Player Attitude

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Wobb
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Player Attitude

Postby Wobb » Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:02 am

Wake up call:

You tell x 'you got time to res a poor chap out by ds?'

x tells you 'ill ress it if its dragged to tp or wd'

You tell x 'its temple of the moon...can you make the extra jaunt...i'll run outta moves'

x tells you 'i could but i generally dont except under extreme conditions. your askign for the ress'

I was asking for res for a friend, not myself. And this person preferred to stand under the Inn in WD.

So this is how people end up? I hope other clerics aren't as fucking rude....you forget what shit we went through to help you get that quest. I really hope this is an isolated incident and other people aren't getting this selfish and lazy. I purposefully left out names so if the cleric in question reads this, dont bother replying it will only inflame the situation.

Wobb
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Postby Tida » Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:06 am

I know, speaking for myself, if I'm not busy I try to help if I am asked. so yes, I would have to agree that I would hope that is just an isolated incident.
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Postby Mplor » Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:07 am

From the cheap seats:

That doesn't sound particularly rude to me. I never used to ask anyone but Varia to come ress me on location. For any other cleric, I had the decency to bring my corpse to them. After all, they are doing you a favor, not the other way around. :)
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Postby Gormal » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:48 am

What work did you personally do to get this individual ress that you feel comfortable demanding that they cast it where you point? You didn't want to drag because you would run out of moves so you hadn't even started moving the corpse to shorten that cleric's walk. We run out of moves when we cast the spell.
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Postby Salen » Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:58 am

Sending it to smoke woulod be a plus also. We (elves and humans) can shift then word and be back in no time.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:46 pm

when I do resses ... i ask that people drag the corpse to the tent .. i often get rude responses to the effect of *cant you come to me?*

err no

im a dayblind duergar resser that finds it convenient to both evils and goodies to be camped at the tent ... dunno how many times i have run from GH to find the paladork group blind-sided me outside Gob caves .. and had to run fast while blind to the tent to avoid it ...

i will however ress on smoke or if gated down i will go anywhere ....


-Have Ress .. WILL travel .. Karikhan, duergar cleric

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Postby Ashemiem » Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:32 pm

Wake up call.

We derive absolutely no benefit from having resurrect. It makes us the bitch of the rest of the mud. We can't self res, we can only cast it on others. The entire spell is there to help us make YOUR lives easier.

Many clerics, by the time they've had the spell for even two months, have cast it a sufficient number of times to have ressed the entire group that helped them four times apiece. There's nothing owed there, it's not like the cleric gains anything other than possibly some other groups from the spell. I don't forget what shit people went through for my res, but I'm entitled to place conditions on the efforts I'll go to in order to res people.

The best part is when we get blamed for a res failure too. That's a real hoot.

You want a res, toss the resser a bone and do what they're asking. We put up with more shit being a resser than our groups put up with to get us the spell in the first place.

And no, I wasn't the resser in the above post. I'm retired.

/Soapbox
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Postby Dalar » Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:34 pm

YOU GOT SERVED!

If you want a res, you drag it to that person. It's not like everyone is playing the game at the same time. That person could be doing something and not have time.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby digov » Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:43 pm

Hold up. You are mad because the resser asked you bring the corpse to him?

To me, thats rude. You're asking him to do you a favor and you can't even do your part? Its not that big of a deal to drag your own corpse, or your pals corpse to the resser, seriously. Get over it.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:51 pm

I get so many resses, I should go on the road with my drag show. Luckily I have access to the guild's clerics, who are the most wonderfully helpful, especially Branthur, who will go out of his way to make sure my corpses get taken care of. If I ever have to use an out-of-guild cleric, I make sure I do whatever they need me to do in order to get a ress, because I know they're doing me a favor. I get asked for bits and bobs all the time, and I don't mind helping gather needed items for anybody, except when they seem to expect me to go out of my way to help them and they're not hardly willing to do anything to help me help them. It's as much a courtesy to the person you're asking a favor from to do whatever you can to make their job easier as it is for them to go out of their way to help you.
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Postby Gyrx » Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:46 pm

Ashemiem wrote:Wake up call.

We derive absolutely no benefit from having resurrect. It makes us the bitch of the rest of the mud. We can't self res, we can only cast it on others. The entire spell is there to help us make YOUR lives easier.

/Soapbox


I've small-grouped many of the zones with many different group combinations. I've led every zone multiple times with many different group combinations. There is one class that is static in the group combinations that involves chances of death: clerics with ress.

This goes for everything except B.C.: Don't have an enchanter? It's ok, we have a shaman or elementalist. Don't have a shaman, it's ok, we have a bard/battlechanter. Don't have a shaman or bard/battlechanter, it's ok we have a cleric or more. Don't have an illus, it's ok, we zoned without illus' before and we'll do it again. Don't have an invoker, it's ok we have these other forms of damage output. Don't have a warrior, feh who needs warriors? The list goes on and on, simply can't replace ress in many zones, period.

Derive absolutely no benefit from having resurrect? You have the most demanding zone invite out there.

Every time you die you lose 20-26% of our experience never to get it back - everyone would quit right quick. Seems to me like the spell is there to help make everyones lives easier.

Ashemiem wrote:Many clerics, by the time they've had the spell for even two months, have cast it a sufficient number of times to have ressed the entire group that helped them four times apiece.


I'm curious as to how many clerics out there actually learned the spell from scratch. I know it's rare because most clerics are rushed through so that the other half of the primary ability (first half being full heal) can be used in a zone. But when's the last time a cleric actually wanted to learn the quest for themselves? I've had a cleric tell me before they didn't want the spell just handed to them (for various reasons) and that was perfectly fine, if they want to actually learn it then kudos to them, they can have all the time they need.

But how many people out there actually figured the quest out for themselves and didn't simply have it handed to them or told to them by someone else? And of those people that told it to them, how many people told it to the people before them before someone actually learned it? It seems to me that everyone who didn't actually bunker down and figure out what step to do next "owes something" to those people that figured out the quest in the first place, however far back the chain goes. And that "something" can't really have a value put on it's head! (the same can be said for any number of other quests, learning zones, and everything)

Now, back to the real problem: downgrade ress fx! :p

Thank you, please drive through.
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Postby Ashemiem » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:05 pm

bahahahahaha

I'm sorry, I always get a kick out of people trying to buy credibility by listing their leading credentials. It's kind of like when my teacher in college listed four columns of different certifications, but he still had no clue how to address the class. Tiamat's been done 4 times, multiple implies three or more and half of those runs were done by different sides of the racewars. How many times have you led Magma and IC2?

Try to avoid using absolutes like 'leading every zone multiple times' mkay? It discredits your attempt to purchase credibility.

Sure we get zone invites as a ressing cleric. Know what? I got zone invites as a non-ressing cleric too. Full heals prevent the need for res when done correctly. Res in a zone is a convenience that's nice to have, but with corpse glamor and soul walk it's not required. Most of the zones these days leaders will only res if somebody is in danger of losing level, otherwise they pres up and res afterwards.

I enjoyed being a resser for awhile, it was nice to help. Then people started to feel I 'owed' them something, and the fun started to go away real quick.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:22 pm

two things. first, it seems that ash is changing the subject here, perhaps he knows he is at least a little bit wrong. If _I_ am going to do a favor for anyone, they need to be putting forth some effort too. being lazy and having the cleric come to you should only happen when the cleric offers it. I personally see people lower than 20th level asking for resses pretty consistently. at that level, go get yer exp back the old school way. kill shit. you'll loose more exp by dragging corpse back to WD, finding cleric, waiting out ress lag, and then getting back to wherever you were. hell, if i had it my way, corpses under 20th level would be unressable.
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Postby Cordan » Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:28 pm

I'm in agreement with Wobb, to a certain extent. Personally, whoever the cleric was did seem to have an attitude about the situation. It's one thing to politely say "if you don't mind could you bring it up to TP or tent, etc, etc...." But it's another to act like "I got ress, I'm the badass, you do what I say or no ress for you!". That's just being plain childish. Personally I think ress would be a wonderful spell to have. I think it's awesome to have a spell that can help anyone out. Granted there are times when you're less than happy to cast it for one reason or another, but still, it's no reason to be a prick. I mean damn, make a few more keystrokes and give the guy his ress, he's happy, you can be happy for making someone happy. Of course, I'd hate to stress those fingers out to much....
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Postby Wobb » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:17 pm

Thank you Cordan. That was the only point I was trying to make, its the attitude, not the res itself.

And for those who still don't get it, the person died in temple, east of buffalos. The cleric was doing Nothing (had been sitting under waterdeep inn for at least an hour). I drug the dead guys corpse to edge of zone, and was low on moves. Now, he was willing to come to TP, i thought wow that's great. TP and buffalos are pretty close, maybe he can walk a few more rooms.

but no, read the response "only under extreme circumstances" wtf does that mean? Come on.

I have a resser, had one several wipes ago too. I know what it's like, I know what it's like to be hounded for res, or for shift. Same goes for moonwell etc...

All I'm getting at is the pbase attitude in recent months is really getting arrogant, selfish and unfriendly. not--everyone just a select few.

I was on as an alt today and people started talking about me whining here on the BBS not realizing I was Wobb. Their reaction: well damn he whines like that I'm not gonna res him either....

I rest my case. People are just getting ruder. You don't need my whiney ass to see it...just log on.

Wobb
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:17 pm

Lemme step around the flame war developing here and answer your question directly Wobb.

I normally make it a habbit of providing transportation for the cleric/resser TO and FROM the corpse to be ressed reguardless of the distance if it is not in the same zone. Yes I realize he/she was in WD Inn, and this was DS, it's still a walk. It still takes time. I AFK a lot, doesn't mean I'm not busy. In fact when I'm AFK, it's because I AM busy, busy as hell! If a resser wishes to suggest to me to just take it to smoke, I'll work with them. Not all my characters are taxis, so I often have to find myself a way of arranging the transportation via someone else.

I find doing it this way seems to show respect to all parties involved.
-It shows the resser you are willing to work with them.
-When the resser shows up out of a gate/well/hole, it appears to the person being ress'd that they actually cared to come so far (which is ironic since most times it's because you got them there), but either way makes the ressee appreciate the effort of the resser coming, and the effort you went to by arranging it.
-The resser feels good to some degree for the graditude expressed by the ressee upon arrival.
-Finally when you taxi the resser back, the resser appreciates your effort and because of this, it's usually not hard to get them when you need them for another ress.
-Sometimes because they know you from before as someone who tries to arrange transportation, and they'll forgo their normal habbits sometimes and walk it themselves. A final way of showing respect back to you.

Make it easier on them and make it easier on yourself in the long run I guess. *shrug*
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Postby Dalar » Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:36 am

How is the resser selfish? YOU'RE asking for the res. YOU bring the corpse to him. He is in no way obligated to go to your corpse and do it. You should be even glad he responded to your tell. What if he's at work? Doing something more important than playing this game? Ever think about that?
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Postby Artmar » Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:18 pm

Yeah, for all you know that cleric could have been busy doing something RL (it's quite likely, actually). Who knows, he might have decided to come anyway if you asked real nice, and gave him some good reasons (outta moves is just not good enough). His reasons for wanting to stay at WD are not really important anyway - it's not like ressing anyone was his obligation or something. Like he said, YOU have asked for ress - you should have been grateful that he agreed at all.
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Postby Sarell » Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:34 pm

shrug dalar, ... then the cleric could say 'sorry busy atm' ....
for any further nice ways to say things, just holler :)

I had a situation once where I died in HP and couldnt get back there due to lag, I asked a cleric if they were busy and if they would mind helping me out, they fixed me right up, was no problem... again, isnt very hard to say 'sorry busy atm' or something else polite. If you have time to be logged on to the mud you most probably have time to respond to reasonable requests. If you have time to respond at all, don't be a dick... the initial example given was pretty weak, running out of moves, consider that clerics do get a few tells, however if they were indeed doing nothing, what's the problem, they didnt seem particularly rude however it gets FAR worse than this.

On a side note, when asking for a well, im NEVER doing nothing, but ill prolly well you anyhow :9

Oh and also, in spite of suggestions on this thread, please never ask me to well you from DS/surrounding area from WD even if you are just wanting to move your humble cleric from wd to you for res *wink* Time management.. faster for them to run there and res joo...
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Postby Viclor Voddyn » Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:33 pm

People are more selfish than they were a couple years ago. There is no denying that. Not just about resses, but just in general. Not basing my opinion on one experience.
There's more bitching, whining, etc now.
People are more concerned about themselves than the overall growth and prosperity of the mud. There are those in every mud pbase, but courtesy is an ever-dieing trend. Be courteous, but don't get walked on, thats the only way to reverse it. Positive attitudes are contagious.

Posts like this exploiting it don't help at all. Just bring unneccesary attention to yourself. I know this from experience. :P
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Postby Dalar » Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:52 pm

Well pat, I've had situations where I'm doing homework and people ask me if i'm busy. It always depends. If they want me to CR them then hell no. If they have questions about something then I will usually answer them. If I were doing homework and someone asked me to res someone, I would only if their corpse was there. I really don't have the time to run all the way over there and res him. I don't want to be too distracted you know?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:45 pm

i am that cleric

i expect people to be willing to do more than send a tell to get a ress.

hi can you ress me in zk, oh can you find your own transporation too cuz i mean i know i can send tells, but its much easier if you just do it instead.
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Postby Pril » Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:14 am

but kiryan what baout that time you were busy and still ran into Tia's lair dragged my corpse and res'd me at 1w while i sat in my guild?

Sorry had to add to thread not sur why :p

Pril
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Postby Sarell » Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:55 am

I think the cases where people are logged on to check guild info / do something quick / just practising skills while in other window are absolutely fine, If you're paying enough attention reply politely, 'sorry busy atm', even set up a response trigger. Sure if they ask rudely just ignore them, but please don't berate people for asking for help. I think this thread is looking at the real problem of people pretending they are skeletor or some bad-ass dude just cos they have level 50 and perceive that it gives them some divine right to talk down to people.

I've annoyed Dalar and countless others many a time whlie they are doing their homework / something and must say, I have on the whole, recieved responses that are kind and courteous. I have also had experiences where people have been very rude when I asked if they would res my dorf since they were right near him and not doing much while I would have significant trouble getting corpse to them. Simplistic solution is to ignore the rude people, problem is there is such a low playerbase and sometimes the most frequent players and posters are not always the best representatives for the mud. 2c.
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Postby Cordan » Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:12 pm

Dalar wrote:Well pat, I've had situations where I'm doing homework and people ask me if i'm busy. It always depends. If they want me to CR them then hell no. If they have questions about something then I will usually answer them. If I were doing homework and someone asked me to res someone, I would only if their corpse was there. I really don't have the time to run all the way over there and res him. I don't want to be too distracted you know?


Shouldn't have the mud up when you're doing homework anyways :P

It's not about ress, it's about being polite. For gods sake people.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:37 pm

polite is not whining on the BBS about how kiryan wouldn't run 100 rooms to res someone. you die, you make it YOUR responsibility to get the cleric to the corpse or the corpse to the cleric.
i got an idea. do as much stuff irl as kiryan does on his comp and make a resser THEN tell me if he was wrong or not.
Last edited by Dalar on Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Cordan » Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:37 pm

I concur gormal. Clerics used to provide those items as a service to their clients. =P

Perhaps there is a newer, less sensitive breed of clerics. Perhaps its about time i rolled one and showed everyone how NOT to play a cleric! =)



Found this in another thread. Interesting
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Postby Grizz » Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:06 pm

Cordan wrote:
I concur gormal. Clerics used to provide those items as a service to their clients. =P

Perhaps there is a newer, less sensitive breed of clerics. Perhaps its about time i rolled one and showed everyone how NOT to play a cleric! =)



Found this in another thread. Interesting


Clients make is seem like the cleric is getting paid to perform the service. If a cleric is charging for a rezz then they put themselves in a position to have demands made of them. However, most clerics do rezz's as a selfless act so they shouldn't have expectations placed upon them.
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Postby Ahxeriden Aethorcyn » Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:43 pm

Grizz wrote:
Cordan wrote:
I concur gormal. Clerics used to provide those items as a service to their clients. =P

Perhaps there is a newer, less sensitive breed of clerics. Perhaps its about time i rolled one and showed everyone how NOT to play a cleric! =)



Found this in another thread. Interesting


Clients make is seem like the cleric is getting paid to perform the service. If a cleric is charging for a rezz then they put themselves in a position to have demands made of them. However, most clerics do rezz's as a selfless act so they shouldn't have expectations placed upon them.


Well I dont expect a cleric to ress me like a cleric expects me to rescue them. I do expect a cleric to heal me. I also consider it a clerics duty to ressurect me, unless hes occupied with something else. I can never be *sure* the cleric isn't busy doing something else. Whether it be chatting with a friend, or off in another window. Just because hes stationary in WD doesn't mean he's not busy. But if I bring my corpse tp him/her, I expect a ress unless I'm a total ass. And all I have encountered have done just that. Most clerics are VERY nice.

I, and many others here, like to go out of our way to help people. Doesn't mean everyone else does or is obligated to.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:28 pm

Wobb's cool, Shalath is cool, it's all probably a big misunderstanding snowballing into more than it needs to be.

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Postby Branthur » Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:31 pm

Well, since everyone else has chimed in on what a cleric's job is, figured I'd put in my 2 cents as well. :roll:

First, unless it's in zone, it is NOT a cleric's "duty" to resurrect people. We resurrect people because we're the ones that have the spell. Personally, I enjoy helping people out, casting resurrect or whatever. It's why I play the class. But this idea that it is a cleric's duty to do this whenever is wrong..I'm sorry, but it is.

This is why I say this..once (a while ago now, but still) I was sitting afk at cleric path. I had to run from the computer for 5 minutes to make dinner. I come back to my computer dead. Why? Because someone who obviously thought it was my "duty" to resurrect them drug their corpse into the room, stripped, consented me, and handed me their bag...and their bag had 3 Tridents in it. Scrolling back, they didn't even _ask_ to be resurrected. They just assumed that I would. If we want to talk about bad manners here, let's start with this assumption that if we're standing there, obviously we'll do whatever you demand, without even saying "please".

Now obviously this is an extreme example. This person was a fool for doing this, since if I had just deadlinked being away from the computer for a while they would have had no gear until I logged back on at least.

That being said, however, cleric is a job I love. 99% of the time, if you just ask for a resurrect, I'll be happy to oblige (the 1% is for when Larim asks me *whistle*). Hell, if you're only 20th level, when many other clerics turn you down, I'll be happy to resurrect you. Why? Just the kind of guy I am. I quested the spell to help people out. It certainly wasn't for my own benifit (though it would be lovely if we could self ress..I mean c'mon. my god loves me enough to resurrect other people, but I have to go begging to someone else's god? really..sheesh :wink: )

Without knowing exactly what was going on (if kiryan was busy irl, or talking or whatever) it's easy to say Kiryan's an ass, or Kiryan did the right thing. Whatever. I'd most likely do the walk myself, but if Kiryan doesn't know how to get to buffs we shouldn't blame him. We should just blame the druids. :D

BTW, we are paid..that's what those nice tips on the ground are for after resurrect. I have some con gear with me at all times (lost my bone earrings though). However, if you're an elf with a 50 con, and think I'm an ass for not being able to bring you to 100...well you've obviously been smoking crack.
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Postby Grizz » Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:54 pm

What I meant by being paid is simply put, "I'll give you 1000pp if you come to me and rezz me". That kind of thing. Then it would be more of a Customer/Client relationship. In RL if I am paying for a service I am going to have some expectation.

Ofcourse I expect that if I am zoning the cleric in the group/raid will rezz and they should expect to be rescued and so forth. I am following the line of the thread.
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Postby shalath » Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:12 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Wobb's cool, Shalath is cool, it's all probably a big misunderstanding snowballing into more than it needs to be.

Life is good. Love and orange doughnuts for all.


Hmmm. I've not posted on this one yet. Maybe you were thinking of someone else Ashiwi? Or maybe you just think I'm sooo cool that it becomes second nature to say it? :-)

-shalath
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Postby ssar » Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:47 am

Ashiwi wrote:I get asked for bits and bobs all the time,


When I first read that I thought you said "I get asked for bits and boobs all the time".
And couldn't get that out of my head reading the whole thread.

t sarell u in wd? well me from tp rq eh?
BEER
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:12 pm

shalath wrote:Hmmm. I've not posted on this one yet. Maybe you were thinking of someone else Ashiwi? Or maybe you just think I'm sooo cool that it becomes second nature to say it? :-)


Oh, that's right, you were the one fussing with Ambar, but you're right, you're just that cool. And so, by the way, is Ambar!

Ssar wrote:When I first read that I thought you said "I get asked for bits and boobs all the time".


No difference... if you can't put out an effort on my behalf, don't expect positive results!
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
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Postby shalath » Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:44 pm

Ashiwi wrote:
shalath wrote:Hmmm. I've not posted on this one yet. Maybe you were thinking of someone else Ashiwi? Or maybe you just think I'm sooo cool that it becomes second nature to say it? :-)


Oh, that's right, you were the one fussing with Ambar, but you're right, you're just that cool. And so, by the way, is Ambar!


Hmmm...much as I would really love to "fuss with" Ambar, I'm fairly sure Arilin would murder me :P
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Postby Cordan » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:54 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Love and orange doughnuts for all.



Orange donuts????

And people say grits are nasty :P

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