Fun and Consequences

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Gurns
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Fun and Consequences

Postby Gurns » Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:11 pm

Dear Gods,

Please make the mud fun again. If we screw up, don't save us from ourselves. If we spank, make it so it's hard to get our corpses and gear back, and make it so we can fail the CR. If we lock ourselves in, don't give us the key to get out. If we mess up the zone pop, or steal the keys to the Waterdeep gates, or any of a million other things, let our actions stand. Let our actions have consequences.

Winning is no fun if you can never lose. More generally, if what we do doesn't matter, what's the point?

Thank you,
Gurns
teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:14 pm

The mud is fun. Nothing but love for the mud. Mud... love... love mud.....looooove the mud......
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Postby Grunelda » Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:34 pm

Mud not fun? Muhahahaha far from it!

G
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:12 pm

Hey gurns :P When you feel like speaking for the people, try speaking what they feel, not what you feel. This mud rocks. If it WEREN'T fun, why are there such long term players?
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Postby Teej » Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:49 pm

Thank you.

I remember a nasty spank in Avernus. We died a number of times, and were feeling the stress. I'd done what I could to get some bare minimum of things - got a backpack and waterskin at Minthka, made some rations, so our mages could get back spells - and Gormal handed me some stuff, from his CR gear.

I've never really seen eye to eye with him, but I admired him then. Not only did he have good gear, but he had good backup stuff, and with what we all pulled together we fought back to our corpses. It wasn't easy, but then again - anything that's too easy is hardly worth doing.

I remember a really nasty spank in roots. The first CR team, pieced together from people in the first spank, spanked. And the evils formed up a massive, powerful group, descended upon Anna's basement, and smashed their way through - then were so classy that they gave the belt to the first group.

Thanks for the memories of how things used to be...

And Hello to the lvl 3 alts with the kind of gear Gormal had kept for CR's!
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Postby Sylvos » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:04 pm

Hey Thilindel,

If this mud still ROCKS, if it were still as fun as us long term players remember, why has our average maximum players online decreased steadily to where we're lucky to see 80 maximum people logged in?
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Postby Grunelda » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:19 pm

Well take a look at the state of text muds.. there used to be many many with loads of players. now their are what less than 20 left? And where have the 1000's of new players that have come online in the last two years gone as they got thier first puters and new broadband? 100k players on mulitple game type mmporg servers? There is less and less new blood even knowing about text based games since they see adverts on thier xboxs and ps2 games for graphical games for thier stations and thier PC's. You think out of every 100k ppl that come online to game that even 5 check out text based games?

What do they find when they do? A island of tired worn out old players with a dozen alts longing for the old days to return. kind of sad isnt it?

The mud prolly doesnt need a eq wipe or a pwipe - it needs a player wipe!

Bitchy I know ...
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Postby Grunelda » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:20 pm

btw my guess the majority of ppl making up the small pbase IS those ppl that remember the mud in its prime.
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Postby Sylvos » Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:37 pm

Yes, because a lot of us have fond memories of this place and still hold out hope some of the interest can get put back into it.

For those who think I'm just a bitter old player who doesn't enjoy himself, well that's incorrect. I still love exploring, roaming about, and the occasional time when a zone is actually done by the group that goes.

Tell me though, how much fun do you have when you're not the lurer, and you spend an hour or two sitting in one spot, killing things one at a time as they are lured to you?

How much fun do you have when you die and instead of having the challenge of making your way to your corpse, you just sit in your guildhall and wait to consent the rogue and then wait to consent the resser?

Where is the entertainment in the hurry up and wait method of play, as opposed to the pro-active style that has a group actually moving throughout an area and dealing with encounters as they come?

There are things we can't do anything about. Like massive advertising budgets, the appeal of pretty graphics and drow in bikini's dancing. There's little point to holding those up as the reason why the pbase has declined; yeah it's a huge factor but we can't do anything about it. What we can do something about, is making sure the gameplay we have is engaging and interesting. Making sure that it actually involves the people who are playing, so they have a reason to keep playing.

After all, why do you think people like to get together in groups of 3 or 4 ninja/solo classes to do stuff? Cause they're generally forced to be engaged in their activity. If we can give groups in general that kind of involvement, they come to enjoy the game more, it draws more of their attention and imagination, and people are less likely to get bored and go watch drow in bikini's dancing.
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Postby Grunelda » Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:31 am

Well written Sylvos.

I grudgingly agree with you, the mud would conceivably be more fun if players were more "engaged".

At the same time there is a movement on this mud to cater to the players that have essentially mastered or experienced the majority of the game.

This group is the core, or critical mass of the mud that keeps it going. The group that has decked out alts and such mentioned in a previous post in this thread. They lead the zones and create the guilds and have long experiences here.

As things are made more difficult and challenging for the core group (to meet thier higher expectations) it also becomes more difficult for new players to become engaged in the game. So the very group that keeps the mud alive also keeps it monolithic trying to always meet thier expectations in a upward climb of difficulty.

Now the current Noob who experieces online gaming usually follows a learning curve where they are handed success' in the beginning i.e. the graphical games. When they show up here and learn that they really have to grind out XP till they are 46 till they can even begin to join the core group - well many leave. Only a very special and well regarded few stay.

Thank god for each of them.

I guess when I hear "Make the mud more fun" it makes me think that the mud is also moving in a singular direction to meet the needs of those that have already the most expereince here - w/o much regard for those that follow.

Nothing personal, I admire and respect all the players that I have met here with more expereince than myself. Its thier kindness and friendship that has a Noob like me ignoring the graphical games - and the muds greatest strength.

I guess therein lies the balance for changes in difficulty - the friends available here to make and keep.

G
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Postby Gurns » Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:34 pm

Thanks for your thoughts, G.

When I say "make the mud more fun", I mean something different from some people, and perhaps different from what you're imagining. A big part of what I'd advocate is getting more folks actively involved, as Sylvos discusses above. I've got a couple of long posts about ways to do that here http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org/phpBB2/v ... hp?t=14709

What I mentioned above is that "player actions have should have consequences". This touches on a lot of things. Player choices. Player skill. For example, I think dying should be a Significant Event, so people will actually learn to play well enough to avoid it. The xp zones on the mud, and the lack of a significant trophy system, make dying pretty meaningless, especially at the high end. It's almost like playing a first person shooter game where you keep using the cheat codes to give yourself another life, and another, and another. Back in the day (I generally dislike that phrase, but it's apt), xp at the high end was tough. You had to get it zoning, and you would die in zones. As a mudder, I was a below average player on Soj1 and Toril1, and I figure an average player on Soj2. I never made it to 50 on any of those muds because at the high end, I would die too often. (Waiting one round too long to flee is bad, m'kay?) Well, I made 50 on Soj3, because xp was something that you could just grind out. And Soj3 bards were the hardest class to level. Did my playing skill improve? Naturally I'd like to think so. But most of it was changes in the mud.

So I think my attitude is different from some high level players, who want xp to be easy. Who want to be able to roll up an alt and get to 50 in a few days of ptime. Who want to hop on the mud, find half a dozen folks, zip through a zone with no deaths, and leave. I've played on muds like that. I ended up on Soj/Toril/Soj because after a while, those muds aren't any fun. It's like playing a game in godmode, it's enjoyable once in a while, but it's not something that keeps me coming back. I think a lot of the recent changes in the mud cater to the "easy xp, easy zoning, if you die it's no problem, any player mistake should be reversible" attitude that some players espouse.

So look at xp again. Some players want easy xp, I think it should be hard. But I think removing xp zones and putting in a harsh trophy system would actually help newbies. What would happen? Old timers who rolled an alt would have to go zoning to get xp. It would take them longer to level. And so there would be more chances for true newbies to get a group. And more chances for true newbies to learn how to zone in the easier zones. And more chances for newbies to see more of this huge, amazing world. Instead of an endless grind in Scardale, ship, DS, maybe a few other zones.

Would we lose some old-time players if we make xp harder? Yes. Would it take longer for newbies to level than it does now? Yes. Would newbies have more fun leveling and thus be more likely to stick with the game? I think they'd have a lot more fun. And I think the last is crucial, because we need new players. The old-time players will eventually drift away, no matter what is done to the mud. RL gets us all. So we have to have new players, and I think the easiness of xp actually makes true newbies more likely to leave, as all the old timer alts shoot past them.

Because you're exactly right about the friends. The real strength, the real lasting power of any mud is because of the friendships people make on the mud. People are far more likely to stick with a mud if they have friends there. And friendships develop over time, and (among other reasons) through shared adversity. So an easy mud, where you can pop on for a quick zone, say hi to your current friends, and never make friends with the newbies, is exactly one where newbies will find it difficult to make friends.
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Postby Corth » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:21 pm

Well said Gurns.

I think there are three major aspects of this mud that sorely need to be addressed.

First, as Gurns said in his previous long post, and in this one, the mud needs to be more 'engaging'. From its origins as one of the most challenging muds around, it has devolved to the point that its quite pedestrian. Players are overpowered relative to mobs and zones. Experience is a boring grind. There basically is no such thing anymore as a difficult CR. Several classes have become one-dimensional to the point that little thought is needed to play them. A game without a challenge is one that doesn't have such a good shelf life.

Second, outside of the actual gameplay aspects which Gurns has addressed, we need to make the place more interesting socially. By that, I mean, we need to spice up mud politics. Add a little bit of controversy. I addressed this, albeit indirectly, in my previous post about bringing back artifacts, politics, and god favoritism. <a href="http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14319">Link </a>

Third, and this is the most sensitive area, we need to get more active immortals. We can bring up great ideas all year, but if nobody is in a position to implement such changes, the place will continue to stagnate. I have great respect for the people that volunteer their time to run sojourn, and its difficult to ask for more out of them when they already give so much. However, there is a huge pool of potential coders out there who would gladly help out, and I don't see any of the current mud admins reaching out and trying to tap that pool. Simply put, the immorts have to either step up, bring in more immorts, or turn the mud over to someone who can get the job done.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Dlur » Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:26 am

I can say from experience that one of the funnest times I ever had playing this game is the time that we spanked hard in Cave City back on the 1st Toril and we were all running around with minor created swords and shields trying to get out stuff back for many, many hours as we'd already died with our 1st and 2nd CR EQ sets. The CR took so long and people got so desparate that people were doing anything and everything to get anyone to log on to help. There were old timers coming out of the woodwork to help and to die right alongside us already naked folks.

I ended up going from level 50 down to level 45 that night/day/night and collapsed on my keyboard in total exhaustion once everyone had their gear back. The planning, socializing, fear, sleep deprevation, and execution were all things that I'll never forget. I would have done it all again the very next day given the chance...


Some of my other most memorable moments were the times that I did actually loose all my EQ, once as an old school troll and once as a goody(before you needed consent to ress and I was standing afk on water...) I had an absolute blast and we had such good comradere trying to get me a fresh set of gear all in one night. I helped a couple other people who had as rotten luck as me re-eq and I'd never rolled zones with such speed, precision, and fun as those nights.

The only memorable experience I have from gameplay in Sojourn3 (other than good friends) is the time we did Musp Invasion with me as the only stoner(level 46 conj) for the entire zone and just one cleric. Something to think about.
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Postby Kifle » Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:35 am

Corth wrote:Well said Gurns.

I think there are three major aspects of this mud that sorely need to be addressed.

First, as Gurns said in his previous long post, and in this one, the mud needs to be more 'engaging'. From its origins as one of the most challenging muds around, it has devolved to the point that its quite pedestrian. Players are overpowered relative to mobs and zones. Experience is a boring grind. There basically is no such thing anymore as a difficult CR. Several classes have become one-dimensional to the point that little thought is needed to play them. A game without a challenge is one that doesn't have such a good shelf life.

Second, outside of the actual gameplay aspects which Gurns has addressed, we need to make the place more interesting socially. By that, I mean, we need to spice up mud politics. Add a little bit of controversy. I addressed this, albeit indirectly, in my previous post about bringing back artifacts, politics, and god favoritism. <a href="http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14319">Link </a>

Third, and this is the most sensitive area, we need to get more active immortals. We can bring up great ideas all year, but if nobody is in a position to implement such changes, the place will continue to stagnate. I have great respect for the people that volunteer their time to run sojourn, and its difficult to ask for more out of them when they already give so much. However, there is a huge pool of potential coders out there who would gladly help out, and I don't see any of the current mud admins reaching out and trying to tap that pool. Simply put, the immorts have to either step up, bring in more immorts, or turn the mud over to someone who can get the job done.

Corth


Agreed...especially about the social environment. (just don't like the artifact idea so much.)
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Postby Lahgen » Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:08 pm

Only problem with artifacts is that you couldn't safely use them, if dying did start to become meaningful. :p

I'm thinking the one way that I could accept a more difficult death system is to realize "Okay, I can live with it if I lose my good gear because my groupies cannot dependably CR...it's just gear."

Of course, I suspect, that the answer to that is "make gear harder to get, so you will miss it if you lose it."

Bah...you know, some of us come here to escape from the risks of meaningful loss in life. Why does the mud have to conform to the dynamics of pain and difficulty in life?
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Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Yasden » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:09 pm

Dlur wrote:Some of my other most memorable moments were the times that I did actually loose all my EQ,....once as a goody(before you needed consent to ress and I was standing afk on water...)


Shabay strikes again!
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:35 pm

Lahgen wrote:Bah...you know, some of us come here to escape from the risks of meaningful loss in life. Why does the mud have to conform to the dynamics of pain and difficulty in life?


Because our minds still tell us that there's no real loss here, no matter what we lose, or how hard we have to work to replace it, because we've already done it, we already know the tricks, and in the game, nothing is really permanent.

Oh... and if there's no challenge (risk), eventually the game loses any interest it has whatsoever, because the people who want absolutely no challenge at all are sitting at home watching COPS re-runs for hours at a time because they can't be bothered to find the remote control.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:19 am

Ashiwi wrote:Oh... and if there's no challenge (risk), eventually the game loses any interest it has whatsoever, because the people who want absolutely no challenge at all are sitting at home watching COPS re-runs for hours at a time because they can't be bothered to find the remote control.


So that's what Kifle does IRL! Now I know...

Gurns wrote:Would we lose some old-time players if we make xp harder? Yes. Would it take longer for newbies to level than it does now? Yes. Would newbies have more fun leveling and thus be more likely to stick with the game? I think they'd have a lot more fun. And I think the last is crucial, because we need new players. The old-time players will eventually drift away, no matter what is done to the mud. RL gets us all. So we have to have new players, and I think the easiness of xp actually makes true newbies more likely to leave, as all the old timer alts shoot past them.


I'm not quite sure how you can qualify a statement like the above. I don't think the world as a whole wants anything to be harder. I don't think your average new game player wants to be challenged overly much. One of the best things about leveling is attaining new skills/power and being able to explore new places safely. Adding more time to the development of a character isn't necessarily going to provide a more enjoyable journey.

Personally, I would rather see a more exponential system in place, starting after level 25. Allow those first 25 to go along smoothly, with attainable goals and what not. Access to new spells and new things is nice and neat. By the time you reach 25, you're already looking towards 36 and zoning. That's when I believe you are really going to be hooked. Making rabbits kill you in 1 hit again, and magic missiles have a chance to miss at first level is just going to frustrate any new game player.

Take a look at the world this MUD has grown up in. The text-based game flourished because of the DnD people, and the mentality. It gained popularity because at the time it was the only real offering for poor college kids without the money for newer games. I don't think we can expect the same mentality from the new generation.

Times have changed, and we cannot expect to hold people's attention for long if things are made overly difficult at the beginning. Even the casual gamer is going to find it frustrating if you place too much emphasis on xp. It's already a boring as hell task. I don't care if you do it w/ 5 rangers cycle-tanking or not. It's too repetitive and there needs to be other ways of obtaining xp.

Find a way to make the first few levels challenging, but rewarding with a moderate level of challenge, and up the challenge later on to reflect the greater powers bestowed at higher levels.

And for the love of god, move DS somewhere else, and make zone mobs w/o eq worth killing.

My .02

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Postby Botef » Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:56 pm

Gurns wrote:...Would it take longer for newbies to level than it does now? Yes. Would newbies have more fun leveling and thus be more likely to stick with the game? I think they'd have a lot more fun. And I think the last is crucial, because we need new players.


I disagree with this 100% because of what I've seen from a fairly large handful of new players I've tried to introduce, or in some cases reintroduce to this mud.

The #1 complaint I get from new players is XP is long, and well boring as hell. Killing the same mobs repeativily over and over, day in and day out is only exciting for so long.

Just about everyone I have introduced has left, with a few that still occasionally log to try to reach the 40+ mark. They leave more than anything because XP is boring, and they see no reason to spend months and months doing it if there not going to be able to do something else like zone till there 40.

Harder XP wont make the mud more fun for new players. What new players want, espeically after hitting 20th, is to experience something OTHER than XP. I think older players forget that, forget that those simple zones we twink every boot our actully NEW and EXCITING to see, to be lead through, to get low end EQ from. In all honesty, thats what makes new players stick with it. They have fun, they want more, and they have the motivation to push on with the XP to do something harder.
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Postby Gurns » Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:51 pm

Botef wrote:
Gurns wrote:...Would it take longer for newbies to level than it does now? Yes. Would newbies have more fun leveling and thus be more likely to stick with the game? I think they'd have a lot more fun. And I think the last is crucial, because we need new players.


I disagree with this 100% because of what I've seen from a fairly large handful of new players I've tried to introduce, or in some cases reintroduce to this mud.

The #1 complaint I get from new players is XP is long, and well boring as hell. Killing the same mobs repeativily over and over, day in and day out is only exciting for so long.

That's exactly my point. "Doing xp" is boring. Xp zones are boring. BUT old-timers "do xp" because they can. Newbies do xp because they are told that's what they have to do to "get zonable".

That's exactly the opposite of what the mud should encourage. There are dozens of zones for all levels. People shouldn't be "doing xp" at lvl 10, they should be doing lvl 10 zones. They shouldn't be "doing xp" at lvls 20 and 30 and 40, they should be doing appropriate zones. Finding these zones, exploring them, beating mobs that are challenging for you at your level: That's what's fun about the mud, and easy xp has completely ruined all of that.

But, as I have noted in other posts, if there's an easy, safe way, players will take it. So, the mud should get rid of easy, safe xp. Put in a harsh trophy system, so to level up, players have to go to many different zones. Make xp harder in this way (not by making untrophied mobs give less xp), and old-timers alts will actually have to get a group together, more than 3 or 4 people they already know, and will have to go out and do those simple zones they've blown off for the last three years. And, since we're mostly nice people around here, we'll include newbies in those groups. And grouping is what will keep the newbies here: If they get into groups, they'll keep coming back.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:22 pm

Easy xp are the suck.
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Postby sok » Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:31 am

Wow. nice post botef. i totally forgot about zoning during low lvl. But it was fun doing ud for scale mail. or going to svnir (however it's spell) to get some ring. i rmember bodycloak being cool.

i think i might actually start leading some low levels a bit.

but here's the problem.

people give better eq to newbies than the eq they get from these zone. i dont really know if newbie will actually enjoy zoning for junk. but i will post my results in a couple of weeks
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Postby Ambar » Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:39 am

[quote="sok"]people give better eq to newbies than the eq they get from these zone. /quote]

think thats 100% true
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Postby Corth » Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:46 am

probably would need to put level restrictions on gear or conduct an eq wipe in order to make newbies goto newbie zones..

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Dlur » Thu Jan 06, 2005 1:57 am

Yasden wrote:
Dlur wrote:Some of my other most memorable moments were the times that I did actually loose all my EQ,....once as a goody(before you needed consent to ress and I was standing afk on water...)


Shabay strikes again!


Yeah, didn't want to say it, but that's exactly what happened heh.
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Postby Corth » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:20 am

Heh.. reminds me of the time I was tanking a dock master for my little noob group, and next thing i knew, I was standing at 3W in res effect and the dock master was picking up all my gear.. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby sok » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:37 am

she probably thought a group v 1 dockie was unfair.
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Re: Fun and Consequences

Postby Gura » Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:42 am

Gurns wrote:Dear Gods,

Please make the mud fun again. If we screw up, don't save us from ourselves. If we spank, make it so it's hard to get our corpses and gear back, and make it so we can fail the CR. If we lock ourselves in, don't give us the key to get out. If we mess up the zone pop, or steal the keys to the Waterdeep gates, or any of a million other things, let our actions stand. Let our actions have consequences.

Winning is no fun if you can never lose. More generally, if what we do doesn't matter, what's the point?

Thank you,
Gurns


agree 100%. and also for me...some of my fondest memories here are from nasty CRs.
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Postby Botef » Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:09 pm

sok wrote:Wow. nice post botef. i totally forgot about zoning during low lvl. But it was fun doing ud for scale mail. or going to svnir (however it's spell) to get some ring. i rmember bodycloak being cool.

i think i might actually start leading some low levels a bit.

but here's the problem.

people give better eq to newbies than the eq they get from these zone. i dont really know if newbie will actually enjoy zoning for junk. but i will post my results in a couple of weeks


From everyone I've talked to, they dont care about eq. If nothing else its something they can make a few plats off of, which to them is better than none for most new players, and spend it on auction or somewhere else.
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Postby Kifle » Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:06 pm

Tasan wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:Oh... and if there's no challenge (risk), eventually the game loses any interest it has whatsoever, because the people who want absolutely no challenge at all are sitting at home watching COPS re-runs for hours at a time because they can't be bothered to find the remote control.


So that's what Kifle does IRL! Now I know...



No, I watch re-runs of The Price is Right. COPS is boring.
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Postby Iaiken Toransier » Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:16 pm

Teej wrote:Thank you.

I remember a nasty spank in Avernus. We died a number of times, and were feeling the stress. I'd done what I could to get some bare minimum of things - got a backpack and waterskin at Minthka, made some rations, so our mages could get back spells - and Gormal handed me some stuff, from his CR gear.

I've never really seen eye to eye with him, but I admired him then. Not only did he have good gear, but he had good backup stuff, and with what we all pulled together we fought back to our corpses. It wasn't easy, but then again - anything that's too easy is hardly worth doing.

I remember a really nasty spank in roots. The first CR team, pieced together from people in the first spank, spanked. And the evils formed up a massive, powerful group, descended upon Anna's basement, and smashed their way through - then were so classy that they gave the belt to the first group.

Thanks for the memories of how things used to be...

And Hello to the lvl 3 alts with the kind of gear Gormal had kept for CR's!


Bahahaha I remember that, I was a member of that evil group, we were just comming off doing JOT for iceberry for my gate quest and TURG ATE IT!!! (By accident of course, was my fault for not telling him.)

But it wasn't that hard for us to get a group together we just added a few mroe and went in with 3 trolls tanking the lead. MAN you guys left a lot of roots down there.

I was never involved in a spank on the evil side, but on the goodies I've been lead straight down spank street by Morithiel 3 or 4 times. We were the first group to spank onthe upgraded archie... or near the first. Good times....
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Postby Lahgen » Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:36 am

While I'm not opposed to difficulty per se, I have two problems with the current suggestions:

1. What you're suggesting is tantamount to changing the game right out from under me.
2. Moreover, you state things as though being difficult is the only valid way to advance.

So then...if you have any gear you have on that you didn't sweat every moment for, and felt totally off balance when you adventured to get it, pond it now.

Does labor exist for the sake of man? Or does man exist for the sake of labor? Is our progress illegitimate just because it's easier than it probably should be?
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Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Corth » Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:55 pm

Lahgen,

I don't think that Gurns is questioning anyone's legitimacy. He's making a very general point that in order for any game to be fun, there needs to be rewards for good gameplay, and consequences for bad gameplay.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Grunelda » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:01 pm

Well said Corth.

Also I think thier needs to be a curve to that. Much like Botef's experiences I came to the mud recently compared to many others here. As some of my new mud friends became bored they left. I tried to get other "gamers" I knew to join in and even eq'd some of them.

But.

The constant xp grind killed off thier desire to play rather quickly. Every time I asked about why the word repetitive and grind came up.

We used to have lots of players because the choices were fewer, but time and improvements in the world of online gaming have changed that.

Better be willing to cater on the low end to capture/hook players and then offer challenges to those that stay.

New players right now will cite that they are often "told" and "see" that this game doesnt really start till 46.

Making Zone xp better, even xp for non-eq mobs would rock, there are lots of good ideas in this thread. But the F&C should get geometrically more difficult after 46?

G
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:40 pm

Corth wrote:probably would need to put level restrictions on gear or conduct an eq wipe in order to make newbies goto newbie zones..

Corth


Putting level restrictions on items is the absolute fastest way to get me to stop playing a MUD...

Granted, I already stopped playing here... but I wouldn't be surprised if there were others who felt like that.
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Postby Savras » Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:12 pm

What if exp across the board were reset to default levels, then non-aggro mobs gave 1/2 exp and aggro mobs gave double exp? Would this solve some of the abovementioned issues? This would mean zoning low level aggro zones would give 4x the exp of grinding in a safe exp zone.

Or would this be too harsh?

1/2 and 2x? or 1x and 2x? or 1x and 1.5x?

Not saying this is going to happen, but curious about opinions on the issue.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:43 pm

Just make everyone happy, and leave the current mud up where it is, and then through up a copy of the mud reverted back to the days of monks and sorcs and let people play whichever one they want.
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:36 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:Just make everyone happy, and leave the current mud up where it is, and then through up a copy of the mud reverted back to the days of monks and sorcs and let people play whichever one they want.


The copied mud you start naked. Arilin deserves one big F'n HELL YEAH! For that idea :P

For the XP adjustment idea, I'd personally like to see it more rewarding to have a group. The larger the group, the larger the xp per mob - This way you won't see 3 man groups in xp and them tellin you there's no more room. Literally, in the last 2 days, I've been the only one on the pirate ship, save for neset, who's a gamblin man.
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Postby Gurns » Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:24 pm

Lahgen wrote:What you're suggesting is tantamount to changing the game right out from under me.

TorilMUD has changed many times over the years, in many ways, large and small. It has changed in many ways even in the time you've been around. It will change in the future. If you want an unchanging game, this isn't the place. So the question is not whether it will change, but how it should change.

Lahgen wrote:Moreover, you state things as though being difficult is the only valid way to advance.

I repeat Corth's phrasing here: "rewards for good gameplay and consequences for bad gameplay." Right now, there are few consequences for bad gameplay. Right now, levels are a reward based on perseverance and ptime. It is only the most unskilled, or those with little time to play, that can't get 50. (Or those who have avoided it by choice.) I think there should be sufficient consequences for poor gameplay that if you can't play your class well, you don't get to 50. That doesn't mean it should be hard to get to 10. It does mean that by level 10, people realize this isn't a game that they can casually log on for 10 minutes, every few days, and win. And it does mean that the average player should stall out in the mid to high 40s.

That is, I am stating that "being difficult" should be the only valid way to advance to the highest levels. It's called a meritocracy. If some folks are lvl 50 and I stall out at 45, I would like to know that it's because they are better players than I am, and not because they're breaking the rules, exploiting a bug in the code, having mudsex with the gods, or bought an artifact by sending the gods real money. If I'm lvl 50, I want it to mean something, and not share that level with people who don't know how to get from Turning Point to Split Shield.

I've played easy muds. I've played easy desktop games. They have no replay value, they aren't fun for more than a few days. I've been on TorilMUD since six months after it opened, and I've kept coming back, because the challenges of the mud had to be overcome by skillful play, and there was always more to learn. More importantly, challenges had to be overcome by the skillful play of a whole group. Doing the hard zones meant that you needed a full group of lvl 46+ who knew how to play their class. I don't see that anymore. Groups beat zones by perseverance and by what I consider twinking. Much of it is "valid" twinking, in that it's a legal part of the game. But these techniques mean that a difficult zone can be defeated with a small group of players, and some of them don't even need to know what they're doing. Is that fun? Once in a while, sure. Long term? Nope.

Lahgen wrote:Does labor exist for the sake of man? Or does man exist for the sake of labor? Is our progress illegitimate just because it's easier than it probably should be?

It's a game. It's not economics, government, philosophy, or law. There is no contract. We're talkin' Groucho and Chico, not Karl. The notion of "legitimacy" or "rights" does not apply.

The question is what keeps people entertained. I'm not saying it should take a year to get to 50, if you're skillful. I am saying it shouldn't be doable in 5 days of ptime, no matter how good you are. I'm not saying that only the l33t should make it past 10. I am saying that only the l33t should make it to 50.

I understand there are people who will disagree with this. Who want an easy, less skill-intensive, less time-intensive game. That's fine, I think that should be available for them here on TorilMUD, and I think it is available to them currently. At the lower levels. If you want to log on 30 minutes a day, every couple of days, I think there is plenty for you to do, in terms of zones, quests, and exploring. But if that's how much you're playing, and if you're not regularly trying to get more out of your class, I think you should be playing at lvl 20 to 30. Right now, a big problem at those levels is finding other PCs to play with, and part of the reason for that is because of easy xp and the notion that "the only game is at 50". I think both easy xp and that notion are bad for the mud. And I think part of the reason that notion is sustained is because anybody can get 50.

It's because the mud is not difficult, because there is no challenge, that there is only one game in town, the game at 50. Anyone can get there, lots of people get there pretty fast. The game from 1 to the mid-40s is lost, gone by so fast that no one is really playing it. To make TorilMUD easier would exacerbate this even more. It's only by making things more difficult that the game would spread out, that would make TorilMUD many different games from 1 to 50. That would give people more to do, increase replay value, and increase the amount of entertainment the game provides.
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Postby rer » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:43 pm

I see a few problems with having 2 Toril Servers...

1. PBase is small enough as it is. If we make a competing MUD, we're just asking to split the PBase (anyone else remember the Duris/Toril split?) It took a long time to regain enough players on either server to make the game viable.

2. God Base is small enough too. We'd have to get a second set of coders, admin, forgers, etc. for the second MUD. Either that, or have really exhausted Imms trying to run two muds, when they're working their asses off trying to keep people happy on one.

3. If the second is supposed to be a "copy", then we'd have to have some mechanism to replicate what happens on one in the other. Not sure that this is what you meant though, so maybe the idea was just to add monks, etc. back on the second version, and have it develop on it's own?
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Postby Corth » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:48 pm

Great post, Gurns.

For what its worth, I don't think the main point is making experience more difficult to obtain... its making it more fun to obtain. Or, to put it in the context of your previous thread, to make experience more 'engaging.' There is nothing fun, nothing challenging, and nothing particularly interesting about killing the same mobs over and over again. People are rewarded with levels for having enough time and patience to grind out exp for a few hundred hours. I'm not sure thats a healthy system of incentives for a game. I'm not sure we want a mud populated by such people. Its been a theory of mine for a while that the god's tendency to appease the mediocre majority has driven away a lot of the more dynamic players who the mediocre should aspire to be like.

The goal of the gods should be to make one's level into a reflection of their skill playing a particular class. It would be impossible to ever fulfill that goal, but it should guide their actions when building this game. Grinding out high levels in safe exp zones does not further this goal. Rather, the gods need to create incentives towards players obtaining 'engaging' exp, and create disincentives towards obtaining 'grind' exp. This is a simple enough thing to accomplish. You simply up the exp that people can obtain within zones, at all levels, and lower the exp they get from the safe and easy exp zones.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby rer » Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:04 pm

Ok, so, somehow Gurns managed to get that massive post in before my response... hehe.

Anyhow... Great post Gurns!

I agree with what you and Corth have said. Personally, I refuse to do "grind" exp as Rer anymore. I think it's pointless and boring, so I'm "stalled" at 47 for right now. I'll get 50 eventually, as my PTime goes up and I have the ability to zone more, but I'm not in any rush. I'm happy playing my character because I'm only doing the fun stuff, zones that are engaging, helping friends, and spending some idle time just chatting. I know that my method doesnt work for everyone, but I know that I am extatic when I gain 10% of exp in a week doing 2-3 zones. It may take 12 hours of ptime to get that 10%, but it's a much more rewarding 10% than I would ever hope to get from killing treants and cyclops and giants, despite taking 10 times as long.

That being said, it is possible to rid yourself of the "grind" exp as it is. Maybe not common, but possible. And I know that because of my attitude, I'm a better player for it. I'm certainly not the best warrior in the game, but I definitely know how to play my class, and enjoy playing it. And the most rewarding part is that I know that when I hit 50, I will be a 1337 player, because I took the time to develop, to grow, to learn.

Yes, I wish all players followed this type of thought - we'd have a lot less level 50 players who don't know when to bash, when to rescue, or "how to get from TP to Split Shield".

Just throwing in my 2 cents.
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Postby sok » Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:18 pm

We currently have spell quest. How about makeing lvl quest.

Making it so so you have to get an item frm a mid-lvl zone and give to your guild master before you can gain lvl 31. anot at 36. ano at 41. ano 45 and 46. but for 47 you need at least 2 lvl 47 token frm 2 different zone. lvl 48 would need 3. lvl 49 would need 4. and lvl 50 would need (2) frm 5 zone for a total of 10.

I think it might be a little excessive to require one before lvl 31. and i think the item should be from the boss mob frm that zone, but not only restricted to just one zone. i believe there should be this same item on 5 different mob bosses. either one of these item would work to lvl them. this would encourage them to go to different zone because this particular one has already been done.

i dont really know a lot of the lower zone, so here an example of the higher ones.

jot can have a lvl 46 token on thrym and one on loki. so by doing jot, you can lvl 2 people up to lvl 46. brass can have also have a lvl 46 one on padashaw and sultan. ic vault and werewolf can have a lvl 46 token. lava pendant mob can have lvl 46 token. tf can have a lvl 47 one on grey-green mob & jabberwock. the lava mob in crypt can have a lvl 47 token as well. roots can have lvl 47. thak & mogdath can have lvl 48 token each. beholder in mh can have lvl 48 token.

lvl 50 token can be in cloud, mansc, ic2, seelie, spob, hulburg, oakvale, md, izan, avernus, magma, and all the other lvl 50 only zones.

this will mean that when u have gotten to lvl 50, people will have an idea of what zones you have done.

sok
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Postby rer » Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:49 pm

That's a really cool idea Sok! I especially like that you started it at level 31 - that gets the powerlevelers out of the "grind" mode for a bit and forces them to zone at a smaller size than they would otherwise, forcing them to start thinking of their character's zoneable features earlier.
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Postby kiryan » Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:14 am

---sok---
how many dozens of Q scales are lieing around from CC because its used in only a couple quests.

I'd suggest you make the token's !rent or better yet, make it based on in the room and grouped when a specific mob dies so you can't get it for your alts or come in when its safe.


-------

fun...

as far as making the game more fun, i think alot of you are confusing "memorable experiences" with fun and you are forgetting that fun for you is not fun for me. Rarely is being forced to do something "fun" notice the frequent bitching about exp. how many of you consider re-exping a failed ress on your enchanter "fun"? or having to sit around for ress effects because some moron didn't have enough exp and is "going to lose skills" How many of us consider it "fun" to religiously hunt an assload rare only to have someone snipe it because they could get a group faster? How much fun is it to have invasion located throughout boot rather than finding it? How much fun is it to sit at 3w because your class sucks or your not popular enough to get a group? How much fun is it to get everything given to you, how much fun is it to never have what you want?

some random comments

Jalahon's 8 hour spob trips are sometimes fun, but when its 4am on a work night, im not having fun.

doing Bronze Citadel for 5 hours and having it crash is not "fun"

cring Avernus naked with repopping patrols was fun the first 2 times.

doing Manscorps then seer kings and having maxler die on the 2nd to last fight right before it crashes and having to CR his eqd corpse would not be fun. thank god the corpse was transed.

having to curse my weapons because i could lose them to a crash is not fun.

being able to get only one or two things out at a time because my inventory is cluttered with stupid cursed weapons is not fun.

losing a prized posession in a "stream" because you got zapped over water is not fun.

waiting over 2 years for tiamat to come back in is not fun.
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