51+ mobs

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selerial
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51+ mobs

Postby selerial » Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:06 am

I'm not necessarily suggesting some sort of wide-spread change here, but since I'm in something of a verbose and contemplative mood tonight, I wanted to make a topic about the fairly wide distribution of level 51+ mobs.

Basically, I have issues with how many there are in the game. It's true that a MUD, by nature, really doesn't have an "ending", but there is still some theoretical closure in the fact that you can reach a "highest level". However, when mob levels can exceed player levels, it implies a bit of an unreachable ceiling.

Certainly, there are balance issues with spells like Power Word Blind, but then there are the implications of being level 51 (and PCs only reaching 50). Essentially, level 51 implies that you've stepped beyond the ordinary mortal realm in to something which is at least a minor godly power. However, that can't be especially true, because then it feels like a good 50% or more of the "end game" mobs (even the cannon fodder before the named mobs) are all little gods.

Then there's the level 50 PC ceiling. By having a fairly wide number of level 51+ mobs, there's sort of the feeling that a level 50 player is still small in the world, maybe powerful in some realms, but still average-to-sub-par in many parts of the planes. I'd like to see level 50 meaning that you're really one of the elite of the world (not talking clique elite, but just in terms of skills and such).

Essentially, I think it would be nice to see quite a few of the mobs (all of DS along with most mobs on the prime plane that aren't supposed to be super-powered) capped at level 50. Level 51+ should be reserved for *really* strong mobs, ones that deserve some sort of semi-diety status, like Malice and family, etc. (Not to mention Tiamat of course.. she's already considered a god though.)

Of course, I realize that such a proposal would have to include a re-tooling of the "balance" of the game, but then, that seems to be a perennial topic of discussion on these board already...
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Postby Yarash » Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:30 am

The mud has 13,350 different mobs. Your suggestion would require evaluating and modifying nearly every one, as well as code changes. Do you really think that much lost productivity would be worth the result?

- Mike
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Postby kiryan » Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:35 am

it was apparently worth it on eq.

and the plethora of 51+ mobs is half anti-twink and half exp.

I don't know if i agree this is a serious issue, but raising a mob to 54 so it can be better exp is funny.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Birile » Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:43 pm

kiryan wrote:I don't know if i agree this is a serious issue, but raising a mob to 54 so it can be better exp is funny.


Why's it funny?
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Postby selerial » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:42 pm

Just to un-declarify and put my horse back before my cart, I screwed up the first statement I made. It should have been:

What I'm thinking about here *is* a broad-sweeping proposal, but I'm not expecting it to be implemented due to the fact that it would need something along the lines of a pwipe (probably) to implement.

However, it's just a point of view that I've held for quite some time. If some giant in a forest can be level 51, 52, etc and so on, why can't I? Ok, the giant is a "giant", but then you have the anti-paladin and the lightning robed mage, which I think are human.. Am I (along with all other players) simply not good enough?

In this case, it's really a matter of mud/area design, and I happen to think it could be analyzed and possibly even changed. But while that's my feeling, I also can realistically say that I don't see it happening any time soon.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I have yet to find any other text mud out there that's nearly as enjoyable to play as this one. Overall the quests, classes, races, zones, and a myriad of other things are superior to other muds I've played.
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Postby Birile » Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:18 pm

selerial wrote:Just to un-declarify and put my horse back before my cart, I screwed up the first statement I made. It should have been:

What I'm thinking about here *is* a broad-sweeping proposal, but I'm not expecting it to be implemented due to the fact that it would need something along the lines of a pwipe (probably) to implement.

However, it's just a point of view that I've held for quite some time. If some giant in a forest can be level 51, 52, etc and so on, why can't I? Ok, the giant is a "giant", but then you have the anti-paladin and the lightning robed mage, which I think are human.. Am I (along with all other players) simply not good enough?

In this case, it's really a matter of mud/area design, and I happen to think it could be analyzed and possibly even changed. But while that's my feeling, I also can realistically say that I don't see it happening any time soon.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I have yet to find any other text mud out there that's nearly as enjoyable to play as this one. Overall the quests, classes, races, zones, and a myriad of other things are superior to other muds I've played.


I think part of the issue may be that 50th level PCs on this MUD are already quite powerful. Given PCs more levels would mean giving them more hp's and, more importantly, probably more skills/spells which would only make them even more powerful. Once we start making PCs even more powerful than they already are then we really begin to shift the focus of the Mud from group-based to solo-based. At least, that's what it seems to me.
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Postby Shargaas » Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:02 am

Mob levels of 51+ are very artificial when compared to levels 1-50. The level is more a guide to difficulty rather than epic levels above and beyond level 50. Mobs currently do not have access to 11th and 12th circle spells or additional skills beyond some race based ones (wing buffet).
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:07 pm

Giving mobs greater levels than PC's is supposed to help add some difficulty to the killing of that mob. We already walk all over mobs of the same level, if every mob was only level 50 or below, we'd be able to do every zone with full groups of level 36. I always wished mobs could be given even higher levels than they can now. I'd like to see a group of PC's taking on a level 100 Tiamat.
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Postby oteb » Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:28 pm

I really think it is not an issue. Afterall you char doesnt actually know level of mob. Only thing they know is what consider command tells them which gives a rough estimattion of mob's difficulty. Evertthing past that is just a code issue which should not be treated as RP. From RP point of view ds giant can be as high level as you but just tougher bc well he is a giant.
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Postby kiryan » Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:45 pm

Birile wrote:
kiryan wrote:I don't know if i agree this is a serious issue, but raising a mob to 54 so it can be better exp is funny.


Why's it funny?


Its funny because some level 54 mobs hit like pussies and others hit like trucks. In many cases mobs seem to be artificially high level just to give better exp... just like flagging them rogue and giving them no daggers (cough ferns).
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Yarash » Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:17 am

kiryan wrote:In many cases mobs seem to be artificially high level just to give better exp.

Are you suggesting that some exp areas have mobs that have had their levels raised, but not their abilities? As the mob's level increases, so should its hp, dam, etc. If this isn't the case somewhere, that would be a problem.

- Mike
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Postby sok » Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:31 pm

since we dont have a peta for mobs, i say we continue to abuse them to our hearts content. screw em, abuse em, oppress em, twink em. if they aren't willing to defend themselves then they aren't worth defending.

sok, proud-member of the pro-player movement
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:04 pm

I'm not sure about here, but it's very possible to alter exp gain per zone in the code, raising the exp per mob by a percentage over the norm. It's also possible to alter the stats of mobs, raising or lowering them above or below the norm. There is a mob generator which automacally assigns stats to a mob once the foundation is created, but I don't think you have to stick with it. Again, I'm not sure of the exact case on this MUD, but I don't see why you couldn't do it.
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Postby rockers » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:42 am

Ashiwi wrote

I'd like to see a group of PC's taking on a level 100 Tiamat.


Roll a new character and we go to tiamat hehehehehe :D
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Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:39 pm

Yarash wrote:
kiryan wrote:In many cases mobs seem to be artificially high level just to give better exp.

Are you suggesting that some exp areas have mobs that have had their levels raised, but not their abilities? As the mob's level increases, so should its hp, dam, etc. If this isn't the case somewhere, that would be a problem.

- Mike


well yes I think there are mobs that were modified to be more efficient for exp purposes, whether thats raising their level and leaving their stats low or lowering their stats or simply increasing the exp awarded, there "level" is artifically high.

Just like how ferns are flagged rogue (but aren't given daggers) and therefore grant an exceptional amount of exp for a very easy kill while a classless or even a warrior mob would give much less (war) to a pitiful amount (classless) exp.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby sok » Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:02 am

i dont understand. first xp is too hard so they make xp zone. now xp is too easy? maybe if u make xp mob track to fights and assist? but i like my xp mindless, and semi afk.
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Postby Yarash » Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:48 am

sok wrote:i dont understand. first xp is too hard so they make xp zone. now xp is too easy? maybe if u make xp mob track to fights and assist? but i like my xp mindless, and semi afk.

The ferns are deffinetly easy exp. The big benefit that I see is that the northern ones don't switch. However, if they scavenge a dagger it quickly becomes unpleasant.

Exp areas must be reasonably easy or it won't be done. As an example, I've been to that newish aggro orc exp area about two times. Both times the group died pretty fast and then left. It might be a great area, but exp groups seem to be afraid to go there.

- Mike

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