Go-Go Khanjari Gender Bender

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
oteb
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Postby oteb » Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:41 pm

Birile please dont compare glaives to khanjaris. After glaives were put in how long did you wait to get a set of them? 3 months? Thats about how long i had to wait for first rare to even start khanjari quest.
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Postby Birile » Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:05 pm

oteb wrote:Birile please dont compare glaives to khanjaris. After glaives were put in how long did you wait to get a set of them? 3 months? Thats about how long i had to wait for first rare to even start khanjari quest.


Perhaps you failed to try to understand my point, Oteb. My point is that I think a weapon such as the bard glaive should be about as powerful as any weapon in the game is, whether it be made an ultra-difficult quest or not. Just because a quest is uber-difficult and/or uber-long (and it took me much longer than 3 months to get a set of glaives) doesn't mean that the end-result item--even if it's only a one-item yield--should be off the hook like the khanjari dagger. A quest doesn't have to offer up something this powerful to be fun or worth doing. Being a self-proclaimed quester, you of all people should know that.
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Postby oteb » Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:57 pm

i think someone who spent months questing (my guess average time of getting 2 daggers is bout 9? months of regular play)should be much more powerful than a random rogue who leveled with decent gear to 50 in two weeks. and still there are classes that are MUCH more powerful solo without even quest spells than khanjari rogues are right now. having an elementalist you should know that pretty well.
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Postby Birile » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:30 pm

oteb wrote:i think someone who spent months questing (my guess average time of getting 2 daggers is bout 9? months of regular play)should be much more powerful than a random rogue who leveled with decent gear to 50 in two weeks. and still there are classes that are MUCH more powerful solo without even quest spells than khanjari rogues are right now. having an elementalist you should know that pretty well.


Firstly, I don't disagree that a rogue who spends months questing should be more powerful than one that is leveled to 50 in a couple weeks. There are other ways to be more powerful than with a khanjari dagger. Not once did I even imply anything of the sort.

Secondly, since when is a class's ability to solo the penultimate gauge for a class being overpowered? Elementalists can solo quite well, that is true. Invokers aren't all that good at it. Yet which of THOSE two classes have you heard yammering for downgrading? Invokers are amazing at dishing out damage in zones. Elementalists? Ha. My point is, each has their niche and a class's ability to solo is not the only gauge of its power. But you already knew this.

Thirdly, I've seen firsthand what a khanjari rogue can do with a stoneskin and a haste embodiment cast on their ass. It's sick and no elementalist could come close to doing the same sort of things with those sole two spells along with all of their other spells combined in the short amount of time that a rogue can do with those two spells while wielding khanjaris (shout out to Lonel and his single khanjari for showing me this). If you wanna get technical and say that a rogue with those two spells cast on them isn't soloing, so be it. Let's switch it around and say an elementalist can't cast stoneskin or embodiments. How useful are they then? How good are they at soloing then? Much less capable of the feats afforded a rogue with a khanjari.
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:39 pm

Out of curiosity..

Who here that wants the enchanted khanjari dagger downgraded, has at least one they use?

Who here that wants the enchanted khanjari super proc downgraded, has one AND has a character that can take advantage of this proc?

Who here that doesn't have an enchanted khanjari dagger thinks it is fine?


I don't have a Khanjari dagger, or an enchanted one. I have no comment about it's power level as a weapon unto itself, until such time as I can sit behind the keys and see for myself and what it's capable of, and draw comparisons on other classes and weapon combinations I've played.
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Postby Birile » Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:11 pm

Sesexe wrote:Out of curiosity..

Who here that wants the enchanted khanjari dagger downgraded, has at least one they use?

Who here that wants the enchanted khanjari super proc downgraded, has one AND has a character that can take advantage of this proc?

Who here that doesn't have an enchanted khanjari dagger thinks it is fine?


I don't have a Khanjari dagger, or an enchanted one. I have no comment about it's power level as a weapon unto itself, until such time as I can sit behind the keys and see for myself and what it's capable of, and draw comparisons on other classes and weapon combinations I've played.


More importantly, Sexy, is that it has been said by people who HAVE a khanjari that it's at least a little overpowered.
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Postby oteb » Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:07 pm

Birile wrote:Secondly, since when is a class's ability to solo the penultimate gauge for a class being overpowered?


its just what khanjari does - improves solo/little group ability. Khanjaris dont make rogues get zoning groups (unlike unholy avenger). They dont make rogues sneak, hide,tag or cr better. Deal more damage yeah but thats not why rogues get groups. Of course i admit that khanajris improve survival rate but then good rogues dont die without them anyway (escape hide just a bit eariler). Since i got khanjaris i die way more often actually.. pushing it hoping for that proc that will save my ass

Birile wrote:Thirdly, I've seen firsthand what a khanjari rogue can do with a stoneskin and a haste embodiment cast on their ass. It's sick and no elementalist could come close to doing the same sort of things with those sole two spells along with all of their other spells combined in the short amount of time that a rogue can do with those two spells while wielding khanjaris (shout out to Lonel and his single khanjari for showing me this). If you wanna get technical and say that a rogue with those two spells cast on them isn't soloing, so be it.



true a rogue with elementalist spells can kill faster than elementalist solo. but a vaoker with mentalist spell can kill things faster too. actually a team of two can always kill things faster than you can solo.

Birile wrote:Let's switch it around and say an elementalist can't cast stoneskin or embodiments. How useful are they then? How good are they at soloing then? Much less capable of the feats afforded a rogue with a khanjari


uhmm i dont get that part. neither stone nor two of mbodies are quest spells for elementalists. do you mean like level 20 mentalist and comparing it to a rogue with khanjari?
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Postby Birile » Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:27 pm

oteb wrote:
Birile wrote:Let's switch it around and say an elementalist can't cast stoneskin or embodiments. How useful are they then? How good are they at soloing then? Much less capable of the feats afforded a rogue with a khanjari


uhmm i dont get that part. neither stone nor two of mbodies are quest spells for elementalists. do you mean like level 20 mentalist and comparing it to a rogue with khanjari?


I'm saying exactly what I said--take away the elementalist embodiments and stoneskin and an elementalist cannot do nearly the same things a rogue with a khanjari can. You were arguing the quest spells point earlier. And even if I were to touch the subject, there are mobs out there that a rogue can assassinate--without khanjari--that give "soloing" classes--even with all of their quested spells--a hard time. It all comes down to circumstance. Each class is better in certain instances than others. Rogues already have been argued to be overpowered even before khanjari was put back in.

But that matter, really, is moot because khanjari in any melee class's hands would be overpowered if there weren't class limitations on its proc. In other words, the overpowered dagger is the issue, not any one particular class.
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Postby oteb » Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:29 pm

Birile wrote:I'm saying exactly what I said--take away the elementalist embodiments and stoneskin and an elementalist cannot do nearly the same things a rogue with a khanjari can. You were arguing the quest spells point earlier.


quest spells for eles:
gate
relo
fire embody
earth embody

unless help files are very wrong that leaves water air and stone available at yer guild for a small fee.
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Postby Birile » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:15 pm

oteb wrote:
Birile wrote:I'm saying exactly what I said--take away the elementalist embodiments and stoneskin and an elementalist cannot do nearly the same things a rogue with a khanjari can. You were arguing the quest spells point earlier.


quest spells for eles:
gate
relo
fire embody
earth embody

unless help files are very wrong that leaves water air and stone available at yer guild for a small fee.


And again--I did not focus on quest spells simply because you suggested we focus on them in your post. Your one-track mind amazes me! You can try to set the rules for debate and box it in, but it's just not gonna work. :shock:
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Postby oteb » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:26 pm

then you just thoroughly missed my point. i was saying that ele without questing can do things rogue can not after doing one of more painful quests in this game twice. that is all. i didnt say anywhere that you focus on it . just a matter what some classes are given without much work:P
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Postby Ambar » Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:19 pm

how to go from khanjari to elementalist ..


ponder
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How to ruin the Khanjari dagger....

Postby Elscint » Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:59 pm

Well, rather than bitch about the dagger and argue over whether it should or shouldn't be downgraded I'll just address the issue as I did on GCC not too long ago..

This dagger could easily be 'ruined' with a simple upgrade...
the biggest complaint as I see it about this dagger is that it 'heals'
while it does not use the heal spell it does give a healing affect by vitting you and then wearing off very quickly...
simply make the vit last a good long time.. if you really want to 'ruin' the dagger make the vit outlast the hit and damage portions of it's proc...
if the vit lasted longer it would cease to 'heal' the rogue it would simply add some hitpoints for a period of time not add wear add wear as it does now producing a healing affect..

just my thoughts on how to actually fix the 'problem'

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Postby Sarell » Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:59 am

Birile, that was possibly the wierdest train of though I have ever nutted out, why exactly are we imagining that elementalists don't have two of their main spells in order to justify downgrading khanjari? An invoker witout offense wouldnt be very good either, nor would a warrior with no arms, or a ranger without trip, but that really isn't the point is it? :P

When you said,
"Weapons of this magnitude just let any old mediocre player do some
insane shit and come out looking like they know what they're doing. "

that would be the part to me that indicated you thought khanjaris made a rogue. They don't, firstly, I can't actually think of any crap rogues with khanjaris where you may have gathered your ideas, but secondly when I have lent mine to people to try out, they don't suddenly be better rogues, they might just get a few extra hits now and then in an exp group, yipee doo... They don't suddenly have mad skills and know every zone like the back of their hand, they cant drag more corpses, they cant even hide better.

Everyone is talking about soloing so here is my 2cents. Rogue, with a khanjari, can't solo diddly. They can solo a bit more than a rogue without a khanjari (not as much as one with a couple of 5 p potions tho). They suck at tanking and take more damage than they heal. Almost everyone else has either stone, heal or just detroys their target so fast it is worth doing a couple of runs.

Khanjari in zone groups is nice to the cleric who doesn't have to keep an eye out for ripostes. I never really die of ripostes I just disenage and bug the scaler/cleric. Since im not doing caster damage they usually just ignore me.

Khanjari in a horribly painful quest item requiring massive smitings that gives a small boost to one classes melee, something that is needed. It certainly isn't boost enough that would make a good leader pick one rogue over another - not that there is anything wrong with choosing the more experienced well equippped player. Rather than complain it is better than other weapons, think up some other ways to boost other classes? I think the best way to fix khanjari would be to make arrows return to rangers after game crashes, then wait a month and see what the top rangers are doing with archery. Taking away one well balanced thoughtful item isn't going to beef up another jealous class / player which is the perception many people are giving with their irrational rants. It's like saying, egads shamans get group heal which is good and clerics dont, better yank group heal!
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Postby Lenefir » Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:34 am

Sarell wrote:Everyone is talking about soloing so here is my 2cents. Rogue, with a khanjari, can't solo diddly. They can solo a bit more than a rogue without a khanjari (not as much as one with a couple of 5 p potions tho). They suck at tanking and take more damage than they heal.

Sorry, but I'm afraid I'm not going to agree with this one. I have seen what some rogues dual wielding khanjaris have tried to (successfully) do that they probably would not have done without those daggers, and it gets even more spectacular combined with stone, be it from spell, potion or eq, or any other defensive spell that they can get hold of. (I'm NOT saying that rogues shouldn't be able to solo mobs, I'm just stating that dual wielding khanjari they can solo more than without.)

And as for tanking... Has it been dual wielding rogues on a plevelled char with crappy defensive skills, or on a char that has been used for a long while with time to (mostly) max them?

Sarell wrote:Khanjari in zone groups is nice to the cleric who doesn't have to keep an eye out for ripostes. I never really die of ripostes I just disenage and bug the scaler/cleric. Since im not doing caster damage they usually just ignore me.

Not saying that the self-heal from the proc isn't nice, but could it be when and how you ask? If you're asking in the middle of a battle when a lot is going on, both clerics and enchanters are usually too busy with other stuff to prioritize a rogue asking for something, and if you ask over gsay too, it can quickly get lost in the battle spam.
If you want my personal meaning on that matter, a rogue asking for scale in the middle of a battle better have a very good reason for it. I can agree to casting stone and maybe scale if the battle is under control and it's safe to mem out, but I prefer casting scales on the classes that are supposed to take damage (aka meatshields) and have scales up for longer than it takes to cast and mem them, not get some damage once in a while from riposte and a failed dodge. Besides, my little rogue take more damage from area spells than from ripostes so I may be biased. Another thing, it annoys me a lot when rogues are whining for spells, and in the middle of a casting are fleeing out of battle or hiding too fast in order to lure the next mob . It doesn't exactly make me more amenable to casting spells on you when you whine later on. I fully understand crying out for globe, but when you already have whined and moaned about getting haste and then mindlessly autoassist on a shielded mob, then fleeing out before a globe can be casted, or again in the middle of casting one, you can blame a lot of what happens on yourself. But enough ranting from me on that matter.

Sarell wrote:Taking away one well balanced thoughtful item isn't going to beef up another jealous class / player which is the perception many people are giving with their irrational rants.

Thought it was the balance issue that was being discussed and argued over...
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Postby Sarell » Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:03 am

On the soloing thing Lenefir I am confused, my post says the same as your reply, rogues with khanjaris can solo a bit more than those without. However overall, any caster can out do a rogue. I still believe potions and poisons are a FAR greater weapon in the hands of a rogue than 2 khanjaris. What have you seen a rogue solo? My best is probably sundew and that was because I got lucky and had a pet tank. I have done the spiritist in DS using about a zillion dollars worth of major para poison heh. Both, nothing to do with khanjari, the haste sleeves helped immensely.

My rogue has max dodge and can't tank. Hitpoints are a serious drawback. I can get some exp smiting DS 2 person, as can other classes, however it usually ends in getting crit deaths on me.

With regards to rogues needing defensifve spells in combat, I still believe khanjari helps combat this. If a rogue is getting smitten and needs to disengage you state that you wouldn't scale them, personally I like to use scale on em as my chanter since it lasts so much longer (displace even better but less hits), khanjari combats this flaw in melee. On my dooger in regular middle ranger smiting he always required more healing than the tank. Was with troll freaks usually however.
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Postby Lenefir » Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:43 am

Sarell wrote:On the soloing thing Lenefir I am confused, my post says the same as your reply, rogues with khanjaris can solo a bit more than those without.

I kind of responded to:
Sarell wrote:Everyone is talking about soloing so here is my 2cents. Rogue, with a khanjari, can't solo diddly.


Sarell wrote:With regards to rogues needing defensifve spells in combat, I still believe khanjari helps combat this. If a rogue is getting smitten and needs to disengage you state that you wouldn't scale them, personally I like to use scale on em as my chanter since it lasts so much longer (displace even better but less hits), khanjari combats this flaw in melee.

Why did I state my reluctance to do it? Because if the mob is shielded, the stone or scale drops fast on tanks, and even faster on rogues. And even faster again if they are hasted. (*mutters about too-eager-to-haste-the-tank-necros*) If it is a pure warrior mob however, as I said, I'm biased, and my little rogue dodges most of the ripostes, so any stone I get is nice and welcomed, but nothing I have to cry out for. Though, it's completely another matter if the rogue is being sent out to lure mobs (if they can manage to hold back long enough to cast spells on them).
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Postby Sylvos » Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:27 pm

Ahem

Casters, Melee(Rogues)

Apples, Oranges

Defending melee's ability based around casters abilities is silly imho :P
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Postby kiryan » Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:36 pm

can't we all just agree that we want to see more weapons like khanjari for different classes, race, alignment, gender combination?

there is nothing a rogue can solo that a elementalist can't. There are lots of things a rogue can't solo that an elementalist can.

I like khanjari for giving rogues even more survivability in zone, I like khanjari because it seems to have doubled the damage output of a rogue. I want to see khanjariesque weapons for rangers that double their damag, I want to see happy fun tank oriented weapons for warriors.

the bard glaive doesn't deal as much damage or heal like khanjari, but bard glaive is an amazing weapon... the proc rate is exceptional on blind and slow, it can be dual wielded... Bards solo DS... not duo it with stone and blur, solo it. khanjari coudl've had slow or blind, abilities they already have through poison, but i like that it focused on damage and survivability... it compliments rogues just like bard glaive compliments bards.

Also, note that rogues who want to duo in DS need to have very very low AC -100+, its not khanjari on its own soloing ds for them.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:37 am

[quote='kiryan']can't we all just agree that we want to see more weapons like khanjari for different classes, race, alignment, gender combination? [/quote]

No. Until some major changes go in, I don't wanna see this mud get any easier than it already is for the end-game.
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Postby Sarell » Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:10 am

Agree with Kiryan on class comparison, when I say rogue with khanjari cant solo diddly, I mean compared to any caster.

I wouldn't say the top end of the game is easy personally Nurpy. Khanjari for instance is incredibly hard to do.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Sat Aug 14, 2004 4:08 pm

Sarell wrote:Agree with Kiryan on class comparison, when I say rogue with khanjari cant solo diddly, I mean compared to any caster.

I wouldn't say the top end of the game is easy personally Nurpy. Khanjari for instance is incredibly hard to do.


If it was incredibly hard there wouldn't be so many of the damn things.
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Postby Nekelet » Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:13 am

Lenefir wrote:(*mutters about too-eager-to-haste-the-tank-necros*)


Hey, I learned that lesson long ago. the tanks only get haste when I'm sure we're not facing a shield fight anytime soon. (sorry tanks)

Oh wait, I'm not a necro. Move along, nothing to see here. :P
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Postby Nekelet » Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:36 am

I think something like this might have been mentioned up-thread, but didn't see it in my scan through this time..

Yes... Khanjari is powerful.
Yes... a rogue dualing them is a force to be reckoned with.
But... to be really effective, the rogue needs some support from a stoner/haster, at least in my limited small group xp with the weapon. I really can't speak about true-solo rogues, but I have followed a dualing rogue around doing the stone thing and was most impressed. It should be noted that the rogue was working his a$$ off. This isn't a stand there and tank type of weapon, at least that I've seen.

Maybe... this is a taste of things to come.
Maybe... this is step one of the effort to bring melee back in line.
Maybe... instead of begging for a downgrade we should continue to be patient and see what happens next. Granted, things are slow, but I'm sure they're doing their best.

Rogues were thrown a bone - I say GOOD!. maybe the other puppies are next.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Aug 15, 2004 6:13 pm

Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:[quote='kiryan']can't we all just agree that we want to see more weapons like khanjari for different classes, race, alignment, gender combination?


No. Until some major changes go in, I don't wanna see this mud get any easier than it already is for the end-game.[/quote]

unless you have an alt, i highly doubt you have a good grasp on what the "end-game" is
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Sun Aug 15, 2004 7:13 pm

Dalar wrote:
Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:[quote='kiryan']can't we all just agree that we want to see more weapons like khanjari for different classes, race, alignment, gender combination?


No. Until some major changes go in, I don't wanna see this mud get any easier than it already is for the end-game.


unless you have an alt, i highly doubt you have a good grasp on what the "end-game" is[/quote]

Uh yeah I got several... but it doesn't really matter, since I don't have to prove myself or my credibility to you.

Anyway back on topic....khanjari is overpowered for female human rogues the end.
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Postby Sarell » Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:43 pm

I think you should prove your credibility to Dalar, Nurpy, since he has a female 50 rogue with khanjari and you claiming they are too powerful. Credibility is a good thing in feedback. To me your credibility is not carried in your statements, looks to me like you havn't played the high end game at all, your comments on the ease of khanjari quest make me think this. The only thing people have come up with as to why khanjari is too powerful is because a rogue with one can do more than a rogue without one? Well gear is like that, especially good gear, rogues can do even more with good armor class and poisons. No one has provided some solid examples of what they can do so well that a !khanjari rogue can't do. Some people have compared them to elementalists, im not sure still why. In terms of game / group balance rather than solo class comparison khanjaris don't do much at all.

I do agree with kifle that it made the game a bit human/female crazy. I think this is compounded with the neutral races agenda especially. But my hope is that there will be more weapons to come.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:51 pm

Nurpy has to prove his credibility because he stated that the end-game was too easy already?

You're kidding me, right?

If I'm standing on the sidewalk watching the ice cream man go by, his music's playing loud enough to bring Jack and Jill back from the dead, he's being mobbed by hordes of snot-nosed orclings, and I can watch him passing out frozen sugar-pops, then I don't have to have a commercial driver's license to know that yep, that's the ice cream man.

Here it is from a level 50 rogue... the end-game is too easy already! Everybody's buffed, everybody's decked, and the game holds far too few real threats anymore. That's an issue that's been bandied about for a long, long time already, and when one Elementalist basically started soloing the whole game, it seemed pretty much a given. The biggest threat in the entire game is Moritheil, any more.
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Postby Lenefir » Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:49 pm

Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:
Sarell wrote:I wouldn't say the top end of the game is easy personally Nurpy. Khanjari for instance is incredibly hard to do.

If it was incredibly hard there wouldn't be so many of the damn things.

A question: Is it hard because you have to camp and/or sneakhide to check for umtidumti rareloads in different mid- and high-level zones (which only needs a lot of boots/crashes), or is it hard because you have to fight groups of high-level mobs in high-end zones to win/get the majority of items (which needs a zone-sized group)?

Anyway, from my limited point of view, what I think most people that grumbles about the khanjari dagger has arguments about isn't really the procs, but how often it procs, and more so for certain race-gender-alignment combinations (it seems), which makes a class that some people already mutter is powerful, but restrained in what they can do from the amount of potions you can quaff and recharge time of items and skills, now basically is a self-sufficient healing and damage machine if they can limit the damage they take.

And, well, asking for logs of what a rogue with khanjaris can solo that one without can't... If they can solo it, nobody else saw it, and if you managed some increadible feat, I doubt you willingly would post that kind of log public so everybody certainly would scream out "downgrade!", and if you got company of someone else that logged what was happening, it's not technically solo, is it?
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Postby Jhorr » Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:00 pm

I think I agree with Kiryan here. The dagger is a step in the right direction. It's just plain fun. It really doesn't change zoning at all. Group leaders look for rogues when they need one, khanjari is not required. Besides, even a decked rogue needs caster backup to solo anything significant.

Now if you are jealous that your class isn't as much fun, that's another issue entirely.
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Postby Sarell » Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:21 am

Ashiwi credibility is a good thing to have behind you when making any statement. Your example is silly, but to retort, I wouldn't ask my pet cat if it knew if the ice cream man was coming up the street. It wouldn't know wtf I was talking about. Nurpy's statement about khanjari quest difficulty I think discredited his argument as it showed he doesn't actually know where most of the khanjari's in the game came from, not that there really are very many.

Anyhow, damn thast was well said imho Jhorr :) Concise pwns.

Lenefir you have to do all those things, several times. And sometimes you have to smite big things depending on when rare things loaded. And you have to smite very big things that have rare things.... it goes on....
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Postby moritheil » Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:09 pm

This thread is like an artist, a physicist, and a neurologist each arguing that their interpretation of what the color red is is the valid one.

Most people don't seem to have similar visions for what Toril should be like, or what issues should be addressed, or even what should or should not be possible for any given class. It is therefore expected that there are disagreements about khanjari and its effects and role in the world, when there is no agreement as to what the world itself is or should be. It's like arguing over the weight of an apple in a simulation when people can't even decide if there should be gravity or not.

Just an observation.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:35 pm

Your pet cat's probably never bought ice cream from the ice cream man... but Nurpy has mudded. Personally, I prefer silly over sinking to the level of some I've seen on this BBS. The issue over the end-game is one of those painfully obvious ones, and also what Nurpy was being called on.

Sure, the khanjari quest is difficult, but as far as I can tell, every combination of race, class and gender has to go through the same steps. I'm not on a crusade to delete the khanjari, or to downgrade it to uselessness. I think the weapon is a work of art, and I love that the proc is different for different people using it. The issue is that the proc is geared towards a particular combination which already had plenty of bonuses, which begs the question of why the staff would feel compelled to enhance it so greatly for that particular combination when they already know there's an imbalance in existance. Yes, I understand the RP reasons in the story behind it, but those could have easily been rewritten to favor male gnome rogues... which I would have been all for.
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Postby Grizz » Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:11 pm

So is this really just a sexism issue? Granted the majority of gamers, in any game, tend to be male. Are you really that upset that the number of Mangina's went up? Are you attributing the influx of people wanting to play a female character solely because of one item? There are many other reasons why men play women in these games. Some do it because they want to be perceived differently. Others do it as to better trick the gullable men into giving them free loots. Others, well just seem to like it more (Varia comes to mind).
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Postby Sarell » Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:57 am

The weapon itself I am fine with also. I agree however that bias to a race/class/gender combo on a weapon of this magnitude does require a second glance. I think the fact that the proc is linked to the class that can play evil / good is a little eyebrow raising. I do think a lot of thought went into this weapon however and am still of the belief that while khanjari benefits female human evils or the like the most, they are still not the best rogue race. My dooger totally outclasses my human in terms of zoning / smiting, and I see people playing their dwarfs over their humans aswell.

Khanjari is by far the cream of the rogue weapons, no matter the race or gender it is on. I too at times am disturbed by playing a race/gender combo just in the name of more power, but it is just a game. I'm not really a cold blooded killer irl either but hey, it's just a game. In summary I think the khanjari is cool all round and not a game/character breaker at all. In conclusion I can't wait to see all the !evil|female|human|rogue items that spiteful zonemakers conjure up! :9
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Postby Dalar » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:14 am

After doing Tiamat and seeing all of the rogues evil female human... pretty sure the procs are overpowered.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ragorn » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:00 am

Three years... nice one, Mori.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:19 am

Ragorn wrote:Three years... nice one, Mori.


And it wasn't even Mori, it was Dartan.
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:43 pm

And. . .three years later, khanji is still ultra-gay! Wooot
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:10 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:And it wasn't even Mori, it was Dartan.

I was making a funny.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:30 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Arilin Nydelahar wrote:And it wasn't even Mori, it was Dartan.

I was making a funny.


I was pointing out the obvious.
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Postby Birile » Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:59 pm

Shevarash wrote:Ok. Some of you think its overpowered, I got it - I'll think about it and review it.


Three years later--what were your findings when you reviewed this, Shev?

Like it or not--whether or not you argue that the intricacies of the proc haven't been fully discerned... and whether or not you believe EFHRs are given an unfair advantage over other races or that the khanjari is simply making up for what a human female rogue lacks when compared with other races... I would humbly point out that the number of EFHRs compared to non-EFH rogues on this mud is very out of whack. Not only has it unbalanced the rogue class but has also detracted from much of the RP value in the class. There's simply little to no variety. Also of note, I've seen one very prominent EFHR laugh at non-EFH rogues and say things like, "Why bother being a rogue if you're not an EFHR?" (and similar comments--and no, I'm pretty certain these aren't friendly jabs) Is that really the attitude we want to cultivate on TorilMUD?

I'm sure it was unintentional on your part when the item was updated/new quest was put into the game, but there ya have it.

And there's no escaping the fact that this was all brought about by one item. I don't think it's done the MUD much good.

The quest and item have been in the game now for about four years (correct me if I'm wrong!). If this was evaluated back in 2004 and justification was found to keep it as it was, perhaps this can be re-evaluated given what's transpired with rogues over the past three years?
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Postby Ghimok » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:16 pm

I have a level 50 warrior that's fairly well decked out whether I want to go with a tank(hp/ac) mode or hitter mode. Using hitter mode as an example I can achieve -130 AC without any spells, 25/55 hit/dam, perm haste from tia armor, inability to be bashed for more than 1 round from stability boots, and ability to vamp 5 hps per attack (3 attacks per round) from scepter of valhalla also a tia item.

Without any protective spells or healing I can tank a mob only slightly better than a hasted efhr dualing 2 khanjari daggers and similar damroll due to the vit proc healing.

With dragonscales and no healing versus a single mob, the results will be about even as far as tanking goes.

Versus multiple mobs is about the only time the warrior actually shines. With my current hoard of 3 warrior tiamat items I can quite easily tank 7-10 mobs in a full-group enviroment, whereas a rogue would get splattered.

However, using the single mob instance, say for example exping or "twinking" something where you have an enchanter/efhr combo or an enchanter/Dlur combo, the ehfr will get the job done faster every single time. If you apply this specifically to exping it's hands down better to exp as a rogue because they not only do more damage, but they also heal themselves with the khanjari vit proc at a much faster rate than my piddly tiamat items allow.

I guess overall my point is that khanjari shouldn't have the vit proc at all, and it should proc at the same rate for all races. I can't believe that it was considered "bug abuse" to be able to have the tia scepter in both vamp mode and berserker fury before the "bug" was fixed, yet Khanjari daggers get both offensive and defensive procs all the time without having to choose one or the other. Go figure.

If you aren't going to take khanjari daggers down a notch, at least lower the threshold where valhalla scepter procs really kick in. I've noticed that it hardly procs at all (other than the base hp vamp or haste depending on mode) unless I'm fighting at least 5 mobs. It doesn't seem to even go crazy unless your fighting close to 8 mobs. From what I'm aware of the point of diminishing returns on warrior defensive skills is around 3-4 mobs (I say 5, but I've been told 3-4 by people who spend more time thinking about it than I do). Why not make it 4 mobs before it starts doing the stuff that spams the group?

Also, please give warriors spellcast teleport skill. Thank you.
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Postby muxxissinix » Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:27 pm

There is a lot of things more importants to do than go play downgrade others classes.

I was the same as you when i didn't have 2 khanjaris and had my rogue level 50 and was asked if i had khanjaris before they invited me to join to a zone.

If you play a rogue then quest khanjaris or you aren't playing your class at full potential, if daggers proc more on EFHR then rol one.

Who will play a spellcaster and don't quest his spells ?

Also is not a good thing point others and say downgrade this or that stuff because you don't have it, maybe it will backfire your favorite class :P.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:22 pm

aww never mind, hehe
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Postby Disoputlip » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:26 pm

I think one of the problems with the khanjari was that it wasn't given a new OBJ.

If we only talked about new khanjaries then having them would be considered more l33t. Almost like Tia eq.

Not that it can be changed now. But I guess some gods have learned something.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:32 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
Arilin Nydelahar wrote:And it wasn't even Mori, it was Dartan.

I was making a funny.


I was pointing out the obvious.


Dartan wrote:I use to comment on alot of things and flamewars. Mori was the one who resurrected and stuff.


In this thread, I commented on a nascent flamewar, and Dartan ressed.

</derail>

I think the main reason people are fixated on comparing things is the lack of challenge that was brought up previously.
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Postby loshaenar » Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:04 am

actually what's funny for me, is that..on the one hand some of you have said, don't bitch about other classes, items etc. or yours could be nerfed.

If this post has shown anything, it's that 3 years down the track, so many of us that are still here have actually stopped playing our other classes so much and made the meal ticket character.... hey more power to you..


when i quest my mage staff which makes me sneak, steal, heal and outdamage rogues then i'll be right there to roll my neutral male gnome enchanter. Until then, at least we always have nerox to solochant tia..

i say we go for 12 efhr's next run btw... way too much diversity as it stands currently.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:10 am

muxxissinix wrote:If you play a rogue then quest khanjaris or you aren't playing your class at full potential, if daggers proc more on EFHR then rol one.

Who will play a spellcaster and don't quest his spells ?


All these years later, and I STILL say this isn't about the khanjari all on its own.

But you DID do a marvelous job of supporting one of the points behind the original post. Thank you.

Why wouldn't a rogue quest something fundamental to her class? That would be silly, at best.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:28 pm

Yes lets all roll EFHR's .. screw all the talented grey elves and dwarves out there .. as I recall Ross had to set aside Pava who dealt FAR more damage to roll up Teba and the others

SKILL should make the class .. not a weapon .. hehe

Edit: was waiting for kelly's post before i gave my input, "snoogles elfie dear"
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