Damage - some thoughts

[Lahgen]

More and more, I'm hearing how unbalanced certain classes are when it comes to damage. I won't go into detail, as I'm sure you've heard it all before. However, it does seem to me that this view comes from a false assumption: that damage is not supposed to come easy, and that it's the be-all end-all of challenge on the mud. That without mobs being able to withstand lots of damage, there's no challenge to this mud..

It's understandable, I suppose. But I would submit that perhaps the damage output is not the problem. The problem, to me it seems, is the mobs tactics.

Rather than blame invokers for doing "too much damage" with Inferno, perhaps instead the fault (if there is any) lies with the mobs for not having at least one peon bright enough to know "omfg, that dude's packing inferno, I gotta stop him! *bash*"

That's just an example, of course. There are many ways, I'm sure, for the mobs to come closer to level of players in their sense of tactics. Especially when you consider that some mobs especially, like dragons and higher level demons, should totally pwn us as far as intelligence, wisdom, and perhaps strategy goes.

Yes, I know that it is all but impossible to come up with the true AI that this would require, but we can still strive for such an ideal, if we wanted to.

Not only this, but perhaps more "difficulty" and "challenge" to the mud can come from quests and puzzles, rather than how much damage the mobs can take.

Of course, after this, there may still be some that disagree about the role of damage, and I'm willing to consider *civil* counterarguments.

[kiryan]

how do you make quests and puzzles that are different each time?

wanna give the mobs a fair shot? get rid of reduce or let big mobs bash small players, make dragonscales and stone interfere with spellcasting.

[Lahgen]

I'm sure the imms can randomize quests some if they tried. But then, that need not be a prerequisite of "challenge," for it to be random.

Also, rather than suddenly allowing mobs to pwn our small pcs, how about we give mobs reduce and enlarge for some of them?

I also don't see how stone and dscale could interfere with casting, either.

[kiryan]

if its not random then it'll get figured out and it'll become common knowledge, like the password to the illusion in jot. Where is the challenge in being told the answer to puzzles or riddles? If you wanted challenge in zones you could bring less invokers, all warriors, or whatever...

well the reason why it doesnt really matter if you give reduce/enlarge to mobs is because the players still have the upper hand, they know what size mobs they are going to fight and adjust size to compensate. Mobs aren't going to know if the players went up or down. If you build it into their casting AI then it even worse than how they autocast fire/coldshield after getting it poofed.

there isn't any reason why it can or can not affect casting. You can write up the spell desc anyway you want, skin too hard to manipulate for gestures or difficult speech, whatever you want. The point would be to add some "difficulty and challenge".

[Lahgen]

I just mean, rather than take away our infallible means of safeguarding our casting, we could give the mob the same deal.

And just because someone knows how to do a quest doesn't mean it'll become easy. If that were true, everyone would have khanjaris. :p

As for stone and dscale, I guess I'm just thinking there's nothing like that in tabletop D&D, so I would object to putting it in there just to "up the ante." That said, I wouldn't mind if it, say, increased the stars needed to cast a little bit, and could be mitigated by song of sorcery. Then there would have to be a decision whether to stick with song of healing/matrix or go with sorcery for the casters.

[Lilithelle]

One way to go might be by limiting player hps. Duris has a hp cap of 4 hps/level from eq. I mean look at SPOB, the challenge in that zone is the lack of hps means mob areas are actually dangerous instead of a cloud being ho hum. This addresses other inbalances as well.

Elves have unsurpassed intelligence and agility, great charisma, decent dexterity, an age limit that makes ghosts no problem, infravision, and outdoor sneak and all it costs it some strength and about 50 hps off what humans get. Now when you can wear over 500 hps in eq like my characters do this 50 hp difference is meaningless. But if hps were limited to 4 per level by eq my mage would be running around with 415 hps without vit instead of 746, I don't care in zones if I'm vitted or not with hps like these. So now there would be a reason to play other mage races than elf and human. Suddenly people would start playing dwarven clerics again, those 50 extra hps would be worth the walk from mithril hall.

Then mages would be more delicate, like mages are supposed to be. Their damage is unsurpassed but one sword blow and they crumple. So warriors would have an advantage as a damage source, survivability.

It would also help balance the solo abilities of elementalists, as with much fewer hps soloing would be either more dangerous or some things they can get away with now just not possible.

Dragons wouldn't have to do such insane amounts of damage since it would be easier to kill people so it would be a bit easier to keep up with the healing when fighting them.

Personally I think what is needed is demons/dragons having less resistance to large physical weapons. Right now they have high magic resistance and resist physical damage. Sure a dagger might not do much to a dragon or demon but maybe a barbarian wielding a big honking sword would. Maybe we could add a length field to weapons so that length/weight would be factored into how much they hurt larger creatures. This could address melee issues for warriors and sub-classes(those paladin/ap two-handed swords hurt!) and make it so rogues aren't the undisputed damagers meleewise. They still would be on mobs close to their own size but not to huge mobs. warriors and rogues would both have a place where their damage capacity would be useful.
Lilithelle

[Lahgen]

Hrm...reducing elves to a +style race? Interesting idea...:p

Seriously though, those are all good ideas.

[teflor the ranger]

*snort* player characters don't have the sense to bash the right mobs. why should mobiles?

[Ashiwi]

Wouldn't it be nice to see some kind of spell or mob that attaches itself to
magical energy somehow? That way, the more spells a player has going, the more damage they take. Or maybe a mob that leeches magical health, so that the higher a PC's magical hps, the greater damage they take. Or even wild magic... I was hoping to be able to use something like it in a zone, if I ever finish building it, but it would definitely shake things up a bit.

[Llaaldara]

There are some easy ways to add 'randomness' to zones.

For mobs and even mob quests.

For mob quests and keywords:
Make 10 mobs. They all look exactly the same. Only one can ever load at one time. So to a player, they will always think it's the same mob. But from a coding standpoint, it isn't. Then give each mob the same exact quest with subtle variations to it that make a difference in the outcome. You can set it up so asking the final keyword that everyone knows to the wrong mob could result in the mob doing something as drastic as attacking you, or worse.

For Mobs and battle tactics:
Make 10, or even 20, mobs that all look exactly the same. Flag em all differently. Let some have procs. Let some not. Let some track. Let some not.

Fun Procs for making Invoker's lives hell:
Mobs that proc heal on certain area spells like inferno/cloud, or ball lightning.
Maybe mobs that call for help when hit by certain spells.
Maybe mobs that multiply when hit by certain spells. (Imagine if firebased creatures multiplied when hit by a fire spell?)

etc.

[Ashiwi]

I'd love to see fireball and inferno do damage back to the invoker AND the other PC's, when in an inside room, especially inferno.

What about a spell like "mirrorshield" which has a chance of reflecting spells back onto the caster, or onto random PC's or mobs in the room?

[rer]

I agree that based on the size of a room, damage should be done to the members of the group. In a small room, calling up an Inferno of flames on the half of the room with the mobs, who happen to be engaged in Melee with several characters in the group, is likely to damage at least the tanks, if not the rogues/rangers/anyone else who's close enuf to land a melee attack.

[kiryan]

There are some easy ways to add 'randomness' to zones.

For mobs and even mob quests.

For mob quests and keywords:
Make 10 mobs. They all look exactly the same. Only one can ever load at one time. So to a player, they will always think it's the same mob. But from a coding standpoint, it isn't. Then give each mob the same exact quest with subtle variations to it that make a difference in the outcome. You can set it up so asking the final keyword that everyone knows to the wrong mob could result in the mob doing something as drastic as attacking you, or worse.

For Mobs and battle tactics:
Make 10, or even 20, mobs that all look exactly the same. Flag em all differently. Let some have procs. Let some not. Let some track. Let some not.

Fun Procs for making Invoker's lives hell:
Mobs that proc heal on certain area spells like inferno/cloud, or ball lightning.
Maybe mobs that call for help when hit by certain spells.
Maybe mobs that multiply when hit by certain spells. (Imagine if firebased creatures multiplied when hit by a fire spell?)

etc.

I'm sure the system you speak of above would add a few more interesting trips, but overall it will be broken over time.

All 10 versions of the quest will be documented (which pretty much puts you back at status quo yet asked the area maker to make 10 versions of the same quest).

Trying to make fights look the same isn't going to work all that well... If you took the same approach as above, you'd of course learn all the different types of fight and the leader would call it out. Second, if it wasnt a blind entry, then you can twink the knowledge with luring and !track abilities.

You do succeed in creating a small amount of confusion which isn't going to phase high end experienced groups... You also potentially add a bunch of waiting around while 2 or 3 people figure out the next fight... The suggestion has worth, but I don't think its a silver bullet and it may not accomplish the goals stated.

[kiryan]

I liked the suggestion Lilithelle made from Duris and I don't like it.

Talking as if we all agree that hps need to be capped which is certainly debatable. Capping hps or other stats by level is more of a bandaid to address an issue of too many hps which is a failure to stat the eq properly which either results from Areas having no vision(plan) or Code fuxoring up the balance with new spells/skills.

It would bring down the top end of the game eq side, but it also expands the top end player side (more people will have top possible stats with less eq value) and face it a lot of people play to have the most damroll, the most hps, ect. We wil re-introduce the same risk vs rewards issues that we did prior to the eq-restat and area makers will have less range to work with as some part of the range would be a waste of points.

Consider also the impact of PROT eq. WE MUST WEAR PROT EQ because fucking dragons are stupid and burn gear. But by making this a virtual requirement you strongly encouraged all eq to carry a prot and you have effectively halved damage PCs take from specifically dragons. So what did we do? We increased dragon breath strength 2-3x? You forced an increase in veteran player strength, you responded with improved dragon strength, but you did nothing for the new guy. He is facing dragons that are 3 or 4x more powerful than any new person had to face before in the past because of EQ escalation and largely because of the prevelence of chars wearing all prots all the time. You'd effectively reduce player hps a crap load if you eliminated prot gear, savespell, save breath, and ac gear.

This is one of the stupidest pieces of eq I've seen. AC 11, 17 hps, prot gas, -5 save breath worn on the feet. Its got superior AC for the feet, great hps, a sick amount of save breath, and a prot to boot.... How can you have any kind of control on player power with crap like this in the game?


*********

The difference for mage1 (invoker, enchanter) hps between human and elven is actually only 25 hps at 50 (10% naked)? I think its 50 for elementalists, 100 for priests, 150 for warriors.

Now compare the stats. 50% gain in intelligence (10-15% actual improvement in memtimes?) 15% improvement in agility (10-15% improvement in defense?). 20% reduction in damage roll, 15% increase in hitroll?

The difference in races is trivialized by +stat eq, the basic hp differences naked in hp or damroll or hitroll are minute after getting dressed. a 10% hp difference between elf and human is reduced to a 2-3% after eqd. A damroll difference of 1 (4 vs 5) 20% naked becomes 2% of 50 or only 5% of 25. The effect of hitroll is negligble compared to player skills a 50% difference in base hitroll has very little to no value at 50...

i don't know where im going here, thanks for listening.

[Llaaldara]

Trying to make fights look the same isn't going to work all that well... If you took the same approach as above, you'd of course learn all the different types of fight and the leader would call it out. Second, if it wasnt a blind entry, then you can twink the knowledge with luring and !track abilities.

You do succeed in creating a small amount of confusion which isn't going to phase high end experienced groups... You also potentially add a bunch of waiting around while 2 or 3 people figure out the next fight... The suggestion has worth, but I don't think its a silver bullet and it may not accomplish the goals stated.

I agree with your points about the stuff I didn't quote. I just want to address what I quoted above.

Now this is where you're starting to slip. It appears you are only assuming that there is only one mob that changes, like the boss. That's not my point. Not at all. Not even close. Instead, think about all mobs in a zone having 10 different versions of themselves (or more). So EVERY encounter is different. You also appear to have completely neglected the possibility that some of these flags might allow the mobs to wander. What if Thrym was wandering around (in a defined area setup up by the creator ahead of time so you wouldn't find him at the tree) with his budies?

Another brief example. What if this was done to a gatehouse in Jot?
boot 1 = They are all warrior mobs, 2 have 25% MR
boot 2 = 2 mages in with the mix, randomly, 3 yell for reinforcements now.
boot 3 = 1 mage, 3 clerics, 1 rogue in the mix, randomly.
boot 4 = they are all !bash casters, one has 50% MR, 4 have 100% MR
boot 5 = 3 of the giants are hunters and will track, 2 now summon.

Don't forget to add in load percentages as well. Maybe the number of total mobs in each gatehouse scenario changed as well, without ever going over a specific cap.

Do you see where I'm going with this? It can result in absolute murder on players by mobs, all depending on how evil the area designer wants to be. Groups will have to actually pay attention to the changing circumstances of the zone, and within each individual encounter, instead of near botting as it is now.
Everything from Rogue scouting, to memming out, to targeting silences, to warriors turning off their autorescues and knowing when to rescue and when to shieldpunch something. All these things stress the ability level of the players above their trig/bot configs. Everytime you do the zone, it would be completely different. Sure the layout and rooms might be the same, but the encounters/fights would vary immensely everytime you do it, or even during it if the zone repops while in it.


Btw please, if anyone wants to point out how much work this is for the area creator, well you can stop right now. Seriously. I'm acutely aware of this fact. At no time am I indicating that this isn't something hard or tedious to setup that takes a great amount of time. The only thing an area writer doesn't have to do, is make up new descrips for the different variations. Otherwise it is a truck load of extra .zone & .quest file writing.

But I feel, all in all, it would be well worth the time and effort invest to have a timeless zone that is always different and therefore challenging, because it is so dynamic. :)

Edit: PS. Don't think I'm implying that this to be done to every zone, and that every single mob in the game would have 10 different versions of itself, and that each mob could be any class at any time from a players perspective. I'm saying, when an area writer is initially designing their zone, they take the above advice into consideration during the design process.

Surely, wandering trolls in jot shouldn't suddenly be inferno casting invokers or other such nonsense. I'm talking about all flags, where appropriate, not just class flags. There are a lot of them to choose from to make mobs 'behave' differently.

[Shiallia]

Llaaldara,
I understand where you are going with it, and have used this techniques numerous times to various ends. It does work as you suspect in many cases, but, likewise, works as they are saying to some extent. Kind of a mixed blessing. Suffice it to say that soon enough there will be opportunity to test out the theory. :wink:
Shiallia

P.S. It isn't that much of a workload to do actually, IF you are prepared ahead of time. It can actually be faster than trying to make 10 different mobs.

[kiryan]

I'm saying it wont make a zone harder, but largely it won't make a zone more interesting just more boring.

the rogue and the illusionist/druid will be out there testing tracking, testing shouting, and the rest of the group will be waiting for them to determine what the best strategy for attack is. Players are not going to blindly charge unless they absolutely have to or if they have a 90% chance they can handle anything coming their way.

and, at the point where you make it too complicated to be understood, it will be reduced to brute force and lowest common denominator.

While it might be good to write a few zones like you suggest, like spob its ultimately gimmicky. Do you want to see 50 naked zones? Does anyone want to see another "invasion"? Another zone with patrols?

why not write 3 extra zones instead of the same zone 10 different ways?

[Ashiwi]

It might not have been done here, Llaalldara, but it's been done on Homelands, and with their staff here, different techniques are bound to follow. I can think of at least one zone which used multiple classes of mobs, caster, rogue, warrior, cleric, loaded them on a battle proc, and they all had the exact same descriptions so it was impossible to discern which was which for battle tactics.

At least one quest in Toril already has something along the lines of what you're talking about... perhaps not to that extent, but I'm sure there are people who have already given it consideration, and it might be in the works in somebody's partially completed zone out there.

[kiryan]

I don't think the change would have any impact on botting.

It might encourage me personally to write new triggers for the zone.

consider how CC dragons created the need for the trigger to disable your rescue on roar, dragon entering, or dragon stands here fighting person x... how hard is it to stop bashing something if you start bouncing?

[Llaaldara]

why not write 3 extra zones instead of the same zone 10 different ways?

I don't believe the mud could use another Brass or three, or some more Giths, or even three invasion-less Jots (just because you feel invasions are gimics noone likes - that's your opinion, not mine). This is exactly what the mud doesn't need, more zones that are easily outdone by a newer zone simply because they manipulate the point system better to yield better stat'd equipment. In another year, Izans, IC2, and Seelie will be the next Gith, IC1, and Brass as more static zones come running in to take the place of the equipment they produce by outdoing them.

I thought you had strong issues with the equipment/game balance runaway train of Toril? Making more zones like this only feeds the ongoing problem that has been transpiring for years here.

I'm sure one of your points is people don't do zones like brass/gith/ic1 because the eq is substandard compared to other ones. Just as I'm sure the eq is worse because the zones are static and easy in comparison to the newer zones with the better equipment. The older ones have less points. It's not that these new zones are so much bigger physically, they just manipulate the new system better.

A more dynamic zone would yield a larger point spread (both higher and lower) which results in both better and worse equipment. This ultimately results in more variety.

How can the eq be different each time?
If each mob variation carried a different item hidden in it's inventory, and combinations of these items used together were quested for the rewards, and the items didn't always load similar to Air Ship, each combination of items would result in a different series of rewards which ='s a dynamic reward system

Zones need longevity. For that you need variety, not the best gear in the game, because that only lasts until the next one comes along with even better gear.

[kiryan]

How can you add more eq to one zone without ruining a bunch of other zones?

**********
Jot invasion was cool. Musphelim invasion was cool. Then came Gith invasion, smoke invasion, and choking palace invasion... Now I dont think choking palace invasion is quite as lame as gith invasion, but do you really want to see another 4 or 5 invasions? Use some creativity. You could have a new zone and have a "manscorp hatching" instead of a manscorp invasion... Hate all you want, but im sure you can see how adding a bunch more invasions is lame and !creative.

[teflor the ranger]

We can have kiryanland, where all we do is hack at Kiryans and his alts.

[Ashiwi]

Teflor, heaven can't be recreated by man, even on a mud.

[Tasan]

This is one of the stupidest pieces of eq I've seen. AC 11, 17 hps, prot gas, -5 save breath worn on the feet. Its got superior AC for the feet, great hps, a sick amount of save breath, and a prot to boot.... How can you have any kind of control on player power with crap like this in the game?

Much like most of that zone, the original stats were modified far beyond what they were intended to be. I honestly can't support the staff's decision to rape some items of decent stats/level of the zone to make one piece ungodly. This is one of the reasons that it's frustrating to write a zone. You jump through all the hoops only to have someone screw with your stuff to make it how they see fit.

Originally those were statted ac9 15hp -3sb pfg and that was using every last point available for them, which begs the question, why was I told items needed to be dg'd, yet this item got an upgrade? Ask away, they wouldn't tell me.

Use some creativity. You could have a new zone and have a "manscorp hatching" instead of a manscorp invasion... Hate all you want, but im sure you can see how adding a bunch more invasions is lame and !creative.

Considering 3 of the "invasions" you listed were created by the same zone writer, I'm confused as to your overall assessment that there are too many. Creativity is defined by the code in many respects. There are things you can do to improve upon the basics, but it always boils down to someone abusing flags and other code to do something faster/easier/twinkier.

There's also reality to look at. Most "adventures" involve a so-called bad and good side, one defending or attacking etc. You have invasions on every level... some are just not a "special load".

I just find it superbly aristocratic to complain about nearly every aspect without offering some serious suggestions.

The point would be to add some "difficulty and challenge".

Plenty of people still find the game "challenging". Difficulty is totally based on personal experince and the group you are in. If you zone consistantly in "Mori" groups, you'll find some added challenge.

Overall, PCs are overpowered. Players complain and bitch and whine(see your own rants) when eq is downgraded or something is made more difficult along the way. However, when areas attemptsto go the other way, you bitch and moan about risk v. reward and how long it takes to get things. This game was designed for a wide range of talent and commitment, and for that the staff has done a superb job. Yes there are problems, there will always be, but offering up rants and otherwise negative posts does nothing to help your credibility or make anyone want to work here.

Make some helpful suggestions, write your own "difficult and challenging" zone, or STFU. Seriously.

[rer]

And as far as Choking Palace goes, I love that invasion style -
A) it's tough
B) it's guarunteed, since you have to pop it
C) it's fun

Now, do I want to see another zone just like it? Probably not. It's uniqueness is what makes it so great. And as far as risk goes, I would expect that the EQ from it PWNS, and it SHOULD! The Risk is 90% against the players. And no chance to salvage!