Low Player Base (IMO & Long)

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Botef
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Low Player Base (IMO & Long)

Postby Botef » Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:18 pm

BEWARE- I really went a little overboard on this one, Im longwinded-sorry!
This is all my opinion btw, so take it as such.

As many have said in the Evil-Defunct thread, evils are dying because
of our overall declining Pbase - not because of something wrong specifically related to evils.
This isnt a new idea, I recall Savras saying something to that affect in response to Ruagh's thread about this VERY topic I believe a couple years ago.

Our player base is low IMO because:


Reason A:

Most of our players historically tend to be from the 17-30 age range. These are generally people who
are in school or working jobs that allow for often obscene amounts of playing time. As our current
player base has aged, we've lost many of those types to the real world of life - but our influx of new
players has not picked up enough to make up for our loses.

My personal thought on this is that new players today often lack the same technical or logic
line of thinking many of us older players have. Think back to when you first used a computer,
how many of us started using DOS or a similar style system where commands had to be entered to
complete tasks.

Fast forward to today, and many of are youths come out of High School with no understanding of how
these older systems work, but a whole new understanding of how to interact with visual systems.
So in essence, many of our true, new players (As in no prior experience mudding - often the best
kind because they pick & stick with one mud for a long time) don't have the level of logic
many older players do. This makes learning a game like this exceedingly difficult - but to us, its easy.

For us, its simple. Enter a logical command get a logical response. For them, thats not the case,
and we lose many of these people for that reason. However, given a new unfamiliar 3D game, and they
know the logic required to opperate such. They know what WASD means, how to select a video driver,
how to congifure a keyboard.

To further this issue, 3D multiplayer games have advanced to levels that allow the near endless
amounts of detail and enviorments that make MUD's so unique. Games like World of Warcraft suck
up the types of people that once saw the complexity and endlessness in MUDs.

Reason B:

Our mud is feature lacking compared to many of the MUDs that exist today. I personally don't look
at this as a bad thing, I think too many features distract from the true enjoyment of playing, but
thats one opinion vs. many and I still see a need for 'new' features. Our other source of players are people who have experience with other muds and are looking for a new home. These people are not newbs in terms of logic or how muds work, but they also come with a certain expectance of us in terms of what they want from the Toril experience.

Further more, many people new to Toril with previous experience create a character, play till they learn
the general concepts and realize that this MUD doesnt really kick-off till your zoneable. For many,
this is a huge turn off. They see any progression beyond XP till that point as a negative - thus the ones
who do stay are 50 - and clueless on how to travel. Many of you complain about these new players being
negative. As our mid-range playerbase decreases, this problem grows because of the lack of people to group, explore, level, learn.

With a mid-range player base composed primarily of other, established players alts - XP is the top priority.
So next time you encounter a new player with your alt, suggest exploration, go along with them to your death
even if you know their about to walk in on something nasty, let them experience things. What
really makes this mud fun? Mindless xp or chatoic situations were you come out on top...?

From what I've seen, we lose a lot of players like this. I've looked at and played a number of other
MUDs, and from what I've seen these are some of the 'hot' features that really attract, and keep
players.

An Economic System that offers players the chance to have a level of 'power' beyond physical ability

-On most muds I've seen, its roaming merchants trading, selling and buying mid-high end items. Plat
sinks like houses and land. It's the ability to purchase shops, modify prices (slightly) and earn
an additional income from it. The ability to squelch other players profits, impose taxes, segregate
and annoy or offer benefits and releifs, send mobs to disrupt other shops buisness, land. Cause trouble!

Guildhalls will be a huge step in this direction, and I hope that with the integration of OLC into
this mud we can see other concepts be put in place.

Player Killing - something broader than arena

-Just the other day we had an obviously experienced mudder on NHC asked pointed questions about
creating a character. When they asked about playerkill to find nothing beyond arena existed,
he simply said "Nice mud, but I need playerkill" and logged. How many times have I seen this before...
Simply allowing playerkill isnt the anwser, but in the interest of drawing new players something
could be initiated to allow an outlet more functional than Arena is.

Perhaps a tog-able option, or a choice at character creation. Something that allows playerkilling
under a wider array of circumstances. The most obvious issue I can see with this is our mud is EQ
based, and isnt supportive of an enviorment where EQ is easily lost, but thats something that could
be controlled easy enough. Include balances so people can't mindlessly slay without consequence.


In my opinion these following ideas would do wonders for this mud from what I've seen on other muds that
have these features already.

Guildhalls
The ability to buy, build, operate - houses, shops, land, small zonets!

Wandering, global, economic features - ala merchants who buy high-end items at decent prices, sell those
same items, trade, barter, offer quests - load only once a RL year, etc! Quests for 'stuff' 'people'
or 'furnishings' for the above. You wouldn't believe the commotion Gemstone would see on days when a rare (As in once or twice a RL year) merchant would load and roam around - and how many nice items would be bought and sold.

The ability for players to 'stash' things in places other then storage, and the ability for other players
to find them. i.e. a system for creating & storing items that DO NOT poof when left somewhere in the mud
during a crash/reboot. i.e. a chest you can lock, bury or stash somewhere that will be there when you
return - unless someone else finds it!

Player-killing options even if its very limited - Be it specific zones (Maybe group vs group), a tog-able option, a character creation option, something beyond arena. Bounties, justice, global hunter groups specific to players, etc. Outcasting in your own home town for ANY race that gets in too deep...Further more, JAIL! One of my favorite MUDS of all time had an enire Jail zone that required you to dedicate player time to being in jail for a crime, doing tasks to reduce your sentance, getting introuble and increasing it,
exploring, xping, questing stuff only possible in jail, etc. Court trials based on legal ability or - the
ability to appoint other players as a 'lawyer' type. Also, player corpses result from PK could have 'heads'
or a tangiable item to prove that player was indeed killed - Bounties, etc.

(Something would need to be done interms of togging the ability to be reloable, etc)

Professions - The ability to select and persue proffessions or aditional skill sets, however trivial they may be. Limit these so no player can have them all. Things like merchant skills (lowered prices), legal skills (lowering/squashing jail time), craft skills, etc.

MUD-Controlled 'mini-guilds'(Harpers, etc) - Essentially long, open-ended quests in which the player assumes the guild's title -AS WELL AS ALL THE NEGATIVES ala mobs that have outright hate for you- and try to
complete tasks, quests, etc for your 'guild'. Gods could then set one guild against another, integrate
with limited PK, economics, etc. Ability to gain rank, achieve, become a leader of other players & mobs,
etc.

Kingdom Code - And in addition, the ability to 'quest' both economically and with items, a position of power
in places such as hometowns. Granted special access, monetary functions, and controls over limited features. In addition accept the consequences of global-wide hate from mob types, races, etc due to your
'celebrity' like status.

God-Run features - Doesnt have to be quests for eq, or anything that could benefit one player over another simply due to the god's decision. I mean more along the lines of home-town invasions, god controlled bounty hunters, etc. Sometimes it really does wonders to be able to log in an go "Hmm, I wonder
what has occured today in my hometown - oh look, this mob is offering a bounty on this person, and our out of town tax is increased and, oh my were being invaded by friggan undeads - time to leave town and spend awhile in BG." See how long people stick around AFK for days on end when there is a chance to get stomped by invasion forces. See how long people stay in the same place when its in their best interest to leave for another, safer venue. This would most ceratainly require the creation of another Immortal Sphere for
running these types of things, but it could be a lot of fun - and totaly integrate into a more immersive RP setting - one that doesnt require setting a time, or checking RP news for the next 'event'.

How cool would it be for the evil races to spend weeks working to quest some Lich to lead an invasion on WD with his undead minions, and then watch as goodies spent their time defending WD, helping people escape to somewhere safer like BG, and then hunting down the culprit lich to stop the invasion...Race wars anyone? Without PKill no less.

Anyways, I've been typing and blabbing for far to long, for those that actully took the time to read this - congrats - I probably wouldn't have wanted to read so much crap.

Just some insights from a old mudding newb.


Botef
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Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:54 pm

some additional thoughts:

1. as our pbase ages we stop moving in the same circles as potential players. when we were mostly college aged, our college aged friends were ideal mud candidates. now that were older, its hard to say hey jon my 35 year old coworker / church buddy, let me show you this cool text based game that i play 40 hours a week while neglecting my wife and kids....

2. so you show your friend the mud and beyond your wildest hopes they are interested in playing. as if picking out a class and rolling a char and learning how to read text scrolling by at 15 lines a second wasn't tough enough, now you have to teach them how to download zmud, write triggers ect...

We might want to work on something that allows people to do an installation and get jacked into the game quickly. Does everquest make you download a 3rd party client then write scripts to begin playing effectively? Things like stand triggers, spell out triggers, group hp triggers are staple. Why dont we either make it easier for people to install and play or write this stuff into the mud directly.

3. I think teyaha brought this up originally and i thought he was trying to make the game too easy, but I am seeing the logic in it more and more.

Why do we make people roll characters? we want them to get into the game and start playing as soon as possible and yes the auto roller generates great chars in amazingly quick time periods, however, many people cant make a choice unless they understand what they are choosing. You roll 8 stats, really... how does a new person know whether its good or not?

I would strongly consider revamping the character roller (again) to get people into the game faster (ie less to no rolling, and no possibility of creating a char that is fundamentally flawed like a warrior who doesnt have his last con and agility notch) a lot less reading.

I would also consider reworking +stat/+max stat system to make it possible to reach perfect stats without having a character that was rolled perfectly without impacting the eq that they wear. for instance, if you could quest charms that arent worn that would raise your stats it wouldnt matter what you rolled you could have a "perfect" character with additional effort after rolling after your hooked. A "meta" system where you trade exp for +stats (up to 100). Yes this would result in every char being super powered best stats, but the important thing is that no one would feel like they had a sub standard character that is "unfixable". You can argue that with eq you can fix any character, and while this is true, isn't a char with naturally perfect stats better than one with sucky stats?

making the game easier, yes i suppose it does. but who benefits when I am off rolling several million characters (at a rate of about 14k per hour) in order to get lucky enough to hit a jackpot char with 4 perfects, 3 perfect mighty fair? I am not able to play/interact with other players (which is the lifeblood of the game)... Choice isn't always good. Make us choose whats best for the game.
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Postby Botef » Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:09 pm

kiryan wrote:some additional thoughts:

1. as our pbase ages we stop moving in the same circles as potential players. when we were mostly college aged, our college aged friends were ideal mud candidates. now that were older, its hard to say hey jon my 35 year old coworker / church buddy, let me show you this cool text based game that i play 40 hours a week while neglecting my wife and kids....

2. so you show your friend the mud and beyond your wildest hopes they are interested in playing. as if picking out a class and rolling a char and learning how to read text scrolling by at 15 lines a second wasn't tough enough, now you have to teach them how to download zmud, write triggers ect...

We might want to work on something that allows people to do an installation and get jacked into the game quickly. Does everquest make you download a 3rd party client then write scripts to begin playing effectively? Things like stand triggers, spell out triggers, group hp triggers are staple. Why dont we either make it easier for people to install and play or write this stuff into the mud directly.

3. I think teyaha brought this up originally and i thought he was trying to make the game too easy, but I am seeing the logic in it more and more.



When I stopped playing Gemstone, they already had a player-side client that not only had built in things like fumble recovery, but a position-status graphic (Showes if you were standing, siting, wielding a weapon, etc) as well as other 'graphical' displays like HPs, Mana, etc. One of their strongest features imo -short of having paid staff.

I also believe that Zuggsoft now has their own, adapted client for Gemstone and other Simutronic MUDs...

I personally like rolling a character - but something could be done to address the difficulty new players have...Lots and lots of new players list their stats on NHC and end up rolling, and rerolling, and rerolling till the NHC helpers approve of their stats.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:17 pm

Well Kiryan, i agree fundamentally. But the reason we have a roller here as i understand it, is for variety. Some people still like playing with a hardship and arent "power gamers". The MUD as a whole is a dying breed. It used to
be that this was the only way you could play a multi-user game. Technology has changed, and provided options that are much more desireable. For most.
There are those of us that this system made such an impact on that we come
back again and again (or some of us never leave).

I don't know that it would be possible to compete for the same players that
are drawn to things like everquest and world of warcraft. Its kind of like
trying to sell a black and white TV in a technicolor world.

Only those with wide imagination tend to be drawn to this medium. Those
highly involved in books, etc. Those who prefer to read the material, and
come up with the pictures themselves. People like that seem to be a dying
breed.

Thus i don't think its a lack of options on the mud, but a change in the
demands of the world around us.
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Postby Vaprak » Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:21 pm

One of my warrior PCs needed 2 con notches to max back on Sojourn. I had more fun with that character than nearly any other one I've played over the years. And yes I was a power player in a powerful guild and I still had 50+ damroll and 800hps !vit while needing to wear over 20 points of +con gear. At least my gear set didn't look like the cookie cutter sets that everyone wears now.

I do like the idea of an express roller for newbies though. If they could just pick a race/class and everything else was done for them including picking the most commonly used hometown. I don't really care for the idea that we need to make every character's stats even better than the rediculously high stats that the roller is already spewing out. I recall a time when it was actually somewhat rare and also very covetted to have good stats. Now everyone has them. Yeah. So to quote a nifty movie that both me and my son enjoy: Syndrome: “When
everyone’s super, no one will be!”
Vaprak, the Destroyer
-Formerly Tempus of HomelandMUD -- pre-merger
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Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:49 pm

botef

nog something like that might be interesting. even a default script you could download off the bbs would be an incredible help to people just starting out. if we could get zugg to help us or allow us to prepackage a toril script with zmud that would be great.

lets also not forget that we can build in some of the features that players script directly into the mud. condensed, was a great move for more reasons than just bandwidth. As a new player your inundated with text, being able to eliminate some with a simple tog is brilliant. think about other things like why doesn't group show more than just current hps and max hps? why doesnt it show hps lost, scale, reduce, stone, blur?? why don't we implement character definied aliases? why do we have to type stand when bashed? why do we have to do a look when a mob switches to see who is being attacked?

del

i wasnt really promoting comeptition for players, but more of an insight into things other games like EQ do. I dont think everything MMORPGS do is great, but there might be some wisdom in some of the stuff they do. When was the last time you had to "roll" a character on a game? The pool of radiance group of games was probably the last for me. Why does every mmorpg have tradeskills?

vap

i agree with a lot of what you say. sok had a 54 con and had to wear some interesting eq to get to his notch. it was quite challenging for him in one sense and playing skills definitely make more of a difference than a high end vs elite set of gear, but its just wierd that we would encourage players to spend as much time rolling their characters as actually in the game playing?

I spent more time rolling my ranger han i did leveling him to 50. it took a long time to get 3 perfects and a 98 but because its possible i wouldnt take a sub optimal character (especially one that needs every advantage it can get). If i coudlve fixed my char in game with some other method like meta stats for exp, i probably woudlve spent 15 minutes rolling and 40 hours playing the game to making my stats perfect.
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Postby Sylvos » Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:01 am

I know that I'm faced with a few stat deficiencies on sylvos. I'm 5 points shy of my top con notch, 11 points down on my full strength notch and... 6? points down on my full dex.

As a result I'm down some from what my full damage could be, I have equipment that looks ugly or just plain doesn't match. But I seem to manage alright. Giving new players the option of a template with decent stats but not top-notch would be handy, it lets them get into the game. Offering a standard package of triggers - weapon recovery, auto stand when bashed, auto-stand when memmed come to mind foremost, would smooth out the initial transition.

Possibly some txt files downloadable in various client formats, with instructions on how to import them?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun May 01, 2005 11:51 am

Sylvos wrote:Offering a standard package of triggers - weapon recovery, auto stand when bashed, auto-stand when memmed come to mind foremost, would smooth out the initial transition.

Possibly some txt files downloadable in various client formats, with instructions on how to import them?


Another suggestion would be to code these into the game, allowing toggle on these features. Lag often detracts from client side-triggers, from day to day, consistancy would be a nice thing to add.
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re:

Postby Zakissus » Mon May 02, 2005 4:05 pm

Ya know, just a thought I had while reading this thread...in regards to cookie-cutter eq sets and whatnot:

I know restrings and such as rare and a hassle and all that fun stuff. But they would definately increase interest in eq, and uniqueness. Sure, everyone might be wearing the same eq, but at least everyone will look different.

But, restrings are a hassle and to work well would require alot of some gods time (I think it should be governed by a god with good fantasy sense to actually come up with the item descrips and NOT a player).

How about eq loading though? How hard would it be (I dont know the code so just asking) to instead of Armor A being a random load on a mob to have Armor A, Armor B, Armor C, Armor D be the random loads, with each one identical except for the item descrip? Would add flavor at least. Then periodically go thru and just change those item names....again not sure if thats feasible. If its just time required Im sure someone out there has the time or would volunteer for it. Make it so ya do 5-10 changes a week or something, just rotate thru, eventually there will be a ton of "different" items in the game, even if the stats are the same. Just an idea....
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Postby Botef » Mon May 02, 2005 8:38 pm

Zakissus:

I agree on cookie cutter eq sets, and the fact that most people wear more or less the same gear in the high-end game, however I dont like the idea of flooding the MUD with eq in that manner mainly because you will end up with a lot of crappy names/ansi/out of theme stuff pouring out from one area.

Duris seems to have lots of out of place or just plain silly looking eq, never liked that. On the same token, Im all for the idea of Uniques in this game provided that the Unique item is harder to aquire then the regular stringed version (NOT JUST RARE). For example, Mob A has Sword A. Sometimes Mob A loads with additional mobs backing it up and Sword A becomes Sword B, same stats - different (although similar) name.

The problem with just having random uniques ala Diablo 2 is Uniques with nothing but a name difference will have varying value based
on how 'cool' the name is. Id rather see item names/ansi designs saved for eq thats actully different then have a bunch of different names for the same sword. If the Uniques had altered stats, could be kinda cool in terms of not knowing what you will come out with - but again would require too many item names/ansi - Items could not have the same name, but different stats, that just wouldn't be right IMO.

---

I also wanted to denote that when I talk about adding Pkill to Toril being a wise move I DO NOT mean the kind of Pkill exhibited on Duris. I am totally against muds that support and encourage mindless killing and boast kill counts and offer rewards to the best PvP.

I'm talking more about the ability to kill another player, but at the cost of being persecuted, pestered, tracked down, and slayed for the crime. Basically a system in which player killing is discouraged except for competition/RP/occasional mishaps. One in which you don't have to worry 'much' about walking from one place to another, where your eq is generally safe from being stolen, and where getting revenger can be accomplished through means other then killing them back.

I think a lot of people make the assumption that any mention of PKill means the type of mindless slaying I see on some muds. I'm more in favor of a PKill system ala Gemstone, where its a rarity and not something that occurs very often.
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Postby Vegtam » Tue May 03, 2005 3:21 am

I am a relative newbie to the game here and am amazed at how many people are on at different times. yet the mud is unbelievably quiet it seems. The other turn off is how difficult and frustrating exploring can be. So I'm level 15 that means I know where the temple w/ the orcs and the priest of bane are. Great I kill them over and over and over and over again and finally get to my next level. I look and look and look and find only stuff that cons as easy and doesn't help my xp move.
These are some of the turn-offs I see, but the mud has more players then some of the other ones I am on. Maybe its just hard to break in and become one of the gang.
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Postby Eilorn » Sat May 07, 2005 5:15 am

Regarding restrings:

How about having a 'blacksmith' mob (Tzxvu? :-) that you give an item to, and the payment (token, money, quest item, whatever), tell them the new description (with appropriate ansi codes), and they say "It'll take me a couple months to gather the material I'll need, and rework this item. Come back then." The code then emails an administrator, and they approve/disapprove the item. This gives the staff a couple days to get to things. Approval means that when you go back to the mob, after a couple mud months (2 days?) the mob will give you the restrung item. If disapproved, you'll receive a mud mail indicating that, and you'll go to the mob, to hear "Hmm... it's taking me a little longer than I expected to rework this. Do you have any changes you want made?" And you give him a new description. Rinse, repeat as necessary.

I'd REALLY like to see restrings be more common.

Eilorn.
Now, we can do this the hard way, or... well, actually there's just the hard way.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Mon May 09, 2005 3:37 pm

kiryan wrote:1. as our pbase ages we stop moving in the same circles as potential players. when we were mostly college aged, our college aged friends were ideal mud candidates. now that were older, its hard to say hey jon my 35 year old coworker / church buddy, let me show you this cool text based game that i play 40 hours a week while neglecting my wife and kids....


Let's just neglect our grades :x tuition costs boo.
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Postby flib » Mon May 09, 2005 11:44 pm

there needs to be something seriously done whatever it may be to get people to notice toril again.. not too big into pk that's just me but the quest ideas were really cool. I don't know I've always been one to think we should reinstate artifacts. I remember being a lil newb guh.. that was like 8-9 years ago heh.. and seeing the message 'someones doombringer sword of chaos hums or whatever. I wanted to play the mud because there were items that cool in it.. like stuff to lust after and dream about I doubt anyone will even take this seriously but I know how much of an impact it had on me. it got me wanting to play the game.
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Postby sok » Tue May 10, 2005 1:09 am

to quote a hungry man "i will gladly pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today".

why worry about tuition when school loans can be paid off when u get out. if u never get our u never have to pay. just more reason to keep mudding and not finish school.
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Postby agreiver » Wed May 11, 2005 4:47 pm

I know I haven't played in a while, but to me, it's all about the pwipes and leveling up. The problem is when no pwipe happens for a few years, the mud gets boring because everybody is level 50 and has every piece of eq they could possibly ever want. The top guys have storage characters with tons of the best gear, and the mud just gets flooded with the stuff, and it's appreciated less.

IMO the mud is more fun after a wipe, because even though you lose everything you work for, it begins the fun over again. Yeah its cool to have 10 lightning earrings and every possible item, but it's not really that fun. It's fun striving for stuff. It's fun doing those mid level zones that are challenging and fun at the time. When everyone is level 50, 2/3s of the mud becomes pointless because its too easy and the gear isn't worth it.

Also, like the new guy said, seeing the artifact Doombringer and watching it hum and whoop some butt is pretty impressive. It's less impressive when everyone has a Doombringer except the new people. I realize not everyone has a Doombringer but it's an analogy to whatever the best weapon is these days that everyone has.. or the best caster rings that every caster now has 10 of. The new guys login, they see that almost everyone is a super high level, and they see tons of eq they think is unattainable. They especially must feel this way after putting 20 hours into the mud and their only level 12, and whatever they kill gives them a piece of crap they can go sell for a whole 10 copper.

Also, although I don't play anymore, I did get to lvl 42 this pwipe, and it seemed to me that last year, 95% of the mud was level 46-50, (i imagine its worse now) and these are the guys who have played for a long time and know the deal. They know the zones, they know how to play, and how to level up. The other 5% is level 1-46, new guys, who see the super powered level 50s and think that is something they can never achieve, and they have no clue what it takes to get there.

The reason is theres very few people which are mid level with mid level eq. What happened to all the mid level characters? Even half of the ones you see nowadays are just alternates with awesome high level eq. For me, leveling up was a good part of the fun.. your striving to level up and get the eq you need.. I loved spending 12 hour days in Ice Crag castle just trying to get half a level and maybe put together a small group to get some mid level eq. When you type 'who s', you see people of all levels, not just high levels. It's NOT as much fun being level 50 and breezing through all the hardest zones. It's all about the challenge and the journey. I'd say do a pwipe and then make leveling up to level 50 a lot harder. It needs to be made harder because all the experienced players know exactly what to do, and how to level up fast as hell.

Level 1 guys, new guys, logon and they don't see anyone near their level. Theres nobody to group with, nobody to have fun with. A good portion of the fun of the mud is the social aspect, and you have to ask yourself why would new players stay when nobody is their level, and nobody is grouping with them or helping them out? Yeah theres the newbie channel but thats not much fun. I tried leveling up a new troll warrior recently, and it was a very lonely experience. Back in the day, there would have been others I could group with.. or guys a little higher level than me who would help out. Now it's just all high level chars with existing friends who want nothing to do with new or mid level guys, and they dont need new friends.

The challenge, the roleplaying, ie, the fun, is all about the battles and the zones. And battles can be challenging and fun whether your level 5 killing some orcs, or level 30 doing Ice Crag, or level 40 doing Brass. Being level 50 and having the best eq is an accomplishment.. a good feeling.. but then what do you have to strive for? One more flaming earring? Cmon. The real fun is the journey. Doing things for the first time. Striving to get things you don't have yet.

I recently made a level 1 anonymous paly just for fun, I never said who I was... and before I was logged in 30 minutes, someone had given me a coat of many pockets, a spiked dragon helm, and a bunch of other DECENT, mid level gear. But I didn't appreciate any of it! When I first played the mud, I was DYING for a coat of many pockets at level 20! I wanted one sooo bad, and when I finally got it, it was awesome. OMG a sword of cymrych hugh at level 25, woo hoo! I only had to pay 1500 plat. Now I could probably get all that stuff for free, and before I hit level 10. This reduces the drive to strive for things.. it reduces the challenge.. it reduces the fun... Even noobs can level up fast with this awesome gear.. and theres no challenge.. it just seems to them like it takes hours of non challenging fights to level up, and thats not fun! Leveling up should be challenging and hard, not easy! Thats what makes it fun! Otherwise every level 50 would just be out killing stuff for the fun of it.

After a wipe, zones like Jenna become fun to do. Wow a deco eyepatch! Awesome. How many times does Jenna get done these days? Exactly. That zone and other midlevel zones like it become worthless because theres already 1500 deco eyepatches floating throughout the game. So they become pointless to do. This leaves the high levels to do the same exact zones, day in and day out. It's forced the mud to come up with even more high level zones, instead of making it harder to level up so more mid level zones get done.

In conclusion, I'd say there should be another pwipe. I think they are positive for the mud, and it's proven that players do not leave after one. Then make it harder to level up, so people are reaching level 50 after a year of solid playing, not 3 months. When was the last time the exp tables got updated anyway? IMO the exp tables of 1995 are no longer appropriate for the mud in 2005.

Now picture the months following a pwipe. Now when new people logon, they see characters near their level they can team up with. When their in their teen levels, theres other characters in their teens. New relationships and friendships will form. These new players will stick around to reach level 50 along with everyone else, and they will tell their friends to come join in the fun too. I sincerely think a pwipe is in order, and will make more new guys stick around and learn how to play and enjoy the mud. If your new, and you logon now, the task seems insurmountable.. and even though its NOT, it seems like it is.. and it's a very lonely chore at that.
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Postby Vegtam » Wed May 11, 2005 5:16 pm

Even though I am brand new to the mud I think a pwipe might be nice. Now when I login my level 13 barbarian warrior and the only ones I see are 40+. They aren't going to group w/ someone as low as me.
THe only LFG chats I see are for like level 47 looking to exp. Thats great you are that high, but trust me there are one or two of us that are brand new and don't know there way around jack :)
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed May 11, 2005 5:30 pm

Where i agree the mud has become somewhat stagnant, and that there are a FEW people that have 10 of this and 10 of that, i feel MOST of those
people have grown bored and moved on. I think a pwipe would only
punish those that started some time ago, and have yet to reach level 50,
or yet to do "insert zone here". Not everyone has the same amount of
time available to play. The pbase is thusly divided into those with way too
much time, and those with perhaps too little. Of course you can't cater to
both sides, but wiping would be an injustice to those who don't have the
time to live their dream of having a level 50, or getting to do BC, or...
whatever their dream here may be. The eq/player "scrubber" that was in
old sojourn would be a much better idea. I think you had 1-2 days per
level of your character that you could be absent (no login activity) or else
you would loose your eq and perhaps even the character. Anyone below
level 20 had a set 30 days or something along those lines.

As far as a solution to unappreciated eq being handed out to newbies,
i don't see much of a solution other than the wipe. I myself am guilty
of giving things to newbies, but i find that either they are friends, friends
of friends, or newbies that i take out and give them some tutelage
and as a reward i tend to give something mid-level or below and try
to make it class-appropriate. I cannot say i do it very often, but guilty
as charged.
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Postby Lahgen » Wed May 11, 2005 11:19 pm

Not all Level 50's are the same.

Sure, I have a level 49 bard and a few nice things, and I can afford to occasionally treat a noob to slimy vambraces or a gcd, but I'm nothing compared to the likes of Lilithelle, Klandan, Maxler, Kiryan, or even Sotana.

So, when it's said that a noob comes on and sees all level 50's, it's an errant conclusion that is being implied, because it's because some of us chose easier classes or are just plain good at the game, rather than all of us being leet veterans or something.
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'
Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone
Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'

Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby avak » Thu May 12, 2005 2:45 pm

I would have to agree with much of what agreiver has said, but I don't agree with the solution.

I think a pwipe, at this point anyway, would kill the mud or at least hasten its decline. I believe many of the long-time players when they say they would just move on. I know I probably would too.

It seems to me that we have already identified one of the fundamental problems facing the mud...lack of new players. We've also identified new player retention as a serious issue, but we don't seem to have good solutions.

I am currently getting my brother hooked on the mud. I'll make him post about his thoughts sometime, but for now I can tell you that the first thing he noticed was "everyone's level 50 and there is no one my level to group with." Um, yeah...Scardale is about as lively as MH on Sunday morning. Which is a tragedy because Scardale is really really fun and a new player can really learn a lot there.

Rather than rehash the problems any more than I already have, I'll just throw out the solutions I would suggest.

For one thing, seems like we could have level restrictions on eq. Level 10 alts running around decked out with level 50+ gear is lame. And yeah, my one little alt has better gear than he should and its lame. Not only do decked out alts level past true new players at light speed, they intimidate them and generally ignore them unless it is to give them freebies as a gesture of pity (which is generous, yes). With decked alts, the only goal is reaching a zonable level ASAP...which means finding a group that is mindlessly slaying DS for hours on end...not getting in with a couple new players and wasting time in SSC.

Secondly, if we were to make level restrictions on eq, I think you would seriously have to reassess the exp tables. With true newb gear, leveling is hard. Fun, but hard. I doubt it needs to be quite as hard as it is. No, I am not advocating making it easy, just easier. And fix trophy. That would alleviate many many problems on its own.

Third, guildhalls and other massive plat sinks. Give people and guilds a reason to work on their prime characters, so that we don't have a million alts running around with someone's 5th set of high end gear. Not only that. but it would serve to impress the shit out of new players and give them even more reason to play (as has been cited by many long-time players as a reason for retention).

Fourth, and not really that important but while I'm typing, make the shops in places like WD have a memory past reboots and rational prices. Auction has dealt with much of this problem, but would it be that hard for stores to carry low to mid level eq?

To recap, imo 95% or more of our "problems" would be greatly alleviated if we could figure out how to revitalize the player base. No, new players logging on does not fix melee or put Tia in, but I think it would change the general demeanor of the mud and make it much, much more enjoyable.
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Postby Lahgen » Thu May 12, 2005 3:58 pm

But can newbies overcome the entrenched elite?
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'

Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone

Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'



Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Selias » Thu May 12, 2005 5:24 pm

I agree - Newbie retention is paramount to the mud's future success. I'm hearing a lot of talk about making it easier to level so that people can have "fun" zoning. I think that shifting exp towards 46-50 was a good start in balancing things out, however since most of the mud is now 46-50 no matter how easy you make the exp tables it won't change much.

New players need other players to group with. Exp isn't that hard ifyou have a group doing it with you, but when you have to wait 5mins between each kill to regen your hit points, it gets tedious and boring. Even I feel this way when trying to level up my alt, which is a rogue with the easiest exp table of any class, and I know how to play the game. Just imagine how a new player must feel when they play for 2 hours, die 3x, and log off losing nearly 30% xp instead of gaining some.

Perhaps it's time for a "mentoring" type program. It would work something like this.

High lvl char A mentors low lvl char B. Char A's level is effectivly reduced to char B's level, including skill caps, available spells, etc. (Much like EQ2's method of mentoring). Instead of getting exp for kills, char A will get prestige. Of course this would mean that prestige would need to be useful for something other than trying to get the biggest integer possible on your score sheet. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to change this mud into something that it isn't, but I am trying to find a way for high lvl chars to want to group with low lvl chars. This would also foster player education as the high lvl chars teach the low lvl chars something. Also, both players will be getting a reward, char A gets prestige, char B gets exp and some skillz.

Of course it all relies on prestige being worth something.

As with any ideas there are holes and potential workarounds for abuse. I'm not claiming that it's a fool-proof method, but it might be an idea to build on.

Peace in the Middle East
Selias
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu May 12, 2005 6:29 pm

Lahgen wrote:But can newbies overcome the entrenched elite?


No one's rifting in and purging them.
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"

Gura: ..btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil.
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Postby kiryan » Thu May 12, 2005 11:26 pm

dood im pretty sure i would quit if we pwipe or eq wipe. I have plenty of people tugging on me to go play different games and the reason I dont go play them is I'm not willing to invest the time all over again.

Would a pwipe be fun? sure. would it be challenging and competitive again? yep.

Would it last?

no
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Postby Lahgen » Thu May 12, 2005 11:45 pm

Xisiqomelir wrote:No one's rifting in and purging them.


No, but will they be treated as valuable assets to the mud when they get up to zoning level, or will they be treated like an annoying hindrance just because they are less skilled than the elite, who will in turn be not too gentle in their rebuke?
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'

Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone

Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'



Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Thu May 12, 2005 11:54 pm

I think a way of developing a prime character beyond what we have now is needed. Maybe a way of multiclassing. Maybe a way of acquiring new skills, I don't know. Its gotten to the point where the only thing to do once you are level 50, have good skills, good eq, is to level alts. Fix this problem, THEN work on newbies.

Keep the players we have entertained while we get newbies at the same time.
Aristan group-says 'nurpy=tripod'

Shevarash GCC: 'Tiamat stands here, fighting Nurpy.'
Lahgen
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Postby Lahgen » Fri May 13, 2005 2:19 am

I'd love to multiclass. But then, the imms would have to go and make the zones harder, because god forbid that anything on the mud is EASY.
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'

Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone

Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'



Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
Ambar
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Postby Ambar » Fri May 13, 2005 9:07 am

We have a sort of mentoring program but it's sorta dead.

Noob helpers

Most of us mentor them rather than lead them by the nose, but we sort of have our hands tied. If I am on as my goodie "noob helper" I often lg on my evil "noob helper" to help baby evils ...

Why not give noob helpers access to Scardale but .. o say make it impossible for us to kill mobs so we can't plevel them but we can lead them around a bit .. Can you flag a mob as !kill at a certain level? LIke flag us as helpers, flag the zones as enterable by 20+ with the helper flag, then flag the mobs as !kill if the PC is above lvl 20 ...

This would allow us to overcome the dayblind thing for the noob ultra folks (this is a HUGE stumbling block for those who dont WANT to deal with it) by allowing us to show them the mud in the areas we want them to use ...

I don't know .. just kinda random thoughts at 4:50 AM while I wait for my coffee to brew

-Jennifer

Edit:
A way to make Scardale accessable .. make an item load, a fountain, a signpost, what have you .. and make it enterable with a *touch* by people above 20 but flagged as helpers? I think it would make some kinda impact on new players to have someone flagged as a helper run to my aid whenever possible

who knows .. as I said .. random thoughts .. coffee ready now :)
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Postby Disoputlip » Fri May 13, 2005 1:30 pm

The bestest Idea IMHO is the one where you can set yourself the same level as someone else.

(I personally don't think a level 50 made 19 should be able to recall, use AV etc. It should only be the Thac0, hp spells that should be changed.

Else misuse would be that you become level 1, recall, then get whatever items/plat there are in scardale.

Besides the things that should be done to remove misuse I think its an exelent idea that I would most likely use to level lowbies with my warrior (if ever implemented).
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Postby Ragorn » Fri May 13, 2005 7:23 pm

Earning and retaining new players has always been an interest of mine on Sojourn/Toril. Several times, I've put forth comprehensive packages designed to make the trivial bits of newbie life easier, but so far, we haven't seen any result. So I'm hesitant to post more suggestions, knowing that it is unlikely to produce a result. But, for the sake of something to do on this lazy afternoon, let me put forth a few things.

The hard part of being a newbie isn't that killing mobs is challenging. Mobs, when you engage in combat fully rested and memmed, simply aren't that hard to kill (except for the level 1 grey elf enchanter, but that's another ball of wax). There isn't any great amount of skill involved in killing warriors on BGR... you attack them, and either you're stronger than they are, or you're not. I'll almost say there's no skill at all involved in newbie-level combat. If an Invoker can kill a mob his own level by shooting his most powerful nukes in order, than he can kill that same mob 99 times out of 100, barring ridiculous crits. Combat simply isn't hard.

What's challenging is knowing which mobs you can take, and finding mobs you can handle that are worth good experience. This is almost impossible for a newbie. They don't know the limits of their power, and they don't know where to go to find the best mobs for their level. We help them fix this problem in two ways. The first is to give them equipment with more AC, more stats, and more hit/dam so they can succeed against a wider variety of mobs. The second is to give them directions to goblin cave, SS, BGR, SSC, and the other areas where they can find non-bashing, non-fleeing, non-casting, non-assisting sacks of easy experience.

The problem is that both of these solutions are short-term. The newbie will grow out of goblin cave, SS, BGR, and SSC soon enough. And even if we point them to an endless array of "perfect" exp zones, there comes a time when players simply can't solo mobs worth any decent amount of experience anymore. Then they have to go looking for a group, and let me tell you, the who list is VERY top heavy most of the time. During my last few logons, I would estimate that the 45+ players online comprised 50-80% of the who list. You don't want a MUD where players can solo to 50, but at the same time, it's impossible for a new player to find a Warrior, Cleric, Invoker, Enchanter group at any given hour of the day, because there are only ever 20 or 30 people online in the first 40 levels of the game. And if you're leveling your L25 super-stacked Warrior alt in DC, are you going to want to invite the brand newbie with the rough leather armor to your experience group? Or are you going to want to go to IC with him?

Or are you more likely to give him a Sword of Cymrych Hugh, pat him on the backside, and point him toward Split Shield where he can solo quietly until he gets bored and quits?
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Fri May 13, 2005 9:50 pm

Lahgen wrote:I'd love to multiclass. But then, the imms would have to go and make the zones harder, because god forbid that anything on the mud is EASY.


An easy game is a game that is easy to master. A game that is easy to master is a boring game. A boring game is one that people don't play.

So yes, God PLEASE FORBID, the mud get any easier than it already is.

The whole reason why people don't play as much now anyway is because they have mastered all they can, or all that they have interest in mastering. And whether the current high-end players are happy with the game or not does effect newbie playerbase as well.
Aristan group-says 'nurpy=tripod'

Shevarash GCC: 'Tiamat stands here, fighting Nurpy.'
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Postby Eilorn » Sat May 14, 2005 10:56 pm

Lahgen wrote:I'd love to multiclass. But then, the imms would have to go and make the zones harder, because god forbid that anything on the mud is EASY.

You don't have to change the zones... change the grouping code so that you can have 15 classes, that could be 5 triple classers. I REALLY don't think a zone that required 15 classes would be doable by 5 pcs, but, hey, it'd be a challenge.

I think multi-classing would be a boon in the 20-40 lvl area, though it might hurt the upper game were you NEED a single char behind each class.

Eilorn.
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Postby Vigis » Sun May 15, 2005 8:09 am

IMHO the biggest problem we face is the total lack of interest we show in new players. *NOTE* This is a generalization, there are some players who go out of their way to help newbies, but they are becoming more and more scarce.

If you allow a helper to reset their lvl to 20 or 10 or whatever and keep the same gear, they'll own it, the newbie won't learn a damned thing, and we'll probably lose a new player because somebody their own level is making the game seem easy as pie. Some newbs might like the easy concept, so when they get to the real world, they get discouraged because it is hard as hell, whereas others will see it as too easy and likely not come back once they log off.

It has been said in other threads and other forums, but we need to take the time to actually take an interest in the player. I think a Mentoring program is a pretty good idea. Here is how I would envision it working:

Newbie: "petition help I'm confused"
Imm: Vigis you are on call, we have a new player and he needs some help, if you are not in a serious group, we are going to trans you to him as a similar class/level (if you already have a char that will fit, plz respond). If you are in a serious group, please let us know immediately....btw are you afk?

We need to actually be there for the newbies. Hell, if something like the above example were to work, mebbe the helper would be awarded prestige for their primary char. . .after all, prestige is going to mean someting some day right?


***edited for bad spelling.. yeah I'm sure I missed a couple.
Nerox tells you 'Good deal, the other tanks I have don't wanna do it, and since your my special suicidal tank i figure you don't mind one bit!'

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Postby Disoputlip » Sun May 15, 2005 10:48 am

Mainly for Vigis:
Scenario: There is a level 4, asking for help in WD.

Now in your above scenario it should be controlled by Imms who gets their level reset based on whos turn it is.

The other scenario is that anyone can reset their level. (to, in this case, 4).

I strongly prefer the 2nd method. I would use it so I could pull out a tank and xp some lowbies.

I prefer a mud where there isn't any interaction between Imm and player.

I don't think the later would scare anyone away. Although I would find it strange as lowbie that imm controlled a help program.

And yes, I accept it is more ad hoc. But especially for those playing outside prime time then it would be anyway.
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Postby Ambar » Sun May 15, 2005 1:31 pm

the de-leveling means NOTHING honestly ... I prefer the transport idea, or mine where we make mobs in noob zones !kill by lvl 20 and above then allow us the helpers to touch a sign, enter a prortal, whatever, to Scardale fountian so we can physically HELP them while showing them the ropes .. "hey this mob is a caster .. try bashing them" .. "this mob is a rogue .. see he wields a dagger" ....

what meant more to YOU as a noob .. Lilithelle welling in to you, or some lvl 10 trying to help you
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun May 15, 2005 2:52 pm

What would mean more to me as a noob would be if there were people my level who were not only willing and able to group, but would approach and ask me into their group, since as a noob I could possibly be struggling with the game mechanics and not have a clue. The first time I came into Sojourn I tried talking to a few people after spending a lot of time trying to figure things out and dying several times at level 1, and after either getting no answers or non-helpful answers, I just logged out. Heh, I thought those lifeforms at the Leuth fountain that night were players!
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Postby Gurns » Sun May 15, 2005 9:13 pm

So if you want to help/mentor, why not just roll a couple of new PCs, different classes and races, and leave them low-level and in Scardale? Give them a little gear, slightly better than newbie gear, enough for you and enough to hand out. Some newbie asks for help on NHC, and if you're not doing anything with one of your high level alts, log on as an appropriate low-level, and show them the ropes.

Probably even better would be, if nothing's happening and you're just hanging out, why not hang out in Scardale on a low-level alt?

No need for resetting levels, or imm involvement, or transporting, or anything complicated.
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Postby Lilira » Mon May 16, 2005 12:17 am

Sheesh Gurns. Take the words right out of my mouth. *grin*

Just this morning we (my husband and I) met a gentleman who had just returned to the mud after a long absence. We were on as our low-mids and the three of us wandered around and happily splatted mobs. We had a good time, and he got to work on getting back into the swing of things, while I embarressed myself with trying to play a class I'm STILL trying to get the swing of myself. (I've been playing lots of casters and the spells get all tangled in my head. <lol>)

The point is, we helped him out, I pointed out some changes that had occured since he last really played and we ALL HAD FUN!

I think the part I enjoyed the most was that it wasn't someone playing a lowbie alt, souped up in Level 50 gear, telling me how to play my own character instead of letting me work it out or ask questions.

It was an opportunity to meet someone new, enjoy it, and now we're looking forward to grouping with him again.
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Postby Lahgen » Mon May 16, 2005 1:44 am

Same here....a guildie and myself were levelling ourselves some new alts in Scardale and we grouped a couple true noobs to join us, and we showed them the ropes. We talked a little bit about AD&D too. It was fun.
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'

Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone

Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'



Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
Botef
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Location: Eastern Washington
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Postby Botef » Mon May 16, 2005 6:58 pm

Gurns wrote:So if you want to help/mentor, why not just roll a couple of new PCs, different classes and races, and leave them low-level and in Scardale? Give them a little gear, slightly better than newbie gear, enough for you and enough to hand out. Some newbie asks for help on NHC, and if you're not doing anything with one of your high level alts, log on as an appropriate low-level, and show them the ropes.

Probably even better would be, if nothing's happening and you're just hanging out, why not hang out in Scardale on a low-level alt?

No need for resetting levels, or imm involvement, or transporting, or anything complicated.


I'd do this more if I could log into assoc chat with a sub-20 character.
meh
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Postby meh » Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:22 am

w
The Eastern Walk Along Dusk Street
A patrol of peacekeepers march by, more worried about
deterring a riot, than breaking up a small drunken brawl.
The patrol continues on their way, stopping every so often
as one of the members enter a building to check on its
inhabitants and to make the merchants feel well protected.
Small weeds have started to grow up from between the
granite stones and some of the stones are cracking and
falling apart, making travel along the roadway burdensome.
The stones are off-white and have been mortared together
with a dark gray mixture. The street continues running
east and west.
Exits: - North# - East - West

A copper coin.
A sly rogue winks at you as as he cleans his nails with a dagger.
Lerinala (Grey Elf) stands here, fighting An experienced dire raider.
An experienced dire raider stands here, fighting Lerinala.

Lerinala starts casting an offensive spell called 'chromatic orb'.

< 41h/41H 87p/87P 102v/115V >
< P: std > An experienced dire raider completes his spell...
An experienced dire raider utters the words, 'qarr diesilla'
The world starts spinning, and your ears are ringing!
You are electrocuted to death by a lightning bolt unleashed by An experienced dire ra
ider.
With a final blow, you feel yourself falling to the ground.
Your soul leaves your body in the cold sleep of death...
The world spins faster, and is that 'The Anvil Chorus?'
You lose a level!
Your magic armor fades away.

*** Welcome to Toril ***

0) Leave Toril for a Time.
1) Enter the realms of Toril.
2) See who is currently playing.
3) Read the background story.
4) Change your password.
5) Enter your character description.
6) Delete this character.

Walk into a room in the newbie zone, die and lose alot of exp due to an area spell from something not aggressive to me. It certainly makes me not want to not bother coming back again.
Lilira
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Postby Lilira » Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:46 am

Botef wrote:
Gurns wrote:So if you want to help/mentor, why not just roll a couple of new PCs, different classes and races, and leave them low-level and in Scardale? Give them a little gear, slightly better than newbie gear, enough for you and enough to hand out. Some newbie asks for help on NHC, and if you're not doing anything with one of your high level alts, log on as an appropriate low-level, and show them the ropes.

Probably even better would be, if nothing's happening and you're just hanging out, why not hang out in Scardale on a low-level alt?

No need for resetting levels, or imm involvement, or transporting, or anything complicated.


I'd do this more if I could log into assoc chat with a sub-20 character.


Agree!!!!
kwirl
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Location: Delaware
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Postby kwirl » Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:03 pm

pwipe won't kill the playerbase, given the current state I'd bet you a thousand dollars cash that you'd see an *increase* of noticeable size for at least a 9 month duration.

if you keep punishing people who attempt to group with 'non-vital' characters for exp, you are going to end up the same place you are now. reward grouping, period.

someone mentioned the need for a trade/economy system, this would do amazing things for this game, it would re-value physical currency as well as providing options to the painfully abrasive 'level or do nothing'

your 'mentoring' idea is at best a brief and marginal solution. if it retains a single player a month I'd be surprised. the fact is, people don't want to play somewhere that requires a babysitter. they want to get into a group and be a contributing peer as soon as possible. that desire is stomped out in toril by letting anyone who tries to play know very soon that they have a very arduous journey ahead of them if they want to reach the level that the game really begins to shine.


I'm coming back because I got tired of the MMORPG's, and honestly, that genre of game isn't ready to provide the features that I want. TorilMud (COULD) but doesn't seem ready or interested or maybe capable of developing those features.

Anyway, like all the other people who write these sort of posts, I don't expect anything to change, but I won't be the silent partner.

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