Death and the lack thereof

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
moritheil
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Death and the lack thereof

Postby moritheil » Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:13 am

I had a really long conversation once with someone who equated dying on the MUD with real death. My argument ran that the game is for fun; if in death you have a lot of fun, nothing is wrong with dying. Her argument ran that any death is a loss of something, and should be feared and avoided whenever possible. I replied that in a game, death only has whatever penalty the coders choose to attach to it. Since right after that I got angrily asked back if I laughed at 9/11 (whatever relevance that has to it), the discussion was inconclusive.

Unfortunately, it seems that I've been seeing more and more people morbidly afraid to die and lose level (when they haven't gotten skills up and they are beyond losing perm hps) or to lose exp. They would often rather run exp than zone. For me, the fun is in the zoning, so I don't understand why someone would pass up zoning and possible death except in unusual circumstances (not enough time to CR, don't have prots needed for the zone, level 20 anon mistakenly invited to Scorps, etc.)

So, as for me, I'm just curious about the mindset the newer players seem to be getting. I want to suggest to people that the entire purpose of building up all this exp is just to blow it on death, and that avoiding death by not zoning is akin to refusing to buy food or pay rent because you don't want to spend money that you've earned. Yeah, it may suck to see it go, but the entire purpose of working is to keep yourself fed and sheltered, right?
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Mirsas
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=D

Postby Mirsas » Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:14 pm

I'm all for spanking :D.
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Birile
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Postby Birile » Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:55 pm

Mori, let people play how they wanna play. We all have hang-ups about one thing or another. Be happy that their hang-ups are so insignificant. :wink:
Dugmaren
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Postby Dugmaren » Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:18 pm

I always have the most fun when I'm in a fight that wears the group right down to no spells, 1/4 of the casters are out memorizing, I've blown a couple of potions, and then either barely survive, or die but in such a way as the group survives. Some of the best times are working your way back through cave city with a wooden shield and a spear - you know.. when missing a bash means 1/2 the group dies. It's exciting.

It depends what dieing means. If it means you're going to lose 50 and a bunch of skill points, have to sit on yur butt AFK for over an hour waiting to get CR'd, interfere with real life, or possibly lose your favorite new gauntlets then I 100% understand not wanting to die. I have the benefit of not losing 50 for a .. while, usually getting to CR, unconcerned about equipment loss, and happy leaving corpses in zones when I haev to leave. As such, I'm always in for a good death.

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Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:56 pm

Dugmaren wrote:I always have the most fun when I'm in a fight that wears the group right down to no spells, 1/4 of the casters are out memorizing, I've blown a couple of potions, and then either barely survive, or die but in such a way as the group survives. Some of the best times


I couldn't agree more! Now that's a fight! And that would be a glorious death, worthy of honor.

On the other hand, there are stupid deaths and stupid spanks, that appear to plague Mori-groups. No offense mori, but how many of your spanks are stupid deaths as compared to glory deaths?

I'd like to think the majority of players on here don't mind dying, as long as the circumstances aren't so absurd? Going down fighting in a legitimate hard battle, is a lot different then some dumbass leading Imix onto the party the second you enter fire plane. (just hypothetical example there for comparison sakes.)
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Treladian
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Re: Death and the lack thereof

Postby Treladian » Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:59 pm

moritheil wrote:So, as for me, I'm just curious about the mindset the newer players seem to be getting. I want to suggest to people that the entire purpose of building up all this exp is just to blow it on death, and that avoiding death by not zoning is akin to refusing to buy food or pay rent because you don't want to spend money that you've earned. Yeah, it may suck to see it go, but the entire purpose of working is to keep yourself fed and sheltered, right?


First off, I agree with Touk. No surprises there though, I've mentioned a lot of times that about the only times I really got to use all my skills in a group is when Touk lead a group of half veterans and half zoning newbies and things start to get bumpy. And like him, I haven't really been in danger of losing a level or skills for a long, long time . . . I had 7 tiapet deaths and never saw the little exp bar move and have only gained more exp since then.

I also agree with Touk about how someone could very much not want to die under various circumstances. 6 hour crypts CRs were a very real possibility two years ago and that's not a good prospect if you have to work in the morning.

I also have to add that your perspective is very different from some who play other classes though. I've listened to clerics and chanters mention how it can sometimes be almost impossible for them to not lose levels since they keep getting asked to join zone groups that wind up getting spanked without any chance to make up that lost exp since they're in such demand. I imagine that this hasn't gotten any better as the pbase has shrunk. Casters that don't have good offense have a much tougher time making up lost experience or gaining it in the first place and I've repeatedly told some of them that they need to refuse zone groups every now and then to make sure they can actually afford to risk deaths. Frankly, I'm glad if some of the newer players are able to turn down a zone invite to build up a buffer. A lot of the players I had conversations with couldn't stand exp even though they realized that they were slowly losing their higher level spells.
teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:03 pm

Well, with you Mori, rather than potential death, consenting you is like a guarantee.
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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:25 pm

Sesexe wrote:
Dugmaren wrote:I always have the most fun when I'm in a fight that wears the group right down to no spells, 1/4 of the casters are out memorizing, I've blown a couple of potions, and then either barely survive, or die but in such a way as the group survives. Some of the best times


I couldn't agree more! Now that's a fight! And that would be a glorious death, worthy of honor.

On the other hand, there are stupid deaths and stupid spanks, that appear to plague Mori-groups. No offense mori, but how many of your spanks are stupid deaths as compared to glory deaths?

I'd like to think the majority of players on here don't mind dying, as long as the circumstances aren't so absurd? Going down fighting in a legitimate hard battle, is a lot different then some dumbass leading Imix onto the party the second you enter fire plane. (just hypothetical example there for comparison sakes.)


The mark of success is when people wholeheartedly believe your press releases. =)

That being said, ask Warek if his death tanking all of AP so that some of us could get out and hold pop was meaningless.

Treladian, I got by from level 41 to 45 doing nothing but zoning, and gaining exp from it. I know I can't have the best survival rate or anything like that, so that's not it. At the time, due to 99% of rooms being non-nature, druids weren't dealing much damage, so that's probably not it either (although we still dealt a little more damage than clerics, I maybe tied with warriors or paladins/antipaladins in the zone groups I was going with.)

My point? There's a certain amount of skill in zoning all the time and not losing much or any net exp. Of course, as Gormal is fond of pointing out, some zones just seem to take far more xp than they give, but there are still a great many that you can die in and come away balanced. I'm not really against n00bs nonstop zoning if they're learning the skills to maintain their exp levels to whatever level they're satisfied with, while zoning.

Not to be cheezy, but don't you feel that if I did it, so can they?

On the other hand, there is a very real danger we are encountering of people with high levels in their character that don't have actual skill in playing it commensurate with level. Everyone has heard horror stories of "level 50 noobs." Exp might get them the levels, but zoning, insofar as I have seen, develops the skills and mentality.

When I take a highlevel cleric (~50) to a zone, and I am the one who baby heals all the blind, prots people who need prots, summons in an emergency, dispels, silences, is forced to heal a tank who got to ph because the cleric was fharming in a pitched battle, and generally keeps the group alive better than they do, can you tell me, objectively, that that player - regardless of level - was worth any more to me than taking a level 36 cleric who really knew what they were doing?
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Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:12 am

moritheil wrote:That being said, ask Warek if his death tanking all of AP so that some of us could get out and hold pop was meaningless.


From what I heard, at least some time ago a lot of the deaths in your groups had to deal with a lack of explanations about exactly what needed to be done and the people in the group not enough experience and understanding to figure it out on your own. Mikar had the same problem with his infamous groups as well. While you're not quite so synonymous with death as before (though still ahead of everyone else in that category so your legacy still, er, lives I guess), I do have to point out that you have had your share of meaningless deaths. Even though Trogar and Dornax typically had veterans or disciplined newbies that had learned extremely fast, they still gave a brief statement about each big fight we went into no matter how many times we had done it just in case. Actually, I think they may have had macros or aliases to spit out messages keyed to different fights.

Treladian, I got by from level 41 to 45 doing nothing but zoning, and gaining exp from it. I know I can't have the best survival rate or anything like that, so that's not it. At the time, due to 99% of rooms being non-nature, druids weren't dealing much damage, so that's probably not it either (although we still dealt a little more damage than clerics, I maybe tied with warriors or paladins/antipaladins in the zone groups I was going with.)


You don't just deal little more damage than clerics. Flame blade works perfectly fine indoors and even with a fraction of your full damage that's still much more than what a cleric's complement of full harm and flamestrike does to say nothing of enchanters. With four druids initially in Imphras that often played at the same time, we relied on druid areas quite a bit before we got invokers. Druids aren't offensive powerhouses, but they definately blow away enchanters and clerics.

My point? There's a certain amount of skill in zoning all the time and not losing much or any net exp. Of course, as Gormal is fond of pointing out, some zones just seem to take far more xp than they give, but there are still a great many that you can die in and come away balanced. I'm not really against n00bs nonstop zoning if they're learning the skills to maintain their exp levels to whatever level they're satisfied with, while zoning.


We're not talking about maintaining exp. We're talking about casters that are steadily losing it zone after zone. Jot is one of the better zones for exp but I remember Omrec mentioning that he only got about 8% of a buffer for 50 from it. A death and ress takes away about 4% exp and most zones aren't as good for exp, meaning that more than one death for a chanter yields negative exp.

On the other hand, there is a very real danger we are encountering of people with high levels in their character that don't have actual skill in playing it commensurate with level. Everyone has heard horror stories of "level 50 noobs." Exp might get them the levels, but zoning, insofar as I have seen, develops the skills and mentality.


I wasn't talking about level 50 noobs. My conversations have been with Imphras veterans that were steadily losing exp night after night. Yet they weren't able to make themselves either dedicate themselves to making up the lost exp or turning down a zone invitation. If the new player in question is completely ignoring zoning in favor of exp, then yes, they'll have a stunted skill growth as a player. However, one that is willing to settle down and do some exp after having tasted the more exciting gameplay of zoning is one that realizes that their character needs a solid foundation of spells and skills in addition to what the player is capable of. How willing would you be to take a high level warrior that knows what's required of them in a zone, but has yet to advance their rescue and shieldpunch skills beyond 60? Ultimately both the player and character act as gateways to what one can do on the MUD and I don't think you can fault a good player or a player that is on their way to becoming good for wanting to ensure their character will perform adequetely for them.
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:04 pm

Treladian wrote:I wasn't talking about level 50 noobs. My conversations have been with Imphras veterans that were steadily losing exp night after night. Yet they weren't able to make themselves either dedicate themselves to making up the lost exp or turning down a zone invitation. If the new player in question is completely ignoring zoning in favor of exp, then yes, they'll have a stunted skill growth as a player. However, one that is willing to settle down and do some exp after having tasted the more exciting gameplay of zoning is one that realizes that their character needs a solid foundation of spells and skills in addition to what the player is capable of. How willing would you be to take a high level warrior that knows what's required of them in a zone, but has yet to advance their rescue and shieldpunch skills beyond 60? Ultimately both the player and character act as gateways to what one can do on the MUD and I don't think you can fault a good player or a player that is on their way to becoming good for wanting to ensure their character will perform adequetely for them.


Treladian wrote:Frankly, I'm glad if some of the newer players are able to turn down a zone invite to build up a buffer.


That's what I was referring to. Veterans are another story here. They know what they're doing, and can decide what they want or are willing to put forth.

How willing am I to take such a warrior? I rarely ask what someone's skill levels are. Granted, not having rescue skill makes your character worse than useless, so I might ask about that.

Primarily, I want to point out that having a gimped character and a very good player is better than having a good character and an idiot afk player. The former may be only marginally useful, but the latter is nigh-useless. Thus, I'd rather see people become better players before they become better characters - especially before they get great items and high levels that confer ego-boosting status. There's something about having more levels than someone that makes many people reluctant to take lower level chars seriously, regardless of the skill of the players involved.
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