Well it was news to me

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Hyldryn
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Well it was news to me

Postby Hyldryn » Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:58 pm

Apparently, you are considered botting even if you are not running any triggers, but are afk practicing skills (ie, in perpetual combat). After talking with the administration, I kinda felt like I was the only one who didn't know that. Am I?
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Postby Ambar » Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:14 pm

I thought as long as you manually attack, you are fine.

I'd say a place like skellies or other aggro area, staying in one place .... that'd be botting.

am I wrong?
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Postby rylan » Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:21 pm

Hrm well actually that would be news to me also. I've aggrod a pile of low level mobs and gone afk for a while to pratice skills, or used the spirit mastiff to practice skills for a while and check in after a while. From what I've seen this is a quite common way to practice skills, especially for those who don't use triggers or bot assist to practice.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:43 pm

I've heard them say before that if you're skill practicing, you need to at least be able to respond to a petition, that if you set yourself up to accomplish something while you're not at the keys, it's botting.
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Postby Corth » Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:08 pm

Heh.. If you aren't using triggers, its not botting. If the gods don't like the fact that you can stand there all day against the spirit mastiff, they should make the spirit mastiff stronger...

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Sesexe » Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:05 am

My interpretation was always, if you have some way of automatically practicing your skills, or getting even 1 exp, while not at the keys, it's botting.

An idle trig might not be making you attack, but it is keeping you in battle, and therefor using skills which both can notch (practice) and allow you to receive experience from using them, as well as possible kill experience.

Just because you're not initiating the combat sequence, doesn't mean you're not abusing it.

Think of the extreme. A decked out lower level characater that's pleveling himself while not at the keys by standing in a zone full of aggros he can easily kill bc of his/her gear. It's botting.

He's leveling. You're skill notching. Same difference.


Sucks, but hey, them's the rules.
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Postby Hyldryn » Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:44 am

Its interesting that under certain circumstances you can considered botting using telnet.
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Postby Drache » Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:48 am

For such things as eating, drinking, retrieving weapons, and looting corpses, we have no care, HOWEVER you are running a robot if you leave the keyboard for an extended amount of time while continuing to have character activity which allows you to play the game. If this sounds like something you do, chances are you are running a robot.


Sure seems like the AFK trigger is a passive way to bot given the example.
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Postby Hyldryn » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:19 am

The issue is no triggers. Not afk triggers.
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Postby rylan » Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:59 pm

I guess the question is how long were you practicing skills and not looking at the game?
Is there some time limit where its ok if you look in every 10-15 minutes, or do you have to be able to respond to people within a couple minutes?

I hope you didn't get any nasty punishment for this.
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:12 pm

on another bbs post, 'someone' replied to a petition saying 'You appear to be botting, you have 5 minutes to reply.'

That basically wraps up the post. In this case, someone is gaining skills while AFK. What I can see is, say some rl issue came up - could be bathroom break, someone at door, etc. Reminds me of my law studies. There are always circumstances that need to be considered. Sounds like they just asked what was going on *shrug*
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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:54 pm

I'm sorry but it is simply not botting at all unless you are using triggers. Look at the word itself... 'botting'. As in robot. As in an automated being acting according to preprogrammed instructions. Instructions being the key. If you don't program triggers, there are no instructions, and there is no bot.

If I were afk and an aggro mob walked in on me, and I just kept fighting and fighting it for hours on end would that be a bot? Of course not. This is just silly.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Hyldryn » Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:06 pm

Well, that's how they're doing it. Not that I mind, I mean its their mud they could make whatever rules they want, we don't gotta agree with it. Like they could make the rule, no one with the middle name Bob can play an antipaladin on Fridays, and they'd be within their rights. It just would be nice to know these things beforehand.
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:10 pm

from help robot..

DO NOT run triggers while afk that allow you to:

* Practice skills
* Auto-attack mobs



I guess that's their basis. Yeah it's pretty thin. If that's their reasoning, then it sounds like the help files need a clear and precise addition:
"Do not idle in aggro zones, this will be considered a form of player roboting."
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:10 pm

Part of botting includes using devices or methods which will keep your character active within the system, instead of voiding out after a period of AFK non-activity. Setting yourself up to repeat certain actions over and over again indicates a robot-like character... a character with no living force driving it, which continues to perform an active function. One definition of "robot" is "A machine or device that operates automatically or by remote control." Taking advantage of the battle system to keep your character operational through automatic mechanism in the game isn't quite the same as getting accidentally engaged by a mob, now is it?

Heh, Corth, I had a funny vision of that Simpson's cartoon where Bart and Lisa tell each other "I'm not going to intentionally hit you, I'm just going to swing my arm/kick my leg as I walk in your direction."
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Postby sifu_augustin » Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:29 pm

Sesexe wrote: If that's their reasoning, then it sounds like the help files need a clear and precise addition:
"Do not idle in aggro zones, this will be considered a form of player roboting."


BEST RULE EVAR!!11one
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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:29 pm

What are the gods trying to accomplish by making 'bots' against the rules? The answer is pretty much beyond debate. They are trying to maintain the integrity of the game. If people, for instance, could bot to level 50, or obtain unlimited amounts of platinum through botting.. well, then level 50 and platinum would both mean nothing at all. The integrity of the game would be completely undermined. Basically, the rule against botting is the mud equivalent to laws against counterfeiting. If we could all print up money then money would become meaningless.

Thus, we can see why the gods are bothered by people obtaining skill increases while afk... even if they are not using triggers to do so.. Under these circumstances, skill increases eventually become meaningless, and the integrity of the game is threatened.

However, there is a big difference between using triggers and not using triggers. With triggers, its the player who is taking the initiatve to undermine the credibility of the game. Thus, the gods need to enforce a rule against the players. On the otther hand, when triggers are not being used, the problem is with the game itself, that would allow such an inequity on its own terms. Someone sitting afk fighting a mob without triggers is playing the game as it has been written. If its a problem, then the game needs to be corrected. There is nothing to enforce against the player.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:50 pm

Are you looking for a legalistic answer to what should be a common sense issue?When a player abuses a game feature, intentionally or non-intentionally, shouldn't the first-time response be to inform the player of the potential consequences and expect them to not do it again? If we sat down and listed all game features which could be abused, then demanded that the staff alter those features instead of asking the game population to apply common sense, we would either re-write the game to the point of extinction, or end up playing in a game where the handbook of rules has more text than all the room descriptions in all the zones combined... and is the only thing that ever gets updated or grows.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

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Postby Gura » Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:38 pm

wow. stupidity at its best.
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Postby Salen » Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:11 am

Corth should be deleted. He afk'd 1W and learned spellcast knowledge when I was gating. I'm sure if you check the logs I'm right. Admin should get right to that.
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Postby Yarash » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:31 am

Problems with the game should be fixed, but they should also not be abused by the players. Duping is a good example.

In regards to being afk during a fight, it is something I do myself when I need to use the bathroom, or am getting a snack or something. I would expect that as long as you come back soon this wouldn't be an issue.

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Postby Shevarash » Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:14 am

1) It's considered botting. You are advancing your character without being at the keys for an extended period of time. I don't see how there's any room for discussion with this. Obviously, the apparent intent of the player contributes to the ruling on each individual situation. In this case, it was obviously for skill practice.

2) Hyldryn was not punished in any fashion.

Its good to hear the feedback on this issue. If neccessary we will update the helpfile to better communicate its intent.
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Hyldryn
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Postby Hyldryn » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:25 pm

Well, the problem is you are classifying it as botting. Botting, as Corth explained, is defined by automated actions. If you want to create a new rule, saying there are innappropriate times to afk, that would be more rational.
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Postby Corth » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:59 pm

Rutro.. so rather than fix the game, the preferred response to the game not working properly is to create rules which may or may not apply depending upon the 'intent' of the player.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Shevarash » Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:28 pm

Hyldryn wrote:Well, the problem is you are classifying it as botting. Botting, as Corth explained, is defined by automated actions. If you want to create a new rule, saying there are innappropriate times to afk, that would be more rational.


I would remind you that Corth is not a staff member, nor is it his job to define the rules here.

Once again, the robot helpfile clearly states in bold red:

"HOWEVER you are running a robot if you leave the
keyboard for an extended amount of time while
continuing to have character activity which allows
you to play the game."

Whether you accomplish this via triggers, voodoo, or the game's own mechanics, it is an automated robot.

Enough said, let's move on to something more productive and less dramatic.
Last edited by Shevarash on Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Shar » Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:29 pm

Just as a note, Hyldryn and his playing syle have never been considered by the staff to be abusive. He was asked a series of questions to which he responded and then asked his own questions which we answered. Everyone involved remained very calm and the issue was resolved peacefully. Honestly, he seemed not to realize what he had been doing was against the rules and because of that, the helpfile(s) will be modified. Plain and simple, we'll try to fix it on our end.

Thanks. And, thanks for finding this and helping us improve our game. :)
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Postby Sonon » Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:07 pm

*cheer shev*
-------------------------------------------------------
Alysia group-says 'Lilen immolates a terrified squirrel to a charred crisp with his devastating inferno!'
-------------------------------------------------------
Lilen group-says 'where are all da trolls i was promised'
Lilen has left the group.
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:33 pm

Shevarash wrote:I would remind you that Corth is not a staff member, nor is it his job to define the rules here.


I just thought this was funny. It reminded me of some commercial where the guy is acting like a surgeon. Someone says 'Hey, are you a doctor?' Guy replies, 'No, but I did stay at the Holiday Inn!'
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Postby kiryan » Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:39 pm

it is news to me also.

I can see the administrations view, but I agree with many that it just seems wrong that you can be botting without any scripted actions.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:56 am

I think cuz it's seems so common sense? If an old lady drops a $100 bill, sure you could take it and she probably won't notice - But it's wrong. It's taking advantage of a situation. I'm not at all saying Hildy did it on purpose, but with the logic that 'it's not in the rules', it's a matter of ambiguity for some.

"HOWEVER you are running a robot if you leave the
keyboard for an extended amount of time while
continuing to have character activity which allows
you to play the game." ---Why is there any dispute? This is obvious. Going AFK while engaged, knowing it's perpetual combat. Boils down to a passive, rather than stacking commands or fired triggers (in)action.

If the first sentence were changed to: "HOWEVER you are cheating if your actions or inactions cause a perpetual situation, in which you can raise skills, or benefit in any fashion."
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Postby Salen » Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:35 am

So when is the Corth deletion? I missed that part.
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Postby Corth » Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:18 am

Guess ill get deleted the next time an aggro walks in on me at 1w :)

Btw, Shev, you didn't know I'm one of the new admins?

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.

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