Evil races defunct

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kiryan
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Evil races defunct

Postby kiryan » Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:05 am

Are there any plans to address this dysfunction?

I once thought allowing humans to group with evil races was the best idea ever. Now I see that it was only the final nail in the evil race coffin as it allowed "career" evil races to roll humans in the guise of still being able to group evil.

I don't know how you can fix this or if it is possible as it goes far beyond stats, classes and power. Something significant needs to be done to nurture the ever shrinking evil race pbase. The ideas I have are terrible at best, maybe someone has better ones. No one mention evil race grouping with good race please, it'll ruin this thread and eliminate more uniqueness from the game.

1. evil race artifacts or insane evilrace only eq (or just imp a couple amazing warrior weapons).

2. lower group limit for evil races to 10 and upgrade certain evil race/class innate abilities to make zones possible.

3. upgrade group limit for evil races to 20 so that they can "horde" and no one is ever left out. (imp some spells that make evil race groups possible, no enchanter is going to dscale 20 people).

4. zones that are designed to be 10x harder for goodies than evils and net some top end gear. !good race is stupid, but if you add a bunch of agro good race mobs you can accomplish the same effect. The eq should be goodraceable at first, you have to get people coming over first. Later zones might net evil race only eq.

5. eliminate the option to roll good race characters so that new players will be funneled into the evil race ranks. perhaps alternate days Tuesday - Sunday only evil races available to roll. Monday you can roll either.

6. make lich a race again or make them evil race only. it worked once before =).
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Postby kiryan » Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:06 am

yes most of these ideas are terrible. all of these ideas are terrible.

please please please no one mention evils grouping with goodies. this thread will go to straight to the crapper if anyone even brings it up.
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Postby Gura » Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:24 am

remove evilraces all together. offer anyone with an evilrace char a goodrace char of the same quality. 50 warr for 50 warr etc. i dont wanna see it...but its an idea.
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Postby Ambar » Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:35 pm

eww ..

Ambar a barbarian??

eww
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:30 pm

First off, i definately see a problem with the evil races. There are too few people, and of those people, even fewer are of the "core classes" required to form a zoning group. I think to find the answer to this situation, we must look at the trend that has already presented itself. When humans of evil and neutral align were allowed to group with evilrace, you stated that lots of evils made evil/neutral humans. Now, it has effectively made the population of evilrace chars even lower.

With the solutions listed above, i can see serious imbalance issues with all of the above. For instance, if group size limit was increased to 20, zones as a whole would be easier, and all that would happen would be evilrace groups full of neutral/evil humans would pwn zones and the eq would be too easy to get. This more easily aquired eq would be distributed across toril by a variety of means, sale/auction/trade etc. further mucking up the economy.

Menzo was a good start to sparking life back into the evilraces, but too little, way too late. Evilraces already have stats and abilities (troll regen, psi's, etc) that make them superior to the goodraces in that regard, what difference would more race-restricted eq make? Probbably very little.

This is a similar problem/trend to the PvE server on WoW i played on. The alliance had all the cool toys, more 60th level chars, and about 10X the playerbase. It prettymuch lead to my leaving WoW alltogether. I really can't forsee a good solution to this problem. So many variables to consider!
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Postby Yasden » Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:47 pm

There's two powerhouse associations in the MUD. Scions and Imphras.

I know several of them have high level evilrace chars.

So here's an idea...

Why not actually play them and stop being incognito/anon?

And to further expand on that idea, I wholeheartedly recommend guildleaders encouraging their members to level up an evilrace alt. Apparently people are forgetting the racial bonuses.

Hell, if you want to know what race to choose for a class, ask Sservis, he knows the stats better than anyone. Sure, it sucks trying to get somewhere to xp at low level, but once you overcome that, it's actually relatively easy to do xp anywhere, provided you stay indoors as an ultravision, or have a squid with globe of darkness in the group.

Races without ultra: Yuan-ti, Orc, Ogre, Troll
Races with ultra: Illithid, Drow, Duergar

Of the ultravision races, illithids (psionicists) are pretty much a necessity for any high level zone now (for darkness, transport, tower of iron will [group mind blank, mmmm]), drow are great mages, great warriors (compared to greys), and duergars make great classes all around (compared to regular dwarves + 1 str notch).

Yuan-ti make great classes all around too, even warriors...but you have to be able to learn to adjust with losing several slots of eq (ears, legs, feet, but gain a tail slot).

Orcs make the best shamans if you're going for powerplaying. There's battlechanters too, dire raiders if you want your ranger replacement.

Ogres...I won't say much other than they're fun to play, the warriors get superior str/con over everyone, the shamans are fun to play because of !bash issues in most zones (especially if you roll female), and innate doorbash is fun if you're feeling suicidal.

Trolls are generally the most popular tank, but if you can handle ultravision, duergars are the most well-rounded. Their shamans are a lot smarter than ogres, and you can solo better than any other race shaman.
The only major downfall (and it can be a dooooooozy in caster fights) is the double fire damage (fire seeds can do 500+ single target, cloud 800, lava burst 900, dessicate 900).

So yeah, they all have some sort of downfall, but the real reason why people lean away from evilraces is because of groupability. Everyone wanted it easy starting off with, which is fine, but the major difficulties of starting out as evil have been pretty much nullified.

Over the years, evil races have gone from purely ogres and trolls to a full variety of racial selections and class availabilities. The only thing they lack now is the people with the desire to play them.

So...bored of your human cleric? Your barb warrior? Your half-elf bard? Your grey elf invoker? Try rolling an evilrace of the same class...I think you'd be a bit surprised how much more fun they can be.

T - Wanting to play evilrace but never anyone on anymore.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:54 pm

Gura wrote:remove evilraces all together. offer anyone with an evilrace char a goodrace char of the same quality. 50 warr for 50 warr etc. i dont wanna see it...but its an idea.


Just go with the opposite. Apply a minimum level/maximum level. Min 20, max uh, 41? 46? 50?

And allow one goodrace char to be deleted, ported over to the same class, appropriate race on the evil side.

It'll never happen, but it's an idea.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:48 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:
Gura wrote:remove evilraces all together. offer anyone with an evilrace char a goodrace char of the same quality. 50 warr for 50 warr etc. i dont wanna see it...but its an idea.


Just go with the opposite. Apply a minimum level/maximum level. Min 20, max uh, 41? 46? 50?

And allow one goodrace char to be deleted, ported over to the same class, appropriate race on the evil side.

It'll never happen, but it's an idea.


I have several goodie alts of atleast level 35, and if I could pour 2 or 3 of them and make a say level 30-40 evil race char to start out with, I would definitely do it...

I would like to help out the evils, but, if I roll a character to play over there, I have noone to group with, so I end up being a level one for a week with my thumb up my butt.

Characters roll an evil=find there is noone to group with=leave and play something else=still noone to group with.

It's a terrible cycle that has to be broken some how.

But here's a question= Does the evil pbase really want this?
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Postby Yasden » Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:59 pm

It doesn't matter what the "evil pbase" wants. That is such a sketchy term and pretty much a null phrase because 99.9% of all evils have a goodie alt, meaning there's really no dedicated evilrace players anymore.

This isn't Duris, we (evils) don't purge new folks so we don't lose our cool innates.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:57 pm

Rework evils to be ultra-challenging again, put warnings back about how difficult they are, throw them some meaty bones to make the challenge well worth their while, and turn them back into what they used to be, instead of the dumbed down version handed everything they need on a plate so there's not much point in being proud of anything they've accomplished except for the fact that they did it with fewer people to play with. Evils used to attract the really hardcore players, those who could eat up the challenge of working their way up a vicious ladder for the perks and prestige of being the top of the evil hierarchy, but no more.

Reduce their group sizes so they have to be more selective about who they take, but compensate by upping their natural defenses and offenses. Toughen up higher level zones to work more aggressively against evil races, but toss in a couple of exceedingly challenging evil only zones that make normal zones seem like a cakewalk and give them a low number of very difficult to get items which would make any goodie wet themselves if they saw the stats.

Don't dumb it down and make it easier for them, that's what's been done all this time and look where it's contributed to getting them and the rest of the game. Take the opposite tactic and make it a point of pride to have a high level evil again.
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Postby Yayaril » Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:58 pm

8)

The 'evilrace' players' can have a "Get a friend to mud day" where they get a buddy to try out the mud and start an evilrace character.
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Postby Disoputlip » Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:09 pm

When listing the great class/race combo's then there is no way around the yuan-ti cleric. By leagues the best race for cleric in the game. (Unless the other races gets 150+ wisdom or so from eq.)

Still, those really nice bonusses haven't been enough to get players to switch side.

Also, if many of the l33t changed sides, then I think mabye evils would be downgraded. And nobody wants that.

Interesting idea with setting groupsize up to 20 for evils. Then there should be no humans in group ofcourse.

Here is my idea for getting more to play evils:
troll rogue.
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Postby Latreg » Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:18 pm

as someone who is new to the evil race side of the game....
basically playing a evil is just a pain in the ass, now I realize Toril is designed to frustrate players for no real reason, but more so on the evil side. It's a pain to get to any of the exp zones, which doesn't include those stupid paladin groups and blue dragon you could meet on the way. The main hang out is DK if you are an orc and die, well you walk it and tell me how much fun it is.
Playing an evil isn't what I would call challenging, just annoying.

so make a list of pro's and con's to playing an evil

I won't get started on dayblind.
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:33 pm

I figured the ogre dual wielding 2h swords would be a nice shot in the arm but it seems to get minimal admin attention.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:38 pm

Thilindel wrote:I figured the ogre dual wielding 2h swords would be a nice shot in the arm but it seems to get minimal admin attention.


But melee sucks for damage. whats the point?

Furthermore, buffing up the evilraces stats would only further the gap. Writing evilrace only zones is a great thought, but writing good zones takes
time. Then, the yield at the end is a zone that less than 30% of the mud can use? i can't think of why a zone writer would want to do something like this.
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Postby Teyaha » Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:22 pm

Latreg wrote:as someone who is new to the evil race side of the game....
basically playing a evil is just a pain in the ass, now I realize Toril is designed to frustrate players for no real reason, but more so on the evil side. It's a pain to get to any of the exp zones, which doesn't include those stupid paladin groups and blue dragon you could meet on the way. The main hang out is DK if you are an orc and die, well you walk it and tell me how much fun it is.
Playing an evil isn't what I would call challenging, just annoying.

so make a list of pro's and con's to playing an evil

I won't get started on dayblind.


valid, but falls on deaf ears here. the pbase that posts on the board is all about punishing you if you have a +1 str over a similiar goodie race.
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Postby Lahgen » Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:46 pm

Teyaha wrote:
valid, but falls on deaf ears here. the pbase that posts on the board is all about punishing you if you have a +1 str over a similiar goodie race.


What are you talking about?
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Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Raiwen » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:24 am

Ashiwi wrote:Reduce their group sizes so they have to be more selective about who they take, but compensate by upping their natural defenses and offenses.


This is exactly why I stopped playing a goodie. Evils remind me of how the mud used to be. How the players used to act and include everyone - regardless of "efficiency".

This will also hammer the final nail in the Ogre Coffin. If evils have a choice of only taking 3 warriors, will they take two trolls and an Ogre? Or two trolls and a drow? Why would anyone want an Ogre shaman when an orc shaman performs much better?

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Postby Marrus » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:18 am

In order to save evils you must address the core problem, namely, there is not enough SKILLED players on at any one time to tackle the really challenging zones out there. Therefore, all the talent that exits on evils side eventually migrates over to goodies, because who wants to watch people spank in dk vault when you could be doing Magma or Hulburg instead?

Sorry, Kiryan...remove all racial grouping restrictions.
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Postby Burmadapig » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:46 am

The evil race pbase SHOULD BE A FRACTION OF good race pbase.

I've always been of the opinion that DK is the lamest evil center. Not that the zone itself is lame, but that it is essentially a surface city. Darkies should be forced into the Underdark. There should be no evil race surface cities that are EASILY ENTERED.

I agree with Ashiwi as to making evil races CHALLENGING again. Evils should not be just as easy to play as good races are. Currently, there is no difference in playing good vs. evil. It's just as easy to play evils. It used be something if you were an evil only player, but now it means nothing. It requires no more skill whatsoever to play an evil.

I disagree with all that said anything about changing group size either way, smaller or larger. That will just piss people off to the point that they won't play at all.

IMHO Humans should ONLY be able to group with evils if they have forsaken goodies. Bring back OUTCASTING. Make people choose where their alliances are.

If you don't make evils more challenging, you might as well not have them at all.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:59 am

Raiwen wrote:This is exactly why I stopped playing a goodie. Evils remind me of how the mud used to be. How the players used to act and include everyone - regardless of "efficiency".


::roll::

If you made evils substantially more powerful than goods then they'd steamroll every zone with a full 15 player group. With forcibly reduced group sizes and greater power the evil pbase might even be able to muster two full zoning groups, which at a group size of 10 would get 5 more people included than one zoning group with a group size of 15.

And that's why you left goodies??? Can we not go there in this thread please?
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Postby Marrus » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:19 am

Not completely sure here, Ashiwi, but I think he is more or less saying it's easier for him to be included in groups on evil side than on goodie side which is completely unsurprising because evils are so damn desperate for warm bodies they will nearly take anyone to a zone. I wouldn't attribute this to some sort of magnanimous esprit de corrps so much as raw desperation, but ...use your illusion there, Nuggog.
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Postby Corth » Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:05 am

Maybe I'm wrong but my impression is that evils got hurt really bad when Europeans couldn't connect to the mud for several months. Not sure why that particular problem wasn't fixed right away.. even though many people volunteered solutions. They lost a bunch of good players really quick that way.
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Postby Vigis » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:30 am

I think Corth is right on this one. We lost a bunch of people east of the Atlantic and that hurt the evil Pbase. Maybe we should focus on regaining them?
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:49 am

Vigis wrote:I think Corth is right on this one. We lost a bunch of people east of the Atlantic and that hurt the evil Pbase. Maybe we should focus on regaining them?


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Postby Gizep » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:50 am

Anyone can log in to toril for the first time now, and level any evil race to 20 with no problems, once they hit 20, they actualy have to deal with the realization of, hey this race / class is hard, and then they make a goodie.

All of the real hardships are still there, try running out of ghore for the first time, or walking along and meeting that paladin of torm. Hell, try running around in daylight as a drow.

I won't play my evil because it isn't like it used to be, when I was an evil in sojourn 2, we NEVER turned anyone down when they requested a group. Now a days, all you get is no we're full and if you do who evil grouped you see 3 freaking people.
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Postby Gizep » Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:01 am

You wanna revive evil races again? Everyone who plays evil must be so generous that it hurts. I mean people who will go out of their way to find and rez your noob level 10 corpse. People who go spank every zone they can, invite everyone they can, and divy it up as fair as possible, that means, if someone genuinely needs it, they get it, no matter how many items they get that round. You play evil like that and I bet they liven up again.

I know I for one was frustrated very much after my cable got shut off, and was MIA for 6 months. Coming back to 0 groups and 0 chance at dragonscales cinched it for me.
As long as we live in this world we are bound to encounter problems. If, at such times, we lose hope and become discouraged, we diminish our ability to face difficulties. If, on the other hand, we remember that it is not just ourselves but everyone who has to undergo suffering, this more realistic perspective will increase our determination and capacity to overcome troubles.
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Postby Raiwen » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:25 pm

Marrus wrote:...because evils are so damn desperate for warm bodies they will nearly take anyone to a zone. I wouldn't attribute this to some sort of magnanimous esprit de corrps so much as raw desperation, but ...use your illusion there, Nuggog.


The mud used to be inclusive. Regardless of why the evils accept anyone into their zone groups, the fact remains that they do. Once that stops, then I'll probably retire both goodie and evil characters until something changes.

My definition of fun is different than others. I like interacting with other cool people, tackling zones, and helping new people get better at the game. I'm not really interested in lowering the time it takes to do XYZ zone by a few minutes, or creating very restrictive groups in order to make the group as elite as possible. I am interested in playing a class and race that I feel is very FUN!

I have no problem with making the evil side harder. The best games are the ones where you had to work for your rewards, however if by "making hard" ends up equating to "excluding players/classes", then that's an improvement that I don't want to see.

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Postby Raiwen » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:34 pm

Gizep wrote:I won't play my evil because it isn't like it used to be, when I was an evil in sojourn 2, we NEVER turned anyone down when they requested a group. Now a days, all you get is no we're full and if you do who evil grouped you see 3 freaking people.


Gizep, any xp groups I've been in, we've never turned down anyone. Any xp groups I lead typically turn into groups of 12 or more laying waste to whatever xp zone we're doing. I also have taken some flak for letting the groups grow so big, but so what? We're having fun. If you see me on, send me a tell, and unless I'm doing a CR or handling something in real life, you're more than welcome in any group I'm in.

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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:08 pm

It is important to note that Evil and Good races of TorilMUD live in symbiosis with each other. What happens to one will invariable happen to the other. I’ve already started to note events that lead to the downfall of Evils are already transpiring amongst the Good population as well. It would be wise to address and resolve the situation as a whole.

I have no suggestions at this time. At one point I had tried desperately to turn things around, but you can’t help those who don’t want to be helped and/or choose not to get involved.
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Postby Latreg » Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:44 pm

Llaaldara wrote:I have no suggestions at this time. At one point I had tried desperately to turn things around, but you can’t help those who don’t want to be helped and/or choose not to get involved.


Well judging from these posts, sounds like people are trying to get involved but we can only offer up suggestions, we don't have the actual power to change certain things. As I have stated those paladin groups only kill newbies, same with the the dragon, this is NOT good for the game. Pissing off newbies so they quit doesn't help anyone. I don't see any staffers asking for feedback or ideas on this issue, so I guess it's a non-issue.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:54 pm

Llaaldara wrote:It is important to note that Evil and Good races of TorilMUD live in symbiosis with each other. What happens to one will invariable happen to the other. I’ve already started to note events that lead to the downfall of Evils are already transpiring amongst the Good population as well. It would be wise to address and resolve the situation as a whole.

I have no suggestions at this time. At one point I had tried desperately to turn things around, but you can’t help those who don’t want to be helped and/or choose not to get involved.


what events would those be.
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Postby Teyaha » Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:10 am

Latreg wrote:
Llaaldara wrote:I have no suggestions at this time. At one point I had tried desperately to turn things around, but you can’t help those who don’t want to be helped and/or choose not to get involved.


Well judging from these posts, sounds like people are trying to get involved but we can only offer up suggestions, we don't have the actual power to change certain things. As I have stated those paladin groups only kill newbies, same with the the dragon, this is NOT good for the game. Pissing off newbies so they quit doesn't help anyone. I don't see any staffers asking for feedback or ideas on this issue, so I guess it's a non-issue.


winnar!

this is still a GAME. there are certain truths to games - if it's impossibly hard it will only appeal to a small minority of potential customers. if a game is too easy once again it will only appeal to a small minority of potential customers, therefore a middle ground needs to be reached. putting paladins outside DK or making it impossible for a snake or troll with no previous experience on this game and no friends on this game as of yet to leave their hometown without countless frustrations is still silly in my opinion. people will still gravitate towards where all the OTHER people are, and in this game that's waterdeep.

the racial bonuses in this game are truly non issues end game with maybe the exception of trolls regen lowering downtime. oh you have one more con notch so you have 40 more hp! wow you're overpowered.

i know i'll be flamed - but those flames will be good examples to anyone anonymously perusing this board as they consider whether or not to try this game, and if they do whether or not they take what we perceive to be the easy route (good) or the challening route (evil).

honestly though a few posts here talk bout liking challenges yet in the same post you admit to playing goodies. shrug.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:39 am

the more that i think about it the answer is very simple.

nothing to do is what killed evils.

you live to zone. sure you have quests (most require zone items), you can level another alt, but in the end its all about zoning/acquiring eq. What exactly can you do if there is no one to group with?

evils lost the pbase and leaders they needed to zone and the result was eventual and predicatable. the human grouping thing made sense at the time as it created more ability to zone, but had a nasty negative effect instead which was to suck evil players to the neutral race which snowballed into evil groups having to compete for their "own" players with good race groups.

some evil tells you 'wanna do sg'
some goodie tells you 'nazI?'

evils, being a smaller pbase in general over the years, were more susceptible to the underlying issue. it would be a stretch to say that goodies will eventually suffer the same fate, but they could.

we need more things to do. new zones are great, but we need more. like new ways to acquire eq (tradeskills), another RP campaign, kingdom code, some sort of pvp...

does tiamat count as new if it's been 4 years since anyone other than gormal saw her?
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Postby Yasden » Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:00 am

I tried my hardest to keep the momentum going by leading zones 3-4x a week at one point. However, I was silently hoping someone would take the initiative to try and learn some of these zones I was leading. It never happened, and eventually I started burning out on leading.

I still try to lead from time to time, and honestly I would lead a lot more often if the people I had in my group were a lot more competent and skilled. I've done my time leading Brass, Jot, SF, etc etc etc teaching guildies how to zone and other evils, and I don't even like to set foot in these zones now unless it's for a quest, invasion, or playing around ninja-style (5 man brass w/o a cleric or chanter rocked!)

I also have this issue with trust. If people in my groups don't trust me, it puts me in the position that I feel like I have to prove something to them, and I'll be damned if I'm going to be judged like that. I know I'm fully able to lead any zones I already know, learn any zones I don't with a little tutelage, and *listen* to my group members and take sound advice to heart. I can honestly say I'm one of the more patient leaders.

However, treat me like I'm sort of an idiotic noob who fell off the plevel wagon last week and I won't lead..it's simple as that. That burns me up most of all.

Putting that aside and behind me, I'm extending an offer to lead/learn zones once again. However, due to work and school and other extracurricular activities, my time commitments are limited lately. Weekends are the best bet for me now. So...if you want me to lead a zone, all 5 of the characters I have at this time are either evil- or neutral-race.

But, I really think the MUD's future lies in other people stepping up and learning zones. Toraza won't be around forever to lead Hulburg, Kiryan won't be around forever to lead BC, etc. It isn't just about evilraces, it's about the entire playerbase taking a more proactive role in groups instead of just consenting, setting up trigs/aliases, and afking 75% of the time through the group. I'm guilty of it at times, we all are. But those of you who don't lead should pay a little closer attention in the zones you're in so that you might someday say "Hey, I know that zone...I wanna lead it."

In summary: A word of advice to any aspiring leaders...cut your teeth on small, short zones. Astral, Air, Fire are all 3 great zones to start off on. If you do have a spank, they're easy to CR from, and I can give you mob count totals for all 3 if you need. Brass, Jot, SF are also easy short zones, but a little more risky for CR if you spank.

I'm willing to teach if you're willing to learn. The first lesson any leader must learn is how to assemble a proper group, though.

Targsk/Aristan/Raskan/Danahg/Syjak

aka Deathmagnet
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Postby Botef » Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:59 am

Yasden wrote:I tried my hardest to keep the momentum going by leading zones 3-4x a week at one point. However, I was silently hoping someone would take the initiative to try and learn some of these zones I was leading. It never happened, and eventually I started burning out on leading.

I still try to lead from time to time, and honestly I would lead a lot more often if the people I had in my group were a lot more competent and skilled. I've done my time leading Brass, Jot, SF, etc etc etc teaching guildies how to zone and other evils, and I don't even like to set foot in these zones now unless it's for a quest, invasion, or playing around ninja-style (5 man brass w/o a cleric or chanter rocked!)

I also have this issue with trust. If people in my groups don't trust me, it puts me in the position that I feel like I have to prove something to them, and I'll be damned if I'm going to be judged like that. I know I'm fully able to lead any zones I already know, learn any zones I don't with a little tutelage, and *listen* to my group members and take sound advice to heart. I can honestly say I'm one of the more patient leaders.

However, treat me like I'm sort of an idiotic noob who fell off the plevel wagon last week and I won't lead..it's simple as that. That burns me up most of all.

Putting that aside and behind me, I'm extending an offer to lead/learn zones once again. However, due to work and school and other extracurricular activities, my time commitments are limited lately. Weekends are the best bet for me now. So...if you want me to lead a zone, all 5 of the characters I have at this time are either evil- or neutral-race.

But, I really think the MUD's future lies in other people stepping up and learning zones. Toraza won't be around forever to lead Hulburg, Kiryan won't be around forever to lead BC, etc. It isn't just about evilraces, it's about the entire playerbase taking a more proactive role in groups instead of just consenting, setting up trigs/aliases, and afking 75% of the time through the group. I'm guilty of it at times, we all are. But those of you who don't lead should pay a little closer attention in the zones you're in so that you might someday say "Hey, I know that zone...I wanna lead it."

In summary: A word of advice to any aspiring leaders...cut your teeth on small, short zones. Astral, Air, Fire are all 3 great zones to start off on. If you do have a spank, they're easy to CR from, and I can give you mob count totals for all 3 if you need. Brass, Jot, SF are also easy short zones, but a little more risky for CR if you spank.

I'm willing to teach if you're willing to learn. The first lesson any leader must learn is how to assemble a proper group, though.

Targsk/Aristan/Raskan/Danahg/Syjak

aka Deathmagnet


I've tried to get into leading on lots of occasions, infact its one of the sole reasons I came back here to play. The problem is the pbase for evils makes it very difficult, if not impossible for me to lead anything that requires a working group. Small zones like laby, or sg or stuff in hyssk is about all I've been able to take on because anytime I do manage to build a group, the group doesnt want to 'waste' time letting me lead something like jot or sf. They would rather do something with stuff they want, which is totally understandable given the rarity of zoning amongst evils. Non the less, I've about given up on trying to lead because the chance never seems to arise for me to try something new, and when it does its often overthrown to do something else. The attitude Im often met with, ususally something along the lines of "thats a newb zone, who would want to do that" has turned me off, and I tend to be quite bitter about it when people complain about there not being enough active leaders around to lead stuff.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:14 pm

what exactly is the reward for leading besides complaints, afk people, and a loss of respect if you happen to lead a spank.

it used to be your pick from the zone loot and prestige.
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:33 pm

kiryan wrote:
Llaaldara wrote:It is important to note that Evil and Good races of TorilMUD live in symbiosis with each other. What happens to one will invariable happen to the other. I’ve already started to note events that lead to the downfall of Evils are already transpiring amongst the Good population as well. It would be wise to address and resolve the situation as a whole.

I have no suggestions at this time. At one point I had tried desperately to turn things around, but you can’t help those who don’t want to be helped and/or choose not to get involved.


what events would those be.


Similar events:

-Evils once had many different associations, and some of these often competed with eachother, often snatching players from smaller associatoins to fill necessary group slots.
-Eventually as player numbers decreased, it came down to 2 guilds dominating (CC & OD, and then later it became MO & OD). Evil race players from other places outside the 2 guilds, often from now defunt assocations, would be absorbed into the 2 guilds, usually because these players wanted to 'do something' and their current guilds didn't allow this to happen (inactivity, etc).
-During this period, some players would be excluded from the induction to the current dominating two assocations, and because of that, some members of the 2 dominiating assocations would be unhappy about this. The result was a new organization designed at helping players like themselves who felt excluded and wished to do something to help newer/less experienced players like themselves from being excluded, ala Saviors of Darkness.

(This is where I see Goodies at now, more or less. Oblivion is effectively the goodie version of Saviors. Oblivion, that is not meant as an insult, but a compliment. I admired Saviors intent, as I admire your own.)

-Eventually one of the 2 main associations became defunt (OD in this case), resulting in one that dominated (MO), and the third (Saviors) slowly withered away (having never acquired many members and since they cater to 'new' players, and we don't get many 'new' players here on Toril, it dwindled away).
-Now Evils have 1 active guild (MO), active in comparison to the other existing evilrace guilds, that seeks to absorb as many active Evilrace players as possible to maintain its' existence. Even to the point of asking for the association player limit be extended to include more players.

Way I see it, it's only a matter of time before we see the Goodie version of MO. It could be SoI, Scions, or another guild entirely. Who knows? But the way the events are so similarly transpiring, it's obvious that with enough time Goodies will only have 1 active and dominating guild as well.

*shrug*


-=-=-=-

Now as for what I said about people not wanting to get involved.

Yes I mean staff. Have you ever seen some kinda Evilrace Player run event sponsored by the staff directed at addressing the problem of lowering numbers?
Yes I mean Evilrace players, and I specifically mean the majority of Evilrace players who don't give a crap about their numbers dwindling. (Yes there are exceptions like Targsk/Yasden and Zoom/Jaznolg who DO things and support others who do things, but I said 'majority'). This thread is a direct reflection of the problem of lack of evil participation. How many evils are posting in this thread compared to goodies right now? Look for yourself. As it was 2 years ago is as it is today, goodies care MORE about the evilrace problem then evilrace players do. I'm not kidding. From my direct experience, most evilrace players would rather go goodie, spend their time playing a different mud, or doing a few bitch posts on the BBS and then still leaving Evils/MUD, instead of actively sponsoring or creating events to promote Evilrace/MUD numbers or working to resolve the problems they had issues with.

When I used to do the EVILS Ezine (you just knew I was going to mention this too), 9/10 people who helped were goodies. Back then I was even trying to set up events that would reward excellent evilrace player behavior, and therefore promote player numbers. You know how many people I got among evils to help out? Zero. I had asked time and time again, both on BBS and MUD for help. I stopped doing it because no one wanted to help out with it, or even keep to their word.

So yes, I firmly believe you can't help people who don't want to be helped, because they just want to let 'someone' else do it/take care of it. Well when that 'someone' is 'no one' this is what you get...

No one.

I'm glad that there is atleast some interest in addressing this problem, and admire that in you all, but I can't help but feel like Queen Amidala from Star Wars Episode 1 addressing the senate "I was not elected to watch my people suffer and die while you debate this in a commity. If this body is not capable of action, then I suggest new leadership." Only.. think of that scene taking place after the driod army has already killed everyone on the planet, and now it looks like Arakis from Dune. :P
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Postby Latreg » Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:29 pm

Ok, if evils are going to be "fixed" (and some really need it, you know what I mean ;) ) then it will take a commitment from the staff as well as the evil players. No sense in staffers taking time to change things only to find people aren't going to play anyway. What I mean by commintment is to make this a priority. If we can agree with this then we can toss out ideas to be addressed. If the powers that be feel no changes are needed for whatever reason then we are just wasting bbs space.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:25 am

yes its invariable that guilds will merge and 1 dominate one will emerge as player base drops off. yes even sides will disappear and evils who never thought they would ever play goody forsake evils. this is obvious.

so i guess its not a question of how to save the evil races. its a question of how to attract and retain new players.
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Postby saeryf » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:02 am

allow me to be heretical here... but attempt to answer Kiryan as succinctly as possible:

1) remove dayblind - make ultra the reverse of infra
- see exits, everything is "shadowed" or "glared" in sunlight

note: I *LOVE* questing... don't mind the traveling... refuse to WASTE half my mud time (limited to *maybe* a couple hours a nite - if that) when other more forgiving options are available JUST FOR WALKING.

2) up value of quest rewards overall, make higher eschelon quests burn prestige but allow prestige to be restored via "boss mob" kills in zones
- will reduce influx of quest items via twink/utility chars, disallow players to sit on their laurels and just make commission off of turning quest tricks for other players, and improve purpose of zoning for other-than-eq purposes. Non-eq'd boss mob (ie zone already done)? No prestige. Will encourage broader zone selection. Mid-sized groups might also consider the prestige a greater reward than DS/ZK xp in the long run too... thereby putting them back into a zone instead of "relatively safe" xp land.

3) Fix low to mid-level zones: BGR (pretty sure i have the most quests completed of anyone on mud there - still appears incomplete), the non-eq'd/seemingly quest ready but not implemented zone just NE of VT, etc.

4) Add/modify/fix/implement Homelands quests... WD dumps seems *RIPE* and to some extent 1/2 there (eq-wise)... but no quests. I am sure several other zones are that way too... like the other one south off western BGR

5) Mod encounters and rare spawns...
- change stats, update encounters, mod rares... make the mud something to learn again... currently, the 80/20 rule is worse than ever...

20% of population holds 80% of the eq on the mud (likely rightfully so, due to time committed - but that does nothing to encourage them to do anything different than status quo and just plevel alts in DS again with different/new eq due to hitting last class' "glass ceiling")

<20% population has enough time to be on "waiting for reboot" which translates into increased rare chances for ALL zones save GC but even then is a "more or less" greater oppotunity scenario
- make ALL rares load over time
- NONE at boot save for invasions or other complicated loads that might otherwise interfere with standard play or otherwise make implementation significantly more difficult

6) [MOST HERETICAL] PWIPE
- after implementation of above... severely increase trophy penalties and reduce xp requirements. REWARD ZONING (which generally translates into greater number of mob types). Make ALL quests which require prestige provide XP. Remove XP reductions/bonuses from zones and/or specific mobs. Someone wants to go terrorize the buffs outside WD for 1/4 of a level - FINE! trophy *should* be severe enough to move them around. Then pwipe and make exploration, zoning, levelling, and questing fun again. The game need not revolve around lv50 eq-hording. It will require work... but work that will likely make the game more entertaining overall for the evergrowing "casual mudder" pbase and give the mud more opportunity to assimilate them into the Toril culture prior to their departure.

OK... so not so succinct... but i have spoken my peace...

~saeryf

PS: after ranting, rereading my own post, and reconsidering the thread... I have to say I *believe* that despite this working for the mud as whole... that it _will_ increase the evil pbase and if many of the race restrictions are removed from most of the evil/goodie-only eq except in cases it mandates appropriate RACE-SPECIFIC flags and !evilrace is easier than !troll, !ogre, !squid, !orc, !drow, etc... then commerce will once again encourage players to explore both sides of the equation.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:29 am

hehe dayblind didnt kill the evil side

Age/growing up/real life took over ...

Back three and four years ago, if you couldnt run BG-DK dayblind, you were nothing

these days where there are so many classes that can *fix* dayblind, the older evils grew up and now have real lives .. the newer, younger generation complains that it is too hard when it has gotten so easy ...

Back in the day the evil attitude ROCKED! If you were a whining, complaining, lack of skilled nothing, you sat in DK or did the small zones with the other sitters .. or you were taken along a few times til your complaining got the best of your entire group and people refused to group with you :P

we can't look at player attitude for the decline in the evil race .. we need to focus our sights on ways to improve it

I like the idea of immort sponsored events ... what about dusting off ICQ and AIL list and do a get-to-gether? I also don't think another long, drawn out campaign is the answer ...

and why did noone address Corth's idea? It was MORE than valid ... we lost a LOT of Euros to that period when they couldnt log on ...

As a matter of fact, some of the older evils are back, they just join their friends, the folks they KNOW they can trust on the goodie side ..
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Postby Ambar » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:34 am

As an aside .. with a dwindling pbase, a wipe would kill off the mud :P

As a newer player you may not know the YEARS some folks have put into their characters and EQ sets (HOW long was Erlan's broken?).. and the older folks would NEVER come back if there was a wipe...

It has been said many times over ... if YOU personally want a wipe .. use that delete function .. and dont store all your eq and just SAY you did it :P

I had another point too and can't remember .. too early :(
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Postby Jaeth » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:04 am

My 2 cents:

One solution would be to allow one active goodie guild to re-roll as evil-race equivalents. It's not enough for goodies to roll evil alts because, when it comes down to zoning, they'll more likely play their good-race character as it's a lot easier to form a group.

When a whole guild's primary characters has changed to the evil-side, it'll mean they will be a bunch of active, zonable evil PCs who are playing their primary character.

So:

1/ get acknowledgement from staff that there is a significant imbalance.

2/ allow 1 goodie guild to re-roll as evil-race equivalent

3/ there must be at least 20 PCs with at least 30 days ptime each for it to happen

4/ all eq is transferred. No substitutions made for alignment restrictions

5/ level set to 46? to encourage them to exp with existing evils, and get used to playing an evil-race character

6/ give them the first guild-hall in prime location of their choice. Assuming there are different sizes of guild-halls, give them an intermediate one, maybe with some unique feature

7/ no special stat, eq changes. Maybe give them guild badges or a re-string

8/ prioritise incoming HL zones to UD/UD-related zones so they have best chance of doing them


This is meant as a challenge to those goodies who are bored, or think they have the game 'beat'.

It does not give them any special eq/stats over existing evils or goodies.

Just a thought.
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Postby Jaeth » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:04 am

My 2 cents:

One solution would be to allow one active goodie guild to re-roll as evil-race equivalents. It's not enough for goodies to roll evil alts because, when it comes down to zoning, they'll more likely play their good-race character as it's a lot easier to form a group.

When a whole guild's primary characters has changed to the evil-side, it'll mean they will be a bunch of active, zonable evil PCs who are playing their primary character.

So:

1/ get acknowledgement from staff that there is a significant imbalance.

2/ allow 1 goodie guild to re-roll as evil-race equivalent

3/ there must be at least 20 PCs with at least 30 days ptime each for it to happen

4/ all eq is transferred. No substitutions made for alignment restrictions

5/ level set to 46? to encourage them to exp with existing evils, and get used to playing an evil-race character

6/ give them the first guild-hall in prime location of their choice. Assuming there are different sizes of guild-halls, give them an intermediate one, maybe with some unique feature

7/ no special stat, eq changes. Maybe give them guild badges or a re-string

8/ prioritise incoming HL zones to UD/UD-related zones so they have best chance of doing them


This is meant as a challenge to those goodies who are bored, or think they have the game 'beat'.

It does not give them any special eq/stats over existing evils or goodies.

Just a thought.
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Postby Demuladon » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:32 am

27th January 2003

< 166h/166H 140v/140V > who sort evilrace
Listing of the Staff
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
<None>

There are 0 visible staff member(s) on.

Listing of the Mortals!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[50 War] Cuza - Warmonger - Blood Raiders (Troll)
[50 Rog] Nilan ShadowStalker - Velg'larn - Orbdrin D'oloth (Drow Elf) (RP)
[50 Ill] Ssissu (Yuan-Ti)
[50 Lic] Dezzex - Qu'el faeruk - Orbdrin D'oloth (Drow Elf)
[50 Sha] Lurgo -=Leviathan=- Crimson Coalition (Ogre)
[50 Sha] Ambar - Beloved Matron - Crimson Coalition (Ogre) (RP)
[50 Psi] Xisiqomelir -Aedileator- Crimson Coalition (Illithid)
[50 War] Turg - Legend - Crimson Coalition (Troll)
[50 Inv] Jaznolg Zra'Taeriz, Destroyer of Worlds (Drow Elf) (RP)
[50 Cle] Ellana - Orbdrin D'oloth (Drow Elf)
[50 Lic] Sszantiel - L' Xsa'us - Orbdrin D'oloth (Yuan-Ti) (RP)
[50 Lic] Todrael Azz'miala -Ravager- Crimson Coalition (Drow Elf)
[50 War] Turxx Krush Skul Maker of Mayhem Blood Raiders (Troll) (RP)
[49 Ill] Kirrus (Yuan-Ti)

[RETURN for more, q to quit]
[48 Dir] Nolot Ligz-R Highat Blood Raiders (Orc) (RP)
[48 Cle] Ssassin (Yuan-Ti) (RP)
[47 Lic] Llaaldara (Drow Elf)
[45 Ele] Rulukoken (Duergar)
[43 Cle] Kazad (Drow Elf) (RP)
[41 Rog] Messas (Yuan-Ti) (RP)
[35 Sha] Mumbra (Ogre) (AFK) (RP)
[33 Enc] Kesena (Drow Elf)
[30 War] Mangam (Ogre)
[27 Sha] Mertak Mystic Wanderer Blood Raiders (Orc) (RP)
[26 Enc] Kirzol (Drow Elf)
[25 Nec] Lugac (Drow Elf)
[23 Inv] Upad (Drow Elf)
[22 Cle] Brogdagorripor (Duergar)
[21 War] Jaangh (Troll) (RP)
[15 Inv] Feezuu (Drow Elf)
[14 Cle] Enzed (Drow Elf)
[ 8 Psi] Zanixixol (Illithid)
[ 7 War] Matone (Drow Elf)
[ 4 Rog] Tehaz (Drow Elf)

There are 34 mortal(s) on.

[RETURN for more, q to quit]

Total visible players: 34.
Record number of players on this boot: 135.
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Postby Demuladon » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:46 am

A few points, no blame here just what I noticed :

-evils took a hit when Crimson's stopped dropping in
-evils took a hit when the equip changes went in late 2003
-evils took a hit when Blood Raiders moved to Homeland
-evils got a boost when humans were allowed to group
-evils took a hit when 80% of Gruffs left

Hats off to Targsk and Jaz for keeping evils alive as long as they have.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:18 pm

Lately when I've done a who in the evenings, more often than not the evil side has had approximately 1/3 the population of the goodie side. Is that really so much more imbalanced than it used to be? If it's not, then perhaps the bigger picture should be taken into account.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

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Postby Ruxur » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:49 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Lately when I've done a who in the evenings, more often than not the evil side has had approximately 1/3 the population of the goodie side. Is that really so much more imbalanced than it used to be? If it's not, then perhaps the bigger picture should be taken into account.



Yes Ashiwi it is in fact that bad. With you not playing evil you do not notice it as much, but i assure you it is very difficult to form for an evil zone.

the standard procedure is to group who you can, and wait for others to login. Sometimes this takes 2-3 hours to find a group capable of zoning. The idea behind this type of recruitment is that if you make it known that there is something to do when people login, they stay. Otherwise they pop in, say bleh nothing going on here, rent.
Cofen group-says 'wtf, why am i missing a cursed khanjari?'
Alendar group-says 'i r rednek i can only afford the monitor i have mud on and the broken monitor under it'
Nonox tells you 'i think someone casted 'power word gay' on pril'
Malacar ASSOC:: 'must... mp...soon...underwear...cringing...at...oncoming...onslaught...'
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:27 pm

I didn't ask if it was that bad, I asked if it was that imbalanced compared to what it used to be... in numbers. The entire pbase has dropped and the good/evil numbers are showing a fair ratio of good to evil, considering how they've always had fewer numbers. If the pbase keeps declining, it only follows logic that the evil pbase would die off first.

Big picture.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

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