Goodrace and Evilrace only items

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Delmair Aamoren
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Goodrace and Evilrace only items

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:28 pm

How silly is this? how in the hell would an item know what race i was?

The obvious answer: "magic!"

Well, i for one don't buy it. I can see intelligent weapons and whatnot
choosing their wielder and all that, but your average item just isn't
that smart. What i can understand is due to either strict racial or
alignment based restrictions, some items being alignment restricted.
For instance, gossamer wings of a faerie dragon shouldn't be worn
by a good elf. I don't see one good reason why there should be
so many evilrace/goodrace only items.

One example of a silly goodrace only item are the ice bear boots.
Yes, the quest can ONLY be done in a town that doesn't allow evilraces.
a) doesn't mean that evilraces can't get in. and b) what would realistically
prevent them from hiring someone to get them for them? there is nothing
keeping an evilrace from just putting those same boots on their feet.
An example of an evilrace item for goodies. The broadsword of dancing
shadows, or even shadowdragon scale armor. What is the big deal?
Hell, last i checked, the amulet of Lloth wasn't evilrace only, yet was
from an evilrace town quest, and was required for a quest that has
a !evilrace item or two for a reward! I say cut the crap with most of these
broad racially restricted items. Moonblades are one story, generic other
stuff is something completely different.


Delmair Aamoren
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Postby Ambar » Sun Aug 15, 2004 10:23 am

I suppose you want every character to look the same? wear the same eq? dunno thats how i see it at 6AM on a friggin sunday (damn shift change)

ice bears arent the only race restricted item .. i think across the board there are a lot ..

the cleric hoods ... 1 for evil 1 for goodie .. shrug
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:05 pm

I don't recall saying that ice bears were the only race restricted item.
They were merely my example. Yes, there seem to be a near equal
number, but equality isn't my concern here. My concern is why this flag
is so widely used. As described above i can see a few reasons for it, but
still don't understand why it is so common.

Yes, this may make some people look more alike at the higher levels, but
during the lower levels, of course the evils are going to wear what is
easiest for them to get, and the goodies will wear what is easy for them.
I suppose the only thing that opening up these possibly hastily flagged
items would only allow a broader selection for style. And as we all know,
i like style!

And before any of you go spoutin this "oh, he just got an item he can't
use because of some racial restriction blah blah blah blah" this is
definately not the case. This is merely a mix of logical obeservation,
and, as stated above, looking for a broader selection for style.
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Postby Ambar » Sun Aug 15, 2004 5:37 pm

next ....
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Postby Disoputlip » Sun Aug 15, 2004 10:33 pm

Delmair Aamoren wrote:And before any of you go spoutin this "oh, he just got an item he can't
use because of some racial restriction blah blah blah blah" this is
definately not the case. This is merely a mix of logical obeservation,
and, as stated above, looking for a broader selection for style.



What item did you get?
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:17 am

Disoputlip wrote:
Delmair Aamoren wrote:And before any of you go spoutin this "oh, he just got an item he can't
use because of some racial restriction blah blah blah blah" this is
definately not the case. This is merely a mix of logical obeservation,
and, as stated above, looking for a broader selection for style.



What item did you get?



Eat meh.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:13 am

my money is on pestilence
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:03 pm

Ok wankers. as stated above, i don't have anything that i can't use. Nor
do i really want any of it. Pestilence wouldn't fit my color scheme anyway.
So you can all drop the highschool shit anytime now... *bird*
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:15 pm

Delmair Aamoren wrote:Ok wankers. as stated above, i don't have anything that i can't use. Nor
do i really want any of it. Pestilence wouldn't fit my color scheme anyway.
So you can all drop the highschool shit anytime now... *bird*

Sounds like sour grapes for sure.
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Re: Goodrace and Evilrace only items

Postby moritheil » Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:59 am

Delmair Aamoren wrote:How silly is this? how in the hell would an item know what race i was?

The obvious answer: "magic!"

Well, i for one don't buy it. I can see intelligent weapons and whatnot
choosing their wielder and all that, but your average item just isn't
that smart. What i can understand is due to either strict racial or
alignment based restrictions, some items being alignment restricted.
For instance, gossamer wings of a faerie dragon shouldn't be worn
by a good elf. I don't see one good reason why there should be
so many evilrace/goodrace only items.

One example of a silly goodrace only item are the ice bear boots.
Yes, the quest can ONLY be done in a town that doesn't allow evilraces.
a) doesn't mean that evilraces can't get in. and b) what would realistically
prevent them from hiring someone to get them for them? there is nothing
keeping an evilrace from just putting those same boots on their feet.
An example of an evilrace item for goodies. The broadsword of dancing
shadows, or even shadowdragon scale armor. What is the big deal?
Hell, last i checked, the amulet of Lloth wasn't evilrace only, yet was
from an evilrace town quest, and was required for a quest that has
a !evilrace item or two for a reward! I say cut the crap with most of these
broad racially restricted items. Moonblades are one story, generic other
stuff is something completely different.


Delmair Aamoren
Dignitas of the Spur Lords


You want a serious answer? Okay, but there's no guarantee it will make sense to you.

There have to be more of them in circulation, the more restricted they are, to achieve the same effect amongst the populace.

Put differently, with increasingly restricted items, more different item types can be made without flooding the market with widely available eq. For example, take the Brass rings. One got downgraded and the other didn't. Why? The one that didn't get downgraded is mage only, and hence not that valuable or overpowered, whereas the other one was usable by all and thus begging for a downgrade.

Think about it another way: if you play five characters and the same ring can be worn on all five, in theory you only need one pair of rings (maybe two if you want a backup set). This frees you up to trade up with any extra rings to get a very good pair of rings. One good set of rings means that all five characters gain in power, if you swap eq when you play them (and why wouldn't you? It's not like the other character can be logged in in the meantime.) On the other hand, if each of those characters has to have its own rings, the characters will get more powerful much more slowly, as each one has to be tended to separately.

So you could say there are economic reasons for such limitations.
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Postby Grizz » Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:44 pm

I think that the restriction for Race should be reserved for big items that have been created for a single race and not a broad blanket of races. Like Rock Crusher is (or was I don't know if it has changed) Dwarf only and not Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Halfling only. It has to be an item that has some history with that race that makes sense. It wouldn't make sense for a Gnome item to be a Bow or a Tower shield but it would make sense for it to be a Special spellbook or something of the like. Maybe not the best example but you should get the gist of what I mean.
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Delmair Aamoren
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Re: Goodrace and Evilrace only items

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:54 pm

moritheil wrote:For example, take the Brass rings. One got downgraded and the other didn't. Why? The one that didn't get downgraded is mage only, and hence not that valuable or overpowered, whereas the other one was usable by all and thus begging for a downgrade.


Umm, both were downgraded, actually. But thanks for trying.
And also, i don't buy it that its something that is meant to inconvenience
character equipment sharing. The fact that the only town you could
possibly do this in would be BG oh, or VT, makes it rather difficult
to boot. Heck, i have a couple chars, and don't bother sharing eq because
it's too difficult to keep track of who has what of who's and blah. They
are all on the goodie side, bar one who is rather low level, but still...

But, you might be onto something with this line moritheil. With more
restrictions, one accumulates more "points" for item creation. So now
that "item X" is restricted to lets say, troll only, you can make it that
much more powerful! So when did it become ok to sacrifice more
realism for higher stats? *frown*

I see that Grizz at least understands what i am getting at. The broad
racial restriction is used a bit too much imho.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:00 pm

as far as i've heard the EQ calculator doesn't take into account what classes cant use an item, only what classes can use an item.

So no, the ele ring isn't extra nice compared to amy because its mage only, its that way cuz the person who calcd and redid the points for it gave more point love to ele ring.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Sservis » Sat Aug 21, 2004 5:25 pm

I must say that I agree. I'd like to see more use of align flags, and less use of race flags. It is possible for an evil race to go neutral or even good [hell nothing important for a yuanti [didn't check all the guildmasters] in dk cares if you're good aligned]. Make the gear set you choose to pigeon hole yourself into seperate from the side of the mud that you choose to play [or implement race wars and make which side you're on really matter]. It also makes one less factor to worry about when balancing things.

Alternitively, put in a quests for each anti good/evil race item to allow flipping of the bits like the holy/unholy sprinkler swap quests.
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Postby Gura » Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:37 pm

only issue with race flagged eq i have is in a zone like BC. all eq received is either !goodrace or !evilrace....since evils can group with neutrals, neutrals are stuck bidding on a trade item, a potion or a really spanky item for an alt. doesnt make sense to me.
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