Lich vs. Necro curiosity

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Drache
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Lich vs. Necro curiosity

Postby Drache » Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:23 am

As I'm talking to a necro I realize that certain quest spells are lost during lichdom. Specifically 'life walk'. A lich is even more powerful than a necromancer, so how is it 'fair' for a lich to lose the power? If it's based on consuming some 'life' in order to perform the spell, it could hurt the lich in fashion similar to teleporting to a living being causes you greatly stresses your body! (and you lose x hps). It's very nice that lich can heal but with **** making qc, that's not too overpowered by any means. They've no stone, no blindness, no real means of transportation. Being masters of death, imho, they would have figured out a way to find a median to persue the living via teleporting of some sort.

**Another thought is why does a lich even need a spellbook? They've been doing the same spells for centuries? Just curious cuz I don't know D&D well so it's a question for both that and hoping that a lich wouldn't need a book in the game.
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Re: Lich vs. Necro curiosity

Postby Vorkul Tigerclaw » Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:23 pm

Drache wrote:As I'm talking to a necro I realize that certain quest spells are lost during lichdom. Specifically 'life walk'. A lich is even more powerful than a necromancer, so how is it 'fair' for a lich to lose the power? If it's based on consuming some 'life' in order to perform the spell, it could hurt the lich in fashion similar to teleporting to a living being causes you greatly stresses your body! (and you lose x hps). It's very nice that lich can heal but with **** making qc, that's not too overpowered by any means. They've no stone, no blindness, no real means of transportation. Being masters of death, imho, they would have figured out a way to find a median to persue the living via teleporting of some sort.

**Another thought is why does a lich even need a spellbook? They've been doing the same spells for centuries? Just curious cuz I don't know D&D well so it's a question for both that and hoping that a lich wouldn't need a book in the game.


I think it was made this way to actually have some benefit to staying necro. Regardless however, I believe what you get as a lich far outweighs what necros get rewarded with.
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Re: Lich vs. Necro curiosity

Postby Sesexe » Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:41 pm

Drache wrote:A lich is even more powerful than a necromancer, so how is it 'fair' for a lich to lose the power?


You answered your own question. In order to balance the necro with the lich class, and therefor make each a viable option to play as, the necro had to be able to have some things the lich can't have.


There was a conversation about a month ago where myself and a few others had on GCC with Kossuth about the lich's inability to move quickly accross the mud. Different ideas were discussed, and the relo situation was brought up. At the end it came down to perhaps giving lich's a perm affect similar to the song of travel, that is, that they regen their current moves at an increased rate like that of ths song (instead of giving them unlimited - too twinky, or massive amounts of moves - equally twinky). That's what Sparky said he was gonna bring up with other staff members.

Haven't heard anything about it since then, and since Kossuth is now retired.... I don't know if we ever will. *shrug*

Lich's are an EXTREMELY powerful class. This is something most people playing the class, or those who have never played it, aren't aware of. This is why you can't give them the ability to be healed by their pets. This is why you can't give them blindness as a spell. Giving either to them would make them godly to the players who know how to play the class to it's full potential.

I don't believe lich's need a major teleportation spell like relo/life walk. I like how necros have it and lich's don't.

As for the whole not needing spellbooks. I don't agree to the extent you are talking about. I had thought for a little that maybe all the lich only spells shouldn't require a spellbook. That instead they should be like quest spells, and able to be mem'd without a book. But I dunno. That's a lot of spells to give.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:08 pm

In a zone sense...

BC almost requires a necro to get rid of the 10 minute (with a bard) downtime associated with each death. This could also be said for other !tele zones. Unfortunately, since those zones are almost never done, being a necromancer is pretty much useless. Become a lich and get the increased damage output.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Re: Lich vs. Necro curiosity

Postby Drache » Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:19 am

Sesexe wrote:You answered your own question. In order to balance the necro with the lich class, and therefor make each a viable option to play as, the necro had to be able to have some things the lich can't have.


This answers nothing. You all quests are to become or receive more. More power, better enhancements, etc. Back when lich was first available that's one thing. To make lich available then add to the necro class after having chosen to lich is a little beguiling. Not saying anything about the benefits that necros receive after the lich option was available, but forfeiting hometowns, and gaining a lot of global hate is one thing.

My whole point is this. Why would you lose skills that you've used your whole life in changing into something renowed as a 'stronger version' ? All mages have global mobility. Yet the most powerful of the undead can teleport/dim Convenience is not power
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Re: Lich vs. Necro curiosity

Postby Yarash » Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:39 am

Drache wrote:You all quests are to become or receive more.

The quest is to change your class. The quest is also optional. Nobody is forced to be a Lich if they don't want to. Having classes other than your own change is part of the game.

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Postby Ambar » Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:24 am

well look at it this way

you are no longer living, you can no longer even READ necro spellbooks ...
you are a different class (have a lich make you new spellbooks:P)

you evolve

and no longer need those niceties from life ...
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Re: Lich vs. Necro curiosity

Postby Sesexe » Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:55 pm

Drache wrote:My whole point is this. Why would you lose skills that you've used your whole life in changing into something renowed as a 'stronger version' ? All mages have global mobility. Yet the most powerful of the undead can teleport/dim Convenience is not power


So following your train of thought to it's destination, you're implying that any current necro now, should be able to get all their current !lich quest spells, and then keep them when they lich, while all current lichs who have been a lich since before hand are S.O.L.?

That's a hard sell. I woudn't buy it.
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Postby Drache » Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:15 pm

No...extrapolating my logic to fruition yields adjustment for all who are or will lich. I'm implying common sense and least resistance.
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Postby Sesexe » Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:49 pm

Drache wrote:No...extrapolating my logic to fruition yields adjustment for all who are or will lich. I'm implying common sense and least resistance.


Well common sense says, going by the history of this every changing mud, one thing they have never been big on is just handing people quest spells.
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Postby Eilistraee » Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:57 pm

Just thought I'd interject this here. All three of the necromancer only quest spells rely on the manipulation of life, or positive, energy. This manipulation is outside of a lich's ability due to their undead nature.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:42 pm

Hey, Eil? If I go warrior from my ranger class, can I keep the barkskin, natures blessing, PWT, archery, as well as gain all the warrior skills?

:P /Sarcasm
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Postby Birile » Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:19 pm

Just something to add:

Most people decide from the get-go, or soon after (certainly before questing any spells) whether or not they are going to remain a necromancer or switch their class to lich--and yes, it is a complete change of the class, not just an upgrade. Thus, if you know you are going to lich, there's little need to quest the necromancer-only quest spells, unless you want to test out the class before deciding whether or not to change your class.

And then there's also what Eilistraee mentioned about those quest spells being about the manipulation of life--not death. Of course, given this argument, how a lich can utilize a dagger of oblivion which leeches LIFE is beyond me.

Trying to start trouble,
Birile :twisted:
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Postby Drache » Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:56 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:Hey, Eil? If I go warrior from my ranger class, can I keep the barkskin, natures blessing, PWT, archery, as well as gain all the warrior skills?

:P /Sarcasm


And here I just thought that this noob mob's stealing idiot was void of a sense of humor

I'd worry about morting as a player with class first

:P /Sarcasm (*snicker*)
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Postby Sesexe » Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:00 pm

Birile wrote:Most people decide from the get-go, or soon after (certainly before questing any spells) whether or not they are going to remain a necromancer or switch their class to lich--and yes, it is a complete change of the class, not just an upgrade. Thus, if you know you are going to lich, there's little need to quest the necromancer-only quest spells, unless you want to test out the class before deciding whether or not to change your class.


Very very true. From necromancers, I get entirely more questions about lich quest then the necro only spells.

Birile wrote:And then there's also what Eilistraee mentioned about those quest spells being about the manipulation of life--not death. Of course, given this argument, how a lich can utilize a dagger of oblivion which leeches LIFE is beyond me.


Little bastard's got the makings of a good argument. :)
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Postby Drache » Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:52 am

Birile reminds me a lot of an ogre's bowel movement. Time rids us of the BM, yet Birile remains. Baffling! Someone let that little halfling know there's a pinata missing at a party! No! Better yet, little Biriles running about everywhere are great. They remind us what happens when you don't flush!
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Postby Nekelet » Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:51 am

Life walk involves transfering your life force to another living target, at the expense of some of that life energy. Makes perfect sense to me that Liches don't have this ability, as they have no life. (Of course that is not to say I wouldn't like reloc of some sort, but I understand the reasoning..)

Similarly, transporting living souls (soul walk) could be argued to be outside the area of expertise of a lich, whether they knew how prior to undeath or not. That spectre mob might have had bash before he was raised, but he sure is gonna have a hard time now given his current condition.

VampCurse in my mind is a bit gray - but I knew before the fact that it was going to go away and still chose to quest it simply because lich takes (or took me) a long time. If I had the option of the 2 transports back before I liched, I'm sure I've had thought quite a bit longer about whether I was going to to through with it, but I doubt the outcome would have changed.

The only difference between necros and lich at this time that I take exception to is PfU. I might grumble on occasion about some of the other quest spells, but thats just me... :D



<edit>
Course, I write this and *then* notice that Eilistraee summed it up perfectly, and without the babbling. :P
Last edited by Nekelet on Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:56 am

Nekelet wrote:The only difference between necros and lich at this time that I take exception to is PfU. I might grumble on occasion about some of the other quest spells, but thats just me... :D


What do you mean? Protect undead now gives lich's PFU.
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Postby Nekelet » Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:58 am

Partial strength PfU, that doesn't work properly.
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Postby Yarash » Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:53 pm

Drache wrote:Birile reminds me a lot of an ogre's bowel movement. Time rids us of the BM, yet Birile remains. Baffling! Someone let that little halfling know there's a pinata missing at a party! No! Better yet, little Biriles running about everywhere are great. They remind us what happens when you don't flush!

Do you expect to be taken seriously when you post something like this? Part of using a message board is hearing different views, even ones you don't agree with. Insulting people isn't going to help your cause.

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Postby Drache » Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:49 am

Birile loves me!
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Postby Birile » Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:03 am

Drache wrote:Birile loves me!


You couldn't handle me. 8)
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Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:16 pm

Dalar wrote:In a zone sense...

BC almost requires a necro to get rid of the 10 minute (with a bard) downtime associated with each death. This could also be said for other !tele zones. Unfortunately, since those zones are almost never done, being a necromancer is pretty much useless. Become a lich and get the increased damage output.


what he said

and...

vampiric curse needs to overwrite fire/cold shield to be even moderately useful or necros could get something better than dispel magic. (for you that don't know, vamp curse heals you for damage you do to a mob and requires that both fire and cold shield are not up to land the spell).

Seriously waste of a spell quest at the moment although moderately useful for plevel.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:32 pm

Drache wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Hey, Eil? If I go warrior from my ranger class, can I keep the barkskin, natures blessing, PWT, archery, as well as gain all the warrior skills?

:P /Sarcasm


And here I just thought that this noob mob's stealing idiot was void of a sense of humor

I'd worry about morting as a player with class first

:P /Sarcasm (*snicker*)


When have I ever stolen a mob from you? Talking about class, or perhaps a lack of such...
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Postby Drache » Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:13 pm

Well, first I saw someone heal and spell you up then we find out you're taking lowbie's mobs on bgr, and all you do is kill the guy's mob and move on. You don't thank the healer nor regard stealing. That's seriously lame.
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Postby sifu_augustin » Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:13 am

this post has become fuggin_lame!

*bows to Teflor*
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Postby Drache » Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:10 pm

Sifu...stfu :P *hands you a towel* wipe the brown off. Clean yourself up!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:42 am

Well I thank you personally for your very classy accusation of an obviously highly offensive infraction of the honorable rules of the mud.

If you ever want to throw baseless accusations that neither make sense or have reason again, I thank you ahead of time for your concern and your honorable intentions.

People like you must be filled with a love of all mankind that I only wish each and every person had.
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Postby sifu_augustin » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:13 pm

*bows to drache*

Good job alienating your post!!1one

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