yuck

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
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yuck

Postby kiryan » Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:23 pm

when you kick someone who's down, expect them to come up swinging.

the incident yesterday was beyond distasteful.

i hope everyone who had a direct hand in this thinks about their role in an incident which saw the self deletion of one of the most helpful and game edifying players in the last several years.

right or wrong, something went wrong.
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Postby Birile » Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:39 pm

I don't even want to know.
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Postby Drache » Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:43 pm

Well, she's the most giving person on the mud. If she doesn't return, neither will I.
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Postby Vahok » Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:46 pm

Not enough drama for y'all yesterday? Well, let's see if we can get an encore here then huh? :P
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Postby Eilistraee » Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:47 pm

I stand by my actions, at each point in what happened. If you have any questions, you are welcome to mudmail or catch me online.
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Re: yuck

Postby kanenan » Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:48 pm

kiryan wrote:when you kick someone who's down, expect them to come up swinging.

the incident yesterday was beyond distasteful.

i hope everyone who had a direct hand in this thinks about their role in an incident which saw the self deletion of one of the most helpful and game edifying players in the last several years.

right or wrong, something went wrong.


correction. EVER.
what a sad sad day it is.

We already miss you Lilithelle. your presence alone lifted many hearts, and minds. The True Lady of the Realms.

kanenan - Of Evermeet -
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Postby Drache » Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:54 pm

2nd that!

Not to get in the middle, but any admin needs to realize that Lilithelle is the most compelling person and feature this mud has. Yes, I'm biased. She's got an amazing heart, mind, and her personality is limitless. She's just a gem.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:09 pm

Lets stop this thread now before any dumb accusations are thrown out. The fact is that both Eilistraee and Lilithelle made a decision of their own accord, both of which are reversible. Please let this thread die a quick death and allow things to get worked out.
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Postby Vahok » Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:10 pm

Gormal wrote:Lets stop this thread now before any dumb accusations are thrown out. The fact is that both Eilistraee and Lilithelle made a decision of their own accord, both of which are reversible. Please let this thread die a quick death and allow things to get worked out.


Amen!
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Postby rer » Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:11 pm

Damn, I have to agree with both Nermal AND Vahok? What is this world coming to?
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Postby Drache » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:01 pm

Now just wait a minute!

Are you telling me that not only does Gormal go down great with goats. . .

But he's down to earth common sense is great, too? *tease*

I just want everybody to be happy!

casting forced mud hug *****
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Postby kiryan » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:32 pm

The admin actions were very likely justifiable, but on retrospect I don't see how one can say that what happened was anything but wrong....

Think first the person and their merits, think second the catalyst. It was utterly irresponsible behavior to make make these players the butt of an immortal's public joke then refuse to suffer their distemper in return.

To accept no responsibility solely because one is following an accepted standard is a meritless excuse especially when considering the context. Everyone including the player has culpability in this incident. One is responsible for one's own actions and their consequences. Immortals are judged against a higher standard, hasten to make it right.

And although im being a major asshole on a holier than thou kick , I still think that this is easily the best admin sphere we've ever had even though i frequently express disdain for specific things. I'm sure it doesn't make anyone feel better, but its true.
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Postby rer » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:06 am

Kiryan, the Imms are good at teasing people when they screw up, just like all of us are. Why should that change? The dynamics of the Mud would have to change for that! Now, the actions FOLLOWING that teasing, on both sides may not have been the greatest - until we have a log of it, we'll never know EXACTLY what was said, altho we can make some pretty good guesses and I'm sure some of us have seen at least partial transcripts.

The moral of the story is, what's done is done, and what's done in this case CAN be undone, should cooler heads prevail and all parties involved set aside their differences to work it out.

I agree that it sucks, but it's done, and it's not entirely the Imms fault. I don't see the point of any of us getting involved in it now - it's not our business, and it will be worked out in it's own time by the people involved.
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Postby oteb » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:35 am

As much as I (and i guess all here) hate losing Lilithelle the actions on imms' side were fully justified. They are the people that build and care about this mud and love or hate it they are above the players in hierarchy. Telling them to fuck off is just plain rude. And i think no player no matter how helpful or benefcial to the mud should be treated differently when it comes to basic rules. Besides common all that happend is that Lili got silenced. Nobody ever got silenced forever. Nor does it impair the ability to cr. And everything that happened after was Lili's own choice.
So please stop blaming the imms for abiding to the rules.
Besides...
Imagine petitioning to imms 'Fuck off' in times of mystra... She wouldnt even get a chance to self delete
Moroever.. Lili has a long history of calling people idiots or telling them fuck off. Maybe this will give her a chance to chill, to come back as better player?
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Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:51 am

bah above the players in the hierarchy? WTF People need to stop flipping the customer model upside down. WE ARE THE CUSTOMER, THEY SERVE US. Do the gods petition you for help, or do you petition the gods for help?

its not nice to say so, they may not treat us like the customer they may not care, but that is the relationship...

------

You can tell a player to fuck off, why can't you tell a god who is publcily joking around at your expense to fuck off?

stop defending the poor imms and agree that they shoudlve taken that expletive directed at them with a grain of salt considering they asked for it.

Just curious, since you are justifying the course of action and punishment with "the book", want to find an entry to justify the public ridicule and harassment of players?

And why doesn't thick skin go both ways?
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Dalar » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:00 am

Lili told people to fuck off? Evils I can understand, but not goodies. I afk almost all the time in her zones and make fun of her guild mascots (Larim and Stamm). The only time she talks to me is when she tells me to drop dead or get naked. Pretty kinky. I'll miss you Lili! Come join CBL in WoW :)

I thought I'd never do this in my entire life but...

IN BEFORE THE LOCK.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby auslyx » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:23 am

kiryan wrote:bah above the players in the hierarchy? WTF People need to stop flipping the customer model upside down. WE ARE THE CUSTOMER, THEY SERVE US. Do the gods petition you for help, or do you petition the gods for help?


In my opinion, nobody is 'above' anybody. The imms are cool enough to donate their time, experience, and skills in giving us a wonderful place to escape reality. They endure a lot of complaints and disrespect (I'm speaking of the zone/coders) On the other hand, I also agree with you in we are the 'customer' You can't walk into Wendy's, where the staff makes fun of a customer's four year old for choking on chicken nuggets! Nor can the customer tell the clerk something 'bad'. I've only dealt with Kossuth and maybe Shar. Both of them are incredibly nice. Shev was teasing but he seems really nice as well. He's just more outgoing on the fun/teasing side. I had the priveledge of meeting Lilithelle. She was extremely generous, caring, and made sure I was enjoying myself. She also donated some of her own items to me. I never can imagine the player I met to do anything aggressive as you've described, Oteb. I'm sure you feel that you are correct in how you've explained yourself, but to me the thread should die. More talking just creates needless drama. Sometimes people do and say stuff beyond what they'd normally do within their scope as a result of extenuating circumstances. I'm vain enough to believe this is the cause behind this thread's incident. Thank you both players and IMM's for the mud and helping others enjoy this place.
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Postby Corth » Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:01 am

In!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Pril » Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:25 am

Look bottom line, and i think we can all agree on this, is the most important thing that happened here was me managing to post here before it was locked.

Pril
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Postby oteb » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:34 am

OF course imms are above us in hierarchy... to me its quite obvious:
they have power to delete you
they have power to silence you
they have power to do wutever with you.

And i dont think kiryan that we are customers being served. Its just a hobby for both us and them. The little differnece is they pay for both their and our hobby.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:59 am

Be not suprised when you recieve what you have given.
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Postby Disoputlip » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:30 pm

I see the relationship between IMM and players as a cook in a restaurant.

Sure the cook decides what the customer eats when he comes visit. But ppl wont come if it's lousy food. In that way they are servants.

Beyond that I just wanted to post before the thread is locked.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:59 pm

Customers pay for what they receive, and even then... I've worked retail before, and I've never let a customer talk to me like that, and I would never continue working for an employer who expected me to allow customers to talk to me like that.

Yes, Lili uses words like "Fuck off." What many people don't know is that Lilithelle has a very nasty temper at times, and can spout off with some exceedingly offensive stuff. After she cut loose on me one day, I almost packed up and left the guild, but instead she and I had a discussion over it, and I let her know how I felt about being talked to like that, and we haven't had a problem since. Lilithelle is a sweet and wonderful person, but if you haven't seen her bad side, don't jump in and get all puffy about the staff meting out unjustifiable punishment, because you don't know the full story. I know I wasn't there when it happened, but before I drag out my soapbox and start screeching to the heavens about injustice (and for Lili I would screech loudly), I like to make sure I know the story, and I really have tried to cover it from all angles.

Do not misunderstand me on this. I adore Lilithelle and consider her to be one of my best friends on this game. This was just an incidence where she lost her temper and had to face the consequences for it, and her temper didn't like that, either. Please drop this, and don't lay loads of blame on the staff. Nobody deserves to be talked to like that, not even when the talker is considered to be a local hero, of sorts.

Now, on to other things...

Lord knows I've opened my mouth and gotten myself in loads of trouble over the years... the neurons that operate my mouth apparently have a much faster firing time than the neurons that operate my common sense. I want my Lilithelle back. Everybody that has her contact info, please let her know that we all miss her very much. Should she decide to take time away from the mud, well more power to her, but as selfish as I am, I sure hope she will still drop in to chat.
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Postby rer » Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:46 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Do not misunderstand me on this. I adore Lilithelle and consider her to be one of my best friends on this game. This was just an incidence where she lost her temper and had to face the consequences for it, and her temper didn't like that, either. Please drop this, and don't lay loads of blame on the staff. Nobody deserves to be talked to like that, not even when the talker is considered to be a local hero, of sorts.


Well said - you're whole post was great, but this part I agreed with in particular. We definitely miss Lili, but she'll be back when she's ready, and I know we'll all welcome her back with open arms.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:56 pm

rer wrote:We definitely miss Lili, but she'll be back when she's ready


Like Dezzy and Shitzu and Cherz and Toddrick?
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"

Gura: ..btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:07 pm

Xisiqomelir wrote:Like ... and Toddrick?


Well, yes. Toddrick plays you know.
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Postby Jhorr » Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:14 pm

How dare you compare Lilithelle to those folks, Xisiqomelir. She is in a different league.
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Postby Lahgen » Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:51 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Do not misunderstand me on this. I adore Lilithelle and consider her to be one of my best friends on this game. This was just an incidence where she lost her temper and had to face the consequences for it, and her temper didn't like that, either. Please drop this, and don't lay loads of blame on the staff. Nobody deserves to be talked to like that, not even when the talker is considered to be a local hero, of sorts.


But if the imms started it....

Sure, Lili should have turned the other cheek, but if Kiryan is speaking the truth, Lili is the wronged party here.
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Postby rer » Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:56 pm

The thing is, we don't know what the truth is in this thread. Lili and Eilistraee had a disagreement, and Lili felt the only recourse was to delete. It's a decision she made and we all have to live with. Personally, I think it's funny when the Imms make those global comments, because the spirit of them is not malicious in my opinion.

I dont think we can point any fingers here. No one is "Guilty". Each party made their decisions, made their statements, and created their own consequences. Eili and Lili are both great. Period.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:07 pm

An astereater tells you 'I'm not sure what exactly I am, but that party sure tasted good.'


That's the global echo that's at question. I got a good chuckle out of it even after the fact... I don't know what an astereater is, either, but apparently he ate a lot of aster that day.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:56 pm

Ashiwi wrote:I don't know what an astereater is, either, but apparently he ate a lot of aster that day.


Linkity

and also

Jhorr wrote:How dare you compare Lilithelle to those folks, Xisiqomelir.


Have you played with anyone I mentioned?
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"



Gura: ..btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:42 pm

Mountian out of a molehill much?

This isn't the first time staff has globaled at a groups expense, i'm sorry but it's part of the game. How many times have people whined for deathOOC. It's a part of the game. She got silenced. Big fugging deal, it would have been lifted quick enough. She self deleted, they didn't do it, she did.

End of story pretty much. Stop treating the staff like they killed christ, it's really old.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:20 pm

Jhorr wrote:How dare you compare Lilithelle to those folks, Xisiqomelir.


Have you played with anyone I mentioned?[/quote]


ROFL!!!! Jhorr you started playing when? Last week?
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Postby Jhorr » Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:23 pm

Yes, Xisiqomelir. Lilithelle isn't sitebanned. That was my point.
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Postby Vorkul Tigerclaw » Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:29 am

Losing one of the best leaders (if not the best), one of the most helpful players (if not the most), especially in regard to newbies, and frankly the kindest muder I've ever met, is never a good thing.

How I see it is, Lili groups usually go perfectly smooth, and when one doesn't, she usually isn't too happy about it. I've seen her bad side, but believe me when I tell you its nothing in comparison to what she has offered and still may offer to this mud.

Lili was well-known and often praised for her great addition to this mud. And when you get praised that much, you are bound to get somewhat of an ego. Lili has always seemed quite humble to me....never boasting, always caring... But when an echo like that is broadcasted when usually Lili groups almost never fully spank....atleast from my knowledge, I could see how tempers flare.

I hope to see Lili's pfile restored, and the whole thing shuffled off as a misunderstanding.....things taken too seriously on both the player and the immortal spectrum.

Let's not lower ourselves to just a bunch of idiots with conflicting egos. It was a situation compelled by sudden anger that got out of hand.....let's forgive and move on.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:50 am

Ashiwi wrote:An astereater tells you 'I'm not sure what exactly I am, but that party sure tasted good.'


That's the global echo that's at question. I got a good chuckle out of it even after the fact... I don't know what an astereater is, either, but apparently he ate a lot of aster that day.


I'm easily in the top five for having such globals made about me, and I don't think I've ever responded in such a manner. I do understand Lilithelle's mentality, but how about we try to do something constructive here?

I'm going to submit to you that Lilithelle's actions were a result of her mentality and style of play - the idea of one ultimately efficient way of doing things, one ideal run, and everything else being worthless. Clearly if you run things perfectly for so long and only accept perfection, it's going to be harder to take when everything goes wrong.

That was the real choice - how to play the game - and it she made it long ago. If Lil elects not to come back, that's her affair, and I will miss having her around, but I will not take it out on the imms. She chose it.

The least we can do is honor that choice.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:52 am

Holy crap. You died to the astereater? If I was Eilistraee I would have done the same. Anyways.

I'm not surprised Lilithelle blew up and quit. I've always seen her as someone who needs to have a perfect zone run. Why? Because I know she wouldn't lead IC2 or BC or anything she didn't have intimiate knowledge for. As for being the best zone leader ever (Vorkul), yea right. Turg and Folur did the exact same thing. They lead zones as if they read it from some book. Lilithelle was no different. Someone will step up to the plate in Lilithelle's place. The only thing that separated Lili from the rest was that she helped new people alot, which is what every player should be doing.

Eilistraee didn't mess up. He's done the exact same thing gods have done when mortals screw up on npcs. Lilithelle should know this. Gods won't say they're sorry because they have no reason to. It's standard operating procedure. Don't like it? Play a different game. I know I am.
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Postby Dizzin » Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:06 am

Dalar wrote:Holy crap. You died to the astereater? If I was Eilistraee I would have done the same. Anyways.


If that doesn't prove Eilistraee was in the wrong, I dont know WHAT would.

And had a whole bunch typed out but lost it to refresh so I spose I summarize.

Hulburg should have more points. A lot more.

If the staff plan on publicly embarassing players, they should expect players to turn on them in anger.

Aaand.. Jhorr, it's a good idea to get your facts straight before doing any sort of public speaking. Well.. unless you're the W.

And finally...
IN!
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Postby Corth » Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:32 am

Leading 14 people around is stressful under the best of circumstances. The more difficult the zone, the greater the stress. The global in question was not meant to hurt anyone, and quite frankly, is part of the game. What Lilithelle did was completely irrational, and I think she probably realizes this by now. It was the result of stress, failed responsibility, and likely the feeling that she let down her group. Those of you who are blaming the gods for this are barking up the wrong tree. It was Lilithelle's problem, and I have a feeling that by now she realizes that she was wrong, and perhaps is too embarrased to come back and admit it. Lilithelle should realize that what she did was forgiveable, and that there is no need to save face. When (if?) she were to come back, the players will rally around her and give her hugs and will not require any explanations.

All good leaders have a bit of a hot streak in them. Hence the reason why Morithiel is such a lousy leader. :)

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:32 am

kiryan wrote: Do the gods petition you for help, or do you petition the gods for help?


Main Entry: 1pe·ti·tion
Pronunciation: p&-'ti-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin petition-, petitio, from petere to seek, request -- more at FEATHER
1 : an earnest request : ENTREATY
2 a : a formal written request made to an official person or organized body (as a court) b : a document embodying such a formal written request
3 : something asked or requested


Main Entry: en·treaty
Pronunciation: -'trE-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -treat·ies
: an act of entreating : PLEA

Say what you will about imm-player interactions, but I don't really think the act of petitioning is in favor of your argument that imms serve the players. It's not called the 'demand' channel.


Oh, and Corth, my offer for another leader to prove their supremacy by taking noob-composed groups and doing off planar zones better than I can still stands. ;-)
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Postby Jhorr » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:49 am

Btw, Lilithelle wasn't leading that night. It was my group.

Point taken Dizzin. I know what I said doesn't apply to all of those he mentioned.
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:34 pm

8)

Nobody gets a world echo when they defeat an encounter without a hitch.
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Postby Gormal » Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:17 pm

Depending on how you define "hitch", I'd say that you're wrong. We've gotten globals for Tiamat and BC runs before upon completion.
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Postby rer » Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:14 pm

And when we tried Choking Palace 20 minutes after it was put in, we ended up with multiple mud-motes over our terrific spankage. But the Gods were also nice enuf to reset the zone, etc. so we could try again if we wanted, and were very supportive. They didnt tell us how to complete it, which is good, since I still think that it hasnt been done successfully... So it'll be interesting to see which group gets it done first.

Anyhow, back to the point... The mud-motes are meant to be funny, not hurtful. Regardless, pointing fingers is just silly. If you happen to have the complete log of the convo between Lili and Eilistraee, post that and then point a finger. Since I dont think anyone here does, except Eilistraee and Lili, let them work out their differences and get over it. I know that Pril and I will start leading more. Obibble too probably. Gormal certainly. Lilen, Pava, Alilsil, Wuva, Mori, Osod, Silena are all likely candidates to lead more often too... Groups will still get formed, zones will still be done. We will still miss Lili. Facts of life.
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Postby Sesexe » Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:36 pm

moritheil wrote:Oh, and Corth, my offer for another leader to prove their supremacy by taking noob-composed groups and doing off planar zones better than I can still stands. ;-)


Ahem. While you're down there, could you polish my booties?

Kthnxbye


PS. Consent for Hulburg!
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Delmair Aamoren
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:16 am

kiryan wrote:bah above the players in the hierarchy? WTF People need to stop flipping the customer model upside down. WE ARE THE CUSTOMER, THEY SERVE US. Do the gods petition you for help, or do you petition the gods for help?

its not nice to say so, they may not treat us like the customer they may not care, but that is the relationship...

------

You can tell a player to fuck off, why can't you tell a god who is publcily joking around at your expense to fuck off?

stop defending the poor imms and agree that they shoudlve taken that expletive directed at them with a grain of salt considering they asked for it.

Just curious, since you are justifying the course of action and punishment with "the book", want to find an entry to justify the public ridicule and harassment of players?

And why doesn't thick skin go both ways?


Kiryan, pull yer head out yer ass. In order for the customer model to work, i think money has to change hands or something. They are doing this for FREE. And furthermore it is a privelage to play here. Yes tempers flared, and i feel VERY bad for the loss. But quit pouring salt into the wounds of all.

And on the point of telling an imm to "fuck off" i did this once myself, to lloth when i felt i had been treated unfairly. i think it was followed by "die slow". at any rate, in retrospect, it wasn't the right thing for me to do, but hell i got BANNED for that. i wasn't allowed to come back til it was sojourn3. at any rate, i hope we can get past this, and i hope lili comes back.

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Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:01 am

There's a lot I could say on the subject. I've told Miax off before in response to some unneccesary comments made over OOC, but I was able to do so using restrained language and code fixes resulted from it. Even when angry, there are proper and improper ways to express things.

But more importantly, as one of Imphras's long-time smartasses I've made jokes at the expense of some of my guildmates for years and learned something important years ago:

Not everyone likes being made fun of and just because other people can take it doesn't mean it's right.

I've learned to ease up on the jokes about some people after seeing how the reacted. I've had some harsh reactions that felt like slaps in the face. Seeing a guildmate use your name and the word "hate" in the same sentense is not a pleasant experience. As tempting as it was to snap back another sarcastic remark, I chose to respect that person's limits on what constitutes respectable behavior and we have a much more pleasant relationship for it.

Not everyone on the MUD is the same. This much should be obvious, but it also extends to the verbal abuse people can take. I know some players that refuse to follow certain leaders not because they think those leaders are inept, but because they don't care for some of the insults they've endured from them before (and I mean real insults here, not 'You need to rescue more' or something like that). In that situation, they can at least choose to avoid grouping with those people and instead hang out with the people they like. It's nowhere near as easy to do so with the Imms involved. But it is possible on the staff's part. Death OOC is ignorable by just not having OOC on. And using tells or peitition responses allow for plenty of private ribbing. But even then, that doesn't necessarily mean it's still always appropriate.
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Postby amolol » Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:30 am

this is sickening to me... debating weather or not it was an imm fault lilli's or the groups... dont blame anybody. it isnt an imm fault or lilli's or the groups... sigly it was a combination of all the things that happened... and mori hit it right on the head when he said that mostly its because of the way lilli is used to doing things... no offence to her but she is a perfectionist...



P.S. we will miss you lilli... at least myself duard and linsow will... those i can speak for. you were a great teacher to me.
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Postby belleshel.. » Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:32 am

Can this end yet? The immortals did nothing wrong, hopefully this episode doesn't change the echo policys that have been in place for a decade. If you want to express your appreciationg for the thankless job the immortals do, go right ahead they deserve it. If you want to express your appreciation for the tremendous things Lili has done for the mud, again she deserves it. What happened was Lili's personal decision, nothing more, nothing less, no reason to publicy try to disect it.
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Postby Kifle » Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:38 am

The relationship isn't a consumer model, but more a symbiotic relationship where we as the players are parasitic. Were one to die off, the other would also inevitably die.

Anyway, each side had the right to do as they did. I don't blame lili for saying what she did, and I don't blame Eli for doing what she did either. Unfortunately, Lili is gone, but there is very little that can be done about that.
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