BC bids

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
kiryan
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BC bids

Postby kiryan » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:00 am

I DON'T REALLY WANT ANY DISCUSSION. I WANT YOUR OPINIONS AND NO DISCUSSION OF ANYONE ELSE'S OPINION UNLESS YOU JUST WANT TO SAY YOU LIKE OR DON'T LIKE XYZ SUGGESTION. im probably smart enough to figure out why you dont like a particular suggestion.

I want input primarily from people who have done BC, and limited input from those that havent about how BC runs should be bid.

some avernus/bc runs have been as few as 8 hours some have been over 12. average warriors tend to die 15-20 times each other players tend to die about 10 times. Rogue typically dies very infrequently to never but rogue is a major player and very active. Enchanter is probably the most overworked player throughout the zone. No one is really able to afk.

the main eq is: Dagger (majority of bids), Sleeves (a few bids), Amulet (a couple bids), Robe (very few bids), Bracelet (sometimes bid), supple chainmail (never bid), the quest (was never offered for bid in the past).

open bids were very lopsided on dagger over 3/4 of the group.

the comments im fielding are that it sucks to go to the zone for 8+ hours and have to bid against a million people for something they couldnt even use... i have to ask how does it suck less to go to a 8 hour zone and be denied the ability to bid on one of the rewards?

Some things I've considered.

1) 1 bid point per hour of zoning (avernus + bc)

2) 1 bid point for each portion avernus, bc, bel

3) auction the eq for bid points.

4) an auction system where the cost goes up until an even distribution of bids on eq is achieved. target around 6 bids on dagger.

5) lilithelle's seelie bid system

6) lilithelle's spob bid system

7) dagger hand out. Im a big enough asshole that i wouldnt really care. however, im worried about people not wanting to go because they gonna have 0 chance of going and a little worried that less vocal people would lose out to more vocal people.

8) dagger bid only for rogues in group or if you personally have a 50 rogue (possibly a 50 rogue of consequence ie played).

9) dagger dice 1, 15 so the rest of the eq will have real bids.

10) price the eq, like the dagger is worth 9 points and you can't buy the dagger until you have enough points if multiple people have enough points then dice either fairly or dice based on total accumulated points (favors people who have gone more times)

11) limit each person to wining/claiming only one dagger every 15 trips. taking home no more than one piece of eq every 3 or 4 trips.

12) a sliding scale price system based on # of points being bid with costs going up. so if there are 1000 bids sometime in teh future a dagger might cost 600 points where it only costs 9 points today.

13) an extra bid for every trip you failed to win.

14) an auction system where you may get 20 points for a zone and you can risk x points on a dice but you lose any wagered points. so if you risk 10 points you have 10 points for next trip. if you risk all 20, next time its the same as going the first time. possibly bonus points given for opting not to bid.

15) a group vote on who should win the dagger. then split the rest of the eq in a more reasonable manner.

16) fuk history fuk points, straight dice fair and square.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby rer » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:12 am

Here's Gormal's Bidding System - I think it looks about right for BC...

http://www.billimek.com/netheril/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=799&start=0

Also, I didn't bid the dagger because my rogue is only lvl 15. By the time I'm ready for a dancing dagger or two, I'll rogue BC and earn it for myself. There's no reason not to close bids on an item that's only usable by one class, especially when that one class is fairly overworked.

Now, as a warrior with 14 pcorpses in the last run, not to mention the 3 subsequent lost levels and all the massive hours of skill prac that I had, I want to say that warriors (just like the overworked enchanter) deserve some special consideration. But, quite frankly, our job, as tanks, is but to die so that the rest of the group can live. And we did that frequently.

Also, I agree with you - EXP is GOOD before one of those runs. I won't be taking Rer back there until he's 300% past 50 - just practicing all of those skills again is gonna pwn my ptime for a while.
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Postby Vahok » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:19 am

Personally, I detest the extra bids for loses and abstains. I look at it like the lottery...we can't fault people for being lucky and every buys a ticket so to speak (by putting the time in to zone). If you do BC 50 times and someone only goes once, odds are the player with 50 runs is more likely to win. However, the idea of bids costing more is interesting with every player getting multiple bids (dagger costs 3, everyone has three...feel free to toss all bids on dagger). Then dagger becomes the lottery jackpot but you still can win a free ticket type idea. That way fairness is maintained and the leader never needs to worry about keeping track of previous runs. Also, could eliminate the possibly of leaders doctoring bids. Not that I feel it happens but it techniqually could happen, ie. Player X gets more bids because leader says they gone to more runs then they have actually gone into. I mean, I don't keep track on other players and how many runs they have gone/lost on...do you? I feel my idea would help both hardcore, regular zoners and more casual zoners as well.

Random thoughts..
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:20 am

Until the rest of the EQ gets some serious loving, I'd say your #9 option there would be best.

And yeah I've done BC a few times.
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Postby Jhorr » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:25 am

My $0.02:

The dagger is the hard part but I think the rogue who does the zone should have the greatest chance of winning the dagger (unless they have won recently or already have 2). Similarly, a mage should have best chance of winning amulet, warriors best chance of winning sleeves, etc.

In other words, for this zone you should have a system where people are discouraged on bidding for their alts: give people 2 bids for each part of zone they do (up to 6 bids). Let them use all 6 bids if they place them only on something the character they brought can use from the zone. If they bid for an alt, they should get less bids (like 3). That way, if you bring 1 rogue they'll have twice as good chance of winning the dagger as anyone else. This will work until you have people who have already won items coming back for other items.

Keeping track of who wins and who doesn't win (like Lili's SPOB system) is a good idea as it will build incentive for losers to come back next time. For example, if you go home empty handed you get a coupon for 2 extra bids to use next time. (If you actually had a token or something to hand out that would absolve you from all the record keeping.)

Thanks btw for trying to figure out something fair ... it won't be easy.
Last edited by Jhorr on Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Vahok » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:31 am

Jhorr, the only major problem I can see with your idea is this...from time to time, players don't get to choose the class they play in the zone. Leaders ask us to swap often to a needed class for the zone so I don't think "punishing" a player for that is right. Mind you, I do think maybe a mininum level requirement is a good idea (40+?).

Big fan of the token/coupon idea as well. Puts the ownership on the player and not the leader. And the leader could never be accused of cheating then as well.
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Postby rer » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:41 am

Jhorr, your idea makes sense. However, I know that there were several people with active high level rogue alts - Cofen and Thalash come to mind... I know that Agor would have preferred playing as Cofen, but the rogue slot was filled. Therefore, he has to be penalized for not playing the character he is starting to consider his main? Same goes for Thalash.

Or, say for example, I was asked to come as my Shaman, who I consider my alt at the moment. What I really want from the zone is the spanky 3dam sleeves for my main, Rer, but I get penalized on my bid for them because there wasn't room for my main to come, just for my alt.

Just things to think about. I mean, at this point, when you get a group together like the one for BC yesterday, everybody in the group has zoned with at least 1, if not more, of every other players characters. We all know each other, and, while keeping track of alts can be a pain, we have a pretty good idea of the players truly active characters.

So, rather than saying you're penalized for a bid on something that the particular character in zone can't use, like the dagger, maybe the solution is to have the mwrite include the char name that you're bidding the item for. If it's a truly active character, the leader is going to recognize the name of that character. So, as my shaman, bidding the sleeves for my Warrior Main, Rer, it would go something like:

mwrite kiryan sleeves - Rer
+w

If the leader is getting mwrites like this:

mwrite kiryan dagger - Imo
+w

where Imo is my level 15 rogue, he's going to spot that a mile away. Very few people (until now) even knew I have a rogue. And it'll be a long time before that rogue is high enuf level, with decent enuf skillz, to be zoneable and active. That's when a penalty should be applied to the bid.

I like your thoughts Jhorr!
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Postby rarlaj » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:45 am

just being a noob and not even worring about going to that zone for awhile....

can you give me the names of the items (no stats) just names?

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Postby Jhorr » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:51 am

Rarlaj, follow the link above re: Gormal's system.
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Postby Pril » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:51 am

I don't think at this point the other eq in there is a problem with bidding since it's not as good as it should be the only problem is the dagger. Really ot doesn't matter to me if you hand it to rogue or only let people who actually have a rogue (45+? 50?) and play them activley can bid it. It just seems silly for someone to bid that dagger when they have a lvl 5 rogue or don't even have one just for the sake of trading it.

so I'd say go with options: 7 or 8. Once the rest of the eq becomes justifiable then go with something like option 6 (lili's spob system)

Oh and jhorr the token idea is great.

Pril
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Postby Corth » Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:59 am

When I lead BC twice, I gave the dagger each time to the rogue that accompanied us on the trip. Both times, it was Nokie. I can't really justify why i did it. I guess I kind of felt that BC was more than just a normal zone with stuff that needs to get distributed afterwards. To me, the zone had more of an epic feel, and I decided that it was appropriate that the rogue who was actually there get the item. I felt this way despite the fact that quite a few members of those groups had high level rogue alts, and in fact, one member of the group had a rogue primary, but played his elementalist at my request. Definately a difficult call, and very hard to justify... and I caught a bit of flack for it, especially the second time.

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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:55 am

I'm a cross between a straight bid and handouts/restricted bids. While I prefer straight bids in most zones, some zones scream for other tactics. Tiamat would definitely be a restricted bid zone. BC would be a restricted bid zone. Zones with top level gear that even long time players need are more of the restricted bid type of zone.

I'm sorry, but while I believe that everybody who works for it should have a shot at what they want, I think that people who bid repetitively on high end items they don't need, just for tradebait or whatever, are incredibly inconsiderate to their other groupmembers who might really need it. Just because you "deserve" a bid doesn't mean you always have to take it. I've noticed that groups tend to run better when all the groupmembers are well equipped for their job. You screw my cleric out of something he needs, you screw me as well.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:36 am

if I do points, and give points out for different parts of the 3 stage zone (avernus, bc, bel) then you would only be able to use points if your actually were there when bel dies.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Tasan » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:33 am

Corth wrote:When I lead BC twice, I gave the dagger each time to the rogue that accompanied us on the trip. Both times, it was Nokie. I can't really justify why i did it. I guess I kind of felt that BC was more than just a normal zone with stuff that needs to get distributed afterwards. To me, the zone had more of an epic feel, and I decided that it was appropriate that the rogue who was actually there get the item. I felt this way despite the fact that quite a few members of those groups had high level rogue alts, and in fact, one member of the group had a rogue primary, but played his elementalist at my request. Definately a difficult call, and very hard to justify... and I caught a bit of flack for it, especially the second time.

Corth


You also had no one questioning your split however. Everyone agreed that it was deserved.

I still think this is the way things should be. BC is a test of a rogue(hopefully) and that is a very nice reward. Regardless of how many alts you have in the group, it still should stay that way. There will be other trips, there will be other chances to earn something. It's kinda sad that people will only do a 3rd tier zone for eq. Personally I've gone 3x and had fun every time regardless of bids.

Also, Kiryan, your numbers as far as deaths is a little off. Twyl and Nokie died 3x in 1 run, and our warriors didn't get to 15 let alone 20 deaths. I believe things will go more smoothly the more times you do it, and the more people that understand the workings of the zone, just like anywhere else. Chance plays a large part and all w/ the door, but things don't have to be _that_ out of hand.

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Postby Dalar » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:20 am

i like gormal's system, b/c u know, I made it.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Lahgen » Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:46 am

16, all the way.
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Postby ssar » Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:38 am

That dagger needs special consideration and bidding system.

First priority chance to win it should be rogue in group if they need it (and will use it).
Next and lesser priority chance to players in group with lvl 50 active rogue alt who need it (and will use it).
If none of the above need it, then dice 1 15 total random.
Only players that finish the zone qualify for bidding on it, and no player can win it more than once in 3 successful BC hunts (or some such restriction on multiple big wins), regardless.

This (or whatever conventions) should be stated openly when forming/planning for the hunt, and confirmed before the group hits the zone with details about which rogue alts are going to be in the bidding for the dagger at the end (if applicable).

But Gormal's BC bidding system looks fine.
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Postby Ruxur » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:05 pm

what are the stats on that dagger anyhow? it cant be THAT great
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Postby Ruxur » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:06 pm

what are the stats on that dagger anyhow? it cant be THAT great
Cofen group-says 'wtf, why am i missing a cursed khanjari?'

Alendar group-says 'i r rednek i can only afford the monitor i have mud on and the broken monitor under it'

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Postby shalath » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:22 pm

This is a tough one to call. At the start of the run, I was playing my main (Thalash) to rogue the zone. I've rogued BC twice before, and I love it. It's a challenge, and it's fun. That's the reason I wanted to go the moment I heard that Kiryan was leading.

Then we had trouble getting hold of a full group. As it happens, I also have a lvl 50 chanter and a lvl 48 Illusionist (we'll ignore the cleric and mentalist for now). Kiryan needed an enchanter and an illusionist to be able to do the zone, and none were turning up. So he asked me and jhorr to swap to our alt chanter and illus.

Now don't get me wrong, I usually don't mind playing whichever alt is needed to get zones done. But in this particular instance, it was boring as hell. As illusionist, all I really did in BC was mindlessly displace people over and over, mindlessly flux as many demons as I can, and drop in the odd bit of extra damage (not really needed with four invokers but it doesn't hurt). No tactical work with stunning - they're all demons, you can't stun them. No real work sneaking around or luring - we have a rogue to do that. Can't really wander off and have fun, because if I *do* screw up and get everyone killed, it's a lot more serious than doing it in say jot. Boring boring boring. However, I did it to enable the group to go (because I think BC is done rarely enough anyway and would be a shame not to).

If the dagger had just been given to Ashiwi, I would have seen it as a punishment for my having needed alts. Not only does she get the only fun slot in the group, but I have to trudge through for her to get awarded the prize? No way. Glad Kiryan didn't do that.

However, it also gets on my nerves that the dagger was won by someone who, if they have a rogue alt, certainly isn't a "known" rogue. You know? Not meaning anything against Vena here - she plays her invoker as well as is needed to play an invoker, and she's a lovely person to talk to. But it's irritating that either the dagger will sit on a little used alt, or be used as trade.

My ideal bidding system would be that the dagger is diced amongst those of the group who have well known, high level, active rogues.

-akeb
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:31 pm

Honestly, the best part about any particular bidding system is that it is a system.

Thus predictable and fair.

It falls upon whomever is operating the split to do it
1) right
2) fair
3) once
all_of_the_above) the first time.

Whoever volunteers to do the split should eat any errors and carry square the blame (and the damages) for messing up a bid.

Furthermore, let anyone bid on whatever they want. It's a system of bids. If a non-ranger wants to bid on arrows, heck, let'em. You still get your fair bid. I don't believe that anyone has any more of a right to a piece of equipment in zone than anyone else who goes and participates (except for maybe the group leader, but just give them all the leftover loot and they'll probably be happy)

(This is not a promotion for dice it square each and every time... But it seems like that would be the easiest way.)
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:34 pm

shalath wrote: Not meaning anything against Vena here - she plays her invoker as well as is needed to play an invoker, and she's a lovely person to talk to. But it's irritating that either the dagger will sit on a little used alt, or be used as trade.


Vena gave the dagger to me. I felt very bad for wishing innumerable STD's on her for winning it.
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Postby shalath » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:39 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Vena gave the dagger to me.

A very good result. I'm happy now :-)
Ashiwi wrote:I felt very bad for wishing innumerable STD's on her for winning it.

I could volunteer to distribute those STDs if you need someone...

-thalash
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Postby Ambar » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:56 pm

shalath wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:Vena gave the dagger to me.

A very good result. I'm happy now :-)
Ashiwi wrote:I felt very bad for wishing innumerable STD's on her for winning it.

I could volunteer to distribute those STDs if you need someone...

-thalash


I'm sure your wife is happy as hell about your offer. :P
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Postby kiryan » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:58 pm

17) I would like to say that if you bid and trade a top BC item (for moment this is dagger and sleeves) you can expect to never bid that item in my group again. However, I have a hard time deciding if this is fair considering the relatively equal effort of all parties involved.

18) giving myself a minimum 25% chance to win whatever i want. If my bids add up to < 25% of total bids on an item I just give myself 25%

19) honoring/carrying forward points earned on dartan's expeditions.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Dalar » Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:37 pm

The following considerations were made when I created my bidding system:

1) Time: The zone is primarily split up into 3 different tasks. Clearing the outside rings, clearing the citadel, then doing Bel. Each task takes roughly 2 hours. Bel was only given 0.5 points due to the fact that you could get replacements in at that time and the Bel fight varied, depending on group competence, skill, and makeup.

2) Newbie friendly: A new player had 1/3 the chance of getting an item compared to someone who had lost twice in a row. I capped it at 3 because after 3 attempts, there should be around 15 decent BC items out there and they should have a good chance of getting one. Good BC items are: dagger/sleeves/robe (if upgraded)/mage neck/something I can't remember.

3) Desirabillity to come back: Everyone will want to keep going back for as many daggers as they can get. The -5 point reduction on eq means they can win at least every 3 runs, which helps equip other people at the same time. 3 runs is alot!
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Lim » Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:47 am

being forced into solving the wrong problem.

if the zone takes 8 hours then there needs to be more loot / quest stuff.


Maybe the gods don't really care that the zone is hardly ever done. They should.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:55 am

Lim wrote:being forced into solving the wrong problem.

if the zone takes 8 hours then there needs to be more loot / quest stuff.


Maybe the gods don't really care that the zone is hardly ever done. They should.


Welcome to TorilMUD
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Thilindel » Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:05 am

I liked Touk's system. He'd look at each person bidding's eq. If you needed it most, you'd get it. If you did win something, you'd put whatever the slot being replaced up for bids. Trouble is some ppl may try to dress down for the zone, but the pivotal part of BC is just a stupid dagger. Can't have 10+ rogues doing that zone :P
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Postby Burmadapig » Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:52 am

Decide who you are doing the dagger for up front and hand it out.

To decide this, find out which characters have a rogue as main and don't have a BC dagger. If none have main that is rogue or their main has one, find out which ones have rogue alts. Choose the highest level rogue alt to be the one who it is done for.

Do normal bidding flavor of your choice on the rest. Everyone knows what to expect that way and they can choose not to go if they don't like the handout.

Evils always used to do handouts by need and then what they replaced was handed down to the next highest need. It doesn't work like that any more it seems.
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Postby Kegor » Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:19 am

Too many alts these days for that system. Unless it's an all guild event or its diamond ring from Avernus that one time, I just dice it. The drawback of dice is that it really sucks for the people that haven't been playing since pwipe and only have one or two characters that could really use eq. In this even I like to encourage the hand-me down system, but most people are too much of eq whores for that. The old players are a lot more numerous than the newbie players tho. So at the end of the day, apathetic dicing system works best imo.

* Zoom
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Postby Maedor » Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:36 pm

I think you should get 1 point for every hour you spend in bc. If you leave early, you lose 1/4 of your points. This should discourage people from committing to a zone and not following through. It's also annoying to have to reshuffle and reform when people bail, and whoever causes that delay should be held responsible to a degree.

If you don't have at least 75% of the max points available, then you cannot bid the dagger.

Also-if you don't have a 46+ rogue that you actually play and zone with, the dagger bid should be restricted. We don't need any BC daggers on auction:P


So at the end of the day-the rogues who committed to this long zone have the best chance at the item that is intended for them.

I didn't have time to read everyone's posts...sorry if i hijacked your ideas.
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Postby Disoputlip » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:15 am

To balance the bidding the zone should have a cleric only item
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Re: BC bids

Postby thanuk » Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:51 am

kiryan wrote:
average warriors tend to die 15-20 times each

7) dagger hand out. Im a big enough asshole that i wouldnt really care. however, im worried about people not wanting to go because they gonna have 0 chance of going and a little worried that less vocal people would lose out to more vocal people.

8) dagger bid only for rogues in group or if you personally have a 50 rogue (possibly a 50 rogue of consequence ie played).

15) a group vote on who should win the dagger. then split the rest of the eq in a more reasonable manner.



I only did it once. I dont think i died more than 7 times, including avernus. To be fair that was a guild run and probably at our prime(see Arilin's post in logs to revel in our fall from grace) so group was very comfortable with one another and worked well as a team.

I gotta say I would've been upset if someone other than Nokie had gotten the dagger. It was a guild run though, so I don't know how that factors in. On the otherhand, I don't think you could just go up there with a Merc group and run through it, you need people who know how to play together.

If your not gonna just hand it to the rogue, then you have to have a character that couldve gone to BC (as in level 46+ and has the eq to survive up there; all jot eq alts camped in DS don't count) then you can bid on the items they can wear. I would apply this to all the eq, not just the dagger.

You get into systems and complex math problems for the bids and it all goes downhill. History is kinda bullshit too, not my problem you lost your bid last month; write a friggin letter to your congressman.

Last word: If your going to hand out the dagger, make sure its perfectly clear right in the beginning that its being handed out and who the person getting it is. Nothing pisses me off more than the "thanks for coming btw im claiming the best item kthxbye" AKA pulling a Mikar in jot invasion.
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Re: BC bids

Postby Sarell » Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:09 pm

thanuk wrote: On the otherhand, I don't think you could just go up there with a Merc group and run through it, you need people who know how to play together.


You sure can! :)

thanuk wrote: You get into systems and complex math problems for the bids and it all goes downhill. History is kinda bullshit too, not my problem you lost your bid last month; write a friggin letter to your congressman.


I agree, I always just random dice everything. If your unlucky, that sucks. Odds are you will have some luck one day, I don't know anyone that has been zoning lots that doesn't have good gear.

On the other hand, handouts work if pre-arranged, I've done several epic adventures just for the sake of smiting knowing full well I'd come out the other side with nothing but level loss and a cranky GF. I'd still be up for heaps more!
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Re: BC bids

Postby Salen » Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:44 am

thanuk wrote:
kiryan wrote:Last word: If your going to hand out the dagger, make sure its perfectly clear right in the beginning that its being handed out and who the person getting it is. Nothing pisses me off more than the "thanks for coming btw im claiming the best item kthxbye" AKA pulling a Mikar in jot invasion.


Holy Christ, I agree with Nuk. Handing out crap without telling people up front you are going to sucks nuts. This goes for odd bidding too, such as... 'You weren't here for the first 20 minutes of a 3 hour zone so you can't bid on the cool thing that came from the huge ass fight you were just a part of even though without you we couldn't have done the zone let alone the bigass fight.'
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