already exists for those that look for it.

Bow and arrows? You have two proc bows in the game - one for sheer damage and another one can sunder missile shield. Any arrows of +3 or greater bonus has a chance to sunder missile shield and will pierce it to do damage.

Powerful one handed swords? Well windsong is a staple elfblood ranger weapon that isn't that difficult of a quest and can be completed easily by a dedicated player by level 40, even if you aren't a guilded char or an alt. For stronger weapons, you have several available, from simple quests to long epic quests. Those solutions exist, there's nothing new proposed.

I've written up a full ranger guide about playing the class. That was two years ago, a bit has changed that I need to update but rather than trying to compare the ranger's skills and abilities to other classes, I instead gave an example of where they're used. No, we're not a 'niche' class and there is a problem with it. One of the largest issues with the class isn't one of equipment, it's one of skills. We have an old skill set that has not been updated as the mud evolves. New skills have been patched on - archery, ranged specialist, spellcast nature, spellcast enchantment etc, but the entire skill base needs an overhaul. Additionally, the class suffers from the 'jack of all trades' build that was popular many years ago. That trend was weeded out, as the sorcer class was divided and even more mage classes were born.

It's no secret that there are a number of changes being worked on by the gods to influence melee's effectiveness. I'm holding out hope that one of the planned changes will be an overhaul of the class. But until the skill set is revised to give the class a better ability to perform a set role, rather than stopgap fixes for when things go poorly in a group, anything else is wasted.

If in doubt, remember that a good ranger is at his/her best when a group goes sour. We can serve as a standin for a number of roles, but it only comes out when something really goes wrong. That's no basis for a class, since nobody wants to bring somebody to fill a 'just in case' role. But right now, that's what a ranger's skills allow them to excel at.

Sylvos Winteraven
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Postby gimaki » Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:45 pm

I really don't see the point of any more ranger threads until we see how the melee changes come out. It's like building a house before you know what the foundation is going to look like. Rangers never will be (imho) a needed class, if you want to play someone that a group is always going to need, try cleric. The mud has become much more specialized in the last few years, while the ranger class hasn't evolved, but we still can be extremely valuable to a group (it would be nice if we were more so but well see). I've been in a lot of groups in my time that have prevented a full spank due to the ranger(s).

If you know your class, you aren't a pain in the ass (AFK all the time), you'll get into groups no matter what class you play, even a lowly ranger;).

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teflor the ranger
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In Response to Sylvos' Reply

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:06 pm

I agree that the bows and arrows are available, although the good arrows are difficult to gather in any quantity.

As for elvenable weapons, they don't much help the other races that play the ranger class.

For that matter, from the prospective of a non-elite player, the quests are difficult to even discover! I've come across a few small ones by accident in my wanderings around the mud.

I've bummed information about quests from other players, but it doesn't seem quite right.

Where skills are concerned, rangers make extremely poor stand-ins for most classes, particularly at the higher levels.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:42 pm

Have patience with the quests. If you enjoy them then keep doing them the old-fashioned way and it'll pay off in the end. Quests are what I enjoy here, and I do my best to do most of them without information from other people. There are enough of them to do that they've kept me amused with this game for three and more years now, and chasing down all the leads in them has taught me more about the mud than anything else I've done. That's why I don't give out much quest information, and probably why some other people aren't helping with too much information for you... it's not that we don't really want to share, it's just they're one more facet to maintain interest in the game, so why rush them?

Archery can be a very powerful tool for a ranger, which is a big reason why the really good arrows are difficult to gather in high quantities. Eventually you'll have plenty.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:11 pm

I pretty much agree with Sylvos that the class needs a major overhaul. Thus my post a few months back proposing an entirely new set of skills for us: http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org:8080/php ... hp?t=13255

Still haven't seen anything from Sylvos or Zen on that. ;) OR Teflor actually... heh.


I do think that Teflor's analysis is somewhat accurate. Or at least I got to level 30, then started having trouble getting groups. I can usually beg my way into one, but no one ever seems to be doing who lfg rang.

I don't entirely agree with the spell analysis. The ranger spell set isn't extremely useful, as compared to an enchanter or something, but it does a pretty good job. Nature's Blessing is cool, barkskin always useful, cure critic as a last ditch life-saving attempt. I can actually get CC off in between rounds on rare occasions, so as my quickchant rises it'll be more likely to be useful. minor p and our other para spell (with the insects) have uses for certain situations, such as escaping or lessening the strain of multiple opponents.

In any case, while having a few more cool ranger items would be nice I don't think that it would fix the class. First of all, the ranger you described is already having trouble getting eq... making special hard to get eq is going to alleviate that? Second, if it's going to be much better than what is already around you'd need to be level 50 to get it... and that won't help you get groups between 30 and 50.

Seriously though, a human ranger only sword or armor or something would rock!
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:23 pm

I'm not going to comment on the post, enough people have done that. I will just comment on the elven only weapon. Windsong isn't racist anymore. So, assuming you play a human ranger, you can still do the quest, and as it was pointed out, it's really not that hard. Ask another ranger for some tips or something if you want to figure it out yourself.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:33 pm

Can windsong be used by humans? I know the news said no longer racist, but it's possible that means it was changed so half-elves could use it.
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Postby Zen » Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:37 pm

Windsong was changed so that it proced the same for both half-elves and elves, prior to that it proced more attacks for elves.

Sarvis, some suggestions on rangers from sylvos can be found at:

http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org:8080/php ... p?p=118830
http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org:8080/php ... p?p=102172
http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org:8080/php ... hp?t=10187

Rangers need something, yes, but its still one of the few remaining classes where the player can make his own role in the group rather than the class specifying what and how you do a job.

-Llandrien
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:58 pm

Zen wrote:Windsong was changed so that it proced the same for both half-elves and elves, prior to that it proced more attacks for elves.

Sarvis, some suggestions on rangers from sylvos can be found at:

http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org:8080/php ... p?p=118830
http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org:8080/php ... p?p=102172
http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org:8080/php ... hp?t=10187

Rangers need something, yes, but its still one of the few remaining classes where the player can make his own role in the group rather than the class specifying what and how you do a job.

-Llandrien


I meant responses from you guys on my idea specifically. I'm quite sure most of us have posted ideas all over the place... heh.

So still no good ranger weapon for humans... figures.
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Postby Vahok » Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:50 pm

I just wanna personally thank all the rangers out there on a serious note. You guys and girls put up with tons of crap from others, and yes, myself included. But I do try and notice now when a ranger picks up a bash I miss, helps rescue, lures, doing damage...ahh heck, y'all know what you can do. Your hard work maybe goes unnoticed sometimes, but the Big V is watching and thanks you all!

P.S. Even you Amolol, even though you shamed my honour saying you could outtank me!
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Postby Treladian » Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:41 am

Sarvis wrote:So still no good ranger weapon for humans... figures.


Last I checked, Swiftwind was human usable. Of course, it's also not strictly a ranger weapon, but still one that tends to be identified with the class (and likely the reason I was briefly misnamed Swiftwind instead of Silentwind by one of the gods)

Anyway, there are definately much more worthwhile 1 handed swords to wield as a primary besides windy than there were before. But windy stills seems to be at the top of the heap outside of epic quests like Erlans and Oakvale. Garguath claimed to have had plans for a human ranger only weapon, but Garg claimed a lot of things and is no longer in the picture here. At least you do have some +max con and +dam eq you can play with for an extra HP boost while still retaining hit/dam now.
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:49 pm

Rangers are very eq dependent.

But, as alot of things, I think we have a good imm team, and this will be dealt with in the near future. if not with melee changes, then with ranger specific changes. Be patient Teflor. :D
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Postby Dalar » Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:10 am

Treladian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:So still no good ranger weapon for humans... figures.


Last I checked, Swiftwind was human usable. Of course, it's also not strictly a ranger weapon, but still one that tends to be identified with the class (and likely the reason I was briefly misnamed Swiftwind instead of Silentwind by one of the gods)

Anyway, there are definately much more worthwhile 1 handed swords to wield as a primary besides windy than there were before. But windy stills seems to be at the top of the heap outside of epic quests like Erlans and Oakvale. Garguath claimed to have had plans for a human ranger only weapon, but Garg claimed a lot of things and is no longer in the picture here. At least you do have some +max con and +dam eq you can play with for an extra HP boost while still retaining hit/dam now.


i'd like to see a human ranger wield a swiftwind for 8 minutes.
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Noobs, Normals, and Never Offline

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:41 pm

By posting specifically about rangers, I’m afraid that I may have also neglected one of the major issues about the mud’s playability. I believe that Toril caters to its most loyal players, which is exactly what the problem is.

I would like to start by saying that the people that connect to port 9999 are what make this mud fun (as well as that other port in the 5000-7000 range). There are three major classifications of players on our mud... Noobs, Normals, and Never Offline (also known as the ‘elite’).

Noobs are first time players, rolling first time characters, looking around the mud, gathering copper coins and other such things. The mud is fairly friendly to noobs, as all of us are friendly and generally helpful. Of course, often times noob rangers are told to re-roll their characters, but that’s beyond the scope of this post.

Normals are the players that get on twice a week for three hours or so to play the mud as a game, to relax a little, chat with some familiar players.

And the ‘elite’ of Toril are those people who are always on, probably four or more times a week for four hours or more and have been doing so since 199x.

Toril caters to its most loyal players, the aforementioned ‘elite’. The unfortunate circumstance is that not everyone can become one of these players, particularly if they don’t have 20 hours a week to watch the scroll back buffer grow to epic proportions. The appeal of the mud is adventure, and most of it is left to the higher leveled and the better equipped. No one’s going to do Musp. Invasion with a level 36 warrior wielding a ruby bladed longsword he picked up off the ground and have very much fun. Even all of the epic quests require quite a bit of muscle and knowledge of the entire mud in order to complete.

We all remember how exciting the mud can be. A lot of us remember being scared shitless our first time wandering through the Palace of Lloth in quest for the dscale gaunts, or the first time we’ve heard of a zone and went in search of it for ourselves. But don’t bother to even attempt the dscale gaunts without at least three reasonably well equipped, higher level players, and don’t go wandering in search of a zone without at least 600 hit points and some sort of escape mechanism like word of recall.

Unless you don’t mind dying. Which ‘elites’ might not mind but for the rest of us who are only on maybe 8 hours in a week ... can pretty much ruin a half-week of play if there doesn’t happen to be a cleric on that isn’t up to his/her neck in requests.

Let’s face it. When we total the numbers of zones and quests for our elite players, the number is surpassingly greater and farther in range than quests and zones geared towards our normal players. The mud is just no fun to play unless you’re going to be on 15, 20 hours a week.

Toril turns away quite a large portion of its potential audience because of this. I believe that people is what makes the mud enjoyable and that our normal players could add so much more to the game. The reason we see such a decline in role-playing, and guild rivalry, is because we’re staring at the same fifty faces or so day after day.

Even when we get new blood, we have a very hard time holding on to it.

Another thing is because of the class system. Successful normal players are those who choose classes that are more or less self-sufficient. Someone who’s only on twice a week and picks a specific-role class such as an Invoker, Enchanter, Warrior, etc., etc., do indeed fail - particularly because of a complete reliance upon a group. We’ve seen it happen quite a lot; they reach level 25-38 or so, then just seem to fade away with time, disappearing into the void.

We’re lucky if we chose some sort of self-substantiating class such as the elementist, the paladin, the druid, or the ranger. At least we were able to level ourselves most of the way, explore on our own without getting beaten down too much, and most importantly, not completely rely upon a group. But the problem with this is that for the ranger it only lasts until level 28 or so, pallies only until about 32, and druids until about 38.

The class system needs a little revamping. The classes that do not depend on a group to survive do not seem to have very much use in a group.

Ok, now for all those who are thinking of responding to the post with such things as:

all you need is a swiftwind that you can quest with enough time, dedication, and a small private army

or

you just need to put more time and effort into the game

or

your baby whining suggestions will do nothing to improve my leet uber equipment set

or

you just don't know the mud, you don't know anything, you suck, hahaha

can just stop. I already mentioned it for you. This herein - is the problem. Most people who would really enjoy this mud DO NOT have the time to jump on at 3 in the morning when someone calls them and tells them that the mud has crashed to run into greycloak hills to look for rareload mobiles. Most of us have jobs, school, or just plain responsibilities that keep us from spending more than eight to twelve hours on the mud per week. And don’t be insecure; if they add some midbie zones and quests for decent mid-level equipment, it will in no way diminish all the time and effort that you have put into the mud – but actually make you even more elite.

Let more people enjoy the mud. Open adventure to us all. Let more people wander through the halls of an unknown Immortal’s palace surrounded by strange creatures in search of a mystic item. Let us all feel the power of new equipment and the RISKS and the effort put forth into obtaining it. Let us form stronger bonds with players that aren’t on so much, and bring them on more often, to group with us, to chat with us, and to smite with us.

IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
gimaki
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Postby gimaki » Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:20 pm

I'll be honest, I can't figure out what your asking for...
How can you form those stronger bonds if your not on much?
How can you expect to get the same rewards as someone that spends 10x the amount of effort on something?

The mud, like the ranger class, is what you make of it. There are tons of fun things to do when you aren't 'maxxed' or 'elite'. But to enjoy the mud you will need a group of like-level folks, which can be tough to find at lower levels.

Btw its extremely easy to level a druid to 50 solo.
teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:43 pm

Gim, I understand how, but you missed the point entirely.

I'm merely pointing out that the mud isn't enjoyable enough to attract many new players, and would be much more enjoyable for all if it could.

When Toril was Toril for the first time, there were many players of all character levels and capabilities. These days, you hit who, and there's 87 mortals on, but when you hit who 40, there are 77. (just tried that last night)

I'm not asking for 'rewards', I'm asking that the mud be made enjoyable for those who just play six to eight hours a week. I'm asking that mud development not be concentrated soley on it's most loyal and longstanding members, but fully developed at all levels so that all levels of players can enjoy the mud a tremendous amount.

If you've ever played Gradius or R-Type, you know what I'm talking about. Sure the game is great if you've played for hours and recieved every upgrade known to man, but it's also fun when start getting halfway through the first level.

And to address your comments about stronger bonds, they will come if people keep playing the mud. So many midlevel characters drop the mud because it's not worth the time and effort they put into it and get so litle out of (because they can't spend 20 hours on it a week).

BTW, do you have any hints for soloing a ranger to 50 :)
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
Gurns
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Re: Noobs, Normals, and Never Offline

Postby Gurns » Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:33 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:Let’s face it. When we total the numbers of zones and quests for our elite players, the number is surpassingly greater and farther in range than quests and zones geared towards our normal players.


Certainly it has seemed to me that a lot of the new zones that have come in have been at the high end. But then I wondered about the mud as a whole. I looked through credits, and came up with the following counts:

Low end zones: 18
Low to mid: 25
Middle: 36
Mid to high: 38
High end zones: 16

Hardly precise, since many zones have a wide range, and I'm not sure I kept the same definitions throughout. Note that I didn't count the zones listed as "All" or "1-50" or any of the hometowns, so this is an undercount for all levels. I also didn't count the XP Grids, the Sea, the Newbie Zone, one or two other places.

But assuming I've got it even approximately right, there are LOTS of zones for the low to middle range player (1 to 35 or 40).

In terms of quests, there are lots of little quests all around. BGR alone must have dozens. Are there more for the high end? Possibly, but there must be hundreds of quests for low to middle range folks.

So there's plenty of stuff to do, at all levels.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:59 pm

Is there? You listed 18 low end zones, but do you consider The Calimsham Beach or the Northern Wilderness Roads "things to do" on Toril? When it comes down to it, there are exactly three options for content before you're zonable:

1. Kill mobs for exp.
2. Do quests.
3. Explore the mud.

Number 1 is pretty self-explanatory, and it's what 90% of the mud does 90% of the time. Technically, there are plenty of places to go for experience. But you know that people tend to congregate in a small number of exp zones for most of their lives. Why? Because they're clearly the best. Who's going to level up in Zhentil Keep when you can do monestary and get better experience without the walk? Nobody. Nobody does it. Offering people crappy exp zones is not "something to do."

There are a ton of lowbie quests around Toril if you look for them. BGR has numerous, there are plenty around Leuthilspar, Griffon's Nest is loaded. But have you ever DONE the BGR quests, Gurns? I did several of them when I played. One was a three-item quest that sent me to IC and back, and included a rareload on Dusk Road. The reward was AC6 +1hit +4agi rogue-only sleeves, which I promptly dropped at the fountain. When newbies are given free standard issue jot equipment just for showing up in Waterdeep naked, nobody's going to waste a week camping rares for utter shit like this. I remember getting a small 25ish group out there to do the flame salamander, a fireshielded warrior mob I couldn't take by myself. His bracelet was AC5 nostat. Most of BGR is like that... quests involving rareloads or mobs that are hard for their level, neither of which give any real reward. "Oh doing the quest is its own reward!" people say. Yeah... sure. You aren't going to attact new players to a text-based game by telling them that doing the quest is its own reward.

Some people like to explore, some don't. Most don't like to die, especially if nobody's going to help them. Toril is littered with very good reasons NOT to explore... the displacer beast, trollbark, evermoors, spiderhaunt... all very easy ways for a new player to die and possibly lose a corpse if nobody will help him. It's all well and good for a veteran like you or I to say "go explore, it's fun." It's entirely different for a level 13 ranger to risk his only sword for the sake of seeing more zones full of mobs he can't kill by himself. And even exploration isn't infinite... after a while the novelty of reading room descriptions wanes.

So really, ask yourself again. What IS there to do as a new player, besides killing mobs, doing unrewarding quests, or walking to Scornubel and back?
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:55 pm

My problems with exploration are that it takes so damn long to get anywhere, the entire time you are just kind of isolated and growing bored (like soloing but less fun) and half the time yo unever find anything anyway! I mean, wanted east on BGR for a long time and you basicaly hit one big loop that takes an hour or more to complete, you go past ZK and I think Myth Drannor and that's about it. Or at least that's about all I ever found. There's a couple quest mobs out there, but overall there just isn't a lot out there and it isn't worth the walk. (Disclaimer: It could just be that I suck at exploring and missed things...)

Maybe it would help if some new zones were put out there? Some things made that were better doable by a guy soloing, not just quests but zonelets to explore and such.

I dunno, I think I had more to say but I'm dead tired right now... so...
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Postby gimaki » Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:02 pm

Darkhold, Citadel, Trollbark, etc are all designed for the mid-level player. The mud now is more newbie friendly then it ever has been in the past (by a large multiplier). Unfortunately there is a stagnate player base, easy exp, equipment bloat, so your not going to find many newbie groups that bond, explore, exp together. Without a group of fairly regular friends this mud really doesn't offer much attraction to a new player.

If we get a solid home site, if we can attract a bunch of new players (couple hundred) the mid-level 'problem' would lesson quite a bit, until then, not sure how it could be 'fixxed'. I'm just not sure a text based mud can be all that attractive nowdays to anyone but us old folks, but hopefully I'm wrong on this.

Belle
Viclor Voddyn
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:19 pm

Well the mud is always going to have more fun towards the high level players because thats where the best part of the mud is.

Exp is dull, boring, and time consuming.

Zoning is fun, challenging, and enriches player relations.

And Gimaki, Muding is dumb, and really unappealing to MOST newbies.

We have to attract other mudders, and make this mud look like something balanced and well-ordered.
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Postby Gurns » Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:24 pm

Ragorn wrote:So really, ask yourself again. What IS there to do as a new player, besides killing mobs, doing unrewarding quests, or walking to Scornubel and back?


Viclor wrote:the mud is always going to have more fun towards the high level players because thats where the best part of the mud is.


*shrug* I'm sorry you guys think 90% of the mud experience is no fun. With that ratio of fun to boredom, why do you even mud here? Most of my mudding has been doing zones that are now considered mid or mid-high level zones, exploring, finding out the tricks and traps, RP, socializing, etc. I certainly enjoy doing the high-end zones, but if that was the only thing I liked about the mud, I'd be long gone. No mud can provide enough of that to keep anyone's interest for long, if that's all they're looking for. No game can.

I don't like questing much, but that's me, personally. Probably a good thing - if I liked questing, I'd never log off! :)

As for my count of zones, and whether they're "worth" counting, *shrug*. Frankly, I think at least one of the high end zones is boring and not worth counting, if we make that a criterion. But even the "boring" low zones can be an avenue for fun and accomplishment. The Calimshan Beach itself might not be a "thing to do". But if you're a newbie, and can run your level 10 character from Waterdeep to the Beach without a guide and without dying, then yeah, I'd say that's quite an accomplishment. I'd be a LOT more impressed with that as an accomplishment than with the accomplishment of someone who reached lvl 10 in a couple hours of ptime.

And I'd expect the newbie who explored and found the Beach by lvl 10 would be a lot more likely to stick around on the mud for a long time, compared to the newbie who only wanted to power up.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:57 pm

Gurns wrote:*shrug* I'm sorry you guys think 90% of the mud experience is no fun. With that ratio of fun to boredom, why do you even mud here?


Actually, I don't. And that's the reason why. Simply put, other games offer the experience of killing mobs, but also add content in the form of pvp, tradeskills, crafting, and trade. Things to do. Toril lacks these alternative forms of entertainment... we had a trade system very briefly, but I don't need to remind you what the end result of that system was.

And I'd expect the newbie who explored and found the Beach by lvl 10 would be a lot more likely to stick around on the mud for a long time, compared to the newbie who only wanted to power up.


I agree. Now, Toril just needs to figure out a way to 1) entice that player into playing, and 2) convince him to stay once he hits the wall and exp gets slow and repetitive.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Viclor Voddyn
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:23 am

Gurns wrote:
Ragorn wrote:So really, ask yourself again. What IS there to do as a new player, besides killing mobs, doing unrewarding quests, or walking to Scornubel and back?


Viclor wrote:the mud is always going to have more fun towards the high level players because thats where the best part of the mud is.


*shrug* I'm sorry you guys think 90% of the mud experience is no fun. With that ratio of fun to boredom, why do you even mud here? Most of my mudding has been doing zones that are now considered mid or mid-high level zones, exploring, finding out the tricks and traps, RP, socializing, etc. I certainly enjoy doing the high-end zones, but if that was the only thing I liked about the mud, I'd be long gone. No mud can provide enough of that to keep anyone's interest for long, if that's all they're looking for. No game can.

I don't like questing much, but that's me, personally. Probably a good thing - if I liked questing, I'd never log off! :)

As for my count of zones, and whether they're "worth" counting, *shrug*. Frankly, I think at least one of the high end zones is boring and not worth counting, if we make that a criterion. But even the "boring" low zones can be an avenue for fun and accomplishment. The Calimshan Beach itself might not be a "thing to do". But if you're a newbie, and can run your level 10 character from Waterdeep to the Beach without a guide and without dying, then yeah, I'd say that's quite an accomplishment. I'd be a LOT more impressed with that as an accomplishment than with the accomplishment of someone who reached lvl 10 in a couple hours of ptime.

And I'd expect the newbie who explored and found the Beach by lvl 10 would be a lot more likely to stick around on the mud for a long time, compared to the newbie who only wanted to power up.


SOME exp IS fun. Most of it is too repetitive to be fun though, IMO.

RP? I have never run into anyone that is not lvl 50 who RPs. Again, another reason why the high-end game is more fun. You actually may have some people who RP, or atleast know how to do it well.

Why I play..hmm.

1.Player interaction.

2.I like muds, especially one with this sort of theme.

3. The end-game, that is the most fun you will ever have in a game, imo.

4. Role-play, whenever I can.

I could probably think of more....but thats all I can get off the top of my head at the moment.


Let me try to Redirect this thread here though....enough complaining about this and that, and Ragorns issue about not playing. Really dude, if you don't play, why even come to the forums? Do you not realise you are in one relating to GAMEPLAY DISCUSSION?

I see so many suggestions and gripes, what we need is a player council or something.
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Postby Tida » Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:55 am

Just to say something on the RP part. I started way back when I was around 35 to 40th lvl. I didn't really get involved till just recently that was when i was 47th. I know for a fact that there is someone who is now 30ish lvl RP and has been RP since they started that char and tries to get involved when he can. So no you don't have to be 50th lvl to RP
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Postby Duna » Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:02 am

As far as the RP thing goes, I RP :) and i'm not lvl 50. I don't even have a lvl 50. actually i've never had a lvl 50. so now explain again what the big deal is about lvl 50? I mean comeon... I've never really zoned, I've never had a char. reach lvl 50, let alone one over lvl 40... and i've been playin here almost 6 years now. I play for the quests, the company, and the fun of it ;)
Viclor Voddyn
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:04 am

Tida wrote:Just to say something on the RP part. I started way back when I was around 35 to 40th lvl. I didn't really get involved till just recently that was when i was 47th. I know for a fact that there is someone who is now 30ish lvl RP and has been RP since they started that char and tries to get involved when he can. So no you don't have to be 50th lvl to RP


Well not 50, but I also consider 40+ part of the end game.

Honestly, when you are sub 46 or sub 40, noone asks you to RP, or engages in it. They are worried about leveling and advancing their character skill and equipment. As they should be.

I'm guilty of this also, unless I have (RP) by my name.
Oghma responds to your petition with 'then you'll have to give me your credit card numbers, ban
k accounts, and shoe size.'

Oghma responds to your petition with 'but we'll wait until you hit 40 first'
Caecara Kaletasere
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Postby Caecara Kaletasere » Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:44 am

"Let me try to Redirect this thread here though....enough complaining about this and that, and Ragorns issue about not playing. Really dude, if you don't play, why even come to the forums? Do you not realise you are in one relating to GAMEPLAY DISCUSSION? " - Viclor

It is a gameplay discussion, and what better perspective than from a once long-time player who quit for gameplay reasons. People are leaving. People have left. logically...that would mean there are reasons for it and at least he is coming back to try and give his perspective on why. At least he still cares enough TO put in his feelings on the matter. Honestly, I'll probably look back and wonder if it was worth the effort for me to respond. Enough people I know simply quit, occationally check up on the boards, but never respond. Honestly, what would it matter if they did?

The Sojourn/Toril is a GREAT game. It caught my attention about 2 years ago or so...and it's become a part of me. The people, the game, the adventure. But there are a lot of faults that are being overlooked, pushing the game deeper and deeper into a hole. I could tell you stories, I could tell you examples, but this isn't the subject to do it under. There are problems with the game itself that are hindering, yes. But everyone is stuck with it for now. Until things change or are fixed to the way they need to be, the players need to look at what can/is/isn't being done on their parts.

Teslor brings up valid points about the 'classes' of players on the mud. There are the definate low, middle, and high classes. To deny that would just be silly. It would also seem silly, to me at least, to deny that 3/4 of the players who still CONTINUE to play, consist of the more 'higher class' of the mud. Those who have the time and the knowledge to play. The big problem with that is, from my personal experience with people who game (mud or otherwise), is that a majority of people don't have the time they would like to have to invest in large portions. You can get incredibly loyal, long term players from them...but if the time they are able to invest are tainted with conflicting attutudes, forced difficulty of gameplay, intimidation from long-term, highend players...that is a problem.

Ugh, hehe, I think I need to stop responding when so it's late at night.

Council of players...interesting idea, ....reality...would it actually work? doubt it. Silly politics.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:36 pm

Hey, if you don't want to listen to my opinion because I don't play Toril, then don't. I've played pretty much every MMORPG that exists on the market today. I've played Duris and Medievia also. I graduate college next month and plan to start a career in MMORPG design. Sometimes I like to believe I have the experience and knowledge necessary to make certain points.

I stop by the forum every couple days because a part of me is still connected to this game... it's where I started online gaming, and Sojourn/Toril is still a part of who I am and the characters I play. Even though I disagree with the direction the mud is going, I want to see Toril exist when my kids are learning how to use the computer. There will probably come a time in the near future when I stop visiting the Toril BBS... most of my friends have left the mud by now, and it doesn't seem like my (or anybody's, really) contribution is affecting the game. But some of what I post is as much for my benefit as anything else... forming my thoughts into a long post about what's wrong with the low-level game will help me design and create a better system when I do start working on a MMORPG. I could probably fill an encyclopedia with ideas I've posted that didn't see light on Toril... but who knows, you may see some of them take form in another game in the near future ;)
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:01 am

Ragorn wrote:Hey, if you don't want to listen to my opinion because I don't play Toril, then don't. I've played pretty much every MMORPG that exists on the market today. I've played Duris and Medievia also. I graduate college next month and plan to start a career in MMORPG design. Sometimes I like to believe I have the experience and knowledge necessary to make certain points.

I stop by the forum every couple days because a part of me is still connected to this game... it's where I started online gaming, and Sojourn/Toril is still a part of who I am and the characters I play. Even though I disagree with the direction the mud is going, I want to see Toril exist when my kids are learning how to use the computer. There will probably come a time in the near future when I stop visiting the Toril BBS... most of my friends have left the mud by now, and it doesn't seem like my (or anybody's, really) contribution is affecting the game. But some of what I post is as much for my benefit as anything else... forming my thoughts into a long post about what's wrong with the low-level game will help me design and create a better system when I do start working on a MMORPG. I could probably fill an encyclopedia with ideas I've posted that didn't see light on Toril... but who knows, you may see some of them take form in another game in the near future ;)


I wish you the best of luck with your ideas on another mud or MMORPG. :)

My comment was not directed towards your ideas, as with anyone who played here for as long as you have still know what this mud is like.

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