Things that make me really hate undead-heavy zones.

[Nekelet]

Being a lich, you'd think I'd be the master of the undead - or at least *I'd* like to think so...

So why is it that:
* Liches have no effective high-circle area spell against undead.
* - rain doesn't count - I refuse to lose utility, shield popping, or rots for what should be a lower circle imo. rain is a petspell
* - if a whole mess of bugs can hurt the undead, why can't maggots? Sorry druids, if this backfires... Why does something thats pretty rotten already NOT get affected by rot?
* Liches can't avoid being aggrod by undead. (unable to Prot from Undead)
* Can't avoid the damage that PfU seems to reduce (10th eye)
* Can't wail. might make sense, but if I can't hurt them or protect myself from them, maybe I should be able to weaken them so other people can..
* Can't drain them. This does make perfect sense, but. if I can't do any of the above, it'd be nice to be able to stay alive against them.

I've been trying to keep in mind that we're still awaiting further melee balance/caster tweaks before griping about this (and I've avoiding griping about losing abi's, rain circle, and !trans for lich) But I think this might warrant some attention.
I'm thinking a lich only, vs Undead only area spell, and fixing PfU would be reasonable and sufficient.

Thoughts?

[Dalar]

play an invoker

[Nekelet]

Thanks, that was helpful.

[fotex]

you didn't mention eradicate undead. does contagion work?

i would justify the rot vs. doom argument with that the bugs from creeping doom actually bite (do physical damage), whereas the maggots just feed on living flesh.

[rylan]

I thought maggots actually ate dead flesh. Well unless they're special magical maggots. Maybe like maggot missiles. Yeah

[Nekelet]

Eradicate is fair. Similar dmg to lich touch, and same circle. Didn't mention it as it seems fine.

Contagion hit rate is pretty abysmal without wail (which doesn't work) so I'm unsure about whether it affects undead.

[Treladian]

Contagion literally means disease, so I doubt it affects undead.

[Mitharx]

I've felt this way for a while, but I figured if I kept quiet and didn't let the leaders know (or lead myself) then no one would know any better:P

But yeah, I was kinda hoping that magical maggots could kill undeads.

[Ashod]

I thought maggots actually ate dead flesh. Well unless they're special magical maggots. Maybe like maggot missiles. Yeah

Bahahahah!

[Nekelet]

Az:
I've felt this way for a while, but I figured if I kept quiet and didn't let the leaders know (or lead myself) then no one would know any better:P

Yeah, there went the CC et. al. invites. :P

Trel:
Contagion literally means disease, so I doubt it affects undead

Doubt it as well. I don't recall ever seeing a hit, but also don't recall seeing a definitive 'this won't work' like you get with wail. The normal 'fails to take hold' message from contagion reads much like most spells 'this just won't work.'

Will add some hilights for contagion next time I hit an undead zone to see if I can get a solid answer.

[Sesexe]

Being a lich, you'd think I'd be the master of the undead - or at least *I'd* like to think so...

So why is it that:
* Liches have no effective high-circle area spell against undead.
* - rain doesn't count - I refuse to lose utility, shield popping, or rots for what should be a lower circle imo. rain is a petspell
* - if a whole mess of bugs can hurt the undead, why can't maggots? Sorry druids, if this backfires... Why does something thats pretty rotten already NOT get affected by rot?
* Liches can't avoid being aggrod by undead. (unable to Prot from Undead)
* Can't avoid the damage that PfU seems to reduce (10th eye)
* Can't wail. might make sense, but if I can't hurt them or protect myself from them, maybe I should be able to weaken them so other people can..
* Can't drain them. This does make perfect sense, but. if I can't do any of the above, it'd be nice to be able to stay alive against them.

I've been trying to keep in mind that we're still awaiting further melee balance/caster tweaks before griping about this (and I've avoiding griping about losing abi's, rain circle, and !trans for lich) But I think this might warrant some attention.
I'm thinking a lich only, vs Undead only area spell, and fixing PfU would be reasonable and sufficient.

Thoughts?

First off, I'd just like to once again express my thanks to the staff for finaly fixing undead vision! :D


Now I'm going to direct my comments to Nekelet gum here personally. This is not a rant! Lich's are better now then they've ever been. Just having a conversation with another grave tender here.

Nekelet,

Your disgruntlement with lack of !undead oriented spells is the main reason I'd really like to have a Detect Undead spell for necromancers/liches. So many of our spells don't affect them, and necro/lich's don't normally run around with !undead spells mem'd (since well they only affect undead - and we have so many other spells that are in regular use), so it would be nice to know ahead of time, by like say, being able to look into a room before a run and know what's undead - allowing you to swap out and mem the appropriate damage spells, or if it's even worth doing so.

(PFU) I feel a Lich should have innate PFU. Todrael was saying that since day one. It's even been suggested over the last few years that they should have a lesser form of this spell that is always active, which prevents mobs below 20th (or was it 10th?) that are flagged undead from ever attacking the lich in the first place. (annoying pissant aggros, not major mobs). In 3rd edition they call this ability "Lich Loved". In 2nd Edition the Dustmen had it where undead didn't attack you unless you attacked them. It's not a new concept.

(Rot) It's fine. I can understand the restriction. Makes sense.

(Contagion) I use this spell extensively. I always have it mem'd now. I cast it during EXP. I cast it on little mobs for newbies to beat on. (That reminds me, perhaps more mobs in the newbie zones should be under the influence of this spell, especially the mage guilds.) I cast it during zones. I casted it on Imix doing FP and watched him get rocked from it. Doesn't always land, but it sure is sweet when it does. I too can't recall if this works on undead or not. If it doesn't, and since we know banshee wail doesn't, it would be nice to have something that does weaken undead I suppose.

(Life Drain) This spell is fine, it shouldn't work on undead. They have no life to drain.

(Energy Drain) A useless spell as it stands. Could use a serious revamp. Here are my thoughts on how to do so: Would be nice if this spell changed in effects. For a living necromancer it would just be a low level damage spell against undead, increasing in damage as level goes up. As a lich it could work like life drain (damage and healing - BUT NOT the Vit effect. Only heal up to max, NO BUFFER bonus) but upon undead only, and got more powerful with levels to be the equivalent of life drain against undead (like how rot gets more powerful with each level above 46th). Being a lower circle spell, and therefor able to mem a number of them, it would help a lich in general with their arsenal against undead. Maybe the 'energy' you're draining/leeching/stealing is the negative planar energy that feeds all undead and you the lich are just adding it to your own. I can't remember which circle life drain is and which circle energy drain is, might be too big of a gap.

Snuggles Nekelet! :D

[Sszantiel]

Thanks for the undead vision.

Permanent PFU is a must. =)

[moritheil]

I, too, was actually recently wondering why liches didn't simply get innate PFU commensurate with level.

Actually, I'd like to see an 'awe undead,' wherein not only will they not attack you, but really small undead will be auto-dominated by your mastery of necromancy as you walk into the room, and will turn to serve your will. Mind you, I just think that this would be cool, and from a gameplay perspective, it wouldn't really mean much.