Um. I've been away a while. . .

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Waelos
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Um. I've been away a while. . .

Postby Waelos » Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:47 am

And come back, ID my scepter and its downgraded?

I talk to other people and find out every single tiamat item has been downgraded?

I know this should probably go in the object changes thread but Im sure that forum is a dead horse noone wants to look at anymore so here's a new thread. I hope to get some Imm's attention on this and make some changes if possible.

First of all, the mud has changed. Alot. Since the few times that zone was accomplished. Many new things were added, spells, items, classes, code, etc. So, adjusting items to reflect how 'easy' that zone would be when done by a group of todays' heros is wrong. The zone is not, and will not, come back in the same format and the player characters in their current incarnations will never be able to interact with that zone so how can one justify downgrading items that were sufficient reward for a zone that was sufficiently hard at the time?

Does that mean that the items will be available in the new tiamat? If so, holy cow the tia items are barely worth getting. Khanjari dagger has been 100X better than valhalla since its upgrade. . UPGRAde. . yeah, upgrade a quest item but downgrade tiamat eq. . .ok makes sense. (Khanjari is a challenging quest, and deserves its stats. . .but holy crap man don't nerf valhalla even more). The other items that got their 'balls' cut off are even worse. Magi staff worse than Airship staves? Isha marginally better than dragonskin cloaks? Downgrading the crescent moon amulet to a glorified ring of darkness for the neck? (uh, rogues already have sneak and if they made it to tia I sure as hell don't think a perm sneak item is going to help them *that* much. Invis? worthless in most zones, especially to a rogue that can hide. two lame powers for a rogue). Who knows what happened to volo's and thunderous helm, I don't, but if they're at all like the 'tweaks' to the other items they certainly are not deserved.

I'm sorry this post comes late, but hopefully not too late. Not knowing what the 'new' tia will bring makes making suggestions a bit difficult, but I know that downgrading the current items is not at all deserved or balanced.

So, I would like to open up a dialogue with someone from Areas, to fix this problem please. Would be happy to take this offline via mmails or emails.

Frustratedly,

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Postby Grintor » Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:16 am

how bad is the downgrade? not really familiar with the scepter stats, and i been surprised that all the knowledge i had of eq during soj2 and original toril is pretty much...well crap heh.

maybe taken into context vs. the alternatives it's not so bad? or is it worse considering i understand the zone is not currently doable?


i like how warriors have so many great defensive skills....i hate how much i cant seem to hit that freakin podling with 24 hit at level 11. must be balance somewhere in the middle?
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Postby fotex » Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:20 pm

Well, they have to downgrade all the tia eq across the board, if they plan to put the zone back in again. Because everyone will do the zone till everyone gets their own set of tia eq - and if it kept its old stats, it would pretty much make all the other zones' eq extinct, and no one would do anything but tiamat every boot :?

Of course, we'll have to see the new tiamat zone before we can really fairly judge the eq....
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Postby Ambar » Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:52 pm

hahahahahahahahaha

when Tia gets put back in im quite sure wewont be doing her every boot

hahahahahahahahah
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Postby Dalar » Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:44 pm

I'm defintely biased because I use two khanjaris, but here's my 2 cents.

The amount of time and commitment to getting just one khanjari is enough to do tiamat a bunch of times, AND you get more than just one item from Tiamat. I don't know what scepter is currently, but its high damage dice and its procs alone make it very nice for the amount of stuff you get from tiamat.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby gimaki » Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:47 pm

fotex wrote:Well, they have to downgrade all the tia eq across the board, if they plan to put the zone back in again. Because everyone will do the zone till everyone gets their own set of tia eq - and if it kept its old stats, it would pretty much make all the other zones' eq extinct, and no one would do anything but tiamat every boot :?

Of course, we'll have to see the new tiamat zone before we can really fairly judge the eq....


Umm there is only 1 item per class really, SPOB gear easily dominates Tiagear.

Downgrading khanjari's requires its own thread;) a dagger that makes every weapon in the game (including 2h rare-quests, tiamat) look like a pile of crap, is just wrong.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:04 am

Hey they could've taken your weapon away, given you a part of the new quest to get it back, then never implemented the quest!
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Postby Dalar » Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:03 am

can't u just put tiamat down a tad and let us do it again?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby gimaki » Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:31 am

Dalar wrote:can't u just put tiamat down a tad and let us do it again?


Why down a tad? The mud is vastly more powerful then it was during the previous runs... And according to Fotex its going to be done every boot;)
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Postby Talomis » Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:33 am

thats it, i'm taking bets....100000000000000 to 1 it gets done every boot
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Postby Dalar » Mon Apr 26, 2004 3:39 am

when we did tiamat, it was easy.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Treladian » Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:17 am

Dalar wrote:when we did tiamat, it was easy.


You also had that bug where the 3 ancient reds were hurting themselves with their proc not your group :p

But seriously, Tia as she was even at the hardest of her tweakings probably wouldn't be anywhere near as much of a challenge. There's an extra 2 years or so of new gear that's flowed into the game. The main issue would really just be time and organizing the people for it.
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Postby rylan » Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:30 pm

I dunno, I remember when Touk went in with around 1500hp and died in less than 1 round when Tia's damage per attack was set to something like 25d25 +250. Doesn't matter how much uber eq you have, you're splatter on the wall :p
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Postby fotex » Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:51 pm

gimaki wrote:
Why down a tad? The mud is vastly more powerful then it was during the previous runs... And according to Fotex its going to be done every boot;)


Well, they dg'd the eq substantially, so now it won't be, when it goes in. 8)
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Postby Gormal » Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:54 am

If Tiamat were put in the same way it was before it would be done at least once a week. It really wasn't that hard, refer to lack of pendant usage for evidence.
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Postby chandigar » Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:07 am

I've never done Tiapet... the last time she was in, did we have displace/dscales/inferno etc? There was a gray area mid-soj2 where I stopped playin so I dunno... just curious.
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Postby Gura » Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:57 am

if the ancient red proc was actually doing damage and tia was tweaked to the fullest like she was for evils the last time she was done there would be no chance u could do it 1x a week. Then again it was corny how she got attached in the first place with a fogged room so im kinda glad it got redone.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:12 am

Its all pretty moot considering that the new Tia zone will totally change just about everything except Tiamat herself. The new zone needed to happen, downgrading the 4 sets of existing eq didn't.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:23 am

honestly you really think people will do the new tiamat? would you jake?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Shar » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:00 pm

For all the whining about tiamat being out of the game, she had better get done :P You aren't innocent, Dartan !

*poke*
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Postby gimaki » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:23 pm

That was before the Tiaeq downgrades, now people will hitup seelies instead;)
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Postby Vandic » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:37 pm

gimaki wrote:That was before the Tiaeq downgrades, now people will hitup seelies instead;)


You really think that with all the work that's gone into Tia they'd just dump all the old eq in there and call it a day?

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
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Postby gimaki » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:29 pm

Vandic wrote:
gimaki wrote:That was before the Tiaeq downgrades, now people will hitup seelies instead;)


You really think that with all the work that's gone into Tia they'd just dump all the old eq in there and call it a day?

I find your lack of faith disturbing.


See Erlans.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:20 pm

im still cranky that people are allowed to have these artifacts uniques or whatever you want to call them and the rest of us are supposed to just sit back and wait for tiamat to some day be reimpd which probably wont even be doable.

and the argument for leaving tiamat items old stats cuz different time differenct place is full of holes. First, that argument could be applied to all zones, and a case could be made that eq gotten early in teh wipe should have higher stats than eq that was gotten later in a wipe.

i really dislike eq being in the game that can't be procured by other players except when unique eq is fairly ubiquitous and not concentrated in the hands of 10 players.

i would really like to see a doable tiamat put back in the game. and the tales of tiamat being done every boot are probably exaggerated a lot but not nearly as much as the tales of the impact of "tiamat eq" on other zones... there is only 1 piece per class... how is that going to fuk up every single other zone? tiamat should be experienced by every player in the game... to do so it needs to have the unqualfied best eq in the game or it will end up being another bronze citadel where its been done only a half dozen times because all the people who are good enough to lead it have what they want from the zone.

i would say that a lot of people are waiting for tiamat in one sense or another... incarnating her in anything less than a legendary manner wiht legendary eq could cost the mud a lot of lost interest. bits and procs like DI, INVIS, vigorize, armor, stone, life drain / heal are tiamat worthy.. sneak i still think is broken, but it sure makes running nice.... whatever you do, please let Bronze Citadel be a lesson to the tia implementation.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Dalar » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:41 pm

Shar wrote:For all the whining about tiamat being out of the game, she had better get done :P You aren't innocent, Dartan !

*poke*


innocent? i did spend 10 hours doing such zones, but i don't think the new vision of tiamat is designed for 10 hours.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Shar » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:03 pm

I know you did :) I was watching. Death is always fun to watch.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:25 am

gimaki wrote:
Vandic wrote:
gimaki wrote:That was before the Tiaeq downgrades, now people will hitup seelies instead;)


You really think that with all the work that's gone into Tia they'd just dump all the old eq in there and call it a day?

I find your lack of faith disturbing.


See Erlans.


Yes, but work has actually been done on Tiamat, that's the difference. :P

*Alot* of work, by multiple areas and coders...
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Postby gimaki » Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:14 pm

Shevarash wrote:
gimaki wrote:
Vandic wrote:
gimaki wrote:That was before the Tiaeq downgrades, now people will hitup seelies instead;)


You really think that with all the work that's gone into Tia they'd just dump all the old eq in there and call it a day?

I find your lack of faith disturbing.


See Erlans.


Yes, but work has actually been done on Tiamat, that's the difference. :P

*Alot* of work, by multiple areas and coders...


Until it showed up in its current condition, I was told *alot* of work had been put into Erlans;)
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Postby Eilistraee » Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:10 pm

As the one who's more or less wound up taking over examing item procs and the like, I can guarantee coding has taken place on the new tiamat.

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Postby Gormal » Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:10 am

I'd do the new Tiamat if the rewards will be as I understand they'll be. However... its stupid to downgrade all of the current items because once the new zone comes in, they'll be balanced against the new items.

There's no telling when the new tia will get done or even come in... so until then those items were downgraded for no reason. Lets not forget that the classes most affected by these downgrades were melee... yeah, what this MUD really needs is the screw your top-tier melee'ers a little more.

Put those items back to their former glory and make the new ones have weaker stats. We worked hard to prepare for Tiamat, not knowing how hard it would be. Evils and goodies both did so many ress quests just for pendants, despite how long and annoying it is now.
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Postby Gura » Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:43 am

all ill say is this. i wont be the first person to try and lead tia. ill wait till it gets done at least 2x incase there's multiple items but imo i bet its gonna be another magma.
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Postby Waelos » Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:25 am

Hate to keep bringing this up but if you're gonna downgrade tiamat items because they were 'too easy to get' then how in the sake of hot butter can you have NOT downgraded all the Khanjari's that were quested to godliness with a few plat?

Gormal is right. Those who quested, saved, fought and did all they could to be in the position to do Tiamat for the first few times certainly deserve the rewards they got (if not more). It takes a lot more than just being around to get to Tiamat for the first few runs, let alone being lucky enough to win something. Those items were earned.

I think alot of people forget what the game was like back then. We were either all new, or vets who were just coming back into a 'groove'. There were no Elementalists. There were no upgraded bards. There was no wormhole, many quest spells hadn't been implemented. So much has changed.

Anyway, just wanted to add more of my thoughts to this post.

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Postby torkur » Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:01 am

Waelos wrote:
I think alot of people forget what the game was like back then. We were either all new, or vets who were just coming back into a 'groove'. There were no Elementalists. There were no upgraded bards. There was no wormhole, many quest spells hadn't been implemented. So much has changed.
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While this is a valid point I agree with personally, it could be used to explain a lot of zone gear gotten early in the wipe keeping old stats.....

How would you pick what stayed the same as old stats and what was nerfed?

If you choose everything up until changes, the eq changes do nothing for balance.....if you choose a different date, how do you cut it off? If you choose only Tiamat eq, you're playing favorites to a select few because others spent just as long in other zones at that time, but weren't in the 4 guilds who got to do tiamat, so were left out for that reasoning. The blanket downgrades can only be somewhat fair if it affects all items for everyone unfortunately.

Torn's mithril hammer broke this way of thinking and everybody was pissed, old roots belt was the same way. Khanjari daggers (or however they're spelled) still do break the rule, which makes no sense to me, but otherwise it has been consistent at least.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:51 pm

I wasn't in any guild and I did Tiamat twice. What are you talking about with Torin's hammer? We all got them taken away for a redone quest which still hasn't been finished in over a year. Torins was in NO way comparable to khanjari... It was not much more then a fun toy, I've never had a Torin's proc save my life.
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Postby torkur » Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:05 am

You were guilded with half of them last wipe as Kildran, no? Not a "noob" who never got the chance to go and was putting in multi-death jot runs at the time.

And Torin's still would've been fun for my dorf to have as well, but by the time I had even heard of it, it was out of the game save the 4 that had been done. Not a khanjari, but some of us measure things on "fun factor" and accessibility, not on grossly overpowered.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:02 am

who cares if gormal was guilded with half of them or giving them favors? oops my bad jake!

anyways, i wouldn't mind leading tiamat if everyone doesn't AFK (i don't afk while i lead btw). just know how to play your class and you're in, which is pretty much the case for everyone because of the low pbase.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ambar » Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:12 am

I wasn't guilded :) I got to do Tiamat twice :) In fact i was a lvl 47 Ogre shaman when I went to my death many, many times ..

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Postby Sarell » Sat May 01, 2004 12:35 am

I hope plaque is going someplace in new zone? :9

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