Hey What's the Best Goodie Race for a Warrior, and Why?

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.

What race is best for tanking and why?

Barbarian, because..
8
24%
Dwarf, because..
12
36%
Gnome, because..
3
9%
Halfling, because..
2
6%
Human, because..
2
6%
Grey Elf, because..
6
18%
 
Total votes: 33
Sesexe
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Hey What's the Best Goodie Race for a Warrior, and Why?

Postby Sesexe » Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:37 pm

Dont just read this, or just vote, comment. Even if you don't play one, which races have you seen tank best? What's your honest opinion and two cents?

What are the possitives and negatives of your pick compared to others?
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:17 pm

Well I'm biased, because I'm a halfling but...here goes anyway.

I'm not gonna say halflings are the best warriors in the game, because of their lack of hps and strength its not possible. I will say why I like them though and compare them to some other races.

Their strength of course, is one of the worst in the game. Because of this I wear a pretty large amount of +maxstrength equipment. It will never equal a barbarians or dwarfs, without wearing so much +strength and +weight eq that it starts effecting my overall eq status in a negative way.
I think my strength is atleast an elfs. Oh and a belt of super density is a halflings best friend. If you got a good roll, it puts you at atleast an elfs weight, without hurting your agility or dexterity. Weight also effects what weapons you can wield.


Dexterity. Its the best in the game, I love it. Up to 4 attacks with a 2hander just gives me a boner. As far as I know, no other race can touch halfling dex, except maybe drow.

Agility. I think halflings agility is only 2nd to elves, not sure. I know its better than barbarians/dwarves/humans, which is really neat, and makes for many more dodges, and better rescues.

Constitution. No match for a barbs or dorfs, about the same as humans. Some say their hps are the exact same as a humans, some say they are slightly lower. I for one vote for about the same.

Overall if you wear the right gear and play it out right, halflings can make a worthy tank.
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Postby Crumar » Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:50 pm

I voted grey elf because they are by far the best tanks in game in regards to agility and dodging. The purpose of the tank is to take the punishment and be able to withstand multiple attacks while their spells go down until the chanter has time to put them back up again. The only race that I see that can survive on a regular basis when spells go down to high level mobs on mass like JOT/Musp invasion is elf and gnomes.

Dwarves and Barbarians hit the hardest and have the most hit points but are not well suited to dodge multiple mob attacks like the way elves are made. First comes AC, hit points, then finally hit/dmg when trying to make a powerful well balanced tank. Grey elves gain a agility bonus that can put them to about -150 ac with eq or spells. So you can see why they are the best to tank in most situations. Now having said that they do lack in HP's. My dwarf tank at level 50 has 687 naked. The elf I have at level 50 will have 430 naked. Hit and damage wise my dwarf will out perform my elf tank, but my elf tank gets a extra attack because of dexterity bonus they have. So it evens out in my opinion. So you can see basically if you want to choose the right tank to survive your best bet would be a elf and gnome is a close second followed by dwarf/barbarian tank. Hope this helps you.

Crumar.
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Postby Treladian » Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:01 pm

I'm going to have to go with gnome on this one. As much as a lot of the dwarves made fun of Hildippie, he really was a great tank.

First off, I'll start by saying that obviously gnome strength is abysmal. No one gives a damn aside from warriors that like to delude themselves into thinking they're still hitters. While a lot of warrior weapons have neat procs, the most useful ones are the status effect based ones, not the damage ones. Melee already isn't that great for the dedicated hitter classes so half-assing it by wearing shells on your warrior is going to just make a mob laugh while you tickle it. MULTIPLE warriors can do respectable melee damage, but the small amount of damage that comes from a higher strength score isn't going to be significant in that. The only time it does matter is when you have a weapon that has a useful proc that works off of critical hits, but there aren't any penalties to crit rate for strength below a human at 100 so gnome technically aren't penalized and the only one I can think of off the top of my head is gythka which is two handed and not really something you use while being main tank.

Gnomes have about the same dex as elves, which can mean an extra attack here and there, but that doesn't really mean much, aside from perhaps negating whatever disadvantage in terms of damage they get from strength.

Agility is where gnomes excel. Gnomes, along with trolls, have the second highest agility for a player race, second only to grey and drow elves. High agility means higher AC which means better damage reduction and higher agility also means less criticals get through. Less criticals means less randomness for the clerics to contend with and anything that makes things easier on the healers is a good thing. Neither barbarians nor mountain dwarves have a bonus to agility. Actually, I believe they both receive penalties to it.

Gnomes have human constitution. This means that they can slap on a piece of max_con gear, preferbly an amey belt, and get a quick 50 hp and even up the playing field with barbs and dwarves a little bit. This also means that they're 100 hp ahead of elves in the hp department, more than a worthwhile trade for a little less agility IMO.

Simply put, aside from halflings, all the other goodie demihuman races have some penalty to a stat that affects tanking. And halflings and humans don't have as much agility as gnomes. The one physical stat a gnome is penalized in doesn't affect tanking in a significant way. Those extra hp a dwarf or barbarian have can easily be taken away by a crit the gnome simply ignores and the right equipment can lessen that gap quickly. While I've seen Dopey's various cousins eat plenty of megacrits (or rather, be eaten by them), I don't think I've ever seen Hildippie get mauled out of the blue.
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Postby Crumar » Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:17 pm

Treladian wrote:Agility is where gnomes excel. Gnomes, along with trolls, have the second highest agility for a player race, second only to grey and drow elves.


You said it yourself elves have better agi then gnomes and like I said in my top post AC first then HP, and on the hp issue...

Treladian wrote:Gnomes have human constitution. This means that they can slap on a piece of max_con gear, preferbly an amey belt, and get a quick 50 hp and even up the playing field with barbs and dwarves a little bit. This also means that they're 100 hp ahead of elves in the hp department, more than a worthwhile trade for a little less agility IMO.


Elves notch con at 102 and gain the same bonus of 50 HP as a gnome would if they wore a amy belt so they are not 100 hp ahead of elves, but like I said elves first and gnomes a very very close second. They could almost be equal but one thing we both forgot to mention. Elves can also wear elvenkind cloak to sneak gnomes cant. In addition elves gain innate sneak when in a forest setting without having to use the cloak so thats a bonus. Hope that helps you decide further heh.
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:38 pm

By all means, PLEASE keep it coming! This is being very informative!

Could you guys also please address alignments in regards to available equipment and other negative aspects of having say an evil alignment as well?

So Grey elf and Drow have the best agility in the game? Above a trolls?
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Postby Crumar » Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:52 pm

For good raced tanks the only evil alignment you should be is either human or barbarian. Otherwise being neutral or good is the way to go in most cases. There are a lot of decent stuff out there for goodie tanks and evil barbs can wear renders cloak which notch max con and give them a ton of hp. Never be evil warrior for dwarf/elf because justice would smite you soon as you left your guild hall. Not sure how evil gnome/halflings work in justice in their hometown but I am sure its the same there too.

So basically what I am trying to say if you want to play evil alignment best bet is human/barb otherwise pick another alignment and play elf. Also in regards to Troll vs elf agilitity bonus I was told that trolls got their agility from good side elves. So they are equal in that regard. Now you know why trolls are so ubber when tanking cause they get the best of both worlds.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:03 pm

Trolls are the exception but....I'm talking about goodrace.

As far as agility goes I think it goes:

Elf > Halfling > Gnome > Barbarian > Dwarf ?Human?

I think halflings and gnomes are about even in agility? Not sure.

As far as alignment goes I like being evil. Seems to be more of a selection of eq.

However going evil as a halfling warrior is a bitch, because you start out at 1000 align. No choosing align as you can if your a halfling rogue.

Edit: and oh, guards in beluir (halfling hometown) do not care if you are evil.
Last edited by Nurpy Fuzzyfeet on Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Duna » Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:04 pm

Okay I guess I'm a bit biased. But i gotta say Barb's :)
Barb's have great str. and if rolled right Con's pretty good as well.. they get heller hps.. but they also have several barb only eq items. I know that with a good con barbs can get close to 17 hps a level. So it is possible to have around 850 hps. natural at lvl 50. With innate bodyslam, and being taller then the other goodrace warriors.. they can bash more things than the other races can.. the only warriors that can bash some of the mobs barbs can't are troll and ogres. Well that's my opinion, but like I said i'm biased :) I mainly play Barb warriors :)
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Barb Hps

Postby Klandal » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:41 pm

850 hps NATURAL? I've only seen a couple of 700hp natural barbs ever. Not sure which barb warriors you're talking about unless by natural you mean with 150+hp in eq. :P
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Postby Dalar » Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:08 am

Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:As far as agility goes I think it goes:

Elf > Halfling > Gnome > Barbarian > Dwarf ?Human?


sigh, please don't guess when giving out "info"

Elf > gnome > halfling > barbarian = human > dwarf from what i've gathered.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Duna » Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:20 am

850 hps NATURAL? I've only seen a couple of 700hp natural barbs ever.


close to 17 hps a level. So it is possible to have around 850 hps.


hrmm... first is what Klandal said.. second is what was in my post.. perhaps ya need glasses? :) I figured 17 hps per level, times 50 = abt. 850 hps. I"ve never had a lvl 50 anything, so i don't know what my barb warrior who's gettin 17 hps a level, average, so far is gonna be at. so :P
And as far as align goes *shrug* :) I always go good so i've no clue what's out there for other aligns :)
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HPs

Postby Klandal » Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:21 am

You may notice until lvl 25 you get a range of hps per lvl, but after 25 you get a set amount.

Average for barb warrior seems to be around 685 or so. :)
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:15 am

Dalar wrote:
Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:As far as agility goes I think it goes:

Elf > Halfling > Gnome > Barbarian > Dwarf ?Human?


sigh, please don't guess when giving out "info"

Elf > gnome > halfling > barbarian = human > dwarf from what i've gathered.


Nod my bad, gnomes do have better agility. 100 agility for gnomes =55 ac, and halflings=62
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Postby Treladian » Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:20 am

Crumar wrote:Elves notch con at 102 and gain the same bonus of 50 HP as a gnome would if they wore a amy belt so they are not 100 hp ahead of elves, but like I said elves first and gnomes a very very close second.


From all my testing, I've found that a gnome is TWO con notches ahead of elves AND based on what Hildippie's told me, able to attain a max con notch just as easily as elves. Hence if both an elf warrior and gnome warrior have an amey belt, the gnome will still be 100 HP ahead at level 50.

Of course, all of my analysis is done without fully knowing just how big of an impact that extra agility notch an elf has over a gnome has on avoiding criticals. It is certainly possible that it's enough of a difference to make the hp gap not as meaningful or even meaningless, but without more exact info, I can only guess.
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Postby Sarell » Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:17 am

If Elf agility helps them dodge. Barb/Dorf Strength helps them shieldblock, parry and defense?

Having a hitpoint buffer is very important as getting pummeled doesn't come on an even tangent. You might take a few really big hits or a sandstorm one round, and many others take nothing. The hitpoints are not there to get worn down, they are there to keep you standing between getting smacked a couple of times and the cleric healing you or chanter rescaling.

I'd go Barb / Dorf.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:15 pm

The main comparison I see is agility vs hps. I haven't seen barb/dwarven STR play a big factor in tanking at all.

Barbarian/dwarf have around 200 more natural hps than elf.
Barbarian/dwarf get crit'd more and can't dodge as well.

Vs 5+ mobs, elves will probably dodge many more attacks than barb/dwarf can dodge/shieldblock/parry. Think of each attack in that one round as 70-100 damage per hit. Makes the hp difference look kinda weak doesn't it?

I've personally stuck with agility tanks this wipe. I've noticed that when blurred, I just don't get hit. Seelie, musp invasion etc, you name it. When I'm blurred I don't get hit by melee attacks (other than kick). This is true for barb/dwarven tanks, but when the blur drops, I'm still dodging more than they are.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby rylan » Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:33 am

As a cleric I've noticed that gnome tanks get critted less frequently than dwarves, and elven tanks evade more attacks and get critted a lot less also. If an elven or gnome tank has a pile of +hp eq and earth/fire enbody then they're in really good shape.
Its kind of nice to have a well equipped gnome or elf as a tank because they don't get smacked around as much from huge crits, however the lower hps can cause problems with area spells or normal attacks.
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Postby Disoputlip » Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:26 am

What about agility and crits? Have anyone done any testing on that?
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Postby Mitharx » Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:27 pm

Well, I'm biased towards dwarves, but I also think it depends on the fight.

If you're going into a big caster fight, I say bring dwarves and barbs. I've seen some damn fine elf warriors get smashed with some spells (yes, they were wearing plentyof sv_spell) where the dwarves lived a bit longer because of the extra hps. Elves can wear just as many hps as dwarfs and have better stats and what-not. The EQ can make the warrior, but if you're going on a naked basis and gonna do a big spell fight, I saw dwarves or barbs.

If you're fighting a bunch of hitters (most casters hit hard too, but they won't necessarily spend all their time hitting if they're casting) then I say elves do a bit better. IMHO, a combination of elves and dwarves (or barbarians.... I guess) is the best thing.

If you can only pick one, then consider what kind of tank you wanna be and go for that.
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Postby Gormal » Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:29 pm

The best race to play is always the one that you enjoy the most. People are looking for [50 War], not your race.
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Postby Sesexe » Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:10 pm

Ok, tossing in another element I have questions about! You guys are being so informative! :D

What about available weapons per race? Are there any significant advantages (weapon wise) to being a bigger stronger race? For instance, is there ever a reason to dual wield weapons as a warrior? Are there any warrior weapons that with procs that help a warrior tank better (like blindness) in off-hand? Are any of these too heavy for certain races? Can weaker races still use them if they wear enough +max_str gear? What's the downside of doing so? Or would a weaker race with max str gear be better since their innate agi/dex is better and would therefor proc more? Should someone rolling up a warrior even be concernded about what weapons they'll wield since warrior damage is so.. low? Or are there weapons (standard weapons) every warrior really needs that some races can't use?


And what about +max_agi equipment for dwarves and barbarians? Can they ever notch it? Is there just not enough equipment to do so? Or is there? If there is, what's it take? What are we looking at? Is it even worth it?[/b]

Are there any weapons that do proc off-hand? If so, what are they and what do they proc?
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MaxAgi for Barb

Postby Klandal » Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:18 pm

The max_agi notch for barb warrior is 101 and very easy to get. It's possible to get 2 max notches and be on par with naked elf agi also.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:41 pm

Sesexe wrote:Ok, tossing in another element I have questions about! You guys are being so informative! :D

What about available weapons per race? Are there any significant advantages (weapon wise) to being a bigger stronger race? For instance, is there ever a reason to dual wield weapons as a warrior? Are there any warrior weapons that with procs that help a warrior tank better (like blindness) in off-hand? Are any of these too heavy for certain races? Can weaker races still use them if they wear enough +max_str gear? What's the downside of doing so? Or would a weaker race with max str gear be better since their innate agi/dex is better and would therefor proc more? Should someone rolling up a warrior even be concernded about what weapons they'll wield since warrior damage is so.. low? Or are there weapons (standard weapons) every warrior really needs that some races can't use?


And what about +max_agi equipment for dwarves and barbarians? Can they ever notch it? Is there just not enough equipment to do so? Or is there? If there is, what's it take? What are we looking at? Is it even worth it?[/b]

Are there any weapons that do proc off-hand? If so, what are they and what do they proc?


Well usually a warriors best 1hander is an ebony, since it procs blind, and then once it does its job they switch it out for something with better dice such as basket-hilt.

As 2 handers go...I don't know about elf strength, but my halfling with 112 strength and a 50 lb weight belt could not wield a flamberge. The heaviest weapon I've seen that I can handle is 20 wt. This excludes quite a few 2 handers. Right now I wield a frosty(15 wt), and when dex kicks in, I have a possible 4 attacks per round with a 2hander while hasted, which is brutal :D Only real advantage weapon-wise with being a bigger race is what you can wield, and possibly crit more. Though I think that is a mix between your dex/str.
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Postby Jegzed » Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:00 pm

Gormal wrote:The best race to play is always the one that you enjoy the most. People are looking for [50 War], not your race.


word

I rather have a level 50 yuan warrior played by a great player than a crappy semi-afk troll.
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Re: MaxAgi for Barb

Postby Ashiwi » Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:05 pm

Klandal wrote:The max_agi notch for barb warrior is 101 and very easy to get. It's possible to get 2 max notches and be on par with naked elf agi also.


On par with the naked elven agility??? In your dreams!
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Hey What's the Best Goodie Race for a Warrior, and Why?

Postby Kelzen » Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:47 pm

Although this thread is based on goodie race warrior questions, for interest sake, I will add my experience with a Drow Warrior. A Drow Warrior with 100 str, 100 agi will have 7/6 hit/dam and 49 ac nudie. I will have approx 486 hp at lvl 50. During battles, as general consensus has indicated, I have the advantage of high dodge ability coupled with low HP in which to suffer big crits. What does this mean? Well I find that when running zones, I die a bit - due to the differing battle scenarios (area spells, multiple mobs) the HPs matter the most. Maybe with more HP eq, I would survive enough to tell you that I can outtank a Troll, but currently that's not the case. Inevitably, it's the HP's that matter the most and, unless the much discussed melee changes actually take place, you will always be a punching bag to protect the damage making classes. Nevertheless, I enjoy playing my character and won't stop anytime soon. As a previous post indicated, it's really what you like to play and how much you are prepared to suffer to play it.

Cheers,
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Re: Hey What's the Best Goodie Race for a Warrior, and Why?

Postby Treladian » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:43 am

Kelzen wrote:Troll


Troll's throw the entire tank race discussion out of whack. A better comparison would be between you and an ogre. Trolls don't just have great hp, they also have agility equivalent to a gnome, meaning that they're just about as agile as a drow. Goodies obviously have no such race.
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Postby Treladian » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:46 am

Sarell wrote:If Elf agility helps them dodge. Barb/Dorf Strength helps them shieldblock, parry and defense?


Agility does more than just "help them dodge," it just plain avoids critical hits, something that no skill does. Stats don't really affect skills in meaningful ways based on the collective observations of the players. How often do you see a max skilled dwarf rogue failing sneak/hide after all?

I also forgot that there's a bonus to parry from high dexterity, though I have no idea how much of an effect it has. It was one of the really early changes put in during Soj 3's alpha to try to balance warriors between races before the god's realized that it was really criticals being able to ignore all the defenses in the world that was the problem.

Finally, elves have some innate resistance to spell damage so their lesser hp total may not have as much of an effect as it would otherwise in caster battles. It's probably not a huge resistance, but it was intended to lessen the gap between elves and human hp range races IIRC. I'd be curious as to the results of having an elf and human stand somewhere and repeatedly get area'd, but that kind of test is a bit difficult to pull off . . .
Last edited by Treladian on Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sservis » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:49 am

There's a ton of misinformation in this thread. Based on testing of the races here's how they shake out.

Code: Select all

race,str,dex,agi,war,cle/sha,inv,mem,pray
drow    , 4, 7,49,35,27+2,17+2,20,29
duergar , 7, 6,70,39,29+4,19+4,29,27 [inv hp based off ele as 2+0 higher]
ogre    ,10, 5,92,41,22+5,    ,  ,43
troll   , 6, 6,55,40,22+4,    ,  ,36
illithid, 2, 7,87,  ,    ,15+1,  , 
yuanti  , 5, 6,49,36,28+2,18+2,23,20
orc     , 5, 6,70,36,20+2,    ,  ,27

race,str,dex,agi,war,cle/sha,inv,mem,pray
gnome   , 3, 7,55,36,28+2,18+2,23,29
grey elf, 4, 7,49,34,27+1,17+1,20,27
barb    , 6, 6,70,39,21+4,    ,  ,27
dwarf   , 6, 6,70,39,29+4,    ,  ,27
halfling, 3,10,62,36,28+2,18+2,29,31
human   , 5, 6,70,36,28+2,18+2,27,27
halfelf , 5, 6,62,36,28+2,    ,  ,27


to the best of my knowledge agi notches produce naked AC of 100 95? 92 87 80 70 62 55 49 45 ??

the mem pray times are based on game entry mem/pray which means !hungry !thirsty

some mage hp are extrapolations as not all races have invokers, the cle or shaman hp are listed where applicable as no race can be both [druid appears the same as cleric hp, and is listed as such]

hp listed as 17+2 means that with 100 con the character would have 19/17 hp on game entry [17 hp + 2 extra notches]

Since this information is easily derivable I don't consider it anything super secret.
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Postby Treladian » Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:08 am

Sesexe wrote:For instance, is there ever a reason to dual wield weapons as a warrior?


Have you ever watched a ranger tank? That's essentially what you'd get, except you'd have piss poor damage to boot due to the low dual wield skill. Any reason a warrior might have for dual wielding can be covered by a rogue.

Are there any warrior weapons that with procs that help a warrior tank better (like blindness) in off-hand?


Ebony is the only warrior usable offhand proccer that would assist in tanking to any noticeable degree (glimmering bs would be interesting if it actually stunned against high level mobs, but it doesn't).

Are any of these too heavy for certain races? Can weaker races still use them if they wear enough +max_str gear? What's the downside of doing so?


Ebony requires max str for a human to wield, and plenty of it. A dwarf or barb could manage much easier. An elf, gnome, or halfling is out of luck if they want to try it for some bizarre reason.

Are there any weapons that do proc off-hand? If so, what are they and what do they proc?


Ebony has been mentioned already.
Glimmbering bastard sword procs some damage and an attempt to stun, but high level mobs always resist it.
Bec de Corbin procs an extra attack
Fiery mace still procs its fire corona offhand.
Starsong is elf/halfelf only and procs faerie fire offhand if outside at night.
Valhalla procs offhand, but only trolls and rangers get the heal proc.

Of these, only ebony and fiery mace are too heavy for an elf to offhand.

These are the only warriorable weapons that I know proc offhand. I've heard that the musp scimitar might proc offhand too, but it's a small list regardless. Despite originally being a proposed ranger upgrade, the offhand proc flag has mainly been applied to rogue weapons. I've bugged some of the area makers I know to put in a warriorable offhander with a useful status effect proc . . .
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:30 am

Sservis wrote:There's a ton of misinformation in this thread. Based on testing of the races here's how they shake out.

Code: Select all

race,str,dex,agi,war,cle/sha,inv,mem,pray
drow    , 4, 7,49,35,27+2,17+2,20,29
duergar , 7, 6,70,39,29+4,19+4,29,27 [inv hp based off ele as 2+0 higher]
ogre    ,10, 5,92,41,22+5,    ,  ,43
troll   , 6, 6,55,40,22+4,    ,  ,36
illithid, 2, 7,87,  ,    ,15+1,  , 
yuanti  , 5, 6,49,36,28+2,18+2,23,20
orc     , 5, 6,70,36,20+2,    ,  ,27

race,str,dex,agi,war,cle/sha,inv,mem,pray
gnome   , 3, 7,55,36,28+2,18+2,23,29
grey elf, 4, 7,49,34,27+1,17+1,20,27
barb    , 6, 6,70,39,21+4,    ,  ,27
dwarf   , 6, 6,70,39,29+4,    ,  ,27
halfling, 3,10,62,36,28+2,18+2,29,31
human   , 5, 6,70,36,28+2,18+2,27,27
halfelf , 5, 6,62,36,28+2,    ,  ,27


to the best of my knowledge agi notches produce naked AC of 100 95? 92 87 80 70 62 55 49 45 ??

the mem pray times are based on game entry mem/pray which means !hungry !thirsty

some mage hp are extrapolations as not all races have invokers, the cle or shaman hp are listed where applicable as no race can be both [druid appears the same as cleric hp, and is listed as such]

hp listed as 17+2 means that with 100 con the character would have 19/17 hp on game entry [17 hp + 2 extra notches]

Since this information is easily derivable I don't consider it anything super secret.
[/code]


Sservis, I have no idea what you just said.
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Postby Sservis » Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:36 am

Sesexe wrote:Sservis, I have no idea what you just said.


It's a list of what effects 100 in stat has by race

str = damroll
dex = hitroll
agi = naked ac
war = warrior hp
cle/sha = cle/sha hp [rogues tend to have the same hp as clerics, not sure on bard/battlechanter]
inv = mage hp [add 2+0 for ele, ill, nec. enc has same hp as inv]
mem = seconds to mem a 1st circle spell at 1st level !hungry !thirsty
pray = same as mem, but for pray

And for my answer, the best eq-ed tanks go yuanti and then gnome/elf [close call as 100 hp vs 1 agi notch is difficult to decide on.]
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Postby rylan » Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:51 pm

Wow yaunti must have a massive wisdom bonus.
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Postby icecillam » Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:14 pm

rylan wrote:Wow yaunti must have a massive wisdom bonus.


They got it a while ago (1-2 years?). Something about fitting the racial description cuz they use to have wisdom worse than a human I think. One of the older yuans probably knows more.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:23 pm

yeah early this wipe we called snake clerics fail bots .... they failed resses with alarming regularity ...
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Postby Mitharx » Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:21 am

Just FYI: Word from the big guy on gcc not too long ago was that elves do not have a resistance to spells beyond other races. Personally, I have no clue (obviously). But that's the word.
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Postby Jhorr » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:50 am

Paladins and Antis still make viable tanks imo. They haven't been mentioned here at all. In fact, when this wipe began paladins tanked the best. Their weapons are kinda neat too.

Oops, just re-read the thread and realized this was about warriors specifically. didn't mean to hijack! sorry..
Last edited by Jhorr on Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Treladian » Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:19 pm

Mitharx wrote:Just FYI: Word from the big guy on gcc not too long ago was that elves do not have a resistance to spells beyond other races. Personally, I have no clue (obviously). But that's the word.


Wording would be important. The information I got was that it wasn't a general spell resistance, only a decrease to damage so plenty of stuff still works on elves. Kia confirmed this (without specifically mentioning the races with it) on the bbs some time ago. However, this is of course does not preclude the possibility it was removed without notifying the players.
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Postby Mitharx » Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:35 am

Right you are. I'm not really sure either way and I haven't noticed a difference. Just making known what was said. For all I know, it was said just so mud secrets aren't given away.
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Postby Sesexe » Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:15 pm

Jhorr wrote:Paladins and Antis still make viable tanks imo. They haven't been mentioned here at all. In fact, when this wipe began paladins tanked the best. Their weapons are kinda neat too.

Oops, just re-read the thread and realized this was about warriors specifically. didn't mean to hijack! sorry..


Yep, I'm just curious about warriors. :D

I wasn't sure what I wanted to roll up. There have been some strong arguments for the smaller more agile races, as there have been for the bigger ones.


Well I'm still confused and unsure. :\

Lemme ask all you all again about another aspect that appears uncovered by this discussion: What are the advantages and dissadvantages to being a big race or a smaller race when it comes to CR's and dragging other races AND having other folks drag you? Like ogres have the problem of being dragged by weaker races. Do Barbarians/dwarves have this problem? Can elves/gnomes/halflings drag barbarains normally? If not, what do they need?
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Postby Birile » Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:57 pm

Greys, gnomes and halflings cannot drag barbarians normally--not positive whether they can drag dorfs, but I'm guessing not without +maxstr. My grey elf elementalist can drag barbarian shamans when earth embodied (90ish str) but can't budge a barbarian warrior. So, an embodiment, +maxstr gear, etc. is needed by the weaker races to drag the fatter races. Usually a rogue is used to CR anyway, so I don't think any of this should be the deciding factor in choosing a warrior's race.

Something that has NOT been mentioned that you will need to realize is that gnomes and halflings need +pcweight to bash most/all humanoid mobs. The most popular (or only?) +pcweight items are the belt of super density, the adamantium shield and bands of deformities. Without these, bashing humanoids just is not possible. I find the adamantium shield is usually enough for my halfling warrior (the lightest of the races), and that's the best slot to get +pcweight IMHO since the belt/finger slots are so vital for hp's, etc. Add to this fact that +maxstr is needed to wield 2handers by the smaller races (including grey elves) and you have several slots of eq that can/are taken up at any given time. Barbarians, dorfs and humans don't have this problem (well, I'm unsure about humans' ability to wield some 2handers, but I know they can wield Twilight with !+maxstr).

No one has mentioned humans as the best warrior race, with good reason. They have horrid agi and dex, and their con is akin to gnomes (who have better agi/dex), and their str is not on par with the barbarian/dorf races who have similar agi notches to humans.

There are several quests that give barbarian-only eq that is custom-made for the warrior class that make barbarians a great choice (not to mention their high hp's compared to the other goodie races).

Most of the races, basically, have valid reasons to choose them (except for humans, really--if you make a human go with a paladin or anti, to be honest). In the end, go with what race you think you would enjoy the most, and keep in mind that dorf/grey cannot be evil without having serious problems. The prevalence of unholy wording mobs on this MUD makes a good-aligned warrior difficult to play at times. There aren't near as many holy wording mobs, and neutral-aligns don't have to worry about either spell. But dorf/grey can be neutral, so don't discount them since they shouldn't be evil-align. None of the other goodie race hometowns have a justice system that frowns on evil-aligned goodraces entering.

Just some thoughts for yeh.
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defensive skills

Postby Abbayarra » Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:39 pm

Defensive skills are controlled by strength. The better your strength, the better your defensive skills. Agility controls how often you get critted and how hard the crit is.
In most other areas I would think that you ignore the affect of higher controlling stats on the success of the skill.
I would suggest that more research should be done for how much more successful defensive skills are for the higher strength races compared to the lower strength races. Does the greater success of shieldblock, defense, and parry offset more and harder crits? Will your average damage be less?
I have seen my brothers ogre warrior tank, he makes far more defensive skill checks than a lower strength warrior(i.e. human) would. It might be better to take the stronger warrior for this reason coupled with higher hitpoints.
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Re: defensive skills

Postby Treladian » Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:23 pm

Abbayarra wrote:I would suggest that more research should be done for how much more successful defensive skills are for the higher strength races compared to the lower strength races. Does the greater success of shieldblock, defense, and parry offset more and harder crits? Will your average damage be less?


I'd be interested in seeing some serious logging and stats gathered for this. A lot of us don't believe that high strength does that much for tanking skills. Of course, you also have to remember that goodie races don't get the extreme bonuses an ogre gets and goodies are the subject of the debate.

In any case, my viewpoint comes from someone who mainly is acting in support of the tank, not the one doing the actual tanking. No warrior tanks high level mobs in a vacuum and IMO, making sure that the supporting players are able to keep up with keeping you alive is a very important aspect. Small amounts of damage more frequently aren't as surprising for a cleric as suddenly going from small wounds to pretty hurt. Likewise, a megacrit like that means that suddenly my attention is diverted from focusing on helping to rescue casters and rogues/bards to the warrior who might just autorescue me and get pounded again if they have an unconditional rescue trigger. We typically have to rely on steady attrition of a mob's hitpoints to win and anything that breaks up the steady process easily stands out.

I have seen my brothers ogre warrior tank, he makes far more defensive skill checks than a lower strength warrior(i.e. human) would. It might be better to take the stronger warrior for this reason coupled with higher hitpoints.


Human really isn't a good comparison since so many races match humans in either agility or con while having a big boost to the other. Also, while there is a bonus to parry for high dex so it's not just one stat affecting the skill. Hence why I'd like to test this in depth somehow.
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Postby Treladian » Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:35 pm

Sesexe wrote:I wasn't sure what I wanted to roll up. There have been some strong arguments for the smaller more agile races, as there have been for the bigger ones.


Well, do keep in mind that the agile warriors aren't as common so they do have a certain style to them 8)

Lemme ask all you all again about another aspect that appears uncovered by this discussion: What are the advantages and dissadvantages to being a big race or a smaller race when it comes to CR's and dragging other races AND having other folks drag you? Like ogres have the problem of being dragged by weaker races. Do Barbarians/dwarves have this problem? Can elves/gnomes/halflings drag barbarains normally? If not, what do they need?


Even a human will have trouble dragging a dwarf or barbarian. There's typically a lot of comments about losing weight or going on Atkins slung whenever there's a CR of a barbarian or dwarf. On the opposite extreme, elves, halflings, and gnomes are so light that I think I could probably dual wield them (hmmm . . . dual wielding pocket Lili's . . .). In the event that a warrior does need to be the one CRing, enlarges and embodiments are often available. Max str is a bit more problematic though. Much of the max str gear is !good so some warriors have issues with it. However, the only goodie race that can be a shaman is barbarian so you've often got someone that can drag the fatties out in a group. Similarily, there typically will be at least one barb or dwarf warrior in the group since they're so common compared to agile tanks.
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Postby Sesexe » Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:56 pm

Does anyone know what the str notches are for the warriorable good races?

Have any barbarian warriors tried decking themselves out in +max_str gear to increase crit percentage? Was it even worth it? I ask because I have seen some evilrace tanks decked out with max_str and they proc the gythka like nutso. I mean it! Almost 1 proc a round practically, and lots of multiple procs.

Are most weapon procs tied to crits, and therefor crit percentage? Therefor is a bigger stronger race, more prone to having their weapon proc?
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Postby Treladian » Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:59 am

Sesexe wrote:Have any barbarian warriors tried decking themselves out in +max_str gear to increase crit percentage? Was it even worth it? I ask because I have seen some evilrace tanks decked out with max_str and they proc the gythka like nutso. I mean it! Almost 1 proc a round practically, and lots of multiple procs.


Ever 10 strength over the equivalent of 100 human strength is a 1% increase in crit rate. A human's first max str notch is around 108 or 109, so based on the numbers Sservis provided, barbs and dwarves probably have a strength bonus of between something like 8 and 15 since they only get one damn more at 100 strength. Duergar and ogres are considerably stronger. Additionally, a good chunk of the max str gear out there is evil only so it's basically out of the picture for dwarves.

In any case you're looking at an auxillary ability of warriors at best. Most goodie warriors don't pretend they're hitters and don't play around with two handed weapons. The bigger pbase, prevalence of rogue alts, and the longer history of rangers compared to dires means that we have plenty of dedicated hitters without having to rely on warriors. Evils on the other hand have a long history of having warriors double as hitters from previous wipes before rogues came into being. There's an important gap in mentality here.

Are most weapon procs tied to crits, and therefor crit percentage? Therefor is a bigger stronger race, more prone to having their weapon proc?


No. Gythka and fiery mace are the only two that stand out in my mind for warrior weapons. I'm sure there are more, but I mainly only focus on offhandable weapons and twohanders with status effects. Most weapons proc regardless of criticals. And for that, the extra dex attack that gnomes, halflings, and elves get is an advantage.
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Postby Sarell » Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:53 am

sauk dagger just for barbs is kinda cool
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Postby Mplor » Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:10 am

Treladian wrote:A human's first max str notch is around 108 or 109, so based on the numbers Sservis provided, barbs and dwarves probably have a strength bonus of between something like 8 and 15 since they only get one damn more at 100 strength.


Human warrior/monk/paladin/anti-paladins used to have a strength notch at 101, didn't they? I think I used to get 1 extra damroll at 101 str on each of those classes. Has this changed?
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Postby Treladian » Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:40 pm

Mplor wrote:Human warrior/monk/paladin/anti-paladins used to have a strength notch at 101, didn't they? I think I used to get 1 extra damroll at 101 str on each of those classes. Has this changed?


Character attributes for Cekar

Level: 32 Race: Human Class: Anti-Paladin
Age: 85 yrs / 2 mths Height: 72 inches Weight: 215 lbs
STR: 100 AGI: 93 DEX: 78 CON: 100
POW: 42 INT: 44 WIS: 74 CHA: 75
Armor Class: -1 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 16 Damroll: 20
Alignment: -1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[-9]
Wimpy: 50
Load carried: Very Light

< 381h/376H 161p/161P 150v/150V >
< > wear thick
It glows brightly.
You place a thick adamantium bracelet around your left wrist.

< 381h/376H 161p/161P 150v/150V >
< > att

Character attributes for Cekar

Level: 32 Race: Human Class: Anti-Paladin
Age: 85 yrs / 2 mths Height: 72 inches Weight: 215 lbs
STR: 104 AGI: 93 DEX: 78 CON: 100
POW: 42 INT: 44 WIS: 74 CHA: 75
Armor Class: -3 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 16 Damroll: 20
Alignment: -1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[-9]
Wimpy: 50
Load carried: Very Light


Apparently it has. I have to get strength above 109 for a notch, so it's anywhere between 110 to 113 for it now.

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