Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
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Postby rer » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:58 pm

Hrm, misread your response to Llaldara. My bad Tey.
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:05 pm

Teyaha wrote:i'm not a lich, and like a few others dont ever plan on being a lich.

So you want to completely disregard balance by not addressing or considering the repercussions of an upgrade to a spell, which affects multiple classes? Well you got me there, not sure how anyone can debate a point with you if you choose to not want to even address the result it will have on other areas outside your specific class. *shrug*

Teyaha wrote:i'm afraid i must. youve never had vampric curse. ihave both prism and vampiric curse. i dont think prism's land rate needs to be increased, but now botef has posted a 24 string of resists on a level 45 mob. the benefit of vampiric curse far outweighs contagion for the simple fact i can get the same effect for a longer duration of contagion with two spells that my freakin shadow can land every fight on level 51+ mobs without banshee wail.

So you won’t use the “You’ve never played this class” card, but you won’t hesitate to use the “You’ve never had this spell” card eh? Come on now. Btw, I meant prismatic spray in my previous post, I’ve since gone back and changed it. I apologize for the wrong reference. Just because I haven’t had the spell personally, doesn’t mean I haven’t extensively sat next to someone who did, and tested it with them even more extensively (both before and after its fix/change/tweak) to know a thing or two about it (in the case of Vampiric Curse).

Teyaha wrote:moot (not mute) to you as you zone, i do not. i have no issues with not zoning, however the numbers i posted in the first thread are a level 49.5 casting against level 41 mobs for three hours. i realize many people never ever want to see changes to this game because they fear it will effect balance (as if the abundance of uber eq has no effect on this?) but a small increase i contagion is not game breaking as you and only two other contributers to this thread make it out to be.

Thanks for the correction. Now, I notice you’ve pointed out class level, but have neglected to mention current skill levels. May I ask you if your specialize necromancy and spellcast necromancy are maxed for your level, and what those current caps are, since contagion is listed as a necromancy spell? Call it curiosity.

Teyaha wrote:yes xp is easy. my entire argument about contagions land rate was never at any point (and nor can you find a quote anywhere from me saying or infering this) had to do with the ease of xp or lack thereof. if the switches bother me or i'm low on hp i just stay invis. the ONLY spell i have to cast is vampric curse and only IF the ship mobs are armed. i make my pets haste/protect the spectre. hell i dont even use ray and wither.

It sounds like you want this to be an exp spell (since all your posted data is based on doing exp mobs, instead of data collected while zoning or with in conjunction with other class abilities besides your own), while I’m arguing how it’s intended for zoning. Which would explain the difference in landing rates I guess.

Teyaha wrote:i made this post because the first night i came back two weeks ago i cast contagion 38 times in a row on the same reaver before it landed. i asked around the visible necros (not liches) if this was normal and they said yeah, the spell was pretty much useless.

That is surprising. I can mem up to 7 contagions at once, and I can only remember ever using them all up and not having contag land by then twice. I’ve never had the problem of it not landing within the next 7 casts. But yes, that’s just me. And it surely doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen. I can only wonder why it hasn’t? That does sound absurd to fail that many times. I can agree with you on that.

Teyaha wrote:so i set up my old triggers that i were used to track hits/crits for my rogue and tracked contagions vs. -8 mobs. boy was i surprised, and you should be too.

Yes. It is surprising that you fail so often. No. I don’t understand why you do fail so often, when I do not (even in exp situations). You’ve pointed out time and again how poor this spell lands when doing exp. My points have equally pointed out time and again how well it lands in a zoning environment. You’ve also pointed out how well other spells/abilities out land this spell in an exp environment. I’ve also pointed out how these don’t apply in a zoning environment.

I dunno, but maybe, the spell is designed as a zoning spell and is working as intended?

This isn't intended to be a de-railing, but something else you addressed in passing, that I’d like the Staff’s attention specifically on:
The lack of worthy spells to memorize in 8th circle for a Necromancer. You are so right on the money about that. I pointed this problem out to Itchy the day Abi Dalzims Horrid Wilting was changed and moved to a higher circle spell. In my opinion, the Necromancer class took a huge hit when this happened, and it was done to reduce the power output of Necromancers and Lichs. I still feel, Abi should have been made single target, but never moved up a circle. It should have stayed at 8th circle, but made !undead cast-able. So it would be an offensive weapon reserved for necro’s, and therefore not available to lichs themselves, or via their pets. Unfortunately, this creates a void in 9th circle offensive for Necromancers and their pets, and 8th circle for pets, which in turn results in reduction of pet damage to the lich and necromancer classes. Perhaps Boneshatter should be moved to 9th circle to compensate? This way, a ghost could effectively cast more then 2-3 of this spell before needing to re-coop. But I wager this type of movement ultimately depends on the difference between how much damage the two spells do in comparison.
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:38 pm

I was curious so I went pirate ship hunting last night for 3 hours. Contagion landed very infrequently. Despite always wailing first, I'll just leave it at that. The spell just doesn't really land. Wither definitely hits more often. I would NOT have a problem with just removing the spell and making it a QUEST spell instead (again, this is just me) if it means it landing more. Again, llaaldara pointed out it lands a lot better in zones w/curse/flux, etc. I don't see it as a big deal, really. It is truly frustrating tho! :P

Abi's is just a waste of time spell to me. It's slower casting and does less damage than the 7th circle. There are some undead mobs like chaos that are damned near immune to a necro. I agree there's a void in the necro line up, and the pets can't really do anything to a chaos either (again as necro) I was even thinking of a necro (not pets) having a spell like 'life rot' or 'mind rot' that necro uses some of his life to rot a mob's noodle or abilities/health. It would be similar to poison damage and lessen mob's skills. So it wouldn't make quick chant etc, as well. Have the spell do the damage of 'harm' on the necro but cause all kinds of chaos for the mob. Just an idea. Absolutely with llaaldara that there's "something" missing. Lich should not get this life spell I just proposed due to lich draining. Maybe even add a possible 'stun' to the liferot/drain whatever. Hrm, just call it 'Braindrain' !!
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:00 pm

Thilindel wrote:It is truly frustrating tho! :P

Yeah, but also remember, you can have this casted up to 4 times at once with 3 wraiths (normal for me) and yourself casting it. I'm wondering if he's been taking that into consideration as well. If you can cast a spell 4 times at once, shouldn't it logically have 1/4th the land percentage of another debuff spell of the same circle? And if the spell does 3 spell effects at once, shouldn't it then be 1/3rd of 1/4th the land percentage rate of another spell it's same circle?

Tey might like comparing it to VC, but I just don't see how you can, when pets can't cast VC.
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Re: contagion

Postby Llaaldara » Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:08 pm

Teyaha wrote:Contagions Cast: 100 Contagions Hit: 11
Vamp Curse Cast: 12 Vamp Curse Hit: 10

Let's take his raw data.

According to the above:
Contagion land rate was approx: 11%
Vampiric Curse land rate was approx: 83%

1/4th of 83% is approx: 20.75%
1/3rd of 20.75% is approx: 6.92% (7%)

Looks like Contagion is landing +4% better then I woulda given it credit for.
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Postby lintral » Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:38 pm

Well I went zoning in Seelie last night with my necro, and I paid somewhat close attention to my castings of contagion. These were fights that were often with multiple mobs, and I used banshee wail extensively before attempting contagion. The zone trip was 2.5 hours, against mobs that are all greater level than I.

I cast 92 contagions. 60 of them were successful. That's a 65.2% success rate. These high level mobs that can hit incredibly hard wound up with one attack, rayed and also easier to hit 65% of the time because of my spell. I likely could have caused even more to land had I also used my pets to cast on the ones I wasn't targetting.

Success rates may go through streaks on this mud, but it would take a hell of a streak of failures to drop the success rate of my contagions down to a level where it would need an upgrade in my opinion.
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:27 pm

not gonna argue with you llaaldara. you're obsessed with liches and zoning and that's your business. i have no interest in liching, neither does botef from our conversations, and i'm sure several others. therefore we get 5 contagoins not 7. and yes my testing included using a spectre and two wraiths, i said that in the very first post.

did you look at my three hour numbers? i'll post them again for ya in case you just skipped from the first post to your own responses:

Kills: 58
Contagions Cast: 230 Contagions Hit: 30
Vamp Curse Cast: 56 Vamp Curse Hit: 25

however from what i'm seeing you guys are saying that mobs in zones have lower resists to this than those on the ship?

we need an imm response to this, because now three diffrent people have posted having issues having this spell land on ship mobs even the low level ones but two people have posted better than 60% in a zone with wail, whereas i get less than 44% with wail doing xp.

bottom line for llaaldara - i dont mem or use the spell anymore. it takes less time to land wither and ray than trying to land contagion. pretty gay to have an 8th circle spell that's nearly useless to folks doing xp. xp is just as important as zoning except for those of you who like to plevel your alts.

as for my necromancy skills? they havent notched in a year and are capped for my level. both say master but i forget the number. i have no problem with any other necromantic spell: wither, ray, vampiric curse, boneshatter, hell even the wither from abi's hits more often than contagion.

also keep in mind my 3 hour test is on war leaders in dk, not ship. the 100 uses test was on ship. 13% on level 41 mobs. i realize some folks think they're gods gift to liches (i really miss todrael now) but if upping this spell means liches land it more who the fuck cares? liches are the most powerful class in the game and can heal yourselves if a fight goes bad, why would upping the non-wail land rate of contagion - which once again is no fucking better than ray and wither and pet slow - 7% going to destroy the game? probably because you didn't think of it first?

anyway that's my last response to llaaldara, and i appreciate how others in this thread have been open minded about this and have recognized a problem or at least tested it for themselves in zoning and non zoning situations alike instead of just arguing against all changes :) especially since a 7% increase in the landrate of a combo spell with less duration than it's individual components is not game breaking.

edit: my skills- spellcast necromancy - master 96, specialize necromancy - very good 86
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Postby Eilistraee » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:16 am

I've kept up on this thread, and in general have wanted to leave it to be sorted out amongst yourselves. I'll post answers to a couple of questions though.

Contagion was a spell I conceived of that attempted to fill an expected niche for a zoning class. Rolling three very effective debuff spells into one is a great spell for a zoning fight. Yes, the spell is intended to be of greatest interest in a zone where several conditions apply.
1) More than one opponent. Casting a single spell to apply three effects is a great time saver in a fight with multiple enemies.
2) Short, 'flash' fights. The duration on the spell doesn't need to be longer, as zoning fights are typically over with in a short period of time.
3) Assistant debuff spells. The success of this spell does ride in part upon lowering the enemy's resistance, through the use of banshee wail, curse and hex most notably.
4) Lower pet availability. I have heard plenty of times about how pets will often die in a zone. This reduces your options for multiple spellcastings in a fight, so rolling multiple effects into one is preferable.

Teyaha raises good points as to reasons not to employ the spell in an experience situation. Typically single mob fights, often lasting awhile with a lack of debuffing. It all runs counter to the group-driven environment that contagion is built to thrive in.

I can't speak for why specific mobs have enjoyed greater success than others in saving against the spell, however the reports within this thread of the disparity between experience and zoning leads me to believe that the spell is indeed behaving as intended.
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:05 am

thank you for the information. that puts it into perspective a great deal and with that reasoning behind the creation of the spell i can find no fault...

at the same time could those of you who are necros (not liches plz) keep track of your land rate in zones too? :)

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