Scardale has a Serious Flaw

[daggaz]

Make the entire zone of scardale flagged indoors plz.

Evil pbase is suffering enough as it is, that any new players who choose evil find themselves put into a newbie zone where they are dayblind half the time. I know what my first reaction would be if, after surfing hours through muds, taking the time to choose and roll a character, and finally getting to log on, I was blind as a bat. I would quit and never come back.

Nobody should have such troubles in the first zone they enter. Goodies should not be subject to darkness, and evils should not be subject to daylight.

[Grumdikanikus]

dayblind is something that newbie evils have to face. And I would rather face that is a setting that doesn't have a ton of aggro mobs from what I have found than to.......wait There aren't a lot of aggro mobs to run into in the evil hometowns cept for Hyssk and Bloodtusk.

Forget my argument, but I still think they should get used to it. That's a hard ship that people have put up with as long as Doogies have been put in game. And that been a fairly long time.

****Thinks back to days of old... I miss those Crazy Swedes****


The Rarely Seen Doogie,

Grumdikanikus

[Pril]

a) maybe make part of the zone indoors and part out to give them a feel

b) if they read the helpfile on evil races such as drow etc they'd know that they are dayblind, plus the race selection screen DOES say that evils are harder to play....

Pril

[Llaaldara]

dayblind is something that newbie evils have to face. And I would rather face that is a setting that doesn't have a ton of aggro mobs from what I have found than to.......wait There aren't a lot of aggro mobs to run into in the evil hometowns cept for Hyssk and Bloodtusk.

Forget my argument, but I still think they should get used to it. That's a hard ship that people have put up with as long as Doogies have been put in game. And that been a fairly long time.

****Thinks back to days of old... I miss those Crazy Swedes****


The Rarely Seen Doogie,

Grumdikanikus

Three underdark races. Duergar, Illithid, and Drow. None are blind in their starting hometown. I'm sorry, but your argument cannot be completed as dialed, please hang up and try again. If you'd like to make an argument, please edit and try submitting again.

a) maybe make part of the zone indoors and part out to give them a feel

b) if they read the helpfile on evil races such as drow etc they'd know that they are dayblind, plus the race selection screen DOES say that evils are harder to play....

Pril

(from help race)
"Note: The evil races: Drow, Duergar, Troll, Illithid, Ogre Orc and
Yuan-Ti, are for more advanced players. These races should be chosen only
if you feel comfortable with a somewhat more difficult experience. Their
hometowns are not as friendly as the good-raced hometowns and thus, it
makes being an evilraced new player more difficult. "

A 'newbie' start town should always be easier then any 'racial' hometown, or logically it isn't for 'new' players then is it? Please stay on the line, your call is important to us. The estimated wait time is.. fIVe MINutes...

[Pril]

well first of all my comment was half pulled out of my ass since i don't have any evils atm, but maybe i'm still half asleep i don't see how what you wrote contradicts what i said llaaldara.... ponder maybe just me being half asleep will look at this later agin or if you could post a more clear response for those of us who are at work and retarded this morning for some reason :p

Pril

[teflor the ranger]

Agreed in part.

Expand indoor areas within Scardale, and load'em with good or neutral aligned mobs.

Put evil mobs outdoors.

- That is, if you want to make ebils easier to play.

Tef

[Llaaldara]

well first of all my comment was half pulled out of my ass since i don't have any evils atm, but maybe i'm still half asleep i don't see how what you wrote contradicts what i said llaaldara.... ponder maybe just me being half asleep will look at this later agin or if you could post a more clear response for those of us who are at work and retarded this morning for some reason :p

Pril

As you pointed out, Pril, evils are supposed to be harder. As I pointed out from posting the exact wording of the message presented about this in the help file, evilrace hometowns should be harder then newbie hometowns.

That is to say, since DK, GH, and IX don't have day blindness, a hinderance for darkies (something that makes playing harder), then the newbie hometown scaredale (which is supposed to be easier then any hometowns) shouldn't have this daylight hinderance.

Please stay on the line, your post will be answered in the order it was received. If you'd like to make a fresh pot of coffee, your co-workers would love some too. ;)

[Pril]

Image coming into focus :p

Ok more awake now things making more sense :p

I do agree that since evil hometowns dont have dayblindness then scardale shouldn't but i do believe that parts of it should allow for it to give new players that want a challenge and roll and evil anyways a taste so that they know what they'll be in for once they're in the real world. So maybe make 1 small part of scardale allow for dayblindness and put a tent over the rest?

Pril

[Grumdikanikus]

Let's change it to where the rooms are lit so the Human newbies that don't have light sources can see. That's if you want to make the mud more newbie friendly to humans.

Sorry my little rant. :o

I'm up for making it a little easier for newbie Drow/illithids/Duergars but they should still experience it there and learn to get use to it.

At least there you don't have to worry about running into a Shambling mound or other wandering aggro mob.

Grummy

[Grumdikanikus]

Let's change it to where the rooms are lit so the Human newbies that don't have light sources can see. That's if you want to make the mud more newbie friendly to humans.

Sorry my little rant. :o

I'm up for making it a little easier for newbie Drow/illithids/Duergars but they should still experience it there and learn to get use to it.

At least there you don't have to worry about running into a Shambling mound or other wandering aggro mob.

Grummy

[daggaz]

llaaldara got my point exactly. Put in some caves or tunnels or something, as well as some more building. Why not have a evil race counterpart to scardale directly beneath the city? when they get big enough to bust out to the surface, they can start learning about dayblindness.

While you are at it, put in some more mid-high level mobs in scardale, specially inside buildings in caves etc. Everything is either cakewalk, or globed and fireshielded with three undead followers, and walking around under the sun. After level 14 it gets kinda despeate...specially if you are a drow mage and can only kill about one mob per night on the outside.

[Ashiwi]

So maybe the question should be... If evils are supposed to be harder, and should be played by advanced players, and Scardale is a newbie town... should evils be allowed to load into Scardale?

Make a choice here, either they're harder and for advanced players, or they're not. If they're not, then remove the notice on roll-up.

[rer]

I rolled a Drow. I have no trouble getting around now - I just learned the city map at night so I can run where I need to go just by guess work to get back inside.

Isn't that how evils are supposed to work? They're supposed to know enough to know what they're getting into?

By the way, the Orc Temple is indoors, so you can run there and easily exp all the way to level 15. There are mobs that can be killed, albeit with some difficulty, at level 1, but if you fight outside a little bit against the halforc rogues, you'll get a few levels and a few extra hps before fighting the bored sentry's inside.

It's easy. And I figured it out as an Evil, playing my first evil, my first time ever in Scardale.

[sok]

i think theres a differences between newbies and high lvl player w/ good eq playing a new char.

just my opinion

[Baikalisan]

Evils are supozed to be more difficult to start, and more difficult to level up and play.. thats always been the story.. for the more advanced players to play them and the newbies to play good where it IS easier to learn the mud and the zones and the way things work...

i have played evil main for years .. for me its not hard to level cause i know where to go and what to do. There are plenty of noobs who roll evil and learn how to play them, they stick with em... Evil population is very willing to help people out and get them started, from giving eq to showing where to xp... Usually it all works out in the end.

As for more experienced players loading in Scardale, how could anybody possibly be able to determine if the player isa Noob or not straight out of the roller? Not allowing ppl to load there, by whatever judgment is retarded.

:roll:

[Sarell]

Aside from evils VS goods argument, I don't think dayblind really makes anything much harder for new players, it just makes it boring. If you are new and really don't know what is going on you will just end up waiting half the time for it to be dark again.

I think that experienced players would just hit DK and be set as an evil, while brand new players might head to scardale to learn a bit and be turned off. May as well make scardale indoors, it isn't going to make it any easier for evils if they are meant to be for advanced players.

[Llaaldara]

Evils are supozed to be more difficult to start, and more difficult to level up and play.. thats always been the story.. for the more advanced players to play them and the newbies to play good where it IS easier to learn the mud and the zones and the way things work...

I'd like to take a moment to point out an some inconsistancies with this.

The drow and Troll help files do not, repeat do NOT contain the following warning dialogue:

Warning: As one of the six evil races on TorilMUD, the illithids are
extremely difficult to play and face many hardships. Their hometown
has been specifically designed to make life hell, and death waits
around every corner. Illithids will most certainly encounter situations
that would be deemed "unfair" to any of the non-evil races. We did
this to create a new challenge for those advanced players who have
"beaten" the challenge of life on the surface world and are looking
for something more difficult. You should NOT play an illithid unless you
are a *very* advanced player and are used to the TorilMUD style of
MUDding, or are willing to face the hardships without complaint, as it
will NOT be easy.


As it currently stands, anyone creating a new drow or troll character sees no warnings whatsoever about the race being for advance players. If this is intentional, or not, I do not currently know. I had thought at one point this warning was supposed to be removed from all evilrace help files, but I could be mistaken. I tried looking thru the news, but can't seem to find this message.

Just thought I'd point it out.

[Ashiwi]

Not allowing ppl to load there, by whatever judgment is retarded.

Gee, twisted knickers much, Baik? Don't get all riled up and start namecalling so soon after being back, we're just rolling out the welcome carpet for you.

Either the evil races are considered a more difficult side to play, or they aren't. With all the compromises that have been made lately, even the evils are saying they aren't. I'd still think that squids and snakes are a bit tougher to play, but I'm not sure on the race by race breakdown, and that's just my opinion.

If they are for advanced players, then why would advanced players need a noob zone? "Advanced" players should be playing in advanced hometowns, shouldn't they? If they're not for advanced players, then they should be treated accordingly, just like everybody else, and Scardale should be designed with them in mind, with sufficient exp areas that take their dayblindness into account.

Evils aren't that much harder any more, for the most part they're just different. People need to toss that old myth out the window and seriously consider whether or not there is really any point in weighting things either easier or harder for the different race sides. Who knows, it might eventually have an impact on the evil pbase when it gets around just how cushy things are over there in some aspects of the game, especially with these new changes going in. Tit for tat, though, because having some aspects easier doesn't mean others aren't harder.

Now, do advanced players really need equal opportunity in a noob zone, or is evil life supposed to be more challenging? My preference would be for evils to have decent exp areas in Scardale, in spite of the smorgasbord they have awaiting them in DK, unless they're supposed to be challenged by the zone.

If evils still consider themselves to be "advanced players," then I really don't see the point in arguing why the noobie zone is so mean to them.

[rer]

i think theres a differences between newbies and high lvl player w/ good eq playing a new char.

just my opinion

For clarification, I havent put any eq on my drow. I have learned to deal with the dayblindness, and I did it quickly. I am a decent player, but I wouldn't say that I'm 1337. Hell, I don't even have a full eq set for most of the characters that i DO play on a regular basis, and still don't have a level 50 character.

Rolling the drow and learning in day-blind made my exp a lot easier when I did roll a new human character, because I knew exactly where to go and what to do to get quick exp.

[rockers]

i started play as an ebil and little bit of helped from kind player and now i'm survived as troll warrior (50).....they just need little help to survive as newbie in mud. ;)

[Yayaril]

8)

I started play as a goodie and found that I was nightblind half the time. This was something that didn't cause me to quit.

[shalath]

8)

I started play as a goodie and found that I was nightblind half the time. This was something that didn't cause me to quit.

Yayaril wins the prize. I read this five minutes ago and only just picked myself up off the floor after laughing so hard :-)

[teflor the ranger]

pwned by Yayaril. Teh shame!

[Ambar]

Truthfully I don't see a problem with dayblind, I survived it with two high level evils (a drow and a duergar) ... and my duergar was my first serious evil race char ..

I think Scardale is fine as it stands, the little evils need to learn to deal with the ultravision, and starting off there is fine .. they can use NHC to ask any questions, and if it causes them to quit, then so be it, they probably wouldn't have the patience to plod thru 50 levels of dayblind anyway...

if they still want to play the ultra race, they can recall/enter toril just fine and level up in GH, Ix or DK...

-J

[daggaz]

Its embarrassing I have to explain myself any further on this...only one person seems to have gotten the point at all.

FIRST: Assume you are a fullfledged, never mudded before newbie. Or maybe you even mudded before, maybe alot, but NEVER on this mud.

Second. You spend a lot of time picking a character (perhaps even reading every single helpfile available in the char. generation machine). You maybe even spend a good amount of time rollling what you hope to be good stats.

Third. Your character is finally accepted and you enter the mud.

STOP.

Where are you?
You have been automatically, no questions asked, loaded into scardale. Fine. You read the first room description (a horrible spam job in my opinion) and enter the appropriate guild. Fine. You practise around a little and learn your commands. Fine. You explore your tiny guild. Nice. You open the door. You step outside. YOU ARE 1 in 2 chance BLIND AS A BAT! You may have to wait up to ten whole minutes to even be able to look at the mud beyond your guild. Then, having just begun wandering around the town (and probably not mapping) suddenly the sun comes up and you are BLIND AS A BAT again. Oh...this is fun you begin to think...

Yeah right. Im not even going to start tossing insults about who can mud well or who cant and why. Its simply not the point. The point is new characters are tossed into scardale and they probably want to look around there first (most likely wont even realize its not part of the real mud) and they WONT like what the see if they are evil. Evilrace chars should load into a part of scardale which is not subject to the kinds of weather their race despises. No evil hometown does this to its own, no matter how hard it is. Let them learn about dayblind as they advance further thru scardale....let them deal with dayblind as a serious hinderance in the REAL mud. DONT nail new players with this right at level one within four rooms of where they enter the mud. It is downright stupid, im sorry.

As for evils supposed to being harder...it IS harder. Number one reason, the pbase, as you all know, sucks. This dont help. Also, I really dont see why there has to be this huge disadvantage in scardale for ultras anyhow...its not like letting ultras get to lvl 20 as easily as goodies is gonna unbalance things. Elite players will get there no matter what, fast. Maybe noob evils should be given a decent start in the game as well, like everybody else. Life will be tough enough when they are finally kicked out.

All in all, I suggest that as a temporary fix, sunlight be togged off from the whole zone (the town is bright even when the forest trails are not anyhow, wierd). A better fix would be to create an evil area which matches the races and their natural homes, connected to scardale, which would teach the evils about themselves as they advance towards the surface...ultimately having to deal with sunlight.

My god, its a newbie zone, not an axe-grinder. Thanks. My two cents....now gimme my change back!

[Llaaldara]

8)

I started play as a goodie and found that I was nightblind half the time. This was something that didn't cause me to quit.

Lemme guess, you forgot to 'hold torch' or 'get orb'?

Humans are blind in darkness, true, but they can always hold a lightsource to circumvent this dilemma (and every newbie starts with two in their inventory and the start room has perm light items) and continue to play actively and enjoy the game. There is no way around dayblindness at low levels.

The first impression of a mud shouldn't be "Argh! TOO MUCH LIGHT!"

Kthnxbye

[rer]

I still think Scardale is fine. My first character through there was a drow and it worked out just fine. I didn't feel like I was in an axe grinder. I didn't feel like it was as easy as being a goodrace like I was used to. I enjoyed the challenge. I learned how to get along.

Stop whining, and if you don't like ebils, don't play them.

[Botef]

My first few characters on sojourn 3 were all Drow characters for the most part. (Had one human very very briefly) Id wager I self deleted a good two or three of these characters because I'd wander from DK towards VT, find myself dayblind and end up getting frustrated and just self deleting and starting over.

I eventually learned how dayblindness works and how to work with it, and now its not even a issue, I run around blind half the time anyways. However it was those first 20 minutes of playing this mud that got me interested and ultimatly addicted. It was in those first 20 minutes that I met other players, got some eq and went at it killing stuff. Had I been dayblind while wandering toadsquat mountains I quickly would have passed this mud up and gone on my way.

I think ultimatly thats the problem with scardale and dayblindness, a new player rolls a character, walks out of there guild hall and is immediatly blind and disoriented. Being unfamiliar with the dayblind concept, where they are, how recall works, etc etc can be a real turn off.

Take my good friend Ezwar for example (A RL friend mind you). Not even an hour after rolling his character he called me upset that his character was hopelessy lost. The problem as you might have guessed is he walked out onto the streets of scardale and quickly got disoriented in the light.

Given some proper direction and a quick tour of DK and he was well on his way to plvling his voker.

Now you can claim evil races are meant to be a challenege all you want, but what really matters here is a potentially new player rolls a character, finds themselves hopelessly lost in the light, deletes-quits-whatever, and moves onto another mud. This is the real issue, losing new players to a zone that is supposed to be NEWBIE friendly is IMO a important issue to address.

If Toadsquat had been outdoors during Soj. 3, and I rolled my drow to find myself blinded Id have quit long long ago and moved on. I think most new players want to get right into the action, not find themselves blind and feeling like they need to roll another character and start anew.

My 2 Cents

[teflor the ranger]

FIRST: Assume you are a fullfledged, never mudded before newbie. Or maybe you even mudded before, maybe alot, but NEVER on this mud.

Second. You spend a lot of time picking a character (perhaps even reading every single helpfile available in the char. generation machine). You maybe even spend a good amount of time rollling what you hope to be good stats.

Sounds like you should take your own advice.

Code: Select all

NOTE: If you are new to Sojourn, or MUDding in general, we suggest
      you begin the game with on of the races marked by a (*) above:
      Human, Barbarian, or Mountain Dwarf.

Your selection?


But seriously... er.. something to add to this post...

Dayblind races have innate darkness.

[Pril]

But seriously... er.. something to add to this post...

Dayblind races have innate darkness.

Innate darkness is magic darkness which does not allow them to see teflor. Please check facts before posting.

Pril

[teflor the ranger]

Innate darkness is magic darkness which does not allow them to see teflor. Please check facts before posting.

Pril

My fact was correct. I never claimed it'd let them see. Check your accusations before you make them, Pril.

[Thilindel]

I would offer a compromise idea: Allow vision but with a *You are temporarily able to see in the day due to Scardale's lighting (something to that nature) So every room they enter, they're reminded they will be seeing a nifty ARGH! soon. I totally agree that as a very first timer, that it'd be all so frustrating to be absolutely impaired. You don't know exits, you just see ARGH! That'd be enough to make me quit period. Scardale is very cushy, I don't see any problem with allowing even sub-20 ultravisions to see in Scardale only during the day.

This may be oh so wordy, but how bout this. The first time 'ARGH!' comes up in scardale for a new player, have 'type Fountain' (Fountain being an innate only ultravision would get in scardale) come up so they can get teleported to the fountain. Just have the fountain automatically cast some mystery spell that allows them day vision temporarily. They'll get the idea really quickly just why drow hate the day walkers - envy! :P

[Crumar]

Make the entire zone of scardale flagged indoors plz.

Evil pbase is suffering enough as it is, that any new players who choose evil find themselves put into a newbie zone where they are dayblind half the time. I know what my first reaction would be if, after surfing hours through muds, taking the time to choose and roll a character, and finally getting to log on, I was blind as a bat. I would quit and never come back.

Nobody should have such troubles in the first zone they enter. Goodies should not be subject to darkness, and evils should not be subject to daylight.

As I said in other posts only way to go is a dwarf!

[Pril]

Innate darkness is magic darkness which does not allow them to see teflor. Please check facts before posting.

Pril

My fact was correct. I never claimed it'd let them see. Check your accusations before you make them, Pril.

Ok Teflor maybe i missed something... we're talking about dayblindness being a problem.... you mention that they have darkness.... sorry for assuming you were trying to be helpfull and not just pulling random facts. My fault.

Something to add to this thread.... Paladins have Layhands. *shrug* makes about as much sense as teflor's post.

Pril

[Thilindel]

Paladins may love having layhands, but anti-paladins love getting lai..er, whoops! Lost myself for a moment :P

[teflor the ranger]

sorry for assuming you were trying to be helpfull and not just pulling random facts. My fault.

Pril

You tell Pril '... you thought i was trying to be helpful?'

Pril tells you 'nod :p'


But seriously, in the race selection, it's suggested that a first time player plays a human, barb, or dorf. And seriously, if a player has any concept of what a drow is, they'll know about dayblind.

[Thilindel]

Just to (bad joke here) shed some light on innate darkness..


< 47h/47H 129v/129V >
< P: std > inna darkness
After a brief concentration, The room is blanketed with a darkness field!

< 47h/47H 129v/129V >
< P: std > l
It is pitch black...

< 47h/47H 129v/129V >

..

at least 'It is pitch black...' is less spam than ARGH! TOO MUCH LIGHT!

[Thilindel]

*grumble*

[Thilindel]

[quote="Thilindel"][/quote] Man, this server sucks ass sometimes. Posted this thing over and over and it just sits here

[teflor the ranger]

Just to shed some light on innate darkness..

ARG! TOO MUCH FUNNY!

[Llaaldara]

Innate darkness is magic darkness which does not allow them to see teflor. Please check facts before posting.

Pril

My fact was correct. I never claimed it'd let them see. Check your accusations before you make them, Pril.

Fact1: Yaya implied that goodraces suffer from a form of dayblindness with humans not seeing in dark.


Fact2: In continued conversation, I pointed out that this was not the same, that humans could get passed this hindrance while day blind races could not in the Scaredale environment (-21st level).


Fact3: The conversation was currently discussing a balance vs. an imbalance between not being able to see during a certain part of the mud day, between good race and evil race, where you, Teflor, thereby pointing out that "Day blind races have innate darkness" (which only Drow do, and which as Pril pointed out they still cannot see in) is both incredibly erroneous according to the current logic of the conversation as well as being grossly inaccurate. Duergar do not have innate darkness. Illlithids do not have Innate darkness.

*Insert Gimpy Teflor SLAM gesture*

Kthnxbye

[Thilindel]

Omg, score one for Llaaldara! I'm still laughin!

[teflor the ranger]

Ha! I love it. You gotta slam someone when they have their own facts.

Even if the only thing gimpy about a slam is you. *insert gimpy kthnxbye.

But seriously, it's no secret that cities are lit, thus nightblind races can see in surface cities. I would also like to point out that Scardale is a newbie zone. Newbies are encouraged to roll humans, barbs, and dorfs for good reason. I'd also like to point out that there are areas in Scardale that happen to have dark areas, for instance, the woods to the west and the dungeons underneath the city.

Perhaps one alteration that could be made is to have a "down" exits in the guilds leading a sewer area? Rats and stuff to kill, maybe a way into the dungeons.

By the way, Lala, newbies are encouraged to roll humans, barbs, and dwarves, and I haven't seen any of you answer to that yet.

[Pril]

Some just don't want to.

Pril

[teflor the ranger]

They can eat ARG! then.

[rer]

Dayblind races have innate darkness.

My fact was correct.

You gotta slam someone when they have their own facts.

Duergar do not have innate darkness. Illlithids do not have Innate darkness. *SLAM*

Looks to me like she slammed you on your "fact" using the same method you attempted on Kifle - except, she backed up her argument with facts, unlike you.

*SLAM*

[Ambar]

The first time 'ARGH!' comes up in scardale for a new player, have 'type Fountain' (Fountain being an innate only ultravision would get in scardale) come up so they can get teleported to the fountain. Just have the fountain automatically cast some mystery spell that allows them day vision temporarily. They'll get the idea really quickly just why drow hate the day walkers - envy! :P

or how bout that neat command called recall ...

I don't know, maybe just a little help file tied into help ultra about exactly what it means???

[Arilin Nydelahar]

Its embarrassing I have to explain myself any further on this...only one person seems to have gotten the point at all.

FIRST: Assume you are a fullfledged, never mudded before newbie. Or maybe you even mudded before, maybe alot, but NEVER on this mud.

Second. You spend a lot of time picking a character (perhaps even reading every single helpfile available in the char. generation machine). You maybe even spend a good amount of time rollling what you hope to be good stats.

Third. Your character is finally accepted and you enter the mud.

STOP.

Where are you?
You have been automatically, no questions asked, loaded into scardale.

Well, you're wrong actually.

Last I checked(Hey lets assume they read everything) you're put in a room with a few exits. Some go to scardale, the rest go to the mud. If they go to the mud, no problem just the normal hometown stuff not much worry about dayblind less they feel like travelling.

The idea is just stupid. People learn, people adapt. You're drow, you deal with it. If they don't like it they can make a snake, they can start in scardale too and god knows that's easier than Hyssk.

[teflor the ranger]

Looks to me like she slammed you on your "fact" using the same method you attempted on Kifle - except, she backed up her argument with facts, unlike you.

*SLAM*

Words of a fool.

Occasionally I do throw out something wrong, and have admitted it, as I have here and elsewhere in the forums where I have made errors.

Current discussion with Kifle concerning warfare and Patton are 100% verifiable on my part. Don't be an idiot.

If you're too dull to figure out how to find the information for yourself, you may ask me specifically, and I will be happy to dig it up for you.