Rangers lack of skills

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Pril
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Rangers lack of skills

Postby Pril » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:52 am

Ok not quite sure but there's atleast 2 skills that rangers don't have that i'm not sure why...

Hitall and disarm. any gods or what not know?

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Postby Thilindel » Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:08 am

Wasn't there a thread a few months back about rangers where some god said they were going to redo the class? It's literally been years now and rangers just aren't desired in a group. In the least, they could have rangers, while in nature, hide/backstab/sneak. If I remember right, rangers are like thieves, but -1 to modifier. Rangers wanna be rich pimps too! Throw some bling their way!!
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Postby Turgil » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:10 am

Along the lines of rangers, giving them trip instead of bash would make more sense. The skill 'trap' never really got implemented...... so how about giving us some kind of active combat range skill? Im not sure what would be balanced but something would be nice. Anyhow my 2 cents.

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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:23 am

Thilindel wrote:Wasn't there a thread a few months back about rangers where some god said they were going to redo the class? It's literally been years now and rangers just aren't desired in a group. In the least, they could have rangers, while in nature, hide/backstab/sneak. If I remember right, rangers are like thieves, but -1 to modifier. Rangers wanna be rich pimps too! Throw some bling their way!!



There have been numerous threads. It'll get done supposedly someday but im not holding my breath.
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Postby Vikaz » Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:16 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:It'll get done supposedly someday but im not holding my breath.

No really, hold it.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:33 pm

just fix arrow loss to start with
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Postby Burmadapig » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:23 pm

If I remember correctly, Homeland Rangers and Bladesingers weren't as unuseful as Rangers are here. Anyone care to comment either way? Never played one (closest thing I played was Shadowstalker).
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Postby Pril » Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:36 pm

Kiryan, and others... this thread wasn't meant to "fix" stuff that takes time and complaining about it is useless at this point the gods have heard us. But the way i see it, giving a skill that's well suited for a class and already exists, TO a class that already axists should take all of 5 minutes if that...

So is there any reason ya can think of that rangers DON'T have disarm and hitall?

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Postby Vhaeraun » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:09 pm

Burmadapig wrote:If I remember correctly, Homeland Rangers and Bladesingers weren't as unuseful as Rangers are here. Anyone care to comment either way? Never played one (closest thing I played was Shadowstalker).


Rangers had perfect dual there. Weapons had the old-school dice. (like 4d5 4/5 for a 1hander). And they could haste themselves.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:17 pm

I aggree with V, however, it should be noted that in the age of gleaming mithri axes, melee was the only source of damage. Implementing big damage dice weapons is not going to help rangers imo.

as far as disarm and hitall, shrug, id rather not then so (why add another skill that doesn't add anything to the class), but who cares? Its not like it can't be yanked when/if rangers ever get a redesign.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Burmadapig » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:14 pm

Why waste time revamping Toril rangers when HL rangers didn't suck? Bring them over, make the class work, and voila rangers don't suck. Well, except for the last one..guess 2 out of 3 not bad. Rangers will always suck!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:57 pm

Don't make me shillelagh this thread.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:37 am

Burmadapig wrote:Why waste time revamping Toril rangers when HL rangers didn't suck? Bring them over, make the class work, and voila rangers don't suck. Well, except for the last one..guess 2 out of 3 not bad. Rangers will always suck!



Rangers will still suck in that case(Still play one here, have for ages) because the weapons still suck ass compared to the homeland weapons.

Ahh good ol hotenow scimitar, and the it's ice cousin.
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Postby Burmadapig » Sat Mar 26, 2005 3:15 am

About the only ranger that I can think of that didn't suck was Aragorn. Oh wait, he's not a Toril ranger. My bad.
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Postby Yasden » Sat Mar 26, 2005 3:39 am

If he were, he'd be whining about why rangers don't have innate dorf toss.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Mar 26, 2005 4:27 am

I get innate bishall.
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Postby Elet » Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:05 am

Yasden wrote:If he were, he'd be whining about why rangers don't have innate dorf toss.


but he got innate to flirt with the princess
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Postby Sarell » Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:35 am

I agree with kiryan in that I think you will find a lot more interesting ranger tricks come out of the woodwork when arrow loss is fixed.
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Postby Ssryth » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:02 am

two possible additions... (possibly brought up previously)

Ranged hitall - there was a bug with dire strafe when they were first implemented which allowed me to take three shots at my target for every other mob in the room 8) I knew this wasn't right, but always thought it was meant to take shots at EVERYONE in the room, but sadly neither incarnations of this remains today.

The other thing is targeted shots - eye shot (blind), leg shot (-agi) etc etc

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Postby Selias » Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:44 pm

If rangers are supposed to be ranged attack masters, then there needs to be a skill-set for their ranged attack. I'm not talking about 2 or 3 skills, but half of a whole skill tree. Of course that would lead to reducing the current skill tree. However, there is a lot you could do.

Possible skill ideas:
ranged hitall

called shots - could be expanded to allow various spell like effects. Allow for neck shots (stops/prevents casting for 2 ticks), eye shots (blind for a bit), hand shots (disarm), etc.

Arrow of Death - upon reaching 40th level the ranger can craft an "arrow of death". Each ranger could only have 1 arrow per 24hour period. They wouldn't stock up, each ranger would only be able to carry 1 arrow, and they're non transferable (cursed? can you load cursed ammo into quivers?). When used the arrow has a chance to instantly kill the victim based on the ranger's proficiency.


Other skills would be very useful, like trip or maybe springleap *wink*.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:25 pm

the strafe attack for dire raiders gave them a possibility of an extra attack on every mob in the room with whatever weapon they wielded (meant to be melee only weapons). It was easy to infer that archery is really 1 attack (which is transformed by archery code into multiple shots) so strafing with a bow resulted in 1 extra attack (3 shots) on each mob until they made it not work with a bow. While this was a very cool skill/bug, even suggesting that we go back to that is not wise. Why would you give 1 class the best area AND single target melee damage? Each class needs a niche, and there just aren't that many niches to go around.

I'm less in favor of giving archery reflexive type affects although they would make perfect sense. I'm more in favor of new bows being coded that have procs.

Rogues get all manner of poisons that grant effects, lets try not to recreate rangers in the rogue image. Affects are nice and interesting and fun, but id rather sacrifice effects for superior native damage.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:59 am

Burmadapig wrote:About the only ranger that I can think of that didn't suck was Aragorn.


There's no preceeding "A".

I'm disappointed. When I read the title of this thread, I was expecting a completely different meaning of "lack of skills." As in, "We wiped because of Selias's total and utter lack of skills."
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:55 am

8)

Groups only want characters with awesome skills: bowhunting skills, nunchuku skills, computer hacking skills.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:58 am

Rangers don't lack skills. Their players, however...

The Ranger as a (possibly only) class is completely player-dependant.

The only possible useful position for a ranger in a group is as the leader.

Archery allows them to lure without waiting for a rogue, minor skills in rescue and bash allow them to step in temporarily for other group members, and minor spellcasting capabilities round out the ranger's skill set.

Furthermore, not being a spell-dependant class, rangers are more capable of observing battle and commanding the group.

Also not heavily relied on for rescuing or bashing, the lag associated with both skills do not as much effect a ranger's command capabilities.

Currently, the most critical handicap to the ranger, is that a ranger's spells and skills are SEVERLY limited (as are druids) to nature only - spells like transport via plants and pass without trace (two of our Most useful spells) are Utterly defeated in most zones by default.

But truthfully, Rangers are the Only class to suffer such severe limitations from area to area.

In my opinion the handicap is poorly done and implemented. These spells should continue to work in non-nature zones like our other nature dependant spells, with perhaps a higher fail rate or lower effectiveness, much in the way call lightning or dust devil works.

Anyway that's about it.

A Ranger's only shot at being useful is to lead. But honestly, you'd need to play a different class of character to Go Often Enough to learn zones.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:22 pm

>Rangers don't lack skills. Their players, however...

couldn't be more true.

I disagree that rangers are "better" at leading than other classes. I don't think you even begin to make a case for that statement let alone look at the non-game dynamic features that impact leading. However, I do see that the majority of the time in the majority of fights they are "unlagged" and not chanting spells.

but, i think your statements do touch on something that has been said many time over the years.

Rangers are grease

not beneath a mobs feet, but grease for the group. A ranger never stands out for being a good ranger because there is no way to quantify what he does very objectively; he merely exists. A good ranger is indispensable and the reason legends like sylvos and weylarii live on and enjoy group invitations.

When a ranger rescues and saves a mage because all the other warriors are lagged no one bats an eye gives him a clap on the back or shiz. When a ranger dies because the warriors were running rescue triggers and didn't bother to rescue, everyone cracks rangerTANK jokes. When a tank dies and a ranger picks up the bash, no one notices, they're just amazed that you survived "somehow".

All that "somehow" is a ranger stepping up and playing his class well. As teflor said, ranger is one of the few classes where true skill comes into play (shaman used to be a skill class before scale and displace). nearly every other class is 1 dimensional, you either heal or you don't, you either scale or you don't. There is very little question about what you should be doing as an enchanter or cleric or warrior or bard or invoker ect... Rangers however have a diverse set of skills which can smooth out a bumpy trip.
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Postby Yasden » Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:27 pm

For the record:

I always put rangers on my rescue list, unless they tell me not to.

Any warrior that doesn't is a lazy SOB who doesn't deserve the script he's using! :P
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:09 am

kiryan wrote:Rangers are grease

not beneath a mobs feet, but grease for the group.


If they let us grease mobs feet, we might get some groupability.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:13 am

teflor the ranger wrote:The only possible useful position for a ranger in a group is as the leader.


I like how you justified this by basically saying that Rangers don't actually do anything in combat, which lets them "lead better" because their attention isn't being focused on pesky details like dealing damage, healing, rescuing, or participating in stuns.

I've never heard it spun quite so well before. You get a gold star!

There was a time when H-E Rangers DID have an advantage when leading, because they had infra innately and sense life on the spell list. That tiny sliver of usefulness has long since departed.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:30 pm

still got sense life, i dont remember seeing anything like infra

the advantage rangers may have in leading is not that they contribute nothing to combat, its that thier contributions don't lag themselves.

archery damage is very significant in its present implementation.
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Postby Turgil » Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:50 am

kiyran said:

I'm more in favor of new bows being coded that have procs.


Are there any other proccing bows other than warbow and recurve?

There does seem to be a lack of nice range weapon options for rangers...



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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:10 am

Waitin' for my bowjari.
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:49 pm

or animal summoning
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Postby Sarell » Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:26 am

SHORT: Bow of 100 strings.

LONG: A mass of twine looking like a cross between a poodle and a bowl of spaghetti sits here.

EXAMINE: This bow has 100 long pieces of string attached to it, on which to tie each of your arrows, so that they don't get lost. It will however lag you for approximately 2 mud-days due to untangle lag when used in conjunction with the collect command and also has a chance of proccing a group version of the entangle spell.

SEE ALSO: ENTANGLE, COLLECT, 3W
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