Rareload eq

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kiryan
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Rareload eq

Postby kiryan » Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:28 pm

How exactly does being rare make eq intrinsically more valuable (points in the eq calcr)? Consider the below, I am making no intimations about how points are calculated but asking folks to consider how we should or shouldnt value rare items.

In some situations eq should have additional value for being rare. This is warranted when there is significant effort required to "check" a rare and that effort is not also directed at other objectives like doing a zone.

Imagine a zone where one fight might result in any of 100 pieces of eq (each is a 1% chance to load). Its probably wrong to give these items a bonus if all the items are approximately equal in power.

Now consider a rareload mob in a zone... should he have super awesome gear just because he is a 1% load or should his reward be consumate with the value of the fight/effort when considered at a zone level?

I used to think BC/Avernus gear was stupid (it still might be), but perhaps its not all that stupid when you consider the rare loads. If the zone points are all allocated to rare loads then those rareloads should get bonuses for being rare (which is really to say that the cost of getting these items is calculated as if having to do the zone X number of times)... But if none of the zone points are allocated to the object and only the points from the actual fight, then why would you get a bonus?

Consider rares that don't require effort to check. What loaded in seelie, locate object. What loaded on rot god in TTF, locate object. Did musphelim invasion load, locate object. Did Tarkan load in MD, sneak + hide.... should you get bonuses for being rare or just be valued on the difficulty of the fight?

Consider quests... How does turning in item x worth 1k points turn into 1.5k points because you gave it to a mob that was 1% load in a common !agro area or even an agro area thats easy to check? Is it really harder? When it loads it will be quested there isn't any risk perse, there could be a lot of "time" wasted checking it....

Should an item loading only in a specific month in a zone get bonus points for being "rare"?

Consider mobs that are 100% load but have rareload eq. You would have to kill over and over to get the eq. How does being a mob that repops vs a 1 per boot pop affect that? You wouldnt go kill the 1 per boot mob unless the eq was hidden you wouldnt even make the trip unless it was !locate. It makes no difference on the mob that repops because you will kill it over and over.

Now I suppose we should really be looking at time investment when considering what "hard" is... but some time is more valuable than other, and i would pause before granting extra value to say a rare in a zone that was 2000 rooms from the nearest home town because you can camp right there or next month someone might put a hometown in 20 rooms away. versus, putting a rare in a zone where you have to do the zone to check the rare (but then you need to calculate which part of the zone time is for the rare and which part is for the zone eq).
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:19 pm

I would think that yes, a rare item should receive a bonus just because of its rarity. Rare items foster competition, if they have a great enough value, and the more rare it is, the fewer flow into the game population. Competition in a game like Toril is a good thing. How many other areas in the game foster competition any more?
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Postby kiryan » Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:28 pm

... this is going to be a philosophical argument ... and i don't particulary expect everyone to agree and i dont think we need to decide on the 1 truth...

are rare items rare after everyone has one... whats gythka worth? whats a blessed wings of the angels worth? whats green dragonscale armor worth? What competition does chlora instill these days? silver dragon on EM? How did making these items rare create competition? I'm not sure rarity has much to do with competition in and of itself. Do you think there would be a competition over a rare load podville with low level eq?

The competition has always been in the quality of the eq and the risk vs reward. Storm bracelet was never bid in evil groups because it was sub par compared to boneshard wrist razor... Now its a 15 bid item? It was rare before and is rare today, so did rarity really come into play at all?

over time rarity doesnt grant any value through itself. There is that rush when things first come out, and demand tapers off over time. Are we buying good competition by over-valuing some rare items? Are we hurting legitimate zones and areas by creating easier to get items with similar value solely because they are "rare"?

I would see some rares considered more for their style value. They would be sought after because they are rare and stylish, but the stats should reflect the difficulty of the time invested (quality time not just running down to zk to check if it loaded) and the fight involved. Consider how highly valued restrings are... and why.

If ethereal eyepatch from ET had same stats as black eyepatch and were of the same difficulty, people would still want the black eyepatch for style. If you make black eyepatch easier than ET eyepatch with the same stats then all you do is bring down the value of the ET eyepatch.

People do rares today primarly because the risk vs reward is very good or because claiming rares you find is still an accepted practice.

Your time may be valuable to you, but if you wanna claim that you were idling for 6 months for a mob xyz to load that wasn't valuable time.

If being rare doesnt directly contribute in a significant way to the valuable effort expended then I don't think it should be considered in points....
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Dalar » Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:47 pm

How about we just drop the EQ calculator and assign stats the old fashion way? RISK VS REWARD.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Yarash » Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:50 am

Here are my thoughts on the matter.

If the player has to do the fight multiple times, the item should get more points.
- Normal mob, rare item, fight required (aggro in path in zone)
- Normal mob, rare item, fight optional & easy (airship, farmed)

If the fight is done once, it should get no extra points.
- Rare mob, normal item
- Normal mob, rare item, fight optional & hard (faelarae, not farmed)
- Normal mob, optional item (spob, guarenteed item from list of options)

Rare items should not be locatable when in posession of the mob. The harder it is to check rares, the better. Back on my old mud, we went into zones not knowing if we would get equipment or not. It seems kind of cheesy to me to be able to locate the items before doing a zone. Rares in zones should be surprises.

Also, that an item is less common makes it more valuable to players. Given equal fights, but one is done less than the other should not change the points given. That one is done less than another will make the item less common and more valued to players.

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Postby Sarell » Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:28 am

I think that rarity should definately add value to an item. However it should not add value to a zone in the points system, or lower the points used by an item, especially where something else loads in its place... ie, spob/nazi something always loads. A major hole in the points system is it can be used to make 5 awesome items load alternately instead of one decent item, thus detracting from any zone's doability if the zone was made prior to the points system - or where people haven't jacked up their points in cheesy ways to load silly amounts of items. I do like the idea of sometimes something cool loads in a zone, but not something different every time. I think clouds works well like this. Seelie would if you couldn't just locate what you wanted and do it accordingly.

Rares loading by themselves in non dangerous type zones I think also have a place. Most GC rares are valued for other quests in and out of the zone rather than any intrinsic value and I believe they work reasonably well. Of course people who mud from work have greater chance of aquiring them, but they also can't zone solidly etc. These type of tyhings accomodate players who have different capacities to play and differing play styles.

In the same way, timed rares and rares at boot can be kinda fun in the way that you know they have a chance or are going to be there, if located, however you might have to beat another group of players to them which can be really fun, especially with a bit bigger playerbase.

Sometimes it can be a real nuisance if you need a quest only item that is rare and someone has 100 of them in their bag, when you know too well they will never finish the quest.

I don't mind being able to locate musp invasion items. It doesn't load at boot, so it can be kinda fun when someone locates it and you try to form up. I think there is plenty of opportunity for locateable and !locate items, however locatable items shouldn't get bonus points for being rare. Some items that are locateable need to be flagged no locate, things like airship, ttf, oakvale single items that I think were actually changed to locatable?!?!?

I don't think risk VS reward is the answer, what is there to risk? your GF or mom getting angry at you for having to do a rare? :P Rares that load at dinner time should be worth like 12341234234234 points in my book then! *grins*
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Postby Yarash » Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:09 am

Sarell wrote:Some items that are locateable need to be flagged no locate

Or hidden. I think hidden is preferrable to !locate, when appropriate.

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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:43 pm

If it's a rare it should be !locate, without a doubt. Most of the rare items don't just appear in the world, they have a history of some kind, so if you couldn't locate them yesterday, then you shouldn't be able to locate them today, whether they're loaded or not... just write it off to some kind of magical energy interfering with the spell finding it.

And I don't think the rarity of an item should qualify it for a HUGE bonus, but I do believe there should be some kind of valuation placed on items that can't be collected every boot, with the bonus growing as the odds of item load shrinks.

Philosophically... there's so little chance of loss in this game, so just how much more effort is a zone going to be than hunting for a rare? A zone takes a few hours, half the PC's are afk through it, and when the group comes out, the majority of the PC's haven't learned a thing about the game, and still couldn't lead a zone after following a leader into it over a dozen times. I don't think a rare that can be picked up easily should have a huge value just because it's incredibly rare, but if it's a quest item, the rarity should definitely count into the value of the end reward, to a point. Theoretically a zone should kick our asses, and theoretically, a quest should involve serious work in learning the mechanics of the quest, with a lot of hours invested in workout out the puzzle. If people would stop sharing quest information, half the quest items in the game would still have a decent value in the mud, because the great majority of people who have them at this point in time, wouldn't.
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Postby Zen » Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:05 pm

Rare items deserve a significant stat boost, as the time and effort required to attain them is generally moderately to significantly greater than the time and effort put into attaining a specific, non-rare item. Sure, you're going to have some people just get dumb lucky and walk away with a reward that doesn't fit their efforts. In general, rares being of higher quality benefits the people who actually play the game enough to check rares, explore, zone etc.

I think the concept applies to zones like SPOB & Muspelheim as well. The number of trips it takes to get a Cyanite Eyepatch is significantly greater than the number of trips it takes to get an amythest ring, simply because of the random nature of the rewards. Its a different kind of rareity, granted, but I think its still valid. Regardless of the nature of the fights, hard or easy, it is more diffcult to attain a rare item than a common one. That difficulty warrants greater stats.

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Postby kiryan » Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:07 pm

<b>Rare items deserve a significant stat boost, as the time and effort required to attain them is generally moderately to significantly greater than the time and effort put into attaining a specific, non-rare item</b>

See and I think we agree that if it actually takes significant time and effort you should get a bonus. the question is does checking an easy to check rare constitute time and effort even if months go by?

consider spob heart loads 100% but i bet its less work and time investment for you to personally get an infernos scale than for you personally to get a spob heart. The time investment in getting a spob heart is 4 hours times 12 people or 48 hours * 12 trips (sometimes there is as many as 3 bids on larges, figure average of 12 trips to win each heart)... 576 hours. Are you going to spend more than 576 hours this year tracking down rares? Does it take more than 576 hours of actual effort to log a rogue alt on and check infernos to do a dscales robe? And again im talking about real quality time investment, not casting locate object or peeking at a mobs inventory.


Should zones give bonuses to items if there are only 1 or 2 rewards? Aren't you making them rare in a sense as its gonna be a 1/15 bid? isn't that really a 7% load for you as an individual even though it loads every boot?

Would you be ok if i loaded doombringer on the ground at TP on a 1 in 10000? You'd have to check TP a lot of boots, possibly years.... Does that balance the item or the quest?


I reject the notion that rares have value only in their stats. How much is a restring worth? Theres a certain amount of value inherent in simply being rare that doesnt need to be translated into eq stats. There is a certain satisfaction that questers get for having stuff no one else has.

consider a quest. where a quest mob wants 10 different objects that each load at 5% and the quest mob loads at 1%. over time there will be more complete sets of objects than quest mob loads so every time the quest mob loads it will be quested. should you get a bonus for the objs being 5% load and the quest mob being 1% load? What is the real rarity and difficulty of the quest?
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Botef » Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:30 pm

kiryan wrote:
I reject the notion that rares have value only in their stats. How much is a restring worth? Theres a certain amount of value inherent in simply being rare that doesnt need to be translated into eq stats. There is a certain satisfaction that questers get for having stuff no one else has.



Exactly! This is why I like the use of a unique/rare style of system similar to Diablo/Diablo 2 in that a mob always loads, or sometimes loads, an item - BUT sometimes that item is just a bit different, has some cool ansi and is really really rare. I think ii is an excellent concept because,

A: The rare item doesnt get any significant bonuses in terms of stats, which it shouldnt because the fight is the same as a normal load fight.

B: The item still has significantly increased value because very few, if any, other players have them and they look 'unique'.

Ive tossed around incorporating this into my zone writing as thats one thing I've always gained a great sense of accomplishment from when playing - that is having an item few other people have. Even if its something as trivial as a platinum bevor loading with a different name and ansi, I would still take pride in owning a 'unique' or 'rare' item that few if any other players has.
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Postby Sarell » Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:23 pm

On a side note i think relevant to this topic, I really really really hate quests that start on a rare mob that dissapears after questing. It means that you can NEVER find the quest once one person has done it and told it to all their friends, and the only wayu to find or do quests effectively becomes having someone tell you what to run and check at boot.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:19 pm

Said it before and I'll say it again. Rareload equipment is retarted.

Firstly, it almost encourages Immortal abuse of powers.

Secondly, it's exclusive nature makes it entirely the realm of players that are always on.

The greatest threat to the mud is the development of inane repetitive actions and one-dimensional boredom.

Rareload equipment is the epitome of both. It only rewards those who execute the repetitive action of checking the rare on each boot (as well as being on for each boot), and it further forestalls any forward action on a quest (if it doesn't load, you get to sit on your hands and wait for the next boot).

By limiting players in such fashion, it removes much of the enjoyment we would have recieved from what would have been otherwise epic quests (rather than just beating your head against the wall waiting for an item to laod).

Now, it's not that we should make quests easier, heck, make'em harder, but don't do it with rares.
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Postby Tasan » Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:14 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:Said it before and I'll say it again. Rareload equipment is retarted.

Firstly, it almost encourages Immortal abuse of powers.

Secondly, it's exclusive nature makes it entirely the realm of players that are always on.

...

Rareload equipment is the epitome of both. It only rewards those who execute the repetitive action of checking the rare on each boot (as well as being on for each boot), and it further forestalls any forward action on a quest (if it doesn't load, you get to sit on your hands and wait for the next boot).

By limiting players in such fashion, it removes much of the enjoyment we would have recieved from what would have been otherwise epic quests (rather than just beating your head against the wall waiting for an item to laod).

Now, it's not that we should make quests easier, heck, make'em harder, but don't do it with rares.


The same could be said of anything in the game. Zoning only rewards those who zone(and since there aren't too many times you could make 2 zone groups, this number is few). RP Campaign only rewards those that RP.

You seem to have a hard time trusting the immortals as well, since this isn't the first mention of power abuse. What has you so jaded? It's nice to be able to make accusations against the staff without being able to back them up.

Rares allow area makers to slow the influx of equipment into the game. Yes if it doesn't load you wait for it. This is one of the benefits for an area maker. If you have to check the rare, and they made it unlocateable, you will have to spend time in that zone. I fail to see how rares detract from the game, except for those who want instant gratification.

[sarcasm]Having to work to achieve things sucks! I want everything to load right in front of me![/sarcasm]

Rares limit you from completing a quest you heard about from some twink in a single boot, big deal. Perhaps you'd place more worth in them if you had to solve the damned thing yourself.

The greatest threat to the mud is the development of inane repetitive actions and one-dimensional boredom.


So remove another different facet to the game. Makes perfect sense... not.

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Postby rer » Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:01 pm

Personally, I like the challenge involved in quests, even when you have some vague, or even really good, idea of what's needed for the quest. There are so many rareload mobs and items used in questing that it's kinda fun to check every boot for the one mob that you happen to be looking for. And even more so if that means you have to zone to check it.

More power to rares, and more power to quests!!

Also, rareload eq, in some cases, SHOULD have better stats. If the mob is rareload and tougher than other mobs in the zone, AND the eq on that rareload mob is rareload itself, and !locate/hidden, it should have better stats. It should be a nice surprise/reward for going above and beyond.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:03 pm

Tasan wrote:You seem to have a hard time trusting the immortals as well, since this isn't the first mention of power abuse. What has you so jaded? It's nice to be able to make accusations against the staff without being able to back them up.


It's time to play a game of slam. *Slam* It's called creating a system which is less vulnerable to abuses. *Slam* This has nothing to do with trust, it's called development of a system where it is easier to trust. *Slam* Any successful organization has an ongoing development of a less vulnerable system. *Slam* There was zero accusation made in my comment. I am talking about building a system less vulnerable, less prone, and less possible to abuse.


Tasan wrote:Rares allow area makers to slow the influx of equipment into the game. Yes if it doesn't load you wait for it. This is one of the benefits for an area maker. If you have to check the rare, and they made it unlocateable, you will have to spend time in that zone.


*Slam* There are other methods to slow the influx of equipment, for instance, simply making worthwhile equipment harder to gather without using the escape of rareloads. *Slam* Rareloads have zero benefits for an area maker. If you wanted to make it harder, just make it harder. *Slam* a rogue sneaking around, then sneaking back out, isn't really 'spending time' in a zone.

Tasan wrote:I fail to see how rares detract from the game, except for those who want instant gratification.


*Slam* That's because you're blind. It's about being able to move forwards. If you fill a five minute length of road with a hundred stoplights, yes, it could take an hour to drive. Or you could just make it an hour drive. One is much less stupid than the other. *SLAM SLAM SLAM*

Tasan wrote:[sarcasm]Having to work to achieve things sucks! I want everything to load right in front of me![/sarcasm]


*Slam* This is the stupidest piece of text I have seen in quite a while.

Tasan wrote:Rares limit you from completing a quest you heard about from some twink in a single boot, big deal. Perhaps you'd place more worth in them if you had to solve the damned thing yourself.


*SLAM* Rares aren't 'solved'. They're waited for. *Slam* Just make the item difficult to twink, if you're worried about twinking.

Tasan wrote:So remove another different facet to the game. Makes perfect sense... not.

!!x


*Slam* You're an idiot if you can't see that Rareloads removes facets to the game. Making rareloads is a shortcut, making something difficult by default, rather than by an aspect of game play.

Rares are not a challenge in gameplay. They are a challenge TO gameplay.


By the way, you've been slammed.
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Postby rer » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:26 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Tasan wrote:[sarcasm]Having to work to achieve things sucks! I want everything to load right in front of me![/sarcasm]


*Slam* This is the stupidest piece of text I have seen in quite a while.


Your "*slams*" was the stupidest piece of text I have ever seen.

teflor the ranger wrote:
Tasan wrote:Rares limit you from completing a quest you heard about from some twink in a single boot, big deal. Perhaps you'd place more worth in them if you had to solve the damned thing yourself.


*SLAM* Rares aren't 'solved'. They're waited for. *Slam* Just make the item difficult to twink, if you're worried about twinking.


!!x was talking about solving the quests, not the rares. Thanks for playing Teflor.

P.S. Rares add to the game, not detract from it. Any time there's an additional facet, ie: Checking rares, that's a good thing. If you don't want to spend time checking rares, which I know that you don't from watching Agor do your quests for you, then don't, but don't whine about rares on here.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:28 pm

In order to reduce the influx of equipment to the point which rares keep some items at, all zones with that really nice equipment would have to be made as long, difficult and brutal as BC. In order to keep item influx at the level rares do, you'd have to essentially make all the zones with the really good gear ugly enough that nobody wants to go to them, let alone lead them. Some zones do this. Some zones use rares. Some people like zoning. Some people like questing. Some people hate rares. Some people love them.

I like rares, in spite of your objections to them.

With certain exceptions you can't two-man twink a rareload and force it to load. If players could figure out how to do it, they would have already.

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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:32 pm

rer wrote:
Tasan wrote:Rares limit you from completing a quest you heard about from some twink in a single boot, big deal. Perhaps you'd place more worth in them if you had to solve the damned thing yourself.


teflor the ranger wrote:*SLAM* Rares aren't 'solved'. They're waited for. *Slam* Just make the item difficult to twink, if you're worried about twinking.


!!x was talking about solving the quests, not the rares. Thanks for playing Teflor.


Actually, he was talkinga bout rares limiting the completion of quests.

Thank you for playing, Rer.

(By the way, Bel & Co. have a way of 'limiting the completion of quests', should they have carried an item required in a quest. kthx)


rer wrote:P.S. Rares add to the game, not detract from it. Any time there's an additional facet, ie: Checking rares, that's a good thing. If you don't want to spend time checking rares, which I know that you don't from watching Agor do your quests for you, then don't, but don't whine about rares on here.


No they don't, no they don't, no they don't.

Rares are a cheap cop out for making something difficult by simply making it not load as much.

If you truly wanted to make something difficult, you have all these alternatives:

puzzle
riddle
long and hard zones
(even to quote you, Rer "Sweet Jebus that's a long ass zone! Upgrade the lewt!!")
difficult fights
skill gradients (needing different skill sets for different parts of quests, which involves other people)

etc etc etc.


THESE would be adding to GAME PLAY.

Not standing around and waiting for next boot.

*SLAM*

By the way, Rer, while you're wearing most of Agor's gear, you might as well take your own advice, and not complain about anything on here, especially if you have no idea how many rares I've hunted down for the items you're wearing.
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:59 pm

Here's to hoping this thread can avoid continued slam/flame posts.

Rare EQ is one thing.
Rare EQ items for quests is another.

I personaly think these different aspects should be debated unto themselves.

To me:
-Rare loading mobs that have EQ you wear or use can be OK, especially if they can load at anytime during a boot, instead of just at boot (at boot only is !cool to me because it promotes twinkyness between players. So unless it's an invasion ((because invasions normally affect the whole zone)), then it just doesn't make sense to me to do this).

-Rare mobs that load with quest items to complete a quest that has only one possible result, is not cool. This detracts from the game. Waiting a month for the last rare to load for lich quest, wasn't making me want to play. It just made me log in to see if the mud had booted. Why? Cuz all I'm doing is sitting around (you know where) waiting for it to load into the game. To me, that's retarded. This does not add to gameplay, it detracts. It doesn't make doing the quest more engaging at all. How are you supposed to run and talk/kill a mob that's part of a quest, that you only have vague descriptions to finding from another mob, when it's not EVEN in the game? You have to ask people. Asking other players is not an increase in gameplay, at all.


G'luk thread.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:16 pm

For the peopel who just don't seem to understand, here would be a good example of an epic quest without the use of rareload equipment.

A trip through BC.

Three ancient wyrm scales (any named, loads each boot and can be global load dragon which puts a real hurt on)

Hulburg.

UM2.

SPOB.

A y shaped stick.

Three oak leaves.

(The topazes from the dscale guants quest. Whee that was fun.)

Something unique from a store in DK.

A bottle of whiskey.

PI.

A delicious cookie.

A fruit-filled cookie.

A jug of milk.

A chef's hat.

IC2.


Bam. Epic quest. No rareloads. Still going to take you months and months, unless you have 14 of the right class, high level, and willing friends on when you're on.

And it'd still take quite a bit of doing.

While granted, no quest would make sense like this, there could be ones built that would. A rareload is not the only way to introduce difficulty in a quest. (and i'd like to see you twink it in one boot.)
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Postby rer » Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:17 pm

Actually, Teflor, I replaced most, if not all of Agor's gear... I'm wearing a borrowed crown, bracer, and sleeves. The rest I got for myself.

And for my alts, all of the eq is mine at the moment.

Puzzles are solved quickly and easily and do not add much, especially since it's virtually impossible for the Imms to code something that has enough AI to remain a mystery for long. Even if there are 10 iterations of a puzzle, people will figure out and post all 10 solutions.

Riddles are the same way.

Long and hard zones are a pain in the arse. I came 4 hours into the zone, and was there for 10 hours. And left 14 pcorpses in my wake. Not something I'd care to repeat, nor am I likely to have TIME to complete any time in the near future. That's why BC is done about 4x a year. It takes 2 months to schedule it so people can clear their schedules and commit. And even then, you end up swapping players out partway through or adding players to sit and cast spells.

Also, I NEVER sit and wait for the next boot. If a particular rare I am looking for doesn't load, I move on and do something else and enjoy the game.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:08 am

Teflor, what you're missing is that while you don't care for the rareload system, what you like and what others like may not be the same thing. There are many kinds of quests in this game, and many other things to do besides quest. If you don't like doing rareload quests, the easiest thing is not to do them, isn't it? I can think of several quests off the top of my head that give decent gear and don't involve rareloads. If it's not there and you don't care to keep looking for it, find something else to do in the meantime.

Personally, I love a well built zone which gives clues to figure out whether or not there may be rareloads involved, suggestions of where they might be found, hints that travelers wander through the area, or however the zone maker wants to write it. It's figuring out the puzzle and finding something elusive which gives me the thrill of questing.

The one thing that annoys me most about rareloads is when people who know the quest farm it over and over, so that people new to the zone, trying to figure out its puzzles, have no chance of ever really learning it on their own. I find that to be the biggest detractor to rareload value in the game.
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Postby sok » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:45 am

*slam*

+1
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:59 am

rer wrote:Actually, Teflor, I replaced most, if not all of Agor's gear... I'm wearing a borrowed crown, bracer, and sleeves. The rest I got for myself.

And for my alts, all of the eq is mine at the moment.

Puzzles are solved quickly and easily and do not add much, especially since it's virtually impossible for the Imms to code something that has enough AI to remain a mystery for long. Even if there are 10 iterations of a puzzle, people will figure out and post all 10 solutions.

Riddles are the same way.

Long and hard zones are a pain in the arse. I came 4 hours into the zone, and was there for 10 hours. And left 14 pcorpses in my wake. Not something I'd care to repeat, nor am I likely to have TIME to complete any time in the near future. That's why BC is done about 4x a year. It takes 2 months to schedule it so people can clear their schedules and commit. And even then, you end up swapping players out partway through or adding players to sit and cast spells.

Also, I NEVER sit and wait for the next boot. If a particular rare I am looking for doesn't load, I move on and do something else and enjoy the game.


I can agree with much you have said here, but certainly, a creative unique combination of the above, as well as other obstacles would contribute to a well tuned, fun to play (even if the procedures are known) quest that could be enjoyed at any time.

Puzzles can be dynamically generated (say if the path to Izans changed every boot), riddles can come in a set and be answered with say relatively unknown items rather than with words or what have you.

Certain aspects can require that you have a special character or set of skills (say, female rogue for that part in dscale guants quest, or ... illusionist for concealing aura.)

Something that loads all the time still be impossible to twink.

That's what's called good gameplay.

By the way, dont' forget that bidding is a sort of "rareload" obstacle if you will when you go to these zones.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:05 am

Ashiwi wrote:Teflor, what you're missing is that while you don't care for the rareload system, what you like and what others like may not be the same thing.


Certainly, but doesn't it seem that rareload as a feature has been abused to an extent beyond what is reasonable?

Rareload seems to be the "universal fix" to any popular item. It's applied onto anything deemd "overpowered" or "easy to twink."

By simply introducing rares into any quest or other piece of equipment, we are really missing the opportunity to implement something truly creative. Losing the chance to really make something fun.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:23 am

rares definitely slow the influx of eq into the game. that really isn't debatable.

what is debatable is under what circumstances should being rare grant bonuses. Should items get bonuses just because they come into the game slower? Why?

If you actually have to kill a mob over and over across because the eq is rareload and undetectable, then real effort is expended each time and a 5% chance means you have to kill the mob 20x before you get the reward, the eq should be calcd based on killing the mob 20x.

If a mob rare loads a detectable piece of eq 5% its only going to be killed 1x, when it loads. the eq should be calcd based on killing the mob 1 time and possibly whatever effort is required to "check" the mob 20x. locate object = 0 effort, running up to IC 0 effort, searching through MD little effort, checking jot some effort (that primarly belongs to actually doing the zone rather than checking the rare).
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:23 pm

If it takes it a year to load, and you happen to be the first there to get it, then I still think it should have SOME point bonus for its rarity. Super-rare items are the closest thing this mud has to artifacts at the moment. I guess I kind of equate it to finding a twenty dollar bill lying on the ground. It's a rare occurrence, but it does happen.

There's no real way to fairly gauge the effort one person has to go through to check that rare, versus the effort a second person has to go through, as there are too many factors involved, unless you want to just consider the effort involved inside the zone, and I think that should be taken into account, as well as the rarity of the load.

Oh, and addressing the effort involved... that's always been one of the touchier points involved in assigning the value of an item, in my opinion. Whose effort are we comparing the difficulty to? Is it Pava's effort? Is it the effort of some random player who might neither play a rogue, nor have one as a friend who is willing to run check that item for them on a regular basis? Is it Inama's effort? Is it the effort of some random player who doesn't have an Inama tucked away for emergency use? I always feel bad, somehow, when effort involved in getting something is compared to the effort it takes me to get it, and it's an item I can get easily, and Inama can get things it takes other people decent sized groups to tackle.
Last edited by Ashiwi on Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:27 pm

kiryan wrote:rares definitely slow the influx of eq into the game. that really isn't debatable.


Of course ti slows the influx of eq. That's not being debated.

The question being asked is:

At what cost? Creativity? Originality? The heart of gameplay?

There is no enjoyment here. There's no thought process.
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Postby Cyric » Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:55 pm

Your entire argument would work better if you spelled "retarded" correctly.

Cyric - Forger of Gameplay, Originality, and Creativity.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:11 pm

I'm glad you know how to spell it. Seen it a lot in your life have you?

I'll try not to use it so much.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:37 pm

Really people, that's too far. You think we can ramp this down a notch and avoid the namecalling and thinly (or not so thinly) veiled insults from all around? Please?

I understand the other point of view, but until the people who don't like rareloads start building zones that utilize other systems, there's really not much argument here. If a zone builder likes using the rareload system, then that's their option. Did you want to start forcing builders to do it a way you enjoy more?
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:54 pm

Gotta let us get into it sometimes mom :P I doubt anyone's feelings are hurt enough it keeps them from continuing this dog and pony show - seeing as how people are still taking shots at each other.

Bottom line is while we all support the slowing of the influx of equipment to the game, there's scant other reasons to support the use of rareload.

I mean, is there any other good reason for rareloads?
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:04 pm

I can think of plenty of reasons in an RP/Zone Theme aspect.

You can't think of a single reason why a person might be in one area for a short time, then leave? Or why an item laying on the ground might be there one day, but not the next? Or why somebody might choose to wear a certain piece of clothing today, but not tomorrow?

I like rareloads that fit in well with the zone and have some thought behind them. Things like rareload bodyparts that a creature needs to live, however... that's kind of silly.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:07 pm

Hmm.. I can agree that rareloads can be skillfully used, but generally, where most complaints seem to be is where they are not - or if there is no purpose other than to 'slow the influx,' where perhaps a better method might have been employed.

I would still have to suggest that some caution be used in applying rareloading - just as long as we don't have to jump on every time the mud crashes to check rares before some of the muddicts get to it.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:39 pm

It might help future builders if you could detail some of your ideas for systems which would keep item influx low, wouldn't incorporate rareloads, wouldn't be easily twinkable, and wouldn't require being put on boss mobs in a zone, as there's tons more quest items needed out there than there are zone bosses.

There may be builders looking for inspiration in this area who are considering the same factors.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
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Postby rer » Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:40 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:Gotta let us get into it sometimes mom :P


She's MY mom, bastard! Get yer own!
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Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:49 pm

Ashiwi wrote:If it takes it a year to load, and you happen to be the first there to get it, then I still think it should have SOME point bonus for its rarity. Super-rare items are the closest thing this mud has to artifacts at the moment. I guess I kind of equate it to finding a twenty dollar bill lying on the ground. It's a rare occurrence, but it does happen.


i think the bonus is in that it is rare, not that it has great overvalued stats.

Ashiwi wrote:There's no real way to fairly gauge the effort one person has to go through to check that rare, versus the effort a second person has to go through, as there are too many factors involved, unless you want to just consider the effort involved inside the zone, and I think that should be taken into account, as well as the rarity of the load.

Oh, and addressing the effort involved... that's always been one of the touchier points involved in assigning the value of an item, in my opinion. Whose effort are we comparing the difficulty to? Is it Pava's effort? Is it the effort of some random player who might neither play a rogue, nor have one as a friend who is willing to run check that item for them on a regular basis? Is it Inama's effort? Is it the effort of some random player who doesn't have an Inama tucked away for emergency use? I always feel bad, somehow, when effort involved in getting something is compared to the effort it takes me to get it, and it's an item I can get easily, and Inama can get things it takes other people decent sized groups to tackle.


good point. I would have to say that you need to measure effort the same way the eq calcr does. # of mobs, classes, flags.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:20 am

rer wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Gotta let us get into it sometimes mom :P


She's MY mom, bastard! Get yer own!


But you keep claiming them. Including my own :P
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:23 am

Cyric,

Thank you for all the work you do on the mud - we all enjoy it very much. If you've taken my criticism of the use of rareloading personally, I apologize and could have been clearer.

Teflor
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Postby Corth » Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:56 am

Cyric makes an appearance....
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.

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