Why are there no racial bonuses for wisdom except for yuan?

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Why are there no racial bonuses for wisdom except for yuan?

Postby Dalar » Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:20 am

Hi!
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Re: Why are there no racial bonuses for wisdom except for yu

Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:28 am

Explain a little more about "bonuses". I know they have highest racial wis for sure.

EDIT: 2nd highest
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Postby Dalar » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:25 pm

all other races don't have racial wisdom bonus or modifier or whatever
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Xisiqomelir » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:51 pm

I guess it's because otherwise they are a truly crappy race?

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Postby kiryan » Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:47 pm

grey elves have about 50% more intelligent than humans on a scale where a human has 100 an elf has 150... thats an example of a bonus. There are several races that have a INT "bonus".

Dartan is pointing out that only yuanti have a wisdom bonus, no othe race has a wisdom bonus (however ogre and troll have a wisdom penalty).

Yuanti were somewhat recently upgrade significantly. This made them a much better race than they were before. However, the yuanti race will always need to be re-evaulated for balance as eq continues to escalate... for example when they were tweaked at the beginning of the wipe, 2 dam was the max possible in any eq slot, now we have 3 dam and i wouldnt be surprised if eventually we have 4 dam under the "objective" eq point system. Since yuanti lose 4 slots eq escalation hits them hard (they do get a bonus tail slot which can be used to minimize the escalation).

As it stands, I'd say Yuanti are a good race to play now for several classes, melee being classes your most likely to be disappointed playing later.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:06 am

Yuan are for people who hate ultra.

(Illithids had higher WIS when I stopped playing, did that change?)
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Postby Sarell » Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:31 am

I don't think yuan are penalised for missing slots much at all now. Tail items are awesome. I havn't seen any 65HP earrings, boots or leggings kicking around.
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Postby Ambar » Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:52 am

i think sservis mentioned having innate -150 AC with scaleskin ...

the wisdom bonus is just too high and too obvious i think ... tone it down a bit ... when a snake and a duergar have the same amount of folks on a vit list, both being same level, both start at same time .. snake finishes three people ahead of the duergar (or so cause I really didnt count that seriously)



in fact why play any other class for evil cleric anymore?
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Postby Sservis » Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:58 pm

Ambar wrote:i think sservis mentioned having innate -150 AC with scaleskin ...

the wisdom bonus is just too high and too obvious i think ... tone it down a bit ... when a snake and a duergar have the same amount of folks on a vit list, both being same level, both start at same time .. snake finishes three people ahead of the duergar (or so cause I really didnt count that seriously)



in fact why play any other class for evil cleric anymore?


yuan have the same bonus to wis that elves have to int. doesn't seem out of line. the question why no one else has wis better than human average is a good one.

On the -150 ac. I've never said I have -150 ac [mine is something different]. yuan just have the same agi as elves.
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Postby Ambar » Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:52 pm

Sservis wrote:On the -150 ac. I've never said I have -150 ac [mine is something different].



ack was mistaken then .. what is *yours* then .. or is this something i dont EVEN want to ask :P
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:38 pm

Ambar wrote:in fact why play any other class for evil cleric anymore?


Duergar = higher str + con
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Postby Ambar » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:12 am

Xisiqomelir wrote:
Ambar wrote:in fact why play any other class for evil cleric anymore?


Duergar = higher str + con



Sorry .. I roll a high con on all my chars and a decent strength .. the con/strength wouldnt make me as happy on a clerc as near insta cast ... I have 2 grey elf mages and a drow elf mage ... their int bonus(?) still doesnt compare to snake wisdom bonus (from what i have SEEN in zones .. i dont have a snake cleric ... just the lvl 50 duergar and the lvl 41 grey elf ...)
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Postby Sservis » Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:50 pm

Ambar wrote:
Xisiqomelir wrote:
Ambar wrote:in fact why play any other class for evil cleric anymore?


Duergar = higher str + con



Sorry .. I roll a high con on all my chars and a decent strength .. the con/strength wouldnt make me as happy on a clerc as near insta cast ... I have 2 grey elf mages and a drow elf mage ... their int bonus(?) still doesnt compare to snake wisdom bonus (from what i have SEEN in zones .. i dont have a snake cleric ... just the lvl 50 duergar and the lvl 41 grey elf ...)


They have the same bonus to wis as drow/grey have to int. The exact same [at least that's what my tests reveal]. This issue is that there are no races in between human and them. gnomes and yuan have half the int bonus of elves, so the gap doesn't seem as big. 4 slots really hurts at the top end Ambar. esp as eq keeps getting better and better, yuan innates aren't improviing

side note:
yuan vs others balance is much like spell vs melee balance. the one has abilities that are fairly nondependant on eq, the other depends heavily on eq. changes in what is possible eq wise shift the balance one way or the other. Last I checked ressing evil race clerics had more duergar [13] than drow [12] than yuan [9]. This was post Zobex's res. I think llaalna and nurris should be added to my list, but it's still yuan lagging the field. Hardly overpowered if players prefer other races.
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Postby fotex » Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:26 am

So how fast does a lvl50 yuan-ti cleric with maxwis mem a full heal anyway? 5 seconds? 6 seconds? (before the meditate kicks in)
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:15 pm

Sservis, who are the 13 duergar ressers?
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Postby kiryan » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:30 pm

Ambar wrote:i think sservis mentioned having innate -150 AC with scaleskin ...

the wisdom bonus is just too high and too obvious i think ... tone it down a bit ... when a snake and a duergar have the same amount of folks on a vit list, both being same level, both start at same time .. snake finishes three people ahead of the duergar (or so cause I really didnt count that seriously)

in fact why play any other class for evil cleric anymore?


There never was a reason to play a cleric that sometimes can not heal because they are blind.

elf invokers mem much faster than human invokers, do we need to reduce the elf int bonus? And I don't see how wisdom affects how fast you vit, spell stars aren't variable with int/wis so were talking QC time which is int or nothing at 50... Unless of course you only mem 1 or 2 vits for your 6-7 vit targets. Regardless, seems a silly argument.

As far as the wisdom bonus goes, the only case I can see for reducing or eliminating it is that there is nothing in between human and yuanti while on the Int side of things you have multiple races with varying degrees of int.

Personally, I say leave it alone. Yuanti arent the suckers they used to be, but eq escalation continues.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:34 pm

Ambar wrote:
Xisiqomelir wrote:
Ambar wrote:in fact why play any other class for evil cleric anymore?


Duergar = higher str + con



Sorry .. I roll a high con on all my chars and a decent strength .. the con/strength wouldnt make me as happy on a clerc as near insta cast ... I have 2 grey elf mages and a drow elf mage ... their int bonus(?) still doesnt compare to snake wisdom bonus (from what i have SEEN in zones .. i dont have a snake cleric ... just the lvl 50 duergar and the lvl 41 grey elf ...)


Clerics are interesting in they rely on their lower circle spells (6th and 7th) instead of thier 9/10th circle spells. I hope your comparing difference in mem times at the same circle.

I find that you easily can get a 1.5 to 2 second gain on 10th circle (scales) as an elf enchanter over a human enchanter. Thats pretty damn big int bonus imo.
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Postby Sservis » Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:06 am

Sesexe wrote:Sservis, who are the 13 duergar ressers?


added Nurris and Llaalna to the lists as I think they both have res. if I'm missing a cleric let my know.

current count is 13, 13, 10 duergar, drow, yuan
duergar

1 Zipaladok,
2 Baldorak,
3 Vjaerrak,
4 Kunrikan,
5 Lucuduzur,
6 Baikalisan,
7 Dosarilog,
8 Hamibugan,
9 Donuktanam,
10 Karikhan,
11 Radiromis,
12 Disoputlip,
13 Lukaprazac


drow

1 Narzon,
2 Noliez,
3 Elet,
4 Talkryz,
5 Zajan,
6 Zellin,
7 Ellana,
8 Bizal,
9 Kazad,
10 Silvine,
11 Katira,
12 Zobex
13 Llaalna

yuan

1 Yssilk,
2 Nissak,
3 Syssok,
4 Myrsss,
5 Ssifu,
6 Ssassin,
7 Sservis,
8 Miseassa,
9 Talassa,
10 Nurris
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:08 am

Sservis wrote:3 Vjaerrak
13 Lukaprazac

4 Talkryz
8 Miseassa


Oh shit, sservis is like the bomb
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Postby kiryan » Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:28 pm

god damn, that list is even in the order in which they got ress too if im not mistaken.

sservis is so hard core he makes my penis hurt.
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Postby Sservis » Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:52 am

kiryan wrote:god damn, that list is even in the order in which they got ress too if im not mistaken.

sservis is so hard core he makes my penis hurt.


No Todrael is the bomb. It's his list. Well except for those after myself that I've kept track of.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:52 am

To answer the question in the title: There aren't any other races for which it would be appropriate, or which require it. If you have suggestions for some, feel free to offer them.
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Postby rylan » Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:53 am

Human, just cuz it'll piss off all the dwarves :P
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Postby Dalar » Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:48 am

How about to vary the player classes? Kind of like how some pick grey for the best int, gnome for a good combo of int/con, and human for well, to group with evilraces.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:27 am

Dalar wrote:How about to vary the player classes?


Yuan WIS is a factor in picking evil clerics. I don't think evil clerics are so very homogenous.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:55 pm

Yuanti 150
Dwarves 125
Duegar 120
Elves 115
Half-Elf 105
Barbarian 105
Gnome 90
Halfling 80
Troll 70
Ogre 60

Course humans get the short end of the stick, but who really cares they can group with evils!

Orc can stay at 100 since they are the evil race humans even though barbarians get a bonus

The dwarf vs elf cleric will still be debatable and the humans wont disappear.

Yuanti vs Duegar will get closer

My only worry is Dwarves may need to give up some agility or something for stat balance and elves may want to give up some int to have a more balanced int vs wisdom.[/quote]
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Postby rylan » Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:39 pm

Heh if humans suddenly have another minus like having wis below the other cleric type races I'm retiring and playing my alts. I think humans would dissapear. Ability to group with evils isn't much of a benefit, if any. Wording to WD isn't worth a pray time penalty along with lower con, and str than dwarf.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:04 am

was there ever a reason to play a human cleric?

Dwarves have more hps, str and are infra (can check MH and IC rares)

Elves have sneak, better agility and infra (can check EM rares)

Gnomes have similar hps better agility and infra
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Postby rylan » Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:32 am

So why do they need another bonus?
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Postby kiryan » Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:50 am

because elves and dwarves are known in the fantasy genre for being wiser than human?

So the races have further uniqueness?

So yuanti wis bonus isn't so drastically out of the norm?
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:46 am

I just don't get what the big deal is about only yuan having a wis bonus.

Can't we nit pick some other minute part of the game? This one seems really weak.
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Postby rylan » Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:59 pm

Agree
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Postby kiryan » Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:24 pm

what's wrong with adding some more distinctness to some of the races?
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Postby rylan » Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:58 pm

Becasue I think there already is plenty. How many more benefits do you wan tto give out to other races? Might as well remove human from the race selection list during character generation if everything else is better.
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Human

Postby Klandal » Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:21 pm

That's already the way it is. Given a specific class there is a better race to maximize class stat strengths and minimize negligible ones. The only reason to be human is for RP and cross-racewars grouping.

I think people are just so used to not having a priest's prime stat bonus that they don't see why it would be beneificial. What would the players say if gnomes were the SOLE race with intelligence bonus modifier? Other goodie int casters would have more reason to play them and evil int casters would be SoL in regards to having an int bonus mage class. This is the current situation with the wis bonus; only snakes have it, goodies don't even have an option to pick a race with wis bonus for their priest.

I don't know if I entirely agree with Kiryan's ranking of wis bonuses per race, but I feel other races should be addressed in regards to getting a wisdom modifier.
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Re: Human

Postby Birile » Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:03 pm

Klandal wrote:What would the players say if gnomes were the SOLE race with intelligence bonus modifier? Other goodie int casters would have more reason to play them and evil int casters would be SoL in regards to having an int bonus mage class. This is the current situation with the wis bonus; only snakes have it, goodies don't even have an option to pick a race with wis bonus for their priest.


Klandal, you forgot to mention how goodies don't have NEGATIVE modifiers to their wisdom like TWO of the evilrace races have. I'm sure it was just a simple oversight on your part. One beneficially modified race, two negatively modified races... hell, ogres are just as stupid as yuan-ti are smart. Try one on for size, you will thank your lucky stars for you unmodified goodie cleric-type class. Somehow that's been overlooked in this little discussion. :roll:
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Birile

Postby Klandal » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:18 am

Klandal, you forgot to mention how goodies don't have NEGATIVE modifiers to their wisdom like TWO of the evilrace races have. I'm sure it was just a simple oversight on your part.


Actually, TWO of the goodrace races have NEGATIVE wisdom modifiers. THREE evilrace races have NEGATIVE wisdom modifiers and TWO have POSITIVE wisdom modifiers. I'm sure it was just a simple oversight on your part.

One beneficially modified race, two negatively modified races... hell, ogres are just as stupid as yuan-ti are smart. Try one on for size, you will thank your lucky stars for you unmodified goodie cleric-type class. Somehow that's been overlooked in this little discussion. :roll:


Technically two beneficially modified races, three negatively modified races are available on the evilrace side. My point is: how many people roll troll/ogre priests? They're not even offered for cleric/druid. The only priest class they're offered for is shaman, which they have a choice to pick a race that has NO negative widsom modifier. Somehow that's been overlooked in this little discussion. :roll:
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Re: Birile

Postby Xisiqomelir » Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:06 am

So which other goodrace would you like to take the hit?
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Hit

Postby Klandal » Sat Oct 02, 2004 4:19 pm

So which other goodrace would you like to take the hit?


I'm sure you meant: So which other goodrace would you like to that the hit, and which two goodraces would you like to get an increase?
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Postby Hyldryn » Sat Oct 02, 2004 4:24 pm

Obviously reduce the wis of halflings.
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zot! yer ded

Postby Gukov » Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:11 am

Bump! Yuan-ti shamans, please! :-D

As it is now you can either play a dumb race shaman or a boring human-esque race... I'm pretty sure if this option was enabled there would likely be a nice little boost to the evil pbase, especially in the realm of ghealing where we are generally lacking atm.

Mostly just my 2cents. Please feel free to bitch and whine about how this would marginalize everything that is good and pure below.
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:30 am

Orc praytime is same as barbs :( Unless that's what you mean by humanesque. Since barbs are only option for goodies..*sigh*

Goodie side needs a higher wisdom race like yuanti. Odd that each goodie is same, save gnome, and the extra-dumb halflings.
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Postby Lilira » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:44 am

Barbarians should have high wisdom.. they may lack in brains at times but they have PLENTY of common sense.

Just my 2c.
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Postby Latreg » Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:39 pm

hhmm you'd think drow would get a bonus for wis, or are they on par with grey elves? What other race should get a wis bonus? If human is the standard to which all others are compared, most fall below.

as for Yuan-ti find me some protection gear that I can use and not have to loose a bunch of hit points and saves. That nice tail item with the hps isn't much good in certain cases if you need pff like for fire plane.
So I guess don't pick apart the class without addressing all the problems with it. I find it funny that with the current state of the pbase people are complaining about such things.
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Postby Latreg » Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:51 pm

Sarell wrote:I don't think yuan are penalised for missing slots much at all now. Tail items are awesome. I havn't seen any 65HP earrings, boots or leggings kicking around.


can I have one of those 65 hp tail items? Don't think I've seen one yet. You are not comparing it properly, the tail is supose to "replace" the 2 ear,leg and feet slots. I don't think it would be all that difficult to get 65 total hps with 2 earrings,leggings and boots. Not to mention any protections -saves etc that the items in those slots may have.
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Postby Elet » Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:08 am

Latreg wrote:
Sarell wrote:I don't think yuan are penalised for missing slots much at all now. Tail items are awesome. I havn't seen any 65HP earrings, boots or leggings kicking around.


can I have one of those 65 hp tail items? Don't think I've seen one yet. You are not comparing it properly, the tail is supose to "replace" the 2 ear,leg and feet slots. I don't think it would be all that difficult to get 65 total hps with 2 earrings,leggings and boots. Not to mention any protections -saves etc that the items in those slots may have.


bro there's 1 tail ring from avernus (rare) that gives you 75hp.

well im not sure if 2 earring + leggings + boots can match up with that amount.. :)

my 1.5 cents
Lahgen
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Postby Lahgen » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:19 pm

Ambar wrote:in fact why play any other class for evil cleric anymore?


I agree. That's why all mages on the goodrace side are elves.

Oh wait...
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Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:10 pm

Lahgen wrote:
Ambar wrote:in fact why play any other class for evil cleric anymore?


I agree. That's why all mages on the goodrace side are elves.

Oh wait...



Way to respond to a comment nearly 2 years old. You win!
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Lilira
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Postby Lilira » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:20 pm

Lahgen wrote:
Ambar wrote:in fact why play any other class for evil cleric anymore?


I agree. That's why all mages on the goodrace side are elves.

Oh wait...


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Eya rolls her eyes.

Eya sez "Damn blind men."
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
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Latreg
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Postby Latreg » Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:07 pm

Elet wrote:bro there's 1 tail ring from avernus (rare) that gives you 75hp.

well im not sure if 2 earring + leggings + boots can match up with that amount.. :)

my 1.5 cents


well get me one dam it! still I'd rather have the 4 slots for gear than one high hp tail item, mainly for the protections and saves, ET earrings fire/winds, falcon boots nice saves and hps, vaious leggings... all easier to get than the rare avernus tail ring....
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