Exp tables

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Dalar
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Exp tables

Postby Dalar » Sat May 01, 2004 10:47 pm

I just finished my 3rd lvl 50, a rogue. I found the rogue extremely easy to level compared to my current projects, a warrior and illusionist. Can we please have the exp tables for every class/race evened out? Most race/class combinations already have their advantages and disadvantages and exp shouldn't be a factor in how fast they level. IMHO we need fair exp tables so the high levels can have some people to group with and the newer players don't get bored.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby fotex » Sat May 01, 2004 11:01 pm

we should probably note that dalar prolly had 2 khanjari's :p
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Postby Birile » Sun May 02, 2004 3:27 am

fotex wrote:we should probably note that dalar prolly had 2 khanjari's :p


Regardless, rogues have an extremely easy table and guess what? Compared to the enchanter who seems to have the most difficult time getting exp there are generally 2 to 3 times as many level 50 rogues on at any given time and scores upon scores of level 50 rogue alts floating about. Yeah, rogues are fun to play but why do we give one of the two most stressful zoning classes (enchanter, the other one being cleric) THE hardest exp table? It's really no wonder both sides of the race wars have a difficult time finding one sometimes.
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Sun May 02, 2004 1:40 pm

Birile wrote:
fotex wrote:we should probably note that dalar prolly had 2 khanjari's :p


Regardless, rogues have an extremely easy table and guess what? Compared to the enchanter who seems to have the most difficult time getting exp there are generally 2 to 3 times as many level 50 rogues on at any given time and scores upon scores of level 50 rogue alts floating about. Yeah, rogues are fun to play but why do we give one of the two most stressful zoning classes (enchanter, the other one being cleric) THE hardest exp table? It's really no wonder both sides of the race wars have a difficult time finding one sometimes.


I do agree that Enchanter exp tables are way too hard. Atleast for the mid lvls. If it's not DS/Ship xp, the most I can get in a group my level is about 1/2-1% per kill.v Killing dockmasters that con pretend I'm dead gives me 1% in a 3 man group. Gimme a break.

This, IMO, forces pleveling upon enchanters. I I hadn't gotten the help I did, I'm 100% sure I would have said screw it long ago and rolled a voker or something. DS/Ship xp is the only thing that is bearable.

I dont think rogue exp tables are too easy though...Dalar and I spent hours and hours 2 man ds, 2 man xp in the best xp zone in the game. I expected to level fast! But also I didn't learn much. To break the horrible DS pattern, Dalar took us to Randars, and THAT was a change. Not near as good xp as DS but much more challenging and fun at the time.

Point behind all the blabber:
Decrease enchanter exp difficulty, leave rogue the same.
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Postby Dalar » Sun May 02, 2004 3:01 pm

Another thing to look at is the exp table from 46-50. They seem to be 2x harder than 40-45.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun May 02, 2004 4:28 pm

Prime reason i haven't played an enchanter seriously:

Exp too hard. period. level 10X slower than rogues at LEAST to 40.
Even without khanjaris rogues still level faster than anything i've seen. Now, given that there are so many rouges, there really isn't a point to leveling one anymore, but that is neither here nor there. As far as i can tell it's all about the damage exp, and rogues, as we know, do a ton of damage.
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Postby Tesil2 » Sun May 02, 2004 7:10 pm

Dalar wrote:Another thing to look at is the exp table from 46-50. They seem to be 2x harder than 40-45.


Wasn't it a year or so ago that they made levels 1-46 like 20% easier, but dumped all the exp into levels 46-50...making them seem to take forever now? Or was it changed back?
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Postby Ambar » Sun May 02, 2004 8:18 pm

or keep xp tables but make xp per spell higher?

clerics heal:
let them get better xp while healing (only if tank is HURT to prevent healing self bots)

chanters chant:
make haste/blur/scale/stone xp better? sucks to see the rogue YOU hasted get mega xp and you pluggin away

illusionists:
displace! same thing .. make it xp to cast the displace on the fighting tank
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Postby fotex » Mon May 03, 2004 4:57 am

Tesil2 wrote:
Dalar wrote:Another thing to look at is the exp table from 46-50. They seem to be 2x harder than 40-45.


Wasn't it a year or so ago that they made levels 1-46 like 20% easier, but dumped all the exp into levels 46-50...making them seem to take forever now? Or was it changed back?

yep
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Postby Sesexe » Mon May 03, 2004 7:03 am

fotex wrote:we should probably note that dalar prolly had 2 khanjari's :p


FYI, I got a rogue to 41 in 3 RL days, and I didn't have a khanjari. Just a gcd and an etched (about 30/30 total), plus the necro with vamp curse and haste and using a spectre to tank everything for me - ungrouped I might add (I mention that cuz of the recent pet exp stealing change put back cuz it was 'too powerful' - wutever :P). Coulda gotten 50 within a week if I felt like keeping on it I suppose.

I don't understand why enchanter has such rough exp tables. Either their table needs to be reduced, or another way for them to acquire exp in groups needs to be figured out. Either way, an invoker should have an exp table that is 2-3x's worse then the enchanters.

Don't EVEN say clerics are hard to level or have rough exp tables. Got a cleric to 41 in a little over a week. Heal exp. If your tank is tanking damage, you're not gonna get exp. The end. It's not rocket science.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Mon May 03, 2004 4:00 pm

Sesexe wrote:Don't EVEN say clerics are hard to level or have rough exp tables. Got a cleric to 41 in a little over a week. Heal exp. If your tank is tanking damage, you're not gonna get exp. The end. It's not rocket science.


So, if it takes 3 days to get a rogue to 41, and it takes a little over a week to get a cleric to 41, this is balanced enough? I think it just shows exactly how much rogues are off. Yes enchanters are far worse, but still probbably isn't right. Just a thought.
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Postby Dalar » Mon May 03, 2004 4:11 pm

i got my rogue to lvl 40 in less than a day of playing time...
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Sesexe » Mon May 03, 2004 6:02 pm

Delmair Aamoren wrote:So, if it takes 3 days to get a rogue to 41, and it takes a little over a week to get a cleric to 41, this is balanced enough? I think it just shows exactly how much rogues are off. Yes enchanters are far worse, but still probbably isn't right. Just a thought.



My point was only that you don't need the uber K-daggers to level a rogue fast. I feel rogues are far to easy to level. In my opinion their exp tables are not steep enough for rogues. I do not feel this is balanced. That is correct.
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Postby fotex » Mon May 03, 2004 11:20 pm

Another difference to note: you both were powerleveling with equipment that your rogue didn't earn on his lonesome. You weren't exactly leveling up with eq that your rogues personally acquired through zoning. Let's not forget that the first person to reach 50 (who levelled with eq he earned personally) this wipe was a paladin. It's one thing to balance the game from a new wipe standpoint; it's another to balance the tables once everyone's perfectly optimized every little melee hit/dam point to perfection.

Unfortunately casters just can't really use as much eq to get plevelled, like rogues or other meleers can.

Also, the to-hit tables were reduced for rogues not too long ago so that they could wear and do a little more dmg. I doubt xp tables were tweaked to compensate for that.
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Postby Gormal » Tue May 04, 2004 1:15 am

yayaril solo'd to what... almost 40 at the beginning of the wipe with his rogue. It didn't take him long either.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue May 04, 2004 12:48 pm

I basically solo'd to around 40 from the beginning of the wipe. I was still fairly new to the game and didn't know jack, and it took me a long time. I keep trying to level a caster, but I don't have the patience for it. I get so sick of them after level 20 that I just can't stand it. I was working on a little elementalist, but when pets went back to taking exp on top of those exp tables, I just rolled my eyes and didn't bother logging her back in. I certainly don't have the time and resources to devote to doing experience now that I'm not mudding full time. Everybody and their dog has a rogue alt now, though, so I'm not sure the answer is really dumbing down the experience tables for casters.

Nobody wants to spend all their time doing exp, but I think what people are showing here is that they don't have to... Three days to level to 50??? That's just obscene. Why bother with that? I'm all for putting in the time and effort to level at first, to get to know the game mechanics, to develop your character and player skills, but if it only takes three days for somebody to level a rogue to 50 and a week to level a caster, then what is really the point? The hardcore players with the best equipment are still going to breeze through experience in no time, and the newer players (and players like me who just can't devote ourselves so fully) are still going to struggle with the caster tables and end up frustrated and disgusted with them.

I don't think there's a completely easy solution to the issue, but I wouldn't cry if rogue exp tables were increased drastically. It might take me back to level 45, considering how often I die, but that's something I'd just have to deal with. Sometimes the "who rogue" list is almost as long as all the other lists combined, and it cheapens the class. Personally, I don't see why people are driven to level rogues, since casters are capable of so much more in the game, and if they want to really stretch their solo capabilities they'd be better off investing the time into something like an Elementalist. Is it right, however, to give the classes even experience tables when there's not an even power distribution between them?

On another note... I guess if the powerleveled can level a character in a week, there doesn't need to be any mechanism in the game for purchasing experience, which is something people keep asking for. Too bad, because it sure would be nice if I could trade some of my oh-so-valuable prestige in order to apprentice some young mage, offering them the benefits of my status and worldly knowledge.
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Postby Khemed » Tue May 04, 2004 1:46 pm

I agree that the exp tables on Sojourn are somewhat harsh, I have been trying to level my necromancer since october and have yet to progress past level 21. It is especially difficult for new players like me who have neither the equipment passed from more experienced alts nor many friends who will group with them (either to power-level or level their own alts).

I have, since starting Khemed, gone through the entire who list with a request somewhere along the lines of "Greetings, would you be interested in exp together" and had everyone tell me that they were either busy or not interested. I also loose about 20% experience every time I die, which at my level requires me to kill about 20 mobs to regain my previous position (Combat + Mem + Healing time adds up).

These two factors frustrated me so much that I left for a few months to do other things and now I have returned I find that my pets have started stealing exp from me again.

This is not a post criticizing the harshness of the exp tables. This is a post to show just how difficult it is as a newbie on a mud where I would say more than 90% of players is above level 45, many with multiple level 50 characters. Those of you who can level a character to 50 in 3 days to 1 week of play time share the love and let us newbies experience more of the mud than mindless, repetative exp! Most true newbies won't ask for power leveling, but if someone wishes to show me new areas and perhaps provide some tanking or healing I know I for one would be very happy!

Also, to the someone who gave me platinum in Baldurs Gate so I could hop a ship to my corpse. Many thanks!!
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Postby Sarvis » Tue May 04, 2004 2:07 pm

Khemed wrote:I have, since starting Khemed, gone through the entire who list with a request somewhere along the lines of "Greetings, would you be interested in exp together" and had everyone tell me that they were either busy or not interested. I also loose about 20% experience every time I die, which at my level requires me to kill about 20 mobs to regain my previous position (Combat + Mem + Healing time adds up).


When you die, look into getting a ress from any high level cleric. NEcros get the preserve spell too, so if none are on or they are all busy you can preserve your corpse(s) until you find someone willing to ress you. This gets you back pretty much all the exp you lose from dying.

Not saying you are wrong about how difficult it is to level as a newb, just pointing out something which may help out a bit. ;)
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Postby Khemed » Tue May 04, 2004 4:22 pm

Sarvis wrote:When you die, look into getting a ress from any high level cleric. NEcros get the preserve spell too, so if none are on or they are all busy you can preserve your corpse(s) until you find someone willing to ress you. This gets you back pretty much all the exp you lose from dying.

Not saying you are wrong about how difficult it is to level as a newb, just pointing out something which may help out a bit. ;)


Yeah I've been doing that, but even when I pres and drag my corpse back to somewhere with heavy traffic like Turning Point or Baldurs Gate Auction House it takes time to find a cleric of high enough level. Then I have been told numerous times I'm too low level to worry about getting a ress! This all could be time I'm slowly inching my way up in levels, and is extra frustrating when told basically "You don't matter enough to get a ress"
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Postby Depok » Tue May 04, 2004 4:34 pm

I have recently been working on leveling up two casters (elementalist and Enchanter). Both are now lvl 21 and both are a nightmare to level with. The issue as we all know is damage exp.

As an enchanter it is all I can do to mem one spell in the time it takes my group to kill a mob on first level monestary. If we go to the second floor I am in and out meming the one stone I have. groups don't want to wait while you unload your offense and re mem it.

Keep in mind that casters are always meming out so enchanters are not getting the stone skin exp that was added.

So how to change that?

Decrease the mem times for the lower circle spells from the get go (My Gnome Enchanter has a 119 int and still mems a 5th circle stone in 20 seconds). In 20 seconds the fight is over or the tank is dead.

Give more spell slots upon leveling in the early levels (till 30). No one uses spells to level up until 20 anyway.

Give more offense to elementalists and enchanters in spell circles below 6th (no one really uses damage spells below 6th anyway). Is an enchanter getting fireball in the 3rd circle that unbalancing?

The most useful is probably the first one. Mem times are a time sink at low levels. No reason for them to be so long.
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Postby Dalar » Tue May 04, 2004 5:20 pm

There's only one MUD i've played on that had harder exp. Imperial DIKU. It was hard because exp NEVER ended. Once you went through the ranks, which took me almost a year, you exp'd to invest in your dragon form. The only way to even get that high was to have friends who played (many people were Finnish and helped each other out) or play a useful class that everyone needed. Since I didn't know anyone, I asked around, found out healer was the most stackable and most needed class. I stuck with it, hit the max rank, and became a dragon. Had I gone with paladin, I dont' think I would have ever gone far and just quit.

Khemed, you're playing a necro, one of the most useless classes in game. At least they're one trick ponies now with soul walk, but that's only useful in !teleport zones which nobody ever does anymore (BC and Hulburg are poorly itemized). I'm guessing you don't know many people or anyone because you live in Japan (i think you told me this before). I'd highly suggest playing a useful class if you wanted to truly play the game and then go back to necro when you have a better feel for the game. You may not like that advice, but it's the easiest way to level in a game that hasn't wiped in a while. Even if the game pwiped tomorrow, I highly doubt you will get a group as a necro. Go enchanter and I assure you that you will get exp groups all the time.

Also, your method for asking everyone to plevel you/group isn't a good idea. I know everyone in the zone group I was in was just laughing because they all got the same tell within minutes of each other.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby chandigar » Tue May 04, 2004 5:33 pm

Khemed:

Look me up sometime (Chandigar/Akazar/Neddek) and I'll see if I can't help ya out with solo tips or advice or exp locations or whatever. I had noob eq with my necro for the first 40 levels or so and it didn't hurt me too much.

Usually just asking a lvl 50 to group is a bad idea because people immediately expect that you want them to plevel you. Asking someone for advice on how to exp etc will most likely get you better results.
Last edited by chandigar on Tue May 04, 2004 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue May 04, 2004 5:36 pm

Another option for when you wish to speak with higher level characters, is look for the ones who aren't grouped. The who command has a number of switches available - you can see this list by typing who ?

If you look for ungrouped players, you aren't guaranteed that they aren't busy, but it is a start.
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Postby Demuladon » Tue May 04, 2004 9:58 pm

On the flip side of the coin.. a rogue of some sort is a good place for a newbie to start the game. Easy to level with ordinary lowbie gear, good for exploring, can do own CR's, good class for questing. When newbie gets to lvl 35-40, have a feel for the game at that level but find they aren't needed much for zoning (being dime-a-dozen), they can switch across to a more useful class.
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Postby Lenefir » Tue May 04, 2004 10:01 pm

Hmm... I don't really know... Sure, it isn't very hard to do exp with a rogue if you manage to get into a group, which btw isn't that easy with all the rogues floating around ;), but if you end up with solo exp, I personally don't think it is that easy to get the exp... At least it seems to take ages for me to kill a mob and heal up... And the one time I was invited to a zone *panic* the cleric was very kind to me and kept me vitted all the time (I think to the dismay of some others in group) or else two or three areas would most likely have killed me every time... It seems to me that tanking rogues or rogues taking area damage die as fast as any spellcaster... Always believed the relatively easy exp tables for melee classes were to compensate for them very often dying more than other classes... but then, I might be wrong (as usual)... Besides, many of the most used melee types skills can't be practiced if just running around doing exp, but painstaking have to be practiced either alone or with another willing person, while all caster skills are happily practiced every time you cast a spell and mem, or just doing exp...

Ok, I'm rambling... Just ignore me like usual if you don't already:P
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Postby ssar » Wed May 05, 2004 4:02 am

Just want to say I believe rogues gain exp too fast from what I have seen, even without super eq.

And it seems chanters and (lower level) necros gain exp too slowly, all things considered.
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Postby Gura » Wed May 05, 2004 3:54 pm

i really just skimmed through this thread so if im repeating someone then oops. maybe the problem with xp tables is that damage experience is significantly greater than heal xp or the xp enchanters get from keeping someone stoned. if they were all equal i don't see there being a problem in balance with the tables across the board but i think we can see how it works. A rogue levels fast. An invoker levels fast. Hell, my ogre in DS with pestilence leveled fast.
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Postby Ihazim » Wed May 05, 2004 5:29 pm

don't rogues normally level fast in DnD anyways? isn't there a point to that? im not sure since im not familiar with dnd but maybe someone could explain.
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Postby Treladian » Wed May 05, 2004 6:31 pm

Ihazim wrote:don't rogues normally level fast in DnD anyways? isn't there a point to that? im not sure since im not familiar with dnd but maybe someone could explain.


Thieves used to in previous editions of D&D because they didn't really get much from levels. All they got were skill points and an increased backstab multiplier. Backstab itself was generally an all or nothing deal, either you got lucky and rolled high with a longsword, or you rolled low and wound up doing about as much damage with your one good attack as the fighter normally does with one swing of their sword. Daggers and shortswords aren't as good of a choice of weapons for a thief since backstab worked off of a multiplier that worked on the base damage the thief did, which was mostly just based on what the weapon they were using could do. You also had to be sneaking for a backstab to work so it was pretty much only something you might be able to do once per fight unless you kept invisibility potions around. Thieves gained no additional attacks as they went up in level, being stuck with just one attack unless they heavily invested in the proficiencies required for two weapon fighting, and spells could eat them for lunch.

3rd edition D&D changed the class from thief to rogue and made the class more versatile. Sneak attack, which has replaced backstab, can be used on every attack that satisfied certain requirements and works quite well with daggers and other light weapons. Rogues now get additional attacks as they go up in level. They gained a evasion abilities that could let them ignore the brunt or entirety of an offensive spell. In short, the rogue can actually function well in combat while the old thief was pretty much out of their element once initiative was rolled. 3rd edition also made exp tables equal across the board since all classes now had worthwhile abilities as they leveled.

Guess which of these two Sojourn's rogue class resembles more? I don't think it's a coincidence that D2 unveiled his plans to revamp the old thief and assassin classes into one rogue class complete with an evasion feature a few months after 3rd edition D&D was officially released. While all the classes in the game are far from balanced, the rogue has come a long, long way from the days of the thief class in both D&D and the MUD.

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