Dragon Feedback

[Lilira]

Something Hubby and I have batted back and forth...

%damage on a couple of attacks.

I'm sorry, but when I play my mage, I stand back and blast,, I let the dumn guys with the big stabby/slashy,, err,,, the fine upstanding wonderful warriors who love to protect harmless innocent little bards/mages like myself, go up and actually beat on the things. A caster who has spells flying at the dragon should perhaps take less damage from things like wing buffet and tail sweep as well as claw and bite attacks simply because they AREN'T standing there dancing in front of the dragon yelling EAT ME.

Perhaps something where if you aren't actively engaged with the beast you only take a certain % of the damage instead of the whole enchilada.

Just an idea, don't beat me.

By the way,, being on the otherside of the dragon code ROCKED!!!

*wanders off whistling a chipper tune.*

[Disoputlip]

There is beeing done less zonage now.

Zones are totally messed up compared to how they are designed. Eg. is hardest fight in Izan the entry dragon now.

Ancestral dragons used to take 10 highlevels. Now I saw 14 cool ppl take it to small wounds.

----

I really like the fact that dragons breath what it says in the AD&D rules. But the whole balance with 10 ppl being able to do ancestral dragon should be kept for all existing dragons I think

[Pril]

Diso the problem is that ashield dragons used to take 5 really good people or 2 people if it was a good rogue and elementalist...

[Vahok]

Diso the problem is that ashield dragons used to take 5 really good people or 2 people if it was a good rogue and elementalist...

Now the problem is it takes one dragon to make 15 pcorpses! :)

[Ashiwi]

Isn't that the way it should be? As hard as it is now, the more dragons players go against, the easier they will become. I really hope a whole bunch of downgrades to the new system don't go in too quickly, because it takes a while for people to get the swing of something new. After the first cries of "too hard" things end up being made so easy that in three months, it's back to being a cakewalk, even with the improvements.

So can an elementalist still solo a dragon? I know Inama didn't need me to get the job done... I just made things easier.

[Pril]

Players are adjusting nicely, last night we smote izan's dragon with just one death (and it was a player who forogt to get pfg up)

Let the changes stay a while longer, let players adjust.

[Nooblet]

Just one overall observation/question after looking at the dragon fights logs:

Why on EARTH aren't ALL undead immune to dragon yell? Why aren't all paladins immune as well?? Why does dragon yell keep making you flee out? It'd seem after the 'roid lizard scared you once or twice, that the yell would trickle in its ability to freak you out EACH time it holla's out! On the news, HAMSTRING works less and less with each success. Why is this not the case for forced fleeing? Maybe I'm just full of crap, but I'd see any very high level warrior virtually immune to fleeing. It would also seem logical that you can 'dodge' buffet. In that, I mean if you make a save, you get knocked down, but tumble effectively to only partially take the hit/throw.

[Yasden]

To Shevarash:

Ok, this might be a bit long-winded. I also have no clue what the exact schematics are for the new code, but I'm hoping this work wasn't done in vain. I spent a while preparing this, especially having to throw out the nice HTML tables I did up in favor of this retarded BBC list option (that doesn't allow spacing that I could tell :P)

Most of this is in reply to the actual damage itself done by the special attacks, however I will point out a few other areas.

The major flaw dragons lack right now, I believe, is the concept of age differentiation. Age differentiation determines so much about the dragon; in particular, size. Size itself directly infers what abilities a dragon can possess, and how much damage they can do. In the 3rd edition of AD&D, you will find the following categories and age groups of dragons (which I believe also carries over from 2nd for the most part):

1) Wyrmling - 0-5 Years
2) Very Young - 6-15 Years
3) Young - 16-25 Years
4) Juvenile - 26-50 Years
5) Young Adult - 51-100 Years
6) Adult - 101-200 Years
7) Mature Adult - 201-400 Years
8) Old - 401-600 Years
9) Very Old - 601-800 Years
10) Ancient - 801-1,000 Years
11) Wyrm - 1,001-1,200 Years
12) Great Wyrm - 1,201+ Years

Also, you will find the standardized types of sizes, humans being medium-sized:

Tiny
Small
Medium-Size
Large
Huge
Gargantuan
Colossal

Based on 3rd edition's Monster Manual (I haven't gamed in years and don't have access to the 2nd edition book to find discrepancies), there are three (3) general trends for size based on the age category of dragons. Each race of dragon follows one of these trends, and I can give those to you, as well. Using the first letter as the initial, and splitting first trend from second from third using /, they are as follows:

1) Wyrmling - T/S/M
2) Very Young - S/M/L
3) Young - M/M/L
4) Juvenile - M/L/L
5) Young Adult - L/L/H
6) Adult - L/H/H
7) Mature Adult - H/H/H
8) Old - H/H/G
9) Very Old - H/H/G
10) Ancient - H/G/G
11) Wyrm - G/G/G
12) Great Wyrm - G/G/C

The list of dragons based by trend are as follows:

Trend 1: Black, White, Brass, Copper, Sapphire, Deep, Fang, Shadow, Song, Mercury, Steel, Yellow
Trend 2: Blue, Green, Bronze, Silver, Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Topaz, Mist
Trend 3: Red, Gold, Brown, Cloud

Note: Mercury, Steel, Yellow, Cloud, Mist dragons are not listed in the manuals, so guesswork was done based on 2nd ed. research.

Having stated that, there is a chart listed in this book that determines attacks and their damage based on *size*. Granted, there will always be exceptions to any set norm, so don't deduce that anything has to be set in stone.

Size.....................1 Bite.....2 Claws.....2 Wings.....1 Tail Slap.....1 Crush.....1 Tail Sweep

Tiny..................1d4........1d3
Small................1d6........1d4
Medium-sized...1d8........1d6.........1d4
Large...............2d6........1d8.........1d6..............1d8
Huge................2d8........2d6.........1d8..............2d6................2d8
Gargantuan.....4d6........2d8.........2d6..............2d8................4d6...............2d6
Colossal...........4d8........4d6.........2d8..............4d6................4d8...............2d8

Obviously, these dice values are based on the tabletop system, and would have to be modified based on the percentage differentiation between size groups. I know that the current changes were based off information in the Draconomicon, so this information isn't as specific and detailed in regards to special attacks.

The obvious problem right now is the amount of damage being done by these special attacks. The initial rate was toned down, which was a great start, and the change in breath weapon damage was another improvement as well. Breath weapon damage by age group varies per dragon race, so I won't post that here, although I can give it to you if you wish.

Last night, we attempted to kill the bronze dragon required for the Ancestral Shield quest. With 4 invokers and 1 illithid, we were unable to take the dragon past small wounds because it wing buffeted (300 damage each time) 3 times in 4 rounds. As stated previously, the amount of damage on these attacks has caused the death of a dragon to be more of a factor of brute force and luck than player skills/tactics now.

Spell-ups, other than vitality and GRP, seem to be pretty much a moot point, as these special attacks have no sort of save that I have noticed. It also appears that dragons now are automatically given a set assortment of classes. Those particular dragons required for the Ancestral Shield quest did not used to play the role of cleric until this change, which made a 2nd attempt at trying this dragon undoable.

Also, I am aware that dragon race is determined by the keyword (or lack thereof) given to it by the areamaker. As well, the original wing buffet skill was based off the level of the dragon, being that the dragon was unable to do this unless it was greater than 52nd level.

So, here is my thought on the situation (crisis) at hand. Perhaps coding a system of incremental damages based on the size of the dragon, therefore determining what abilities it has (or lacks) would be the best route to this problem. I personally (and I'm sure most of the high level experienced playerbase would as well) have no problem with a great wyrm dragon being extremely difficult to kill, as by general rule there should be very few of these, even with the large number of dragons the MUD has.

In creating this system, you can give access to these tables by setting the age keyword on the dragon. This, combined with race of the dragon, would easily give the drake a general range of difficulty. As well, you can base the level system off this as well. The current in-game drakes could be keyworded based off their level or description or purpose (difficulty) to balance the ones players are already accustomed to.

For example, a level 55 black dragon could be flagged as a very old dragon (perhaps using the moniker keyword VO), and its size and abilities and breath weapon damage would be set as such. However, it wouldn't be set to a great wyrm because of the large level difference. In retrospect, a level 59 of the same race could be anything from very old to great wyrm, depending on what the dragon's intention was.

Basically, using level would mostly just determine the dragon's hitpoints by default (unless custom hand-set).

Another subject I wanted to address was the abilities/misuse of the dragonkin flag. Last weekend, I led a trip to TTF (right after the first change). In the corpse pit, there is a beast that was given the dragonkin flag specifically just for the roar effect. This beast is an otyugh. When we went into this fight, we lost half the group and had to make a second run because the mob did everything *but* breathe. Fortunately, enough of the mobs were dead by the 2nd run that I was able to utilize shieldpunch to lag it from doing any sort of skills. This same tactic was employed (shieldpunch/charge) against CC dragons before the change, as it works well against dragonkin mobs.

As you're aware, most of the dragonkin mobs in the game were given that flag purely for the roar effect due to lack of a large selection of race flags back in the Soj1/Toril1 era. I believe that if you were to turn the roar into a proc enabled by mob keyword ("roar" maybe?), and change the racial flags on said mobs, the carnage would be much less.

Hopefully you find some insight and inspiration in these ideas. I'm available if you need to ask me any more specific questions.

Thanks for your time,

Targsk (aka Deathmagnet)

[fotex]

Yes, Areas will be updated if neccessary, but of course after we get a feel for the difficulty level of the new dragons.

So, have you gotten a feel for the difficulty level yet? :P

[Salen]

Since a comprehensive review of dragons is obviously needed, how about making the things that are NOT DRAGONS not be dragons?

There are a number of things in game that,
Buffet and shouldn't,
Cast and shouldn't,

and with the change probably
claw,bite, roar and shouldn't

[Sarell]

Hellhounds atm tailsweep, fly into the air and slam you and do some other flying trick... i think they bite too?... Hellhounds from oakvale, musp, temple of moon... not sure where else need to be looked at.

[Demuladon]

Perhaps the dragons involved in spellquests should have their levels halved.

[Drogga]

for me the damage that dragon does from the proc and such is ridiculous and abit too much. the proc is cool but the damage need to be tuned down abit. or if u choose not to tune down the damage, lesser the proc then.

[Jhorr]

The changes to dragons have really unbalanced the zones and quests that contain dragons. Dragons are now avoided like the plague. Nobody wants to attempt them as they are. When you recruit for a zone, people are like "are there dragons? no? good ok then."

[Yayaril]

8)

In one of my lastest DnD games, the half orc cleric and my dwarven wizard wrestled an adult black dragon to a pin after I shot it with an empowered ray of enfeeblement. We kept it pinned and humiliated until it told us where its hoard was, then we let it go limping off to cry to its mama. Now that's how a real dragon fight should work.

[Llaaldara]

The changes to dragons have really unbalanced the zones and quests that contain dragons. Dragons are now avoided like the plague. Nobody wants to attempt them as they are. When you recruit for a zone, people are like "are there dragons? no? good ok then."

I guess I'm the one exception.

[Pril]

nah i'll do dragons any day any time, look me up

Pril

[rer]

I'm up for dragons - they don't scare me!!

[kiryan]

I like what targsk has to say. I'd like to add my perspective.

young dragons - 5 man
mature - 8-12 man
adult dragons - 12-15 man
ancient dragons - 15 man
named dragons - a superior 15 man

I think theres a serious problem with distribution / classification of in game dragons. I've always bitched about dragons being all over the place in the realms, but now that they are quite a bit more than sheep, I'd push for reclassifying most of the in game dragons. I would really like us to preserve the difficulty of ancient dragons, I happen to like being challenged (slaughtered) routinely.

In particular the ancestral shield dragons should not be ancient dragons imo... ancient dragons do not wander around the world in general, they are usually found in their lair and should have a real lair, not a 2 room hole off the side of the road to WD. I want to stop seeing ancient dragons chained to castle walls and hanging out with people as their pets...

[fotex]

Indeed, the ancestral shield quest and ball lightning quest represent the low end of the creativity scale. They don't add any character to the world, but just make it look cheesier, with their dragons/mobs loading anywhere in the realm w/o any regard to theme.

Spell quests like siphon undead are much more interesting, and actually add to the world, as they fit nicely in to the environment they are put.

[Sarell]

I really like the way the ancestral shield quest runs. Even if occasionally you do get a dragon in a funny spot, it gives people a reasonable chance to find them, without having to battle into many harsh zones, where as if they were just in one spot people would just ask where or you would need more clues to find them. The actual quest itself is entertaining too especially when doing it without being told how first. I really don't see a problem at all in having to battle 4 big hard dragons to gain a level 10 quest spell.

I think our global load sysem adds loads of character to the world. Sure beats everything loading in the same spot all the time, especially a big fatty flying thing.

[Thilindel]

8)

In one of my lastest DnD games, ....

OMG, Sok...Yaya's got almost 3k in posts. You lazy ass! You'd better get busy posting! Remember to put an '*' besides the titles on ones that aren't ass kissin Gura tho :P

[kiryan]

currently, its not occasionally you run into an ancient dragon in a funny spot... these ancient dragons are often found along well traveled paths.

ancient dragons don't roam the lands according to dragon lore, they are like 99% chance to be found in their lair.

If you wanna keep them ancient dragons, i suggest at least 4 of them have dragon lairs created, and have a 2% chance to load in the world, and a 98% chance to load in their lair.

[Yayaril]

8)

I think people wouldn't mind the dragon upgrades so much if they actually h ad hoards..

[Salen]

Prolly a code pain, but id 10-15 places away from civilization, and link them all as random loads for the lair to be.

[sok]

in dragonlance it seem like dragons where very common and they will killing dragons left and right.

not that i like dragons. hey i haven't done ic2 since dragon were upgraded.

[Llaaldara]

in dragonlance it seem like dragons where very common and they will killing dragons left and right.

not that i like dragons. hey i haven't done ic2 since dragon were upgraded.

According to what sources?

I read the original dragonlance chronicles and they were far from fighting dragons around every turn in the road.

[sok]

as the story got further along killing dragon didnt' seem like a big deal. so i interpret it as just smiting them left and right. i could be wrong.

[Ashiwi]

Well, this isn't Dragonlance, it's Forgotten Realms, but I think Sok is close. Almost every story thread I've read of the genre has a dragon tucked away somewhere. If you count all the dragons in all the stories published in the world theme, that's a buttload of scaly hide and bad breath.

[Llaaldara]

Dragonlance campaign theme was based on dragons. Yes. I heartedly agree. I also agree that most of the books seemed based around killing a dragon at one point or another. Also agree that Dragonlance != Forgotten Realms.

But I don't agree Raistlen and the bunch were just walking along any old trail/merchant path and were like (although this seems to be the case here on Toril):

A Well Traveled Path Everyone Takes Regularly Close by Major Cities
Hey a bard. "Hello Lilira."
Hey a merchant. "Hail and well met Teflor, merchant of the great house of Three West. Tell us kind sir, do you have salted pork for sale? A salesman told me it is of the finest quality!"
Hello traveling scribe. "Sarvis, have you met Lilira?"
"No but I've met the.. OMFG A LIGHTNING DRAGON!!"
Mounted goat warrior Gormal burps a dragonlance projectile at great wyrm lightning dragon.
A great wyrm lightning dragon is dead.
R.I.P.
You receive your share of the experience.
"Yaaaaa!"
A Bend in the Path Everyone Takes Regularly Close by Major Cities
Oh hey there Druid. "How are you doing today Sotana?"
A kind druid Sotana replies, 'Well I was just picking some pwitty flowers when I was going to.."
"OMFG A BRONZE DRAGON!! DUCK!!"
Kenderashiwi slays mighty greaty wyrm bronze dragon with sling-stone dagger of dragonslaying.
A great wyrm bronze dragon is dead.
R.I.P.
You receive your share of the experience.
Kenderashiwi loots your pockets... again.
You loose your share of the platinum... again.
Teflor informs you, "The path up ahad be thick with undead creatures of all sorts. Mark my words bold aventurers. Tis bad luck sailing with a woman, even a miniature one."
Enter ship.
What ship?
You scratch your head at Teflor. What the heck is he talking about!?!?
Nonox leaves north.
You follow Nonox, for wutever reason posses you at this point in time.
Not Far on the Path from Fields of the Dead which Isn't far from A Major City
"OMFG A GREAT WYRM GREEN DRAGON!!"
A waisting mage Pril coughs blood onto himself. "Dragons don't exist. They are just fignewtons of your imagiciniminations. Fine! What's it's name then?"
A great wyrm green dragon growls, 'Chlorashouldahideinmyliardrah"
Targsk farts a mighty gas cloud of green dragon slaying.
A great wyrm green dragon is dead.
R.I.P.
You receive your share of the absurdity.


:P

[Nekelet]

<snip>
A Well Traveled Path Everyone Takes Regularly Close by Major Cities
Hey a bard. "Hello Lilira."
Hey a merchant. "Hail and well met Teflor, merchant of the great house of Three West. Tell us kind sir
<snip...>
Targsk farts a mighty gas cloud of green dragon slaying.
A great wyrm green dragon is dead.
R.I.P.
You receive your share of the absurdity.
:P

*grin*
bored much? :D

[Lilira]

A Well Traveled Path Everyone Takes Regularly Close by Major Cities
Hey a bard. "Hello Lilira."
Hey a merchant. "Hail and well met Teflor, merchant of the great house of Three West. Tell us kind sir, do you have salted pork for sale? A salesman told me it is of the finest quality!"
Hello traveling scribe. "Sarvis, have you met Lilira?"
"No but I've met the.. OMFG A LIGHTNING DRAGON!!"
Mounted goat warrior Gormal burps a dragonlance projectile at great wyrm lightning dragon.
A great wyrm lightning dragon is dead.
R.I.P.
You receive your share of the experience.
"Yaaaaa!"
A Bend in the Path Everyone Takes Regularly Close by Major Cities
Oh hey there Druid. "How are you doing today Sotana?"
A kind druid Sotana replies, 'Well I was just picking some pwitty flowers when I was going to.."
"OMFG A BRONZE DRAGON!! DUCK!!"
Kenderashiwi slays mighty greaty wyrm bronze dragon with sling-stone dagger of dragonslaying.
A great wyrm bronze dragon is dead.
R.I.P.
You receive your share of the experience.
Kenderashiwi loots your pockets... again.
You loose your share of the platinum... again.
Teflor informs you, "The path up ahad be thick with undead creatures of all sorts. Mark my words bold aventurers. Tis bad luck sailing with a woman, even a miniature one."
Enter ship.
What ship?
You scratch your head at Teflor. What the heck is he talking about!?!?
Nonox leaves north.
You follow Nonox, for wutever reason posses you at this point in time.
Not Far on the Path from Fields of the Dead which Isn't far from A Major City
"OMFG A GREAT WYRM GREEN DRAGON!!"
A waisting mage Pril coughs blood onto himself. "Dragons don't exist. They are just fignewtons of your imagiciniminations. Fine! What's it's name then?"
A great wyrm green dragon growls, 'Chlorashouldahideinmyliardrah"
Targsk farts a mighty gas cloud of green dragon slaying.
A great wyrm green dragon is dead.
R.I.P.
You receive your share of the absurdity.


:P

OMG Llaal!!!!!

You slay me. Then bring me back to life as a pet,, then slay me again,,,

*Panic* *flee*

But all in all... ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL

Lil

[Ashiwi]

That was funny.

[sok]

good time all arong

[Yayaril]

8)

I want to burp a dragonlance projectile.

[rer]

Dragonlance projectile burping is a skill that is only learned after many hours of "riding" a goat...

Good luck with that one Yaya... But I think only Gormal has put in enough effort!!

[Ashiwi]

Rerrerrer, you met Yaya in Indiana. I don't doubt for a minute that he's well-practiced.

[rer]

Rerrerrer, you met Yaya in Indiana. I don't doubt for a minute that he's well-practiced.

He may be well practiced, but he'll never compare to the level that Gormal has obtained...

[Kegor]

Dragons are still getting too many special attacks per round. Monster manual sez three regular attacks and one special attack per round. It also says breath can only be used only once every three rounds. These factors are regarless of age of the dragon. The variable factor of age of the dragon is damage.

Getting a little tired of spanking on ancient dragons now with a proper group of 15. I think limiting them to one special attack per round as the D&D monster manual sez would help bring ancient dragons to the more reasonable level they should be. The damage system by level on special attacks you got set up looks good as is tho Shevy.

* Zoom

[malakwee]

I believe the changes to dragon is to make the game more challenging... and to add to the atmosphere of the game... however, while playtesting dragons, and tweaking them to a reasonable level, please bear in mind that not everybody has uber uber uber eqs that would allow them to face dragons were they made uber uber uber tough.

On the other hand, if people has uber uber uber eqs, then downgrading the dragon to a level whereby people with reasonable eqs could do them would take out the challenge for those with uber uber uber eqs in facing dragons.

I would suggest the following:
1. 1 or 2 special attacks (random by dragon) to be made that could
ignore the protections provided by any eqs, be they uber or not.
This would allow people with uber uber uber eqs to still feel dragon
fights as being a challenge
2. Most attacks to still protect the players from dragon damage... if not
fully, then to a certain degree
This would allow people with non-uber eqs to still survive dragon fights

Hopefully dragons (the ancient wyrm type) could be brought down to a
level where the fear would not be as paralyzing as it is now for people to want to join in the fight, while at the same time still instill fear for people to take it lightly.

A balance need to be struck soon for the sake of all those quest-going people

[rockers]

That true.....thanks fer the info Bai.....muekekekeke...nice idea btw..

[Llaaldara]

2) Difficulty Changes

Pending.

Today: Tue May 17, 2005

Shevarash, is Dragon Code still Pending review?

Are Dragon proc's and special attacks/procedures still stacking/triggering off eachother?
Has anyone been able to defeat Chlora yet?
Is Cave City ever being done now, or have the dragons there been changed?

I ask only because I'm not an active player anymore, and therefor can't hear globals, and this info hasn't been posted on the website news, or anywhere on the bbs that I can tell, nor the news command on the mud.

[Llaaldara]

*Bump*

[malakwee]

No offence meant when i say this but i think the imms sure seems like absentee landlords :P

I am sure tis RL stuff got in the way

Anyway... would appreciate if the imms would give any news... Saying. 'there is no update yet so far or no changes yet to come' is still news to everyone heh. And see? That took me only a few minutes to type.

Again no offence meant.

Regards

[Eilistraee]

Chlora and other dragons/wyrms have been slain, and more than just once or twice as flukes.

Cave city does get done, even without significant changes to its dragons.

As for the dragon code review, I'm afraid I don't actually know the status on it so for now, I'll say yes it is still pending examination.

[Botef]

You'll be happy to know Llaaldara that Evils did Cave City not too long ago for Tezzant and they owned Quturac quite nicely. I only wish I had logged that night instead of going to the bar, the log made me giddy.

[Sarell]

I think being able to major para dragons now is a problem given that it has become the normal way to do many dragons, charging a dragon until you major para it is pretty weak and silly imho. But I do think they are still pretty damn hard. Perhaps downgrade the frequency of bonus attacks a bit and give them para immunity like the used to have?

[kiryan]

I'm voting that we make dragons !para.

[Lahgen]

Okay guys, if this were a tabletop game, and you were a bunch of level 20 adventurers fighting a great wyrm dragon, what would you do:

1. Use your magic and your magic items to para or otherwise incapacitate it?

or

2. Try to fight it "fairly," with only your physical and offensive magical attacks, whittling down its massive hps that way?

Sure, it might not be as "badass" to do anything other than kill the dragon naked and with your bare hands, but let's be realistic about this....

That said, if the tabletop dragons have !para, then I might understand....any tabletop scholars care to comment?

[Ashiwi]

I'm voting that we make dragons !para.

Seconded.