News Flash: Are invokers obsolete?

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Jhorr
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News Flash: Are invokers obsolete?

Postby Jhorr » Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:02 am

Specialized daggers + rogue skills > invoker.

A rogue cannot be silenced.
A rogue can assassinate.
A rogue can backstab.
A rogue can circle.
A rogue still does damage if it's bashed.
A rogue can abort spellcasting.
A rogue can tank better.
A rogue can rescue, sometimes.
A rogue can hold pop in zones.
Last edited by Jhorr on Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Corth » Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:31 am

A rogue cannot pump out massive amounts of area damage.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Gormal » Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:53 am

10 khanjaris and 5 efhr's is a beautiful thing.
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Postby Yayaril » Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:57 am

8)

Rogues never backstab because they're too wussy.
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Postby Burmadapig » Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:21 pm

Nothing to see here, move along.
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Postby kiryan » Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:55 pm

rogue vs invoker is principally about area damage. invokers should never have been single target kings of destruction.

some things to note:

rogues can't haste self
rogues cant globe
rogues do half damage to wraiths and some sort of reduced damage to dragons.

they have to depend on others to do damage often cases and they absolutely 0 capability for area damage. they also lose quite a bit of damage if bashed, not quite the same as an invoker who loses a spell, but a significant percentage of damage.

I do see rogues as being more effective tanks than casters however their ability to tank is primarily dependent on defensive casters. Rogues probably have at least a 25% edge on tanking, but invokers tend to wear 50% more hps.

Also note that with the way that khanjari and BC dagger work being in for short periods of time is not nearly as effective as 25-30 round runs.

invoker can relo
invoker can gate
invoker can area stun

I think you'd be hard pressed to say either class is better than the other, however you can very easily say a particular application of invokers or rogues is better. For instance, i'd pass on the 5 rogue manscorps or probably izan run. I'd prefer to be with 5 rogues when killing a dragon (or better yet with 5 rangers). In avernus / bc I prefer to have more rogues although with good people debuffing I think invokers are just as effective.

Personally, I like playing rogues because I've always had a hardon for melee procs, but to even suggest that invokers are suffering because of rogues or khanjari is silly as they completely dominated damage for the first 80% of this wipe and still unquestionably reign as lord of area damage.

I would like to see AC work like MR however this could not be applied to players until mage ac is nerfed f*ing hard and i suspect majority of zone mobs all run at a very very low AC.
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Postby auslyx » Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:23 pm

kiryan wrote:
some things to note:

rogues can't haste self
rogues cant globe


Neither do invokers. Every class has their niche. I'm not sure what an invoker would offer considering some people want their areas nerfed.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:00 am

invokers dont need globe or haste to do damage, how does what you say relate to what i said?
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Postby Sarell » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:04 am

I think Kiryan's post pretty much sums up most things I was thinking. I'd still be keen to see what a round of force missiles does compared to a round of rogue damage. Miss gc mightily. Vokers areas are the stuff for most zones, and not having to globe and haste them is great, a rogue remember isn't very useful when not combined with other classes aswell. Voker and rogue both need vit and gheal to stay alive on combat of course, however rogues also require globes. If your globe falls on a fight when you are lagged in circle / trip or whatever, let alone garrote, you are dead. Being able to abort a spell if you get in atrouble is a great advantage of being stuck in lag. I think my ranger might still do more target damage than my rogue. Definately when you take into account mob defense. Back to vokers tho, they really do work best in most situations imho.
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Postby Jhorr » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:31 pm

Some nice thoughts here. Upon further reflection, the two classes do seem to be rather balanced atm, as long as fancy weapons are involved. And it is nice to have an alternative to the damage=invoker status quo.
Last edited by Jhorr on Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby auslyx » Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:28 pm

Thanks to the latest in dagger technology, rogues can solo stuff in DS. I'd like to see an invoker try that.
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Postby Maedor » Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:45 pm

Solo ability has nothing to do with this thread quite honestly, but Oteb has solod ds mobs..so enjoy. Invoker's are the king's of area damage, as they should be. Go try izans without any invokers...I think you'd soon see that they are still necessary (unfortunatly) for zoning.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:05 pm

auslyx wrote:Thanks to the latest in dagger technology, rogues can solo stuff in DS. I'd like to see an invoker try that.


Is that violin music I hear? Sorry, I know that's mean of me, but this particular argument goes up in EVERY Rogue vs Everyeffingclassthereis thread that pops up. Yes, there are things we can solo that other classes may not be able to handle. Why is it only a bad thing when rogues can do it, and not any of the casting classes? Do you have any idea how many potions rogues go through with any big solo event? Or how long it takes?

Different classes who are solo capable can solo different mobs. The druids and elementalists in Imphras can solo some things that just amaze me. Why doesn't anybody ever mutter about that? I'd like to see an invoker tackle most of the things a healing capable caster can.
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Postby Yasden » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:17 pm

I soloed a liger once.
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Postby Pril » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:34 pm

I've solo'd DS as agor before it's annoying but doable. I've also solo'd DS as Cofen, and Pril, pretty much any class can solo ds given time/effort/etc.

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Postby Ihazim » Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:46 pm

rogue's are overpowered. they have too many responsibilities. all classes need to be reevaluated for usefullness.

backstab doesn't work that much. ppl who make rogues do more than circle rely on them to do too much work.

equipment need to be re evaluated in their abilities and stats. just one example: khanjari dagger.
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Postby Ionari » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:29 pm

Ashiwi wrote:
auslyx wrote:Thanks to the latest in dagger technology, rogues can solo stuff in DS. I'd like to see an invoker try that.


Is that violin music I hear? Sorry, I know that's mean of me, but this particular argument goes up in EVERY Rogue vs Everyeffingclassthereis thread that pops up.

Rogues are the new Monk, sadly.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:46 pm

There is nothing overpowered about rogue damage at present.

mob has poor defensive skills, good MR/saves
rogue, ranger, invoker

mob has good defensive skills including a shield, good MR/saves
ranger, rogue, invoker

mob has stone
ranger, invoker, rogue

and anytime the rogue isn't haste or !globe against a shielded mob
ranger, invoker, rogue

************

the only thing that needs to be re-evaluated about khanjari is

why aren't there more khanjari's for different race, melee class, alignment, and gender combinations.

Waiting for the bow that shoots khanjaris, a dire raider khanjari and a baby warrior khanjari.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Gormal » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:57 pm

Its not just about rogue damage and khanjari... its the incredible array of skills that rogues posses that are all highly effective and reliable.
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Postby Yasden » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:13 pm

Khanjari procs heal too much. If it this was super-rare, khanjari wouldn't be overpowered at all imho.
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Postby Jhorr » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:00 pm

Again, some interesting thoughts. Please, continue.
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Postby Waelos » Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:05 am

< 848h/848H/126P 132v/133V >
< T: Weylarii TC: excellent E: magma EC: few wounds > kill 1.drake

You shriek in pain as a magma drake underling plunges a razor-sharp wing talon into your flesh!
OUCH! That really did HURT!
You scream in agony as you are cruelly impaled on the razor-sharp spike!
The world starts spinning, and your ears are ringing!
You attack a magma drake underling, landing six hits.
Kirya attacks Dresk'akla, landing two hits.
Dresk'akla spreads his wings and ROARS, filling your heart with terror!
A magma drake underling breathes Fire!
A magma drake underling burns you.
YIKES! Another hit like that, and you've had it!!
You wish that your wounds would stop BLEEDING so much!

A magma drake underling breathes fire, engulfing four targets
Elun flies in from the east.
Kaln is Full Healing kirya...

< 1h/848H/126P 132v/133V >
________________________________

847 hps in one round. Not the most I've seen but holy crap!!
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Postby Sarell » Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:04 pm

Khanjari is super rare, everyone just plays too much! :P

I don't think rogues solo DS very well. They do superb with an elementalist, but solo? My shaman has far greater solo capabilty than a rogue any day. Even my chanter does better.
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Postby Gantoris » Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:08 pm

Honestly, I can only solo stuff in DS with some buff spells and if I go without buffs, I burn a hole in my coin purse with disposables.

This whole thread makes me almost giddy to be honest. After playing assassins and rogues religiously since the beginning, it's nice to hear people bitching about the class being TOO good ;) (cheer)

In fact, when vokers came out I switched to playing an Invoker for a longass time because they were awesome.

Apples and Oranges through IMHO on the class balance thing. Each class has it's own focus and until rogues get a whirlwind attack of doom... play on, no foul.

~Gantoris
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Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:27 pm

I forgot one other scenario:

mobs that cant be circled and talk half melee damage (wraiths) and have moderate to low MR

invoker, ranger, rogue

------------

on rogues being the new monks

monks didn't need a actionable combat skill to increase their damage (circle) they had a reflexive one that doubled their barehand damage and a self hit/dam buff (chant)

in terms of damage rogues are certainly quite different than monks and don't do monk damage even with khanjari. A rogue might peak as much damage as an oldschool monk, but not sustain it for 40 rounds while bashed.

in general however, rogues are better than monks ever were. At least monks had weaknesses... couldnt hit wraiths, couldn't tank at all, much choicer in eq selection.

I miss monks for diversity reasons... name a melee class that isn't heavily eq dependent? the closest thing we have to a melee class that isnt eq dependent is ranger.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:38 pm

kiryan wrote:There is nothing overpowered about rogue damage at present.
EDITED MIDDLE NONSENSE
the only thing that needs to be re-evaluated about khanjari is

why aren't there more khanjari's for different race, melee class, alignment, and gender combinations.

Waiting for the bow that shoots khanjaris, a dire raider khanjari and a baby warrior khanjari.


This is funny stuff. I think all melee is "unbalanced", period. The rogue
being at the extreme high end of damage right now, would therefore, fall
into "overpowered". even without khanjari. Khanjari is just icing on the
cake. Why one doesn't exist for every class is that this mud is based
on grouping. If every class had their own version, this would be a
mud full of soloists, and it would require even LESS skill and time than
it does now to level. We would have more L50's that have no clue
how to play their classes.

As far as the original intent of this thread, rogue vs invoker. In a single
target, yes a rogue pwns an invoker. That is by design imho. Invokers
are meant for raining sulfur and all of that area damage stuff.

I think all these Xclass vs. Yclass arguments are rather silly. Quite some
time ago, it was announced that the staff was aware that melee needed
an overhaul. Until that happens, it would be nice to see some tweaks
here and there, but any large scale changes shouldn't be expected until
the melee overhaul is complete. As far as an ETA on that, who friggin
knows. Everything seems to take 10X longer than what is assumed.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:54 pm

rogues are not better than invokers when mobs are flagged warrior wearing a shield and a weapon or are incorporeal with low MR or the rogue isn't haste.

rangers are better than rogues in several situations for single target damage.
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Postby Jhorr » Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:17 am

Invokers are also quite boring to play. I mean, you just type in cast 'inferno' and you hit the enter key until you are out. Then, you switch to 'meteorswarm'. Some situations call for 'thunderstorm'. SPOB was depressing when it went in, watching all my spells get shrugged.

The most exciting thing I've done as a voker I think is repeatedly blasting a mob's coldshield with inferno until it gets smart and casts fireshield, and then I get to switch to, say, meteorswarm. The ZAP thing added some intrigue and I got to make some triggers to avoid it but once those are written, they are written.

Maybe some people have some ideas to make invokers a more interesting class? Even monks had some skills to play with. Invokers are too one-dimensional. Heck, even enchanters are actually more interesting to play offensively. Chromatic Orb is a fun spell, and mixed with pris spray and power word blind, and constriction, you can have a lot of fun making mobs really weak.
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Postby Azenilsee » Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:05 am

Jhorr wrote:Maybe some people have some ideas to make invokers a more interesting class?


Maybe you're not an invoker kind of guy.
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Postby Corth » Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:18 pm

Jhorr needs a lobotomy to make him into an invoker kind of guy. :)

*duck*
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Diel » Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:56 pm

the best part about playing a voker is the fact that you don't really have to pay that much attention, therefore letting me afk as much as I want in a zone. but that's about it. uber lame otherwise. add something cool like letting them wear warrior gear or cast healing spells. that would make them equivalent to rogues! or give them a piece of eq that makes them a solo class... or maybe stealth... yeah.. vokers are doomed to be boring forevar :P
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:39 pm

kiryan wrote:There is nothing overpowered about rogue damage at present.

mob has poor defensive skills, good MR/saves
rogue, ranger, invoker

mob has good defensive skills including a shield, good MR/saves
ranger, rogue, invoker

mob has stone
ranger, invoker, rogue

and anytime the rogue isn't haste or !globe against a shielded mob
ranger, invoker, rogue

************

the only thing that needs to be re-evaluated about khanjari is

why aren't there more khanjari's for different race, melee class, alignment, and gender combinations.

Waiting for the bow that shoots khanjaris, a dire raider khanjari and a baby warrior khanjari.


Call me naieve but how is a ranger going to do better than a rogue versus a mob with stoneskin? Better question, how they going to do better than an invoker?! imho it should be voker, rogue, ranger. and on the without globe, not even a contest it would be invoker, ranger (because of more hp and survivability, not damage) then rogue.
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Postby Sylvos » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:44 pm

Archery ignores defensive skills and spells. Dodge, parry, shieldblock, riposte, stone, blur, displace... none of it matters against archery. Apparently, all arrows fired are heat seeking S.M.A.R.T. missiles *shrug*

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