Input wanted from all angles about Pwipe

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.

Is Pwiping good for the growth or advancement of a MUD (any MUD) *please note this is for information purposes ONLY and is not an annoucement of a Pwipe.*

Pwipe (in general)
12
11%
No pwipe (in general)
35
31%
Pwipe yes, but only on specific terms that would be discussed and well planned.
15
13%
Don't ever pwipe, regardless of the reason.
11
10%
If you Pwiped, I would be traumatized and quit for REAL and never come back, *ever*
2
2%
If you Pwiped, I would act like a drama queen for a while but then I'd be cool.
3
3%
If you Pwiped, I would mourn the loss of my character and eq but I would enjoy being on even ground with everyone.
12
11%
If you Pwiped, I would be more likeley to play more often.
7
6%
If you Pwiped, I'd be OK with it all around.
2
2%
If you Pwiped, I wouldn't enjoy it, but I would still play.
10
9%
Other reason that I will outline below.
4
4%
 
Total votes: 113
Shar
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Input wanted from all angles about Pwipe

Postby Shar » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:14 pm

*WE ARE NOT PLANNING A PWIPE*

The staff have some questions as to what the players think about when they picture a pwipe. Good? Bad? Horrible? Ugly? Etc.etc.etc. What we need from you is a discussion (not flamefest) of every possible angle or point of view out there.

Let us know what you think.

Again, we aren't implementing a pwipe, so don't think that we are. :P

*for more information on why we are discussing, scroll down and read my 2nd post here :)*

DISCUSS! :)
Last edited by Shar on Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sesexe » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:51 pm

The nice thing about never having a pwipe is the elistist, EQ greedy hogs, complete jerk offs who beat everyone else down with their self imposed importance to make themselves seem greater then they really are, eventually get bored and leave because they stuffed their big fat mouths on everything. This in turn allows the rest to finally experience the mud to it's fullest and learn how easy some things actually are to do, and how untalented those who thought so highly of themselves actually were.

Never having a pwipe, in essence, roots out the bad players and keeps a majority of players of quality who care more about fellow players and the environment the mud provides, then their own personal advancement within it.

A pwipe simply allows the same behavior to repeat itself by setting back the clock, instead of allowing it to grow and advance as a community.


What would I do if Toril pwiped? That’s hard to say. I could speculate about it, but who knows. I don’t believe I would disassociate myself from the mud entirely, tho my desire to be a ‘player’ would be dramatically reduced. Because of this, I’d probably be more inclined to be a part of the mud from a different angle.
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Postby Auril » Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:03 am

There is one thing I value with my characters. Identity. What I want for them is their name, race, class, and for a few, height and weight. Equipment changes, all the time. Experience is generally positive, and just happens over time. Skills also get there over time. Those three don't matter as much to me.

Looks like I chose the right sphere, doesn't it?
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NonPwipe Pwipe Thread

Postby Elscint » Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:22 am

my comments on the NPPT
I wouldn't mind a pwipe at all.. would rid the mud of those that feel that they have 'won' or 'beaten' the mud most likely cause they wouldn't want to have to 'do it all over again'.. me on the other hand I'm here for the fun.. the comraderie.. it would help to balance some things as well but I think more balance has to be addressed before a reopening of sorts.. another alpha maybe and fix stuff.. oh well probably getting a little too deep for the level of conversation you wanted here..

Elscint
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Postby Ahxeriden Aethorcyn » Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:35 am

I think its an awesome idea. I think the pbase would rocket up, because of the even playing field. I think bitching would go down.

I wouldn't wanna make a habit of it, like pwiping every year, but I think right now it would totally rock. :D :D :D
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Postby Larem » Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:45 am

pwipes can be good for a mud. but it can also kill it, i don't think it would kill this one, but we would lose a lot of good people, i can see like maybe later on in the year pwiping, but honestly, i don't want anything to happen for at least 5-6 months, give it enough time to hopefully, if ever, put tiamat back in and allow people to do her, and play with the rewards, lets face it, tiamat is always removed after 3-5 trips done on her, and she's never put back, it's been that way since the late 90s, give us tiamat, so that those who would leave us for good will at least get to experience the top thing to do in the mud, would i return? i can't say, i love this place, but i don't know if i wanna spend 2 years leveling up again, whut the hell am i saying, course i'd be here :P i wouldn't let u guyz get away w/o me here to make u all dumber!
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Postby Snurgt » Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:16 am

My contribution to the NPPT (non-pwipe pwipe thread):

First, you keep saying 'we are not implementing a pwipe' so I don't understand the purpose of this poll :p btw: no one believes you.

Anyway, as for a pwipe boosting the pbase? Don't count on it. There are not scores of new players waiting on the sidelines, checking in with toril and see all the level 50's and decide not to play.

Right now its peak hours, after a reboot, and there are 52 players on.
There are 4 evils on. Maybe it isnt peak time for evils, I don't really know. If newbies wanted a fresh start, they could play an evil.

You would absolutely lose a percentage of the pbase. Maybe not a large percentage, but anything would suck at this point. The pbase is small enough already.

If you pwiped, within a month the mud hierarchy would be in place again if not sooner, just with less people.

Personally I would like to see more energy put into new code (guildhalls?), tiamat, etc.

I think the use of a pwipe to solve the problems of this mud is like that picture of the rabbit with the pancake on its head. It just makes no sense.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:52 am

Right now its peak hours, after a reboot, and there are 52 players on.


shrug, I been seeing more like 80, or sometimes 90 players on at peak times.
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Postby Nilan » Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:54 am

I for one am not interested in a pwipe. I think that people put alot into their characters, and its not just all about grabbing gear. Character develope after years of hard work, time and effort. I think a pwipe is devestating. If the gods feel the game is unbalanced some how then why not fix it through gear fixes or zone/area fixes. Obliterating characters is not the answer.

I for one, do not enjoy leveling up characters. Been there, worked very hard to get there, done that. Playing the game , developing ones identity, adventuring is fun.

For those that desire to pwipe and start fresh, there is an option for that, they can roll new character start fresh and do what they think is fun. For those that work hard at getting to where they are at, developing their character, skills, and characters identity, pwipe is not only a devestating let down but it is very frustrating.

I admit for one, that I only returned to Toril when it was stated that there would be no pwipes. This mud has had a history of pwipes, unanounced shutdowns etc... that has been very frustrating for me as a player. Thus upon hearing that there would be no pwipes i decided to come back to play, put time into a character, energy into a character etc.

Dedication to a game and a character takes time and effort. Pwipe is a waste of all the time and energy folks put into their characters.

I am not in favor of one.

Nilan
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:05 am

Larem wrote:put tiamat back in and allow people to do her, and play with the rewards, lets face it, tiamat is always removed after 3-5 trips done on her, and she's never put back, it's been that way since the late 90s


A pwipe results in the same people who were doing Tiamat at the begining of the wipe previously, doing her again with the same people missing out. Then these folks go quiting cuz they did her and are so elite now and she's been pulled now so there's nothing to do so they say I guess I'll play someplace else, and then she's pulled forever until the mud comes under a new name/management, where they come back and do it all over again.

*beep*

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Postby Ashod » Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:34 am

My thoughts on a pwipe...

I have put alot of time in to my characters that I have.. and would hate to have to do it again. I know many agree and would hate to see all the dedicated time go boom. I also think that the best times I had playing this mud was in the begining... running around doing exp at those times was not bad because people all had the anticipation of going to zones(all of them not just a selected elite few.) so people grabed people and exped..

If I had to suggest an option for the mud.. I would suggest that all the work being done now and tested be held off... test them and work the bugs out best as possible on test mud. Project a date to pwipe. On that pwipe put everything that has been worked on an completed in and rolling.... (recommend finishing Tia and things of the like that people want to see.. Guild Halls all the goodies..) Pwipe with the advertised new features and watch the people flock... I know that people don't want to loose the work they have put for the last few years.. but if they truly enjoy the mud and all it has to offer they will not leave. This is a community of people that get along for good or bad better or worse.. or whatever wanna call it. I believe if you use this aspect to pwipe it will come back strong.. who knows you might even get back the evil population that dropped of the face of the earth.

Last item I would like to say... As far as the devision between the races. I think unless you are going to have a PK aspect to a mud...there is no reason to devide them. But I do however think that alignment restrictions should be implemented... Kinda use something like the old outlaw code.

Again I would hate to see all my work gone.. but i think that a pwipe would help the mud if done in this way.
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Postby sotana » Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:13 am

One of the arguments I've heard FOR pwipe is that it would level the playing field. Seems to me that a pwipe would NOT level the playing field but would instead make the real newbies have to compete with the old-timers cleverly disguised as newbies for all that good ol' lowbie xp smiting and eq (and there's really no question as to who would win that competition). You can take away all the high-end eq and that 3000% xp but that won't make a newbie out of anybody who has been playing Toril long enuf to know the ins and outs. If I were a newbie (pretend for a moment that I'm not), I personally think that lack of knowledge and confidence in my mudding savvy would lead me to not stick around long enuf for the pseudo-newbies to move into higher levels and out of competition with me for low-level resources.

*shrug* having said all that, I've never been thru a pwipe so this is, of course, mere speculation on my part :P
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Postby Areandon » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:30 am

I'm not neccesarily against a Pwipe. But there has to be a good reason for it. I think a pwipe is only wise when:

1) There is a significant increase in functionality after a pwipe, such as Tiamat, player houses, guild halls, spell/melee balancing, some new zones.
2) Eq needs to be rebalanced in such a way that there is a clear classification in eq, from newbie to elite. This can't be done without a pwipe because it would devastate people's eq-sets.
3) We should have a marketing campaign in place leading up to the pwipe.
4) Website, help-files, new newbie tutorial/zone need to be fixed before pwipe.

Most of these things should be done on a test-server so when people lose their hard-earned eq and xp, they gain a lot of new options.

This basically would mean we'd go to Torlmud III. Make sure to make the downtime between II and III minimal though. If it lasts longer then a few days you will start losing people.

All and all I'd say if you want to pwipe you better make sure you give something very cool in return.
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Postby rylan » Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:46 pm

If it actually got to this point, I'd much much rather see an eq wipe (or partial eq, don't nuke the low level stuff) instead of a pwipe.
I don't think I'd want to go through leveling a cleric back to 50 and maxxing out my skills.
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Postby Pril » Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:06 pm

there is no real point for a pwipe.

first of all the exp for some people is a joke. i remember 1 wipe when touk got to 40 within 3 days and 5 within the week. really it would be devastating to the chanters/clerics the most due to their exp tables.

an eq wipe is an idea but again some people put a lot of time into getting their eq sets.

and finally there's no reason people should think there is nothing to do. they can RP they can customize their eq by getting it renamed.

possibly to a pwipe right after ya put tia or something but as for now there's no need for a wipe.
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Postby Grizz » Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:29 pm

I don't know why but I get all tingly in my happy spot when we talk about a pwipe.

I know that a lot of people would be upset because they put a lot of time and effort into creating their persona and such. I look at it like this though, the game is like a series of novels where a pwipe is the seperation between books. You have lived this book for a long long time, it is time to end and go on to the next book. You might say that some characters span across many books in a series well, you can always recreate the same character. Put any twist on the story you imagination desires.

Some of us look fondly back on the earlier books and have great memories of them, I know I do, but the next book is ready to be written/read.

I would support a pwipe but there would need to be some things done.

First the downtime for a pwipe would have to be very short else you lose your player base completely to other things. Some of them might discover that there is an Outside or a world away from their computers.

Next, there should be some changes involved in the world. Move zones, create new races/classes, implement global changes such as weather or languages or tradeskills. This will keep things from stagnating. You have to keep the players interested. If they come back to the same thing after a pwipe they wouldn't see the game as an adventure but a daunting task ahead of them.

It would be nice to have more events like an invasion of WD or something of the like.

The pwipe has to be more than just starting everyone over from square one. It has to be worth it for them to want to come back.
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:33 pm

Hrmmm. That's a difficult choice, for me. I can see the reasoning behind a pwipe, and yes, I believe the pbase would increase significantly for a time directly afterwards, but it would have its down side, too. The same players that excelled right after the last pwipe would excel after a new pwipe, because they're the ones with all the knowledge of the game. The same players would be monopolizing rares and screwing over everybody around them in order to make themselves first, first, first. The newer players would still tire of that before long, and eventually we'd be in the same boat we're in now. Sure, a pwipe would increase the pbase, but you're talking about a short-term fix which would have to be repeated again and again with diminished gains each time.

Now, my own outlook on how a pwipe would affect me... If there were a pwipe, I might re-roll my character and putz around a little doing some solo exp, but I doubt I ever come back to playing full-time again. Trying to level and equip a character takes time and effort, which I simply don't have enough of to invest into a game anymore. Since I won't be leveling a zonable character, I doubt I'd expect Imphras to have room for me in the guild, and would probably decline any offered guild spot, because I know how little I would be able to offer, and without access to the friends I care the most about in this textual world, it's a good bet that I'd just fade out of the picture.

So actually, a pwipe would probably be really good for me.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:38 pm

I agree with Ashiwi ... I doubt I'd come back full time after a wipe ... thats one of the reasosn i dont play duris to be honest ...
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Postby Sarell » Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:06 pm

I think at the moment with a fairly low player base we all have a boring enough time leveling up in DS just so we can put a group of core classes together to zone a bit. If you delete all our characters it would make this much harder, we really don't wan't the tedium of exp, the race is fun a few times, but really I'd much prefer to log on and smite a zone. Atm our guild is working very hard to foster and encourage some new talent and players, a pwipe for me would have the opposite effect, quick clique so can zone again asap.

If the trophy / exp system was drastically revamped (downgrade exp tables, upgrade trophy, remove exp from !kills) it would make levelling up a bit more interesting, however doing this without a wipe would pull us out of DS which would also make general mudding more interesting.

Losing all our gear and exp wouldn't be fun for me. My characters and equipment provide a base by which I can log on, try out some ninja tricks, or form a cornerstone of a group and add whoever after that. Levelling up to this stage again might be fun on the first character during the race, the others would be horrifying.

I don't think it would foster new players joining the mud at all. I know when I started it was when people had great power and it was kinda cool to get help with CRs from them and maybe a few little hand-downs to help me out. WOW got given a shield I can actually bash with! Working together to level up can be kinda fun aswell, however it is very easy to get left behind.
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Postby Branthur » Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:57 pm

Mostly in agreement with both Nilan and Ashiwi here. While if there was a pwipe I might create a character and putter a bit while I'm at work, I certainly wouldn't be back. I don't have the time, energy, nor patience to level up Branthur again. After the old Toril went down, I stopped mudding altogether, and only came back when I heard that there wasn't going to be another wipe. ever.

I enjoy the people here, I enjoy the setting. But thinking that all of the work that I've done leveling, gathering eq, creating a character, developing skills would just go away? I wouldn't be back.

A pwipe does nothing. We would lose more players than we would gain in the end. There might be a few people that aren't playing now that would come back...but do you honestly think that any of them would stay? Mostly these people would just get bored and leave again, and in the meantime you've lost those who played before but aren't coming back. The "playing field" would be even for about 10 days, tops. The loss of equipment would hurt true newbies, while the vets would need to gather what they could and would need after 2 weeks of xp to start hitting the zones again. Newbies lose, and all else stays the same.

An eqwipe would be better, as we wouldn't have to spend mind-numbing hours doing xp, and skills practice, etc, but again nothing would change. What we need isn't a pwipe. Put in Tia. Finish zones, add new zones. Add new features. Guildhalls. etc, etc, etc. What attracts players is balance, playability, and bells and whistles. They don't log on and say "Oh, nobody is above level 15. This must be a great place to play."
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Postby Eshacin » Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:41 pm

I think I'd probably stop playing, because I couldn't spare the time to level a character quickly and would get bored being stuck with just a low-level char. Plus now I'm in spitting distance of 50 for the first time, I'd be a little disheartened :)

Wouldn't it serve the same purpose long-term if:

- characters aged and died
- eq wore out
- high level eq could not be worn/used by low-level chars

This would give players time to level up an alt before their main died and put all low-level players on a more even footing.
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Postby selerial » Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:48 pm

I think that a pwipe would be useful in cases where it is absolutely necessary. An example of this: restructuring the classes. Removing monks, removing mercs, splitting sorcerers into vokers and chanters, altering certain race/class combos (removing dorf/barbie conj, adding dorf bards). That was a reasonable wipe because there was quite a bit new to explore afterwards.

Then there were the wipes that weren't so fun, such as when Soj2 closed because Lloth and Mystra were tired of the drama, or whatever the message said... That pwipe was good too though, I'd been a mud junkie for a while, and the day the mud closed I finally landed a job... it was a strange sort of concordance. Anyways.

To address one issue specifically, I think this mud is somewhat difficult for the "newbie" player to get in to. Most muds are twitchy, spells are cast instantly, you have a mana pool, mobs can be killed in less than half an hour of sustained melee. =+P This mud has a slower pace, and it's designed with grouping in mind. But there are usually 30 people on if you do a "who 45-50" and about 10 people on if you do a "who 1-44". What does this mean? We're not very absorbant when it comes to getting new players. Even when there were 1-200 players, sometimes I'd still sit around WD bored, because no group needed a monk, and monks without spanky eq couldn't solo well. The point of my rambling? In theory, I think it's possible that we could build a larger, stronger player base, if there were more low levels to group with for the new players. But in the absence of a good advertising campaign or some other means of getting a decent influx of newbies around the time of the wipe, I can see that we'd end up as we are now, with most of the mud top-heavy in levels and not so much for a lowbie to do.

Apologies if that was too much air-headed incoherence, hopefully you'll be able to find the points I was trying to make in there.
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Postby Treladian » Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:34 pm

I echo what many have said about not having the time to go through all the exp again. As much as I enjoyed the early days of zoning when Soj3 was still new (all melee zoning, woohoo!) and as much as I've grown attached to my character, going through the exp grind a 4th time in the same game isn't something I'd enjoy doing. For one, I'd like to actually graduate college and get my CS degree. For another, there are other games and other hobbies competing for my attention. Going through something I've already done in middle school, high school, and again in college doesn't exactly scream out to me.

The key though is that this is all looking from the perspective of going through the SAME thing again. Quite simply, some classes haven't really changed much from back when I started playing in Soj1. Likewise, we exchanged monks for overpowered spell damage in Soj2 and have yet to fix that problem. If it weren't for my guildmates and other folks I got to hang out with and zone with during the earlier days of Soj3, it would have just felt the exact same as Soj2 to me. A big part of the reason I came back when Sojourn 3 was announced was that as someone with an interest in game design and hoping to one day make a career out of it, I thought it would be a good opportunity to watch development in action and also mold the game a bit. This of course led to a few essays when Miax was looking for feedback on rangers, ranged combat, and other things, some of which actually were implemented. However, by and large it still feels like the same game I was playing in high school. If the game doesn't move forward enough, then the players will during a pwipe.

Bottom line is that if there's a pwipe, there better be a damn good reason for it. And there better be a damn lot more testing of those reasons to make sure that problems actually get fixed this time, not just turned into new ones. A pwipe in hopes of refreshing the player base will more likely add to the pbases of other games.
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Postby Crumar » Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:34 pm

Well I have read most of the posts above, some for some against a pwipe and some undecided. If you want to learn what happens when a pwipe occurs you only have to look back into the history of Toril/Sojourn to determine what occurs to the player base over time.

I have never played during the time of Toril and Sojourn one (S1) but I have heard that around that time there was a player base of about 300-500 players at peak hours. When S1 was wiped and S2 came out you had a average of 200-300+ players at any given time. Near the end of S2 right before it shut down we had an average of about 150 players logging on because people were getting tired of some of the immortals, and the immortals were getting tired of all the players. I still remember the day right before S2 closed what occurred with two of the forgers, the real story not the one people keep throwing around to lead the S2 down its eventually shut down. I lost a lot of friends the day S2 shut down, and you know what? That hurt more than any loss of eq or levels could ever hurt. When S3 finally resurfaced after a long wait, people like Kajib, Yayaril, Varia, Mplor, Sylvos (list can go on and on) became part-time players who helped reestablish the mud. Yeah they logged on at first, even leveled up to 40's, with Yayaril leveling three alts to 50 but eventually they left not because the mud got boring, but because it was time for them personally to go due to real life issues, or code related issues not being resolved by the S3 staff. Now Toril 2 is up and running and we had a drastic eq change that sort of caused a semi player wipe. If you had done the eq fixes, fixed melee and some of the classes and then had a player wipe these same people would have left anyway.

That’s the point some people don’t get when they ask for a pwipe. Its not because the player get bored of the mud, there is always something to do on here. Its because their personal life dictated that they move on elsewhere. I know if there was a pwipe I would personally take a step back and take a look at all the time and effort I put into developing my character on here, and then ask myself is it worth doing it all over again, knowing that there might be another player wipe down the road. I came back because Miax said there would be no player wipe ever. I know the mud is under new management but still people like Ashiwi, Branthur, a few others up on the list have already stated that they are here mainly because they are already established and can log on to help from time to time. It is their personal life that dictates this not what is done on the mud. When you wipe you will lose part time players and hardcore players like Lilithelle, Larem, myself will most likely become part-time players.

I have a feeling I know why this is being discussed. If you want to re-balance melee and downgrade some of the other spell casting classes, fix and put in zones like Tiamat zonelet and re-balance other eq issues, people will figure out eventually what was done. They will just leave anyway if they don’t like what they see in regards to their class getting nerfed or eq downgraded further. Again I am just speculating as to the reasoning behind this discussion but regardless I can understand where the staff is coming from when making this discussion.

All I am saying is take a look at the history of this mud and the player base every time a player wipe occurred and you will get your answer as to what will happen if you institute this change. A promise was made by a retired staff member a long time ago and that is the reason why half the old players came back. Unless there is some major code issue that has corrupted player files and cannot be fixed then a player wipe is the only way to go after you make sure its fixed. But in the end no matter what you say to try to ease the transition to a player wipe you will lose half your player base again and eventually the mud will most likely not survive. Sorry for the long post but this is a issue that strikes at the heart of all of us.
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Postby Shar » Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:52 pm

The reasoning behind this discussion is:

A lot of the gods got together IRL last month to have fun (which we SOOOOOOO DID) and naturally, we talked a lot about mud issues. In fact, it was virtually all any of us talked about. We talked about past versions of this mud, future visions of this mud (from all our own perspectives,) and the ins and outs of why we feel we have an all around better mud yet fewer players. Of course, pwipe was mentioned. It had been a major thing in all past forms of the mud we love so much. Some gods thought pwipe did good for us, some gods thought pwipe did bad for us. Because each of the gods gathered had a different view on how pwipe affected the mud, I was elected to post a thread on the subject to gather what you guys all thought. Thats it all there is behind it. :)

...hope that helps clarify the "why" of this discussion. We really *really* aren't planning a pwipe. *ALL* we are doing with this discussion is gathering info on what really happens to the people behind the character when their characters get wiped out.
Last edited by Shar on Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Grizz » Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:52 pm

You must also factor in that assessment of the declining numbers in the playerbase the fact that EverQuest was released and now a whole bunch of EQ clones as well. Many folk left to play those games, not just because there was a pwipe. You are right however that there is a natural progression of the game where players eventually grow to the point in their lives where they now have more responsibility in job, spouse, kids. They then become part time players and then are just gone for a long time. A pwipe tends to facilitate that a bit more. It is a good breaking point for some people. Kind of like starting a diet on New Years.
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Postby Wuk » Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:52 am

IMO I dont think a Pwipe would change anything.
It will be very similar to how it is now in 6 months or less.
The players who have hordes of EQ and have multiple LVL 50's
are going to be back there in that time frame.
It isnt going to change what people know about the MUD.
Just a minor penalty to those who continue to play after a wipe.
as far as helping pbase, I dont see a whole lot of growth for a text based game. Ive tried to get people to play and well, 99% say "why would I play that when I can play a 3D game." if you havent grown up with Sojourn/Toril and other MUDs, I dont think it as appealing to new people.
Take a poll, most of the people I talk to arent in High School or younger like it was when I started playing years ago. Im 27 now and if I wasnt a fan/follower of This MUD since H.S. I wouldnt be here now. But as it is I love this MUD and the people behind it and the people who play it.
So im here. well just my 2cents about that.
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Postby rarlaj » Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:57 am

being addicted to this mud and all...

a pwipe would be just the thing i need to kick the habit...

pwipe = sad rarlaj
pwipe = yahoo pool or ack reading a book
pwipe = more time for porn
pwipe = corpral tunnel and i will sue you all for hurting my wrist.... (along with larry flint and hugh heffner_
pwipe = happy wife


i would not be back after a pwipe... i worked hard to level up rarlaj and am on the verge of getting a ressing cleric...

Rarlaj
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power corrupts
study hard
be evil!
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Postby Ashod » Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:15 am

I am not sure how to address this... but i have read the posts above.. and many points are valid. One of the main concerns is the fact that if a pwipe was to happen. Things would flow alot the same as they have this wipe I agree. Many would level up.. get great sets of eq and drop off the face of Faerun...or bother sarell with endless afk sessions.

I do however know that there are text based muds out there that have 300-500 peek times. What is it that they do to keep players? I think reguardless of weather we have a wipe or not, If we want to have a striving mud we must learn and take from some of these muds in relation to keep players intrested. One of the main things that kills it for many players is the fact that they max out and get bored, or they find exp to be very consuming and borring and loose intrest in this mud.

A suggestion is to possibly have a deep investigation in the ideas and work of other muds that survive strongly and adapt them into this world.
Even if this means lots of work to change mud structure and play. I do however understand that gods do work for free here. And alot of man hours go into the already unseen workings of the world. But if we want things to change, I believe that we have to change aswell. It is all good and great that toril is a great base mud but with the times come changes.

I am not suggesting stealing other mud ideas, but research and form ideas from those muds that captivate there players bases. Other wise we will find a demise in the mud we are trying to have.
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Postby Gyrx » Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:57 am

Shev, would you spend $2 in gas money to return $0.50 worth of cans?

Just like many others said, you need a really good god damn reason to waste 2 bucks in gas (pwipe/eqwipe) to return 50 cents in cans (massive changes that'll make the $1.50 lose worth it).
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Postby Dalar » Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:09 pm

For this MUD, a pwipe will generally kill it. Look at a who list at any given time and notice that more than half of these people aren't alts or people who have spent tons of time building up their sets for the past couple of years. It appears the veterans wouldn't want a wipe. I don't think I would either because I would have to do all those bottleneck rares. I wouldn't mind the exp much if lvl 45-50 wasn't so long.

As for "leveling the playing field" argument... this makes me laugh. The people who know the game will be exping so fast that the newbies will probably not be able to catch up. The general who list will be the same with people like Inama and Pava at 50 all over again and with the lowbies still low. You think exping is easier when the high level/experienced players are on the same level as you? Think again. They'll be with their friends competiting with the same exp as you while you're in a different group.

If you're one of those people who want a pwipe to just feel that feeling, go start a new character and level again. There have been many lowbies since Scardale has opened up (good job imms).

If you're one of those people who want the even playing field, read above and also realize that after 3 years, there are some people who play everyday and still don't have the 'perfect' set.

If you're one of those people who want to see the MUD die from a pwipe, go to hell or get a life.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Mitharx » Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:22 pm

My 2 cents:

I'd probably come back if there was a pwipe. I love this mud and the people and would like to chat with guildees (assuming they'd take me back:P). Much like Crumar said above, I'd probably just be a part time player that logged on to chat or mess around from time to time and be a newbie helper. I know many other people I have talked to who feel the same way.

Like Dalar, I don't understand the level the playing field argument. It's not a group of people being 50 and others not being 50 that's causing the problem so much as experience vs. non-experience (playing the game, not gaining xp for levels).

If there was a way to prove that we could gain more than we'd lose by pwiping then I might actually support it and just play less, but I'm not sure there is a reason to believe that that's the case. Is there?
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Postby amolol » Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:16 pm

a pwipe would hurt the mud more than do good at this point... ithink alot of the better players would leave elitests and non elitests alike... i wouldnt leave but not many care weather i stay or leave

pwiping wouldnt balance a thing at the moment... we need to look at skills spells and eq.we lost players over eq downgrades... to take away an elitest's eq pile and all 13 or so of there power leveled chars with pretty bobbles on it would take away a significant chunk.. it would be better to compramise and wipe everyone to half of there total exp... so like myself at lvl 47 with 50% thats 4750 divided by 2 is 2350 for somone who had twice the xp for a lvl 50 would remain lvl 50... that would be better at this point but would still lose players... the other thing you could do is put level restrictions on items. sothat we dont see a lvl 3 warrior running around with a gythka. and yes i have seen that within the past week. level caps on eq items would work better than a /pwipe.

also a discussion on gcc not to long ago. daggers vs swords.... as sits daggers are doing the save or better in pure dice damage than swords.. a dagger at most will be a foot long. most arent over 9" a typical sword is about 2/3' against a dragon what do you think is more damaging a 12" dagger or a 3' sword?... my point made... either lower dice damage on daggers or up dice damage on swords both 1h and 2h swords . mebbe both... also... bring stats back on quivers make them ranger only.
that would solve a lot of the balancing problems for melee right there.
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Postby Gormal » Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:40 pm

I'm too tired anymore to deal with a 'new' game. Gimme the New Game+ option and we'll talk, otherwise I'd become a level 3 dwarf who logs into 1w from time to time.
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Postby Ensis » Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:27 pm

The game is pretty different now compared to when it opened. Lots of people have grandfathered items that became badass, lots of people had badass items that are now paperweights. With all the equipment changes and mob changes, it'd be interesting to see if all the changes actually succeed in spreading out the gear among the levels instead of having 1st level gear vs 50th level gear.

But I'd guess those with all the best gear/highest level chars would protest a pwipe, i dont foresee it happenin.
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:14 pm

Thanks for your feedback everyone, and just to reiterate what Shar said, we are definitely not planning a pwipe.
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Postby Jegzed » Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:52 pm

I don't play regularly anymore, not even frequently.. Today was the first time in 3 months that I had even logged on.

I still got all my chars I built up when I played hardcore, so I can come in and enjoy a fun evening of zoning if I fancy it.

If the mud ever wiped, I couldn't do that, and I doubt I'd play again...

However, i fear that if the mud ever wiped, I'd be part of the first month or so of racing cause that was way fun, but the period after being first group doing Jotunheim, Troll King and Cave City until everybody has a good set of eq is just boring.
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
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Postby Selzan » Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:18 pm

Personally, a pwipe would likely result in my retirement, as well as many of those whom I consider to be running mates. The fact of the matter is that the majority of this MUD is no longer in high school. Hell, most of us aren't in college (or even graduate school). When I started playing here 9-10 years ago, I was mostly playing with the same folks as I play with now -- back then, our only limitation was running out of caffeine; now we have job concerns, kids, and ... for the unlucky few ... (cough * corth * dolaf * cough) new wives to keep happy.

I'd love to say I'd play here fulltime if the MUD wiped, but in reality, it's just not the truth. I'm a full blown lawyer now, with a hellish schedule which often occupies much of my time. By some strange feat (most likely stupidity), I still manage to logon for a couple hours on most nights, but the all nighters and frenzied xp is basically over. Many others that I know are also in the same boat.

I think that the most important thing to remember about a pwipe is that it won't just cut some people down from active to semi-retired ... but it will eliminate the prospect of allowing the semi-retired to still zone when they a) have the inclination, or b) get some free time. Eliminating those people would be pretty disheartening and, at least my opinion, would be a real shame to the MUD's community.

Just a few cents from the grumpy paladin ...
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Postby Mplor » Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:11 am

In my experience, the players who benefit most from a pwipe are the younger players who attained high levels and started zoning relatively recently. They enjoy the dual advantages that they are still excited about the game and obviously have time to devote to it.

In addition, these players may see the pwipe as a chance to break into the top ranks of players, a task normally made difficult by the somewhat calcified social strata of an established MUD. And they often succeed. In fact, the post-wipe "elite" may be led by a few die-hard oldtimers but it's mostly comprised of this new blood.

On the other hand, the pre-wipe "elite" tend to get hit pretty hard by a pwipe. It's true that they form the core of the early post-wipe "elite" and tend to enjoy the post-wipe race to the top. However, they have a startlingly high attrition rate between 3 and 12 months after a pwipe.

I suspect this is partly because they had already "beaten" the game part of the MUD pre-wipe, and were playing mostly because of friends. The pwipe gives these players a new gaming challege, but once they hit the top echelon of the MUD again, they find that many of their pre-wipe friends fell out along the way and things aren't quite the same as they were. Some adjust, some don't.

I can't really speak for newbies since I didn't experience a pwipe as a newbie.

As for me, I got into EQ after Soj2 closed. I would have eventually stopped MUDding, just like I stopped playing EQ after a couple of years, but I'd have probably spent those years on Sojourn if it hadn't pwiped.

Mippy
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Postby Sservis » Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:13 am

As far as I can tell the reasons that make a pwipe successful are game mechanic based. I can think of a few good reasons to pwipe (I'll get into them later). However, none of them are based around pushing a reset switch. If a pwipe, and the associated turnover, is good for toril/sojourn, then that toril/sojourn should have a pwipe policy, and pwipe every so often, not just once.

What does a pwipe achieve?

It resets the game and all earned credits by the players to 0. This in the long run does nothing to help gameplay, I can't tell if the pbase effects are positive or negative, overall I consider it a likely wash in the long term. it would produce a changing of the guard, but would the new guard be any different than the old guard? very unlikely, as the structure of the game would still be the same.

What do you need a pwipe to do?

Some see a pwipe as an opportunity to introduce broad scale changes with minimal complaints. Here's a list of things I think that would help sojourn, that would traditionally be done at a pwipe or never. I'm also going to comment on why sojourn policy makes these things seem to not require a pwipe.

1) remove artifacts

stripping a player of items that are bad for the game often incurs negative feelings. a pwipe does the stripping without complaints. However toril/sojourn went through a set of eq changes just as devastating to people's items. I see no reason why the artifact couldn't be traded for an in game item with the same number of points [and a relatively similar stat profile].

2) point based character generation

this has a lot of advantages (bandwidth, no need to roll a long time, balanced for the impatient vs the patient), however it would induce a significant change on the game (I doubt that 4 perfect warriors would be possible, but with the current roller they are). This kind of change is hard to implement without a pwipe as there are issues of established vs new player power (what would happen to the stats of my two 4 perfect warriors? I doubt the point buy system would allow them.)

However toril/sojourn did have a change to the roller without a pwipe and without redress to characters rolled with the now subpar roller. A number of characters decided that rerolling and rexping was a good option given the availability of better stats.

edit:
I know that I use a lot of bandwidth [I estimate around 50-75 MB/mo, and that's with compression [it's 2-3 gigs if I wasn't compressed]], and have made occasional donations to cover my "share" of the costs, but maybe not everyone has. Any imms want to comment on how much a random roller is costing the mud/mo? [point buy option wouldn't do much to cut use as those that roll for stats would likely still roll, and that's the bulk of the bandwidth] Is not using a point based character generation process worth the ongoing cost? imo, the only fair way to implement a point buy is to require ALL characters to reset their stats to point buy limitations [otherwise there are artifact stat issues, and this is a bigger issue than artifact items] This admittedly would best be done with a pwipe, but it would be possible without one.

3) evil pbase

The evil pbase has declined to a point where zoning, especially high end zoning is rare to nonexistant. Shev has gone on the record that there will be no fix to the issue. The characters are basically sunk cost. While this is painful, I tend to agree that full grouping would cause other issues [why be a human lich when you could be drow or yuan? among others (see the troll warrior threads for what people are afraid might happen [personally there are at least 2 races (yuan/gnome with duergar, grey, barb, dwarf being close) that are better tanks in general use, [outside of spob])].

A pwipe would provide an opportunity to redress the fact that evil race characters are basically sunk cost these days. This is really the only reason I can come up with that requires a pwipe [given Shev's statements]. The others all have had similar things done without a pwipe [so why not again sans pwipe?]. Frankly, there are a number of ways this could also be addressed without a pwipe, but I consider it very unlikely to happen. Shev/Shar me a message in game sometime if you want my thoughts on this.

Personally? I'd be gone post pwipe, but what does one evil race player whose characters are already pointless for zoning matter?
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Gura ASSOC:: 'but im so good at it'
Gura ASSOC:: 'especially when im right'

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Postby Jhorr » Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:43 am

To answer Shar's question, 'what happens to the person behind the character when a pwipe comes'. I think most of us step back, take a deep breath, reflect on the time we spent playing the game, and ask ourselves is it worth going through it all again?

Based on the history, about half of us say 'yes' and half say 'no'. Hence, attrition. The social dynamics of who is left is largely unchanged, as Dalar pointed out.

A point about breaking into the 'elite'. A pwipe won't help a clueless player somehow be an elite player. These days elite mostly just means not AFK during zones. The active guilds are always looking for motivated and careful players. Heck, we even guilded Larem!

Seriously though, for whatever it's worth, I think the MUD is a better place without a pwipe. Our challenge these days is maintaining AND expanding our pbase. I just don't think newbie players are even aware of what a pwipe means, so they're not rummaging around every MUD looking for one that just reset. Instead, they look for features, theme, and longevity which would indicate a stable community.
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Postby Iaiken Toransier » Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:01 pm

If the mud Pwiped, I'd probably be back to play casually again. (So, for a few of the gods I guess that would qualify as a reason not to.)

I figure I'd play a neutral human chanter to start, or maybe an elementalist. I doubt I would join the race for 50, I just don't have that kind of time to dedicate to the game anymore.

Being grown up sucks btw... but it does have it's advantages.
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Postby Birile » Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:17 pm

My initial thought was that a pwipe wouldn't be such a bad idea for the life of this MUD, but I think I am not so sure that's true now that I think about it more. And here are some of the reasons why.

As several have said, most of the players here are growing up and our non-MUD lives are taking up increasingly more and more of our time. Though we would love to spend more time on Toril we just can't. I am always happy when I hear someone retired because I know that "real life" (RL) has grown more powerful in their lives than this MUD. That's a good thing. I personally started playing this MUD when I was unemployed several years ago and spent hour upon hour upon hour every day trying to level up and become zoneable--even though it took almost a year for me to do. I just don't have that luxury anymore, what with the fact that I have a fulltime job now (with mandatory overtime), my daughter is getting older, I have a social life (go me :lol: ), etc. And yet I'm clinging desperately to something (Toril) that my RL just does not want me to have time for. Why? 'Cause I don't have the heart or the courage to let it go without some outside force saying "okay, enough is enough, time to go." I fully admit it's a weakness. A pwipe (or *gasp* total shut-down) would be just the right nudge. Is that a bad thing? Hmm...

Longtimers are still here because their characters are established and they can still zone without putting in those insane hours exping with newbie eq that they put in several years ago. Toril is a way to relax for many of us now. Exping in Splitshield vintage yellow leather (though fashionable) is not relaxing! A pwipe would require much more of a time commitment than many of us can or are willing to make.

One of the only other things that's keeping this MUD alive (I saw the current players online at 82 the other night and was surprised it was so high) is the fact that many of us have alts. Some may think multiple alts are a bad thing (okay, so we don't all need a rogue, but whoever made khanjari what it is today is to blame for that bullsh*t) but there are times even now when getting a zoneable group together is difficult to impossible. Imagine what it would be like after a pwipe when everyone has exactly 1 zoneable character. Try to find an enchanter/cleric THEN. Heh. Make it even more difficult to form zone groups and there's even less reason to play this game.

Long and the short of it is this--if you want to keep Toril alive and thriving, make the changes players have been clamoring for for years. If you want it to die slowly, don't pwipe and keep things the way they are (ie. slow/small/insignificant changes here and there). Wanna just kill off Toril and probably increase the overall value of several of us oldtimers? Pwipe.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:06 am

Ahxeriden Aethorcyn wrote:I think its an awesome idea. I think the pbase would rocket up, because of the even playing field. I think bitching would go down.

I wouldn't wanna make a habit of it, like pwiping every year, but I think right now it would totally rock. :D :D :D


I think i have found my new polar opposite. You ninny. i have been here
for at LEAST 3 pwipes. None of which were taken very well by the players.
There was little benefit if any, and it was all moot because of all of the
bitching and whining that the people did afterwards. mind you it did calm
down after about 6 or so months, but it NEVER helped the playerbase.

Would i come back if this mud wiped? probbably slightly less than i do
even now, which isn't often. Basically i've grown bored. Done almost
all there is to do, and doing it all over again from level 1 wouldn't change
the experience any for me. If i wanted to do it all over again, i'd roll a
new char and not tell anyone who i was. I am tired of a lot of the
promises that were made early on after the last split not being kept. I
kept the faith for quite some time. And i have now seen that the promises
didn't come with a solid timeline. This has allowed things to take AGES
to get implimented. Even the smallest of change seems to take forever.

The ONLY time i would see a pwipe here justified is IF balance was ever
reached. Then would be a good time to start again.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:09 am

Grizz wrote:I don't know why but I get all tingly in my happy spot when we talk about a pwipe.

I know that a lot of people would be upset because they put a lot of time and effort into creating their persona and such. I look at it like this though, the game is like a series of novels where a pwipe is the seperation between books. You have lived this book for a long long time, it is time to end and go on to the next book. You might say that some characters span across many books in a series well, you can always recreate the same character. Put any twist on the story you imagination desires.

Some of us look fondly back on the earlier books and have great memories of them, I know I do, but the next book is ready to be written/read.

I would support a pwipe but there would need to be some things done.

First the downtime for a pwipe would have to be very short else you lose your player base completely to other things. Some of them might discover that there is an Outside or a world away from their computers.

Next, there should be some changes involved in the world. Move zones, create new races/classes, implement global changes such as weather or languages or tradeskills. This will keep things from stagnating. You have to keep the players interested. If they come back to the same thing after a pwipe they wouldn't see the game as an adventure but a daunting task ahead of them.

It would be nice to have more events like an invasion of WD or something of the like.

The pwipe has to be more than just starting everyone over from square one. It has to be worth it for them to want to come back.


If you look at it in the grand scope of things, why not just be playing a
different or perhaps a bastardized version of this mud/code at that point?
I think the fact that you haven't been here anywhere near as long as
some of these players leads me to believe that you would like to see
a wipe to level the playing field for you. Greed is a powerful motivator.
Then again, i can't say i've ever agreed with you on anything, so why
should this be any different? And as far as your Everquest being an issue
as to why people leave sojourn, this has only been a problem in the last
5 years. the pbase has been declining since long before then. sojourn
has been around for 10+ years now.
Waelos
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Not Good

Postby Waelos » Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:49 am

Hello.

I'd have to say that a pwipe would eliminate 75-90% of the active members of the "older" guilds (say, Imphras and Scions/Elders/DSR(wow!). 50-75% of the mature guilds (Northern Star / Shades of Twilight/etc) and about 25% of the newer guilds (sorry I don't list y'all here and I dont mean to offend with any labels).

Anyway. . .the height of Mudding as a hobby happened in the Early to Mid 90's . .. and the pbas has been decreasing ever since. Thankfully, there have been hard core mudders who've stayed loyal and dedicated to Sojourn as a whole from then until today. Each year more and more of us head off into 'the real world', which exacts its toll in casualties from the mud. Some never come back. Some of us are lucky enough to have jobs and families that are forgiving enough to grant us a few hours a night, ,or on a weekend to come back on and mud/zone/whatever. Most of us don't have the time to dedicate to the game as we have in the past, as we've already put in 10 or more years worth.

I'll tell you the only reason I've kept playing was because we were promised there would never be a playerwipe again. I did not want to dedicate my time to acquiring the items/level/skills/identity for my character if I knew that eventually they would all be for naught.

Because mudding as a hobby is decreasing, the game increasingly relies on the 'die hard' fan. Without them saying damn this is cool, and giving other (fewer) players something fun to look at, look forward to, the few players that do come to a mud to try it out get bored and move on. Seeing Lilithelle standing there with an eyefull of badass ansi toys gives purpose to getting killed over and over again by a sparrow in hopes that someday you'll get that stuff too. a bunch of people sitting around dying to sprites is just boring. The new players dont see the possible top and move on. Eventually you'll get elite players again but you've already lost not only your old players, but many new ones too.

In my opinion, the mud can't afford to lose a single player. Pwiping would cause a boatload of attrition. I've been through two splits, and um. . .4 pwipes. . .I can't go through another one. I have too much to do in real life to dedicate persuing my character again. In fact, I almost didn't come back this time. I couldn't bring back Waelos. . because I thought that he, as a character, did not deserve to be anything less than the badass he was at the height of his career on S2. So I rolled up his half sister (Weylarii) just in case she sucked I wouldn't have to tarnish his memory.

As it turns out, Weylarii is pretty damn cool (if i say so myself) and I'm very happy with the way she turned out. But this is the very last time I can dedicate myself to this game. nearly 12 years and alot of rangering later, I'd have to call it quits.

So, in all I'd have to say that a Pwipe would cripple the mud over all, and certainly bring to a sad end one of my life's more fun passtimes. I don't want that to happen.

Thanks

The Lost
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:50 am

Delmair Aamoren wrote:
Ahxeriden Aethorcyn wrote:I think its an awesome idea. I think the pbase would rocket up, because of the even playing field. I think bitching would go down.

I wouldn't wanna make a habit of it, like pwiping every year, but I think right now it would totally rock. :D :D :D


I think i have found my new polar opposite. You ninny. i have been here
for at LEAST 3 pwipes. None of which were taken very well by the players.
There was little benefit if any, and it was all moot because of all of the
bitching and whining that the people did afterwards. mind you it did calm
down after about 6 or so months, but it NEVER helped the playerbase.

Would i come back if this mud wiped? probbably slightly less than i do
even now, which isn't often. Basically i've grown bored. Done almost
all there is to do, and doing it all over again from level 1 wouldn't change
the experience any for me. If i wanted to do it all over again, i'd roll a
new char and not tell anyone who i was. I am tired of a lot of the
promises that were made early on after the last split not being kept. I
kept the faith for quite some time. And i have now seen that the promises
didn't come with a solid timeline. This has allowed things to take AGES
to get implimented. Even the smallest of change seems to take forever.

The ONLY time i would see a pwipe here justified is IF balance was ever
reached. Then would be a good time to start again.


Okay, let's be rational here. We have hard data that lots of people will leave if a pwipe occurs. We have no hard data that lots more people than that will join. True, we have the enthusiasm of new players for a pwipe, but the real question is, how many new players can we get? Will it be enough to revitalize Sojourn/Toril? (And no less than hundreds of new players would be needed to offset the many, many players who would leave.)

I am not optimistic enough to belive that the same players will be here for another fifty years. Our hope for the future has always been in new players, who will carry on the traditions, stories, and rich lore of Sojourn. But without adequate exposure, and an effective means of "hooking" them, it would be folly to do anything drastic like pwipe.

Put another way: How many people would come due to a pwipe as opposed to the number that would leave? I don't think there are all that many people who know of Soj and say, "gee, I'd want to get in on that, but I'll wait for them to pwipe for a level field." The majority will either decide the game isn't for them, or will play regardless of the presence or absence of pwipe.

Even if you had twice the number of newbies to replace the number of veterans lost, there's no guarantee the newbies would really stick with it. Let's face it - killing sedawi, ants, or zombies over and over appears to be a thankless job at times. It isn't made any easier by seeing other players with awesome equipment breeze through what you struggled for an hour to kill. But at the same time, we dare not give newbies that kind of equipment, because they won't learn the skills they learn in those hours of grim struggle. The development of a skillset corresponding to a player class requires dedication, and it involves attrition. I would say that even with the newer, far kinder Toril, fewer than 1 in 10 newbies makes it all the way up to be a recognized master in their field, within 2 years. Fewer than 1 in 3 seem to make it up to actually zoning with any regularity. We would therefore need ten times the newbies as veterans we lost, just to break even, and in order to see any real improvement, we would probably want twenty times the players.

Yes, you can say that such logic isn't totally fair. But it its vital that Toril survive.
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Tasan
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Postby Tasan » Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:30 pm

We don't need "hard data" to tell us that for every 1 veteran you lose you are going to lose a player forever.

We don't need "hard data" to tell us that for every 5 people that come here to try this place, only 2 will probably stick with it for longer than a month.

You can see these things by people's attitudes and by the way things have always been. Pwipes give people a reason to quit, because everything they've "worked" for is gone. See the thread on reimbursement in the longer zones for the same reasoning. Time/effort has always been a huge factor in this game, and if you eliminate all the time and effort already put in, you are going to upset a lot of people.

Someone above mentioned places that can still draw 500+ players. Why aren't you playing there if player base is so important? Quality always destroys quantity in this situation. I've been to over 50 different places, and I always come back here. Quality zones, players and immortals are a good reason to stick around. There are problems, but there are problems on every mud. I've been to the places with 500+ players, and most of the time they are completely solo-based. This is and always presumably will be a group-based mud. The solo-based world creates opportunities for part-time and non-social people to advance to their own sort of elite. Group-based muds typically rely on comraderie and a sense of family to keep players and draw new ones. These aren't new concepts at all.

By pwiping at a group-based mud, you will do infinately more harm then at a solo-based mud. When you need 3 or 4 people to truly advance your station, it's going to take more time and coordination of playing time to get things done, as compared to being able to do things by yourself in your own time.

Another problem stems from lack of core classes. Again you find that if you lose players, those people that play core classes are again going to be lacking, and the group-based theme suffers from that. If you lose any amount of players, it will be that much harder to form groups, and it will be that much more frustrating to new and old players alike.

Right now, I can log on in whatever time I have and with one of my characters, I can fill a role in a group, regardless if I really want anything. That requires less time commitment and hassle on my part. Gaming for me isn't something I sit down and devote several hours to because I know I'm going to need those hours. I like to sit down when I have time, get something done quick perhaps and move on. This is the same thing echoed by a lot of the older crowd.

The main thing is, pwiping a group-based mud will almost require classes to be cut. If there were a pwipe, I would suggest going back to sorcerers among one of the first steps towards making the game at least palatable beyond a pwipe. Bringing more new/innovative/fixes to the table after the pwipe is another good way to appease the older generation. New is always good, and new and improved(wtf?!) is even better.

!!x
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Postby Rihesesassixiz » Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:04 pm

I'd like a pwipe if things like new races and classes were going to be added to the game. Or something...

Basically, I'd only like a pwipe if there were huge changes made to the MUD.
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Postby Zen » Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:06 pm

Overall I think a pwipe is a positive thing. Not only does it put everyone on equal grounds for a brief moment, but it makes everyone actually need other players again. It would put some challenge back into the game in a big way, and that would be welcome.

The unfortunate side of that is there are a lot of us, myself included, who have grown up and moved on IRL. I can no longer afford the time and effort I spent to get where I am, so for me a pwipe would entail a certain loss. I think a lot of players fall into that category, but the glory of level 50 doesn't seem to mean quite as much to me as it once did. If there was a pwipe, it might well mean that I have reached the pinnacle of my mud experience in terms of levels, equipment and ability.

While I don't know how that would sit with me, personally, I think a pwipe would be a good thing for the mud in general. There will be a lot of people who can't get back to where they were, and everyone has to decide if that's the most important thing.

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