contagion

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Teyaha
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contagion

Postby Teyaha » Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:47 pm

although it's nice to have something besides blackmantle to cast from 8th circle, and it's nice to have wither and ray in one spell there appear to be two problems:

1) successful land rate

2) duration is shorter than either ray or wither


typical land rates for me are between 11 and 18 percent. i track how many contagions i cast and how many hit, as well as how many my pets cast and how many hit. there is no error in the tracking as even if a contagion is active and another hits you still get a room echo of said effect. i'm using a modified version of belcalc, a set of triggers used to track hits and misses. for example here are my stats for the last hour.

kills: 24
Contagions Cast: 100 Contagions Hit: 11
Vamp Curse Cast: 12 Vamp Curse Hit: 10


vampiric curse on the other hand lands better than 50% of the time. ray and wither fluctuate greatly between 10% and 25%

these has been tested the last two days on ship (mobs my level and greater level 49 necro) and in dk (mobs 7 levels and lower).

i think the land rate is far too low for the duration of the spell. any possibility of tweaking it to better than 50%? thanks.

edit: i know some ar egonna say 'use banshee wail' however i have less than 400hp and casting a 5 * aoe spell without first hampering the mobs ability to switch every round is suicide atm. i have tested with banshee wail and the land rate of contagion just barely hits 50%.
fotex
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Postby fotex » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:02 pm

If switches are such a problem for you, you should consider using undead that bash.
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:03 pm

this is not a debate about switches. if it wasnt for switches, or if necros had blind, their lives would be way too easy.

this is about the simple fact that this spell has a less than 20% chance to actually hit a target lower level than me, which is silly.
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Postby Botef » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:20 pm

Agreed....
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:08 pm

after 3 hours....

Kills: 58
Contagions Cast: 230 Contagions Hit: 30
Vamp Curse Cast: 56 Vamp Curse Hit: 25

13%
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:19 pm

I'd like to see it hit more often too actually, but I think..more like guess vamp curse hits more cuz it's quested and seems the spectre suffers more than benefits from it. No idea, just my guess. Wither/Ray both hit way more often than contagion in my testing
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:43 pm

the only hole in that logic is that contagion is just a way of keeping us from having to cast both ray and wither. from what i can see it's effect isnt more than these spells individually and it's duration is shorter. as for the slow effect - well spectres and ghasts proc that every fight without fail.

if the purpose of this spell was to cut down on how many spells we'd have to cast to get the desired effect then it's hit rate on something my level really needs to be 50%, with the hit rate going down as their level in relation to me increases and at the same time the hit rate approaching 100% as their level is lower to me.
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Postby kiryan » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:11 pm

did you wail the mobs first?

its a huge debuff. you should always wail your targets, more damage, easier to land spells, not sure but i think its less defenseive skills/ac too.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:46 pm

no i dont always wail, and the 13% was no wailing on level 41 mobs in dk.

wailing isn't always feasible as i cant handle a roomful of shit my level if i get an walkin at that last instant, nor should it be REQUIRED to land a spell.

as i said above, with wail, the land rate is still less than 50%. as in, it doesnt always land after a wail either. that's unacceptable and 13% average land rage is wholly unacceptable for any spell especially an 8th circle spell with less duration and effect than 3rd and 4th circle spells.
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Postby fotex » Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:57 am

Teyaha wrote:that's unacceptable


I agree, upgrade Teyaha please. Leave everyone else the same. 8)
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Postby Teyaha » Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:14 pm

fotex wrote:
Teyaha wrote:that's unacceptable


I agree, upgrade Teyaha please. Leave everyone else the same. 8)


damned straight.

although making contagion hit more isnt an upgrade, as i can get ray and wither to hit far more often and in less time per fight. it's more like a sideways move for convenience.
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Postby lintral » Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:38 pm

Teyaha wrote:
fotex wrote:
Teyaha wrote:that's unacceptable


I agree, upgrade Teyaha please. Leave everyone else the same. 8)


damned straight.

although making contagion hit more isnt an upgrade, as i can get ray and wither to hit far more often and in less time per fight. it's more like a sideways move for convenience.


So, you can successfully cast/land two spells before you land contagion, yet you refuse to use banshee wail.

Banshee Wail + Contagion = two spells also. With the additional side effect of slow (yes the undead proc this) and the additional side effect of causing the mob to have a higher chance of failing saving throws against your damage spells.

Truthfully, seems like more an issue of your priorities whilst spellcasting to me.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:18 am

tey brings up a good point with wail being area affect.

can necros get a single target version of wail perhaps at a lower circle? Would be really cool if it was a very low circle like 1st or 2nd circle spell that was about 25% as effective as level 50 banshee wail and grew in effectiveness directly related to spellcast necromancy skill to 125% at 50.

tey you still miss the boat with refusing to cast the spell. its easily one of the more powerful necro spells (even though it seems to be undervalued by the current population).
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Postby lintral » Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:19 am

Wail will only aggro mobs that recognize the spell when it's cast, and not those who get tagged by it upon completion. So walkins aren't a problem, you just are limited by what's in the room when you cast it. And even then it's not a sure thing that you'll get jumped.
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Postby Teyaha » Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:17 am

since when?

captain miplit's parrot hit me when it landed on it.

there are times when the aoe, and it being a 5 star cast for someone with 390hp, are not feasible when fighting things that can kill you on a switch before you have time to flee or even at times before your auto rescue trigger orders the spectre to rescue you.

but i'm not going to argue semantics. 13% land rate on any spell is stupid from a game design point of view

oh and lintral, wither+ray still does not equal the casting time of banshee wail and contagion.

and kiryan, i love ya, but i never said i refused to cast the spell. i have used it and noticed that the land rate never approaches 50% after a successful banshee. i stated as such in the very first post above. however why cant i land a fucking 8th circle spell on a level 41 mob reliably without having to use a 10th circle spell FIRST? that is the root of the problem from a purely gameplay point of view.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:27 am

pet rescue trrigs lag just too much anyway ... do it manually ...

Hate seeing pet owners in general bitch about stuff that can kill them on switch ... mages are supposed to be frail in body and strong in mind ... the strengths in mind need an offset, a risk, a challenge, compared to the power they wield with their mind

I know you want the class to be more effective (or so it seems to you) .. but consider how much you can solo and chose your battles wiser ..

You know what spells work agaiinst what mobs, and if land rates were upped, don't you think it would overpower an already good class?

(apparently not or this thread wouldnt exsist)

sorry for the rant .. its 4:20 AM and I am up and headed to the gym .. and maybe a little crabby ...
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:35 am

Teyaha wrote:there are times when the aoe, and it being a 5 star cast for someone with 390hp, are not feasible when fighting things that can kill you on a switch before you have time to flee or even at times before your auto rescue trigger orders the spectre to rescue you.


Have you tried spamming orders to your spectre to rescue you while it's busy and THEN breaking invis to cast wail? I also take it that you can't use ghosts yet to cast your wail for you?

This tactic of spamming rescues is especially effective, because this means their rescue attempt will be delayed, one of the only times you can do this with pets to your advantage, instead of dissadvantage. If you spam it well enough, the spec will rescue you as you are casting (wutever spell) and therefor cannot order it to rescue you from the now switching mob.

I've had my single spectre rescue me up to 3 consecutive times while in the process of casting a single rot spell (a lot longer cast time then wail mind you).

?
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:41 am

Llaaldara wrote:
Teyaha wrote:there are times when the aoe, and it being a 5 star cast for someone with 390hp, are not feasible when fighting things that can kill you on a switch before you have time to flee or even at times before your auto rescue trigger orders the spectre to rescue you.


Have you tried spamming orders to your spectre to rescue you while it's busy and THEN breaking invis to cast wail? I also take it that you can't use ghosts yet to cast your wail for you?

This tactic of spamming rescues is especially effective, because this means their rescue attempt will be delayed, one of the only times you can do this with pets to your advantage, instead of dissadvantage. If you spam it well enough, the spec will rescue you as you are casting (wutever spell) and therefor cannot order it to rescue you from the now switching mob.

I've had my single spectre rescue me up to 3 consecutive times while in the process of casting a single rot spell (a lot longer cast time then wail mind you).

?



yep, and yep.

still doesnt fix the fact it's a 13% land rate, and ~44% with banshee. so there's still no guarantee that the 4 i have memmed will even land after a banshee.

oh and the spamming rescue orders to your spectre doesnt work. they dont get rescue lag after every command because you are not currently tanking anything just like for players. rescue only lags on fails not if you spam it on someone who isnt tanking anything. but you get command lag after every command. just tried 8 fights spamming rescue - not a one until two rounds after switch which means it was his coded random auto rescue.
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Postby lintral » Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:54 pm

Some samples provided, to demonstrate casting time of the spells in question. Land rates are not an element here, as these mobs are all around level... 5.

< P: std > cast 'banshee wail'
You start chanting...
A menacing goblin misses you with its hit. - isn't he a bright one?

< 650h/654H 493p/493P 98v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: few scratches E: goblin EC: excellent P: std >
Casting: banshee wail *** Hit quick chant, 3 star spell
< 650h/654H 493p/493P 98v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: few scratches E: goblin EC: excellent P: std >
Casting: banshee wail **
< 650h/654H 493p/493P 98v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: few scratches E: goblin EC: excellent P: std >
Casting: banshee wail *
< 650h/654H 493p/493P 99v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: few scratches E: goblin EC: excellent P: std >
You complete your spell...
The area reverberates with the shrieks and wails of lost souls!
a menacing goblin recoils in fear from the sudden assault of baleful sound.
Your spell doesn't seem to have any effect on a zombie.
a menacing goblin recoils in fear from the sudden assault of baleful sound.
an ugly kobold recoils in fear from the sudden assault of baleful sound.
an ugly kobold recoils in fear from the sudden assault of baleful sound.
-Should be a bunch of unhappy mobs

< 650h/654H 493p/493P 99v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: few scratches E: goblin EC: excellent P: std > l
You attack a menacing goblin, landing a single hit.
A T-intersection in the Passageway
Exits: -E -S -W
A menacing goblin stands here, fighting YOU!
A zombie stands here groaning and moaning.
A menacing goblin stares around looking lost.
An ugly kobold sulks in the shadows.
An ugly kobold sulks in the shadows.
-Happily oblivious to the fact I just wailed their resistance down

< 651h/654H 493p/493P 100v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: few scratches E: goblin EC: small wounds P: std > cast 'contagion'
You start chanting...
< 652h/654H 493p/493P 102v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: few scratches E: goblin EC: small wounds P: std >
Casting: contagion **** - Damn failed QC bad here, happens
< 652h/654H 493p/493P 102v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: few scratches E: goblin EC: small wounds P: std >
Casting: contagion ***
< 652h/654H 493p/493P 102v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: few scratches E: goblin EC: small wounds P: std >
Casting: contagion **
< 653h/654H 493p/493P 103v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: few scratches E: goblin EC: small wounds P: std >
Casting: contagion
< 653h/654H 493p/493P 103v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: few scratches E: goblin EC: small wounds P: std >
You complete your spell...
You send a noxious wave from your hands that envelops a menacing goblin!
Your contagion wave washes over a menacing goblin, causing it to sag feebly.

<snip to finish fight>

An ugly kobold leaves west. - Still pretty happy for being wailed

< P: std > l
A T-intersection in the Passageway
Exits: -E -S -W
Corpse of a menacing goblin is lying here.
A zombie stands here groaning and moaning.
A menacing goblin stares around looking lost.
An ugly kobold sulks in the shadows.

A Passageway
Exits: -E -W
A zombie stands here groaning and moaning.
An ugly kobold sulks in the shadows.
An ugly kobold sulks in the shadows.
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 109v/110V >
< P: std > cast 'banshee wail'
You start chanting... Trying again in new room
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 109v/110V >
< P: std >
A zombie shambles in from the west. - oops, walkin
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 109v/110V >
< P: std >
Casting: banshee wail ***
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 109v/110V >
< P: std >
Casting: banshee wail **
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< P: std >
Casting: banshee wail *
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< P: std >
You complete your spell...
The area reverberates with the shrieks and wails of lost souls!
Your spell doesn't seem to have any effect on a zombie.
Your spell doesn't seem to have any effect on a zombie.
an ugly kobold recoils in fear from the sudden assault of baleful sound.
an ugly kobold recoils in fear from the sudden assault of baleful sound.
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< P: std > l
A Passageway
Exits: -E -W
A zombie stands here groaning and moaning.
A zombie stands here groaning and moaning.
An ugly kobold sulks in the shadows.
An ugly kobold sulks in the shadows.
-Everybody's all hunky dory

< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< P: std > cast 'contagion' kobold
You start chanting...
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< P: std >
Casting: contagion * - Go QC
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< P: std >
Casting: contagion
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< P: std >
You complete your spell...
You send a noxious wave from your hands that envelops an ugly kobold!
Your contagion wave washes over an ugly kobold, causing him to sag feebly.

< P: std > l
A Passageway
Exits: -E -W
A menacing goblin stares around looking lost.
A zombie stands here groaning and moaning.
A zombie stands here groaning and moaning.
An ugly kobold is lying here, mortally wounded.
An ugly kobold sulks in the shadows.
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< P: std > cast 'ray of enfeeblement' goblin
You start chanting...
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< P: std >
Casting: ray of enfeeblement *
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< P: std >
You complete your spell...
A menacing goblin pales, and seems to sag.
A menacing goblin misses you with its pierce.
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: excellent E: goblin EC: excellent P: std >
You attack a menacing goblin, landing a single hit.
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: excellent E: goblin EC: awful P: std > c 'wither' goblin
You start chanting...
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: excellent E: goblin EC: awful P: std >
Casting: wither *
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: excellent E: goblin EC: awful P: std >
You complete your spell...
You wither a menacing goblin!
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: excellent E: goblin EC: awful P: std >
A menacing goblin is mortally wounded, and will die soon, if not aided.

< P: std > cast 'ray of enfeeblement' zombie
You start chanting...
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< P: std >
Casting: ray of enfeeblement *
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< P: std >
You complete your spell...
A zombie pales, and seems to sag.
A zombie misses you with his beat.
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: excellent E: zombie EC: excellent P: std > c 'wither' zombie
You start chanting...
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: excellent E: zombie EC: excellent P: std >
Casting: wither *
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: excellent E: zombie EC: excellent P: std >
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: excellent E: zombie EC: excellent P: std >
You complete your spell...
You wither a zombie!
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: excellent E: zombie EC: excellent P: std > l
A Passageway
Exits: -E -W
A menacing goblin is lying here, mortally wounded.
A zombie stands here, fighting YOU!
A zombie stands here groaning and moaning.
An ugly kobold is lying here, mortally wounded.
An ugly kobold sulks in the shadows.
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: excellent E: zombie EC: excellent P: std >
You attack a zombie, landing a single hit.
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: excellent E: zombie EC: few wounds P: std > cast 'contagion' 2.zombie
You start chanting...
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: excellent E: zombie EC: few wounds P: std >
Casting: contagion * - QC strikes again!
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: excellent E: zombie EC: few wounds P: std >
Casting: contagion
< 654h/654H 493p/493P 110v/110V >
< T: Lintral TC: excellent E: zombie EC: few wounds P: std >
You complete your spell...
You send a noxious wave from your hands that envelops a zombie!
Your contagion wave washes over a zombie, causing him to sag feebly.


Granted, quick chant is likely to strike more often on ray and wither than on wail and contagion, due to their status as 5th and 4th circles respectively. When QC is failed ray is a 3 * spell, and wither casts very quickly.

Personally, I see no need for revision of contagion. The banshee wail effect has been that way for well, as long as I've been level 46+ or so which has been at least several months, maybe 6-7ish?
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Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:43 pm

13% is a perfectly valid land rate given a power of spell and/or intended use.

Now I don't know that contagion is that powerful of a spell, i personally don't use it because of the low land rate and i was 50 before they added the spell and don't do any heavy soloing. however they added that spell and banshee wail at the same time which may indicate that it was their intention that the two be used in combo. 50% ish success rate still sounds a bit low on the low side to me on mobs < level 50 if you are 50 with maxxed skills (which tey is not).

Also consider the other available spells to increase spell land rate (curse, hex) and although you don't have access to those solo, between the 3 your probaby looking at a 90+% land rate. My guess is that they kept the land rate low to create synergies with other spells and other classes.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Teyaha » Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:19 pm

49.5

my qc fails a lot. banshee wail is a 5 star cast for me better than 70% of the time. i dont know if this is a byproduct of being a snake. the skill hasnt notched for me in a real life year.

as for a powerful spell? not really. it's effect is less than ray and wither together and it's duration is shorter (these are my perceptions would need an imm to verify) and it's land rate is far less. in fact i can get a low level shadow to land ray and wither better than 50% of the time vs. the mobs on the ship, but two wraiths land contagion 10% of the time.

the ONLY thing contagion has over those two spells is the slow comopnent, but seeing as how you xp either with a buttload of ghasts, or two spectres and a shadow as i do this is irrelevent as those pets proc slow a lot.

vamp curse lands a lot more often and arguably i'd consider that spell a LOT more powerful than contagion.
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:45 pm

Kiryan,

Contagion pretty much turns any mob into moosh. Does wonders on boss mobs in particular. I think you're right about the whole using it with wail thing as it's intent, but I believe contagion came out like a year after wail (or longer) so not exactly at the same time. I also couldn't agree more with your notion about contagion working in concert with other caster debuffs. Think you're right on about that. When an Illusionist lands flux, it's pretty high chance to land contagion then.


Tey,

I'm going to say this, and then I'm going to leave this thread alone. I feel contagion is a very powerful spell, because it turns just about any mob into a puddle of easy exp. When I would solo as necro or lich (both as pre-contagion), the difficulty in defeating a mob was getting your debuffs to land quick enough before your tank pet(s) ate it. You had to split your time between tank maintenance and debuffing. Sometimes ordering those pets to heal your tank instead of ray/withering, etc. Sure, Ray and Wither are easier to land (and should be), both in percentage chance, and in that even shadows can cast these two spells (which means you basically always have the option for a pet to cast them for you within all the various pet combinations). But because they were seperate spells, it still took a certain amount of time to land them. This time in getting the debuffs to land while you maintain your tank, is the hard part of defeating a mob, no? For once you debuff it, it's sit back and relax time.

I do not believe contagion needs as big as a percentage chance to land as your are indicating, because it's just one spell, instead of 3. If any necro/lich can just land this so quickly and easily towards the begining of any confrontation, it removes that difficulty factor that comes with the class. Remember, this is why they dn't need blind either?

Contagion CAN land easily enough in a zone situation on the right debuff'd/prep'd mobs when used in concert with other classes. IMHO, because it's 3 spells in one, it should have such a low percentage chance to land compared to the 3 spells it incorporates.

So let me clarify. Yes it's frustrating that it can take forever to land, but therein lies the challenge, getting it to land while you fight for your life, or your tanks life. 13% chance to land normally is pretty low, but I could never see it being raised above 20% in all honesty. There are enough ways with other classes and even the wail factor to increase this. When solo'n, I don't really see wut the big deal is with breaking invis to cast Contagion or Banshee Wail since ghosts can cast both.

*shrug*
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Postby Nekelet » Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:31 am

Going to have to agree generally with Llaldara / et al.
If the non-wail hitrate were raised much, the challenging part of soloing fights would be drastically reduced.
IMO contagion is very powerful - I consider it a treat when I can land it in a big fight (means my timing is on :D)

Between pets doing contagion, and myself wailing, I can generally count on Contagion hitting before I lose a tank while doing routine stuff. Ghast mode - might lose one. I *may* occasionally have to toss a contagion myself, but generally the pets manage to hit it within a few orders.

Now re: the hiding invis thing - I generally find that anything worth doing is DI & infra, so standing back unlit/invis is frequently not even an option.
Abort and walk-out is your friend...

It's all about the timing. Part of the "art" is knowing when to cast what, and when to stand back and pay attention to orders. Now if only I could turn it into a science. :P
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Postby kiryan » Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:43 am

sorry i didnt mean to try and say contagion is a powerful spell. it may or may not be, i havent used it enough to comment.

i was saying that 13% could be an appropriate and acceptable success % given a certain power of spell. you had earlier said that there was no reason to justify a 13% success rate on any spell.

I think contagion is probably a decently powered spell. if it had a 50% native land rate id say its bread and butter. I had noticed that it doesnt land that often and that has prevented me from really getting excited about using it. personally i just stay invis when i exp, not really worried about efficiency when there is !risk.
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Postby Teyaha » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:24 am

the problem i see with the arguments about how powerful contagion may be is the fact that vampiric curse is far more powerful and has a higher land rate. 40% no wail.

if contagion doesnt land and vampiric curse lands the fight is over. if vampiri curse dont land but contagion does the fight is actually a little tougher but doable.

in the time it takes to land a contagion, with banshee wail, i can land ray and wither nearly without fail for the same result but longer duration.

for example i oftentimes find myself the first person on the ship, so the key mobs are all armed. this means they hit like a truck. i dont bother with contagion seeing as i dont have time to waste on a 13% spell. so i hit banshee, ray, wither, vamp curse and switch spectres off if the mob gets a few lucky crits in. the slow part of contagion is useless to me as my two spectres keep a mob slowed over 90% of the time. and if i'm low on hp i can make the shadow cast AND land ray and wither without wail, whereas i cant land contagion with wail at times.

with wail vamp curse lands around 70%.


i just dont see a point to contagion when xp'ng, not when a 3rd and 4th circle spell lands more often and for a greater effect and longer duration.


let me repeat that last part - a 3rd and 4th circle spell land more often, for greater effect, and longer duration, than an 8th circle spell WITH or WITHOUT wail.


if contagion was upped to 20% that would be enough, however we all know ungodly streaky tohit code is in this game. it puts a lot of other games to shame in this respect. it can be a 50% landrate spell but you will fail 8 times out of 10 regularly, then hit 5 in a row.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:44 pm

maybe the spell isn't intended for exp and is intended to be used mostly in zone against high level mobs that have already been debuffed by curse, hex, wail and what not.

hard to say. I do hate how it seems duration always gets the shaft on any kind of combo or time saving spell.
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Postby Nekelet » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:48 pm

Can't comment whatsoever about vcurse vs contagion, as it was virtually useless back when I was able to cast it. ~10% vs lowbie critters by TP/tent. Hitrate was upgraded substantially after I liched. (Wish I had a chance to play with it after the tweak)

I still stand by my opinion of contagions power, however your remaining comments are persuasive. I may just have to do some additional experimentation w/ ray & wit.. :D

If consistently true, perhaps contagion hitrate might need a tweak. Or perhaps I simply need to adjust strategy&memlist. :)
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Postby Pril » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:53 pm

Here's an interesting question, which skill is the hitrate based on (if any). I've noticed a lot of times people complain about failure to do stuff when their skills are unpracticed. Maybe people's spellcast necro or whatever isn't high enough? Not pointing fingers cuz i don't know peoples skills but shrug.

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Postby Botef » Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:21 pm

Something interesting to toss into the mix. Ive noticed while watching my pets that my wraiths land contagion on ship mobs at a higher rate than your reporting personally teyaha. No idea why, just an interesting note.
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:36 am

botef, as you know hitrates in this game are streaky. if you are on the ship for an hour there's a good chance you'll either have less than or far more than 13% hit rate.

however after 3 hours i alwasy end up with the same number.
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:40 am

Nekelet wrote:Can't comment whatsoever about vcurse vs contagion, as it was virtually useless back when I was able to cast it. ~10% vs lowbie critters by TP/tent. Hitrate was upgraded substantially after I liched. (Wish I had a chance to play with it after the tweak)

I still stand by my opinion of contagions power, however your remaining comments are persuasive. I may just have to do some additional experimentation w/ ray & wit.. :D

If consistently true, perhaps contagion hitrate might need a tweak. Or perhaps I simply need to adjust strategy&memlist. :)


a year and a half or so ago i did this same testing with vcurse afer i got it, because the land rate was 10%. after posting numbers like this it got changed. this was also the same time taht the land rate of soul bind got changed. i used to harass...god i cant remember his name was an imm who changed how soul bind worked and the pres'ng with it etc...about these things a lot. i think this was before soj3 closed.


i'm hoping the same thing happens with contagion. it dont have to be 50%, but it needs to be better than 13% otherwise there's no need to mem anything but blackmantle in 8th which you only need in zones.
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Postby rer » Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:27 pm

13% is completely acceptable. Learn to get around it through Wail, or just don't use it.

For a spell that powerful, there's no WAY it should be able to land 50%, or even 25%, of the time.

It's more difficult to cast, therefore, it's more difficult to land. Period.
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:14 pm

um rer, did you read the thread?

it's not powerful, just convenient. it's effect is less and it's duration shorter than ray and wither - which each land over 44% of the time without wail.

if it wont land it's no longer convenient, and several necros and liches here have admitted to not bothering with it.
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:18 pm

Ambar wrote:pet rescue trrigs lag just too much anyway ... do it manually ...

Hate seeing pet owners in general bitch about stuff that can kill them on switch ... mages are supposed to be frail in body and strong in mind ... the strengths in mind need an offset, a risk, a challenge, compared to the power they wield with their mind

I know you want the class to be more effective (or so it seems to you) .. but consider how much you can solo and chose your battles wiser ..

You know what spells work agaiinst what mobs, and if land rates were upped, don't you think it would overpower an already good class?

(apparently not or this thread wouldnt exsist)

sorry for the rant .. its 4:20 AM and I am up and headed to the gym .. and maybe a little crabby ...


out of context response.

i dont want all land rates increased, just this one spell. necros have only two spells to mem in 8th circle - blackmantle and contagion. until contagion came around it was a useless circle outside of select zone instances.

i've already proven that ray and wither land more and last longer than contagion. why is that? contagion doesnt do any more. yes it has a slow component but at the level you get it slow is not an issue - ghasts and spectrs all proc slow reliably.

i bet you i run this character with far more hardships than the rest of you as i have 390 hp and am a snake and at no time have i complained it's too hard, anywhere. my issue is, and i'll bottom line it yet again:

an 8th circle spell with less duration and effect than a 3rd and 4th circle spell lands 13% on level 41 mobs whereas those same 3rd and 4th circle spells land over 44% on the same mobs. explain it logically if you can.
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Postby Vahok » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:40 pm

Correct me if I am wrong (I really don't know, never played necro) but isn't contagion three spells rolled into one? (ray, wither and slowness)
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Postby rer » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:59 pm

Yes, Vahok, that's correct. It's 3 spells rolled into one that turn mobs, as Llaldara put it, into Mush.

Apparently Tey hasn't been reading the thread herself. Kiryan agrees that 13% is acceptable, and Llaldara, who plays her Necro very well, thinks that it's a very powerful spell, so I'm not alone in my opinions.

If I remember the stats right, Prism lands 11% of the time, but I haven't heard any chanters complain about that...

There are plenty of spells whose effects don't land much more than 10% of the time, if that much. Proficiency of casting is a big factor. For a spell that you don't get until level 36, you only get 14 levels of experience "practice" at that spell, whereas a spell that you get at level 16, you get 34 levels of "practice". Your mastery grows significantly, so you can cast it with ease.

The benefit of a spell like Contagion is that you can cast 1 spell and get the effects of 3 at once.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:29 am

Teyaha wrote:i bet you i run this character with far more hardships than the rest of you as i have 390 hp and am a snake


Tey ... you whine about any char ya play :P

first it was enchanter and your carpal tunnel .. now this

yeah im sure you have it worse than any of us at anything you do .. why?

you MAKE it worse

listen to the more experienced players for a change (the players who have liches/necros who dont see a problem witha smallish land rate on this HUGELY powerful spell)



Rer: Tey is a guy :P
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:42 am

rer wrote:Yes, Vahok, that's correct. It's 3 spells rolled into one that turn mobs, as Llaldara put it, into Mush.

Apparently Tey hasn't been reading the thread herself. Kiryan agrees that 13% is acceptable, and Llaldara, who plays her Necro very well, thinks that it's a very powerful spell, so I'm not alone in my opinions.

If I remember the stats right, Prism lands 11% of the time, but I haven't heard any chanters complain about that...

There are plenty of spells whose effects don't land much more than 10% of the time, if that much. Proficiency of casting is a big factor. For a spell that you don't get until level 36, you only get 14 levels of experience "practice" at that spell, whereas a spell that you get at level 16, you get 34 levels of "practice". Your mastery grows significantly, so you can cast it with ease.

The benefit of a spell like Contagion is that you can cast 1 spell and get the effects of 3 at once.


i dont kjonw why you're being argumentative ambar. facts are facts. at no time did i say i was having it hard and it looks like you're trying to draw me into a pointless argument. i can xp just fine and do so for 3 hours at a stretch before the mind numbing boredom of it makes me log. my only issue is the fact that AN 8TH CIRCLE SPELL DOES NOT LAND AS OFTEN AS A 3RD AND 4TH CIRCLE SPELL, BANSHEE WAIL INCLUDED. i put that in bold since the other 4 times i've said this has gone over the heads of most.

rer - kiryan said he doesnt use the spell because it hardly lands. read whole posts plz. lemme help ya on that.

kiryan wrote:
Now I don't know that contagion is that powerful of a spell, i personally don't use it because of the low land rate and i was 50 before they added the spell and don't do any heavy soloing. .


i exclusively solo being as that's my only option. i'm well aware of the fact it's my fault no one will group with me so i'm not complaining about being forced to solo. it's why i have the necro.

yes, contagion is three spells in one. as i've said three times in this very thread now the slow part is irrelevent to a necro. spectres and ghasts will proc slow every fight.

once again, bottom line, this spell is simplynot needed and rarely used because of it's land rate as has been mentioned by more than just me in this very thread. is my life harder because it wont land? hardly. vampric curse is the turning point in all of my fights, is substantially more powerful than contagion an dlands 44% of the time WITHOUT banshee wail.

i can take an armed captain miplit with one spectre and two wraiths without contagion because of vampiric curse.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:13 am

Teyaha wrote:i exclusively solo being as that's my only option. i'm well aware of the fact it's my fault no one will group with me so i'm not complaining about being forced to solo. it's why i have the necro.

(snip)

once again, bottom line, this spell is simplynot needed and rarely used because of it's land rate as has been mentioned by more than just me in this very thread. is my life harder because it wont land? hardly. vampric curse is the turning point in all of my fights, is substantially more powerful than contagion an dlands 44% of the time WITHOUT banshee wail.

i can take an armed captain miplit with one spectre and two wraiths without contagion because of vampiric curse.


Then why worry about it? Let other people who think contagion is awesome use it, and just use vamp curse.
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:22 am

yeah very true mori. i guess i was kinda hoping to get the kind of feedback on this as i got when i pushed to get vamp curse landrate increased.

it would be awfully convenient if it did land more often. ah well.
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Postby Botef » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:05 pm

Could at least be looked into. I failed a good 24 contagions in a row the other day on the galley cook, lost 2 ghasts in the process while trying to land it. At lvl 50, failing 24 contagions in a row on a mob thats lower level than me is just well, embarassing. Debuff's aside, you cant expect me to believe a lvl 50 mage is going to fail a high level spell like this 24 times in a row on a mob like that.
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:48 pm

Teyaha wrote:yeah very true mori. i guess i was kinda hoping to get the kind of feedback on this as i got when i pushed to get vamp curse landrate increased.

it would be awfully convenient if it did land more often. ah well.



Tey, if you'd like to read up on how Vampiric Curse came to be improved, I suggest you read the following thread that made this happen:
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14931


Also, there appears to be a very important fact you are neglecting to address: If you up contagion, it affects 2 classes, not one. Therefor the question you're not asking yourself is, do lich's really need an upgrade to any of their current spells?

I see you admit that contagion is 3 spells in one, but are you able to consider that perhaps the landrate is so low, because maybe the mob has to fail all 3 saves in order for it to land? I don't know how the spell is coded, but that would make sense. Woudn't it? Notice that you never land contagion with only 1 or 2 of the effects happening. It's all or nothing. I'm pretty sure if the invoker spells that have side effects, had a 100% chance to land the side effect everytime they were cast, they'd be KILLED in their landrate percentages.

Furthermore, going back and quoting something ambar said after the conversation had long since moved on 1) is bad form, 2) just makes you appear to be obsessing over the subject matter, and 3) totally makes you appear to be the one picking a fight with someone in hopes of wining some semblance of an argument on the topic (since you can use the "well you don't play this class" card in your argument disprove anything she says - unlike those here who do play it and don't agree with your points, and instead see and understand just how powerful this spell is).

PLEASE, stop comparing vampiric curse and contagion. Serioiusly. When vampiric curse (or any other spell for that matter) becomes 3 (or more) spells in one (that ALL LAND when the spell lands - jesus think of prismatic spray), then yes, I'll agree that contagion needs to be upped and increased in effectiveness. Until then, I just can't see it.

Your "pets can slow" argument is mute, because you don't use those pets when zoning 99.9% of the time. I've tried it repeatedly, and it's met disappointing results everytime. Any zoning Necro/lich knows, you use ghosts or wraiths. Not 1 area nuked ghasts or no-damage doing spectres. I don't know of any leaders that say "Quick memo, llaal raise specs/ghasts". And as I pointed out, contagion lands helluva lot easier in zoning situations when combined with other class debuffs, as compared to already easy solo necro/lich exp'n.

In summary:
-The spell is effective in zoning situations (as I use it a ton in these situations, usually my first spell in every major encounter - me and my pets - I kid you not. If I know pet has low saves, it's contag off the bat. If it has high ones or is a caster, it's wail while pets contag).
-Necro/Lich exp with pets is already easy, it doesn't need to be made even easier by upping the landrate of this spell.

EDIT Meant prismatic spray not prism.
Last edited by Llaaldara on Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:49 pm

thank you botef!

i think some of the posters here forgot that the numbers i put in the first thread were from killing war leaders in dk - these are level 41 lower level than the cook on the ship.

i have been wondering however if this is because a) the land rate is truly 13%, or b) the fact that the to-hit code of this game is so extremely streaky it makes a 25% landrate spell give the the perception of 13%
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:05 pm

Llaaldara wrote:
Teyaha wrote:yeah very true mori. i guess i was kinda hoping to get the kind of feedback on this as i got when i pushed to get vamp curse landrate increased.

it would be awfully convenient if it did land more often. ah well.



Tey, if you'd like to read up on how Vampiric Curse came to be improved, I suggest you read the following thread that made this happen:
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14931


Also, there appears to be a very important fact you are neglecting to address: If you up contagion, it affects 2 classes, not one. Therefor the question you're not asking yourself is, do lich's really need an upgrade to any of their current spells?.


i'm not a lich, and like a few others dont ever plan on being a lich.

I see you admit that contagion is 3 spells in one, but are you able to consider that perhaps the landrate is so low, because maybe the mob has to fail all 3 saves in order for it to land? I don't know how the spell is coded, but that would make sense. Woudn't it? Notice that you never land contagion with only 1 or 2 of the effects happening. It's all or nothing. I'm pretty sure if the invoker spells that have side effects, had a 100% chance to land the side effect everytime they were cast, they'd be KILLED in their landrate percentages.


there are other spells in the game that do more than one thing. if this logic had any merit than we'd be seeing a 0 effect from prismatic spray because of all of those independent save rolls. i highly doubt this is the case.

Furthermore, going back and quoting something ambar said after the conversation had long since moved on 1) is bad form, 2) just makes you appear to be obsessing over the subject matter, and 3) totally makes you appear to be the one picking a fight with someone in hopes of wining some semblance of an argument on the topic (since you can use the "well you don't play this class" card in your argument disprove anything she says - unlike those here who do play it and don't agree with your points, and instead see and understand just how powerful this spell is).


i have nothing against ambar. that post i quoted i had missed. i dont nkow if it was edited after the fact but i had not seen it before. i have nothing against her or anyone here but you do know that anything i ever say is dissected and attacked by a few people who visit these forms. i'm still waiting for dalar to say something snide that has nothing to do with the original thread, like ambar's off-color comments about my debilitating condition. and i never use the 'well you dont play that class' card because for people that have been around as long as us it's irrelevent.

PLEASE, stop comparing vampiric curse and contagion. Serioiusly. When vampiric curse (or any other spell for that matter) becomes 3 (or more) spells in one (that ALL LAND when the spell lands - jesus think of prism), then yes, I'll agree that contagion needs to be upped and increased in effectiveness. Until then, I just can't see it.


i'm afraid i must. youve never had vampric curse. ihave both prism and vampiric curse. i dont think prism's land rate needs to be increased, but now botef has posted a 24 string of resists on a level 45 mob. the benefit of vampiric curse far outweighs contagion for the simple fact i can get the same effect for a longer duration of contagion with two spells that my freakin shadow can land every fight on level 51+ mobs without banshee wail.

Your "pets can slow" argument is mute, because you don't use those pets when zoning 99.9% of the time. I've tried it repeatedly, and it's met disappointing results everytime. Any zoning Necro/lich knows, you use ghosts or wraiths. Not 1 area nuked ghasts or no-damage doing spectres. I don't know of any leaders that say "Quick memo, llaal raise specs/ghasts". And as I pointed out, contagion lands helluva lot easier in zoning situations when combined with other class debuffs, as compared to already easy solo necro/lich exp'n.


moot (not mute) to you as you zone, i do not. i have no issues with not zoning, however the numbers i posted in the first thread are a level 49.5 casting against level 41 mobs for three hours. i realize many people never ever want to see changes to this game because they fear it will effect balance (as if the abundance of uber eq has no effect on this?) but a small increase i contagion is not game breaking as you and only two other contributers to this thread make it out to be.

i appreciate kiryan being open minded without taking a side either way.

In summary:
-The spell is effective in zoning situations (as I use it a ton in these situations, usually my first spell in every major encounter - me and my pets - I kid you not. If I know pet has low saves, it's contag off the bat. If it has high ones or is a caster, it's wail while pets contag).
-Necro/Lich exp with pets is already easy, it doesn't need to be made even easier by upping the landrate of this spell.


yes xp is easy. my entire argument about contagions land rate was never at any point (and nor can you find a quote anywhere from me saying or infering this) had to do with the ease of xp or lack thereof. if the switches bother me or i'm low on hp i just stay invis. the ONLY spell i have to cast is vampric curse and only IF the ship mobs are armed. i make my pets haste/protect the spectre. hell i dont even use ray and wither.

i made this post because the first night i came back two weeks ago i cast contagion 38 times in a row on the same reaver before it landed. i asked around the visible necros (not liches) if this was normal and they said yeah, the spell was pretty much useless.

so i set up my old triggers that i were used to track hits/crits for my rogue and tracked contagions vs. -8 mobs. boy was i surprised, and you should be too.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:43 pm

Botef wrote:Could at least be looked into. I failed a good 24 contagions in a row the other day on the galley cook, lost 2 ghasts in the process while trying to land it. At lvl 50, failing 24 contagions in a row on a mob thats lower level than me is just well, embarassing. Debuff's aside, you cant expect me to believe a lvl 50 mage is going to fail a high level spell like this 24 times in a row on a mob like that.


Not derailing from the thread, but some mobs are completely GAY. Try feeb'g the cyclops magi in DS. After 126 failed feebs, I petitioned. A minute later, I get the response, 'It is working as intended.' Now WHY the hell would a group fight a !bash, virtually !feeb caster mob that areas? At any rate, there are a handful of mobs that don't 'play by the rules' on saves, by any means!
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:46 pm

def not a derailing, but then you have to wonder at area god and coder logic.

all the mobs i'mfighting are warrior mobs. does this mean i should be casting contagoin on caster mobs and feeble on warrior mobs because their resistances to spells that actually effect them are tuned up to a very high level?

wonder if we'll get an imm response on this thread.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:51 pm

Just for my 2 beans on contagion: I don't use the spell as a pivotal means to beat a mob solo'g. I just toss it out there AFTER withering, cuz wither lands a lot more and I don't like ordering rescue cuz of lag and MY own IP lag etc. It'd be nice if contagion landed a tad more often, but think about this - Contagioned mob, even when solo'g, is DEAD. It's a very powerful spell so I'm content just withering and then hoping to land contagion. Regardless, I agree with you that contagion doesn't land worth a snot. I also totally agree with llaaldara that the debuff spells in zoning make ANY spell land :P But nobody seems to eagerly group with a necro, cuz pets can be bullheaded on fleeing when they shieldpunch and stuff. I have several cuts where I order them to flee, but they're in bash lag or whatnot. The pet stands, then shieldpunches or for caster pets, they don't retreat, they cast stupid spells like globe.
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:14 pm

since youalready withered, drop a ray and you get the same effect as contagion when xp'ng.

pivotal in tough xp fights for me is vamp curse. if vamp curse is up my spectre is nearly unkillable and ends the fight with 2-300 extra hp from vamp touches, unhasted.
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Postby rer » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:14 pm

I think I mentioned earlier that Prism has an 11% hitrate, Tey...
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:39 pm

yeah i know you did, and i think that's fine. enchanters hve so many tools that work in that same circle.

necros are all about debuffing however, and have nothing but blackmantle to mem in 8th. so having a useless spell is far more hurtful.

unless you're talking about my response to llaaldara. prismatic spray is not prism

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