Evermeet Changes

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Ashiwi
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Evermeet Changes

Postby Ashiwi » Mon May 16, 2005 12:15 am

While I was looking greatly forward to the changes to EM, we may have some questions still.

The Northern Road... wasn't that the road that led to the northern wastes on Homeland? I honestly haven't read a lot of the room descrips, but I'd still be on the first main road two hours later if I were.

There's still lots of non-elf activity on the island... humanoid non-elf. There's human presence everywhere.

The roads... that's one thing I never did care for on Homeland was how long those roads were, how they dead-ended at nothing, and how there was seemingly no "meat" to them. There's so much road on EM now that it's sprawling and confusing, and when you get to the ends of the roads, there really wasn't much point in walking them. Long, long road with very little to nothing of interest along the way leads to a great amount of boredom, which I wouldn't think would be something we'd want to foster.

One of the great things about the old EM was that exp was fairly easy to find for young elves... now it seems to be a long way away.

If there was any way we could make suggestions for the new EM, I'd really suggest paring those roads down some... sometimes less is more.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon May 16, 2005 12:26 am

All the low level mobs on the roads seem to DI. Gibberlings and ankhegs love me.

Shouldn't elves be able to gate or well into the island?
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Postby Shiallia » Mon May 16, 2005 6:05 am

This is stage one of Evermeet. The roads will not be dead-ends for long (barring real life intervention). As for the aggros mobs having DI...shrug..I left them as they were on the original areas so as to save on confusion but if it is the general consensus that they should not DI I will tend to that asap. You may post any changes that you would like to see here, or mail me, and I will try to get any that apply in as quickly as possible.

Oh and, no, this is not the northern road from Homeland. All of these roads were written specifically for Toril....sorry but after the first 100 or so you tend to lose creativity on room names...*stare*.

More xp zones are in the works...again barring real life interference.:)

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Postby Eilorn » Mon May 16, 2005 10:33 pm

It's good that the roads won't be dead ends, for long. BUT, still, pare down the roads, 10% of what's there would probably still be too much :-). Also, lose the !tele... it makes it a pain of you have to wander a half hour to find some place to gate/reloc from.

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Postby Lilira » Thu May 26, 2005 2:50 am

Not to mention Word???
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Postby Shiallia » Thu May 26, 2005 2:48 pm

The !WORD thing should be fixed now Lilira, let me know if it isn't, please?:)
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Postby Eilorn » Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:47 am

How about making sure the low level EM zones are closer to Leuthilspar? I found Kobold Village, and it's WAY far away, and not somewhere a newbie elf would easily find OR quickly/easily walk to.

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Postby fotex » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:40 pm

Agree, pare down the roads! Would be great if you could just condense point A to B of 20 rooms to just a couple rooms, and just make it take more moves to get from one to the next, especially if there's not much change in description from point A to B - and just put the windiness of the road in the description/title of the room.
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Postby Lilira » Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:08 am

Shiallia wrote:The !WORD thing should be fixed now Lilira, let me know if it isn't, please?:)


It is.. Thank you Shiallia.

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Postby Lirela » Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:31 am

Am I the only one who likes the roads?
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Postby Ambar » Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:28 am

I used to roll elves cause i LOVED evermeet ... if we could have what we know as evermeet then add what you want to it? Maybe it is a comfort factor we all want?? I'm not sure .. *sigh*

thank god for scardale cauuse i dislike EM now :(

and gods, PLEASE don't change Leuthilspar!
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Postby kwirl » Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:57 pm

Lirela wrote:Am I the only one who likes the roads?


well, since everyone or at least the majority seems to hate them, i am going to operate on the assumption that they must be a good thing.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:03 pm

It does kind of suck not being able to well in to EM, but I suppose it's thematic. It would be kind of nice if the elfgate room in Leuthilspar, or some other visibly flagged room, were made teleable for welling purposes, if the city itself and all the roads are going to be NOTELE.

I would propose the tower of high magic, but the tower isn't exactly accessible to most elves . . .
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Postby kiryan » Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:56 pm

I think that if EM was relatively safe, which it seems it should be for elves, long roads wouldn't be a problem. I don't understand how the long roads are a problem in themselves unless they are taking 15 movement per room.... can someone elaborate?
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:02 pm

If they're going to put in a lot of new zones on EM, they won't be a problem at all. In the meantime...

Imagine you're new to the mud and you roll up a grey elf. You don't really know anybody, so you set out to get a bit of experience and maybe meet some people along the way. One of the first things you do is start exploring the island. As you explore, you find lots of road... and more road... and then more road... and more road past that. Then, at the end of almost all the roads is a dead end. There is so much road that a careful explorer will take hours and hours, if not days, with little to show for their effort. As a newbie to the mud there's a good chance they might assume the rest of the mud is just as lacking in substance. The roads are beautiful, but when we say they're long, we mean LOOOONG, and with as few zones as there are on EM, there's very little purpose to them. My biggest worry in this area is that newbies will spend some time exploring, and determine that with as much road as EM has now with so few zones, that it's just a waste of time... and the natural assumption would be that the rest of the mud has the same empty feeling that the island does now.

Also, with almost every other hometown, there is easy to find lowbie experience very close to the hometown. This is not the case with EM any longer. EM used to be a very newbie-friendly place to start, in spite of the restrictions involved in not being able to leave the island, because it was easy to find your way around and it was compact enough so that almost everywhere you went was a point of interest. It all added up to a great deal of retention potential.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:34 pm

I dont like the fact that there seem to be sooo many more tracking aggros .. a gibber here and there, a stirge .. a manticore ..

but they track ..

all the way back to EM ..

Ash is sot joking .. the roads are LONG .. maybe more signs? More deer, squirrels, etc?
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Postby Shiallia » Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:27 am

The tracking aggros were not my creation nor did I do anything to them other than have them load globally in the newly-made areas of EM. I am working to fill in the roads with zones (as are others) but patience is appreciated as I also am trying to convert other homeland zones, mind children, a business, and retain my sanity. I have a different style of building, part of that style is the desire to have things be VERY close to the originals. Maybe this is not the place for that type anality, I assumed that I was asked to build here as my style had been critiqued by the populace at large, to at least some extent in their visits to Homeland, and that the style was something that could be adapted to. From these posts I am beginning to wonder about that. I am not sure what it is that you folks want as every time I have tried to talk to people about EM I tend to get more references to code and procs than areas and that is not my area of expertise/assignment. I am assigned to build areas, mobs, and items. I am NOT here to change code, I am not here to change the way the AI on the mobs work, I am not here to change the item balance issues. All I am here to do is create the world in which these support mechanisms exist. There will be no more roads added to EM, despite the fact that it will limit, and in some cases, destroy the initial plan for the island. I have installed newbie friendly mobs outside the leuthilspar gates that run from one end of the main road to the other and are also centered in a small zonelet just off the main road. Any aggros that are on the main road are there erroneously and should be brought to our attention as they pose a hazard to the newbie area. This does not mean that no further newbie areas will be added, I have one planned but wanted to be sure that there was _something_ in with the first stage of the island because I knew it could be months before I could get in stage 2. As for the lengths of the roads...again...my building style obviously does not fit the desire of the populace, however, I have no intention of just trashing a month's worth of hard work. I will find some way, in the future, to make amends on this.

And yes, Ambar, Leuthilspar is slated for rebuilding. It was left as it was, along with Kobold, Sylvan Glades, and the other original evermeet zones, as a way to not throw Torilites into an utter tailspin. Change is going to happen, there is no way that this merger can take place if change does not happen and the sooner that we all realize that and come to some agreements on what should be changed and to what extent the better off we all will be. I need input but I cannot, and will not, stop progress for the sake of "familiarity". Tell me what it is you like about Leuthilspar (the only complaints I have heard are on the lack of room descriptions and that is where I was aiming to make the most changes) and I will endeavor to retain it. The drastic difference between one step inside Leuthilspar's gates and one step outside is an eyesore right now, tho, and it needs to be rectified. And I did not make ANY changes within Leuthilspar besides the connection from the gate to the new zones so any errors in there were pre-existing.

There is no reason that anyone should be able to cast a spell and move magically from the mainland to Evermeet. Until some form of code is created that will stop this but still allow teleportation within the confines of the island, the !tele flags must remain.
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Postby Lahgen » Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:42 am

Shiallia wrote:There is no reason that anyone should be able to cast a spell and move magically from the mainland to Evermeet.


If I'm reading this right, does this mean we won't be able to Moonwell there either?
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:35 am

Shiallia, I hope you don't misunderstand my post. The roads are beautiful, in spite of being so long. My heaviest concern with them is that they're so long, and there's so little attached to them at the moment, that it gives the island an empty feeling that will discourage newcomers. I'm all for roads that lead somewhere, but I'm worried about how the general feeling of emptiness might impress newcomers to the game, especially since the addition of zones to the island may be quite some time in coming.

Admittedly, little elves aren't stuck on Evermeet anymore since Scardale was implemented (love Scardale, but think it's a shame to lift the restrictions on elves), so I may be discussing a moot point, anyway.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:50 am

Shiallia, please don't be offened, no offense was meant, seriously.

It'sd kind of history to get new stuff picked apart by some people.. In the past I watched people rip apart Hulburg when it first went in, DS when it went in, Magma when it went in, should have seen the UPROAR when SPOB went in! .. its what we players do :( We just don't do it constructively sometimes. We appreciate the hard work it takes, we appreciate the fact that admin/areas/quest/whoever have real lives, we do too ...

The roads are pretty .. they give the proper aura, there are just soo long :(

I think moderation is the key ... Why add all the roads now? wht not add them with each little zonelet? That way you can design the roads around the zonelets, changing them up a bit, adding some new flair from the new areas ...

That way it doesnt seem like you are walking in circles, seeing the same rooms over and over ... Will be a shame to see new elves who just go to Scardale and never learn their island home ...

Changes is good, and we Torilites (myself included) need to stop and remember at least we have a familiar mud to log on to every day
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Postby moritheil » Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:34 am

Shiallia wrote:There is no reason that anyone should be able to cast a spell and move magically from the mainland to Evermeet. Until some form of code is created that will stop this but still allow teleportation within the confines of the island, the !tele flags must remain.


Why not? I can think of several; player convenience is at the top of the list. I understand the desire to limit transport to the island to elves and exclude those without elven blood (a fact that the fey'ri capitalized on), and to replicate the mighty wards that surround Evermeet in the books. However, an extensive elfgate system allowed convenient transport for elves in the books. Is this, too, going to be replicated, or is it the plan for EM to be even more secluded and hence even more difficult to deal with as a complete newbie who can't call in Helpers to help?
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Postby moritheil » Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:39 am

PS: I am not, of course, Ambar, but I hope that you won't take offense if I comment on what I like about Leuthilspar.

I have always found its clean simplicity to dovetail neatly with the elegance that I would expect from an elven city. It is logical; it is rational; it is subdued, symmetric, and sane in a way that human cities like WD and BG are not.

Obviously changing the room descriptions will not mean changing the layout at all, and I am heartened to see that the fair city will be getting a redecoration.
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Postby Eilistraee » Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:44 pm

I'll make a presumtion and answer one question for Shiallia...

Putting in the long roads as they are now help provide a skeleton for the island, one that can have zones placed in such that they 'fit'. It makes it easier for future construction if the connect points are laid out and you can see where your area dimensions would plug into the skeleton.
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Postby Vaprak » Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:52 pm

Eilistraee wrote:I'll make a presumtion and answer one question for Shiallia...

Putting in the long roads as they are now help provide a skeleton for the island, one that can have zones placed in such that they 'fit'. It makes it easier for future construction if the connect points are laid out and you can see where your area dimensions would plug into the skeleton.


In other words, the big picture that is sometimes so difficult to see :)
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Postby Botef » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:27 pm

Shiallia wrote:There is no reason that anyone should be able to cast a spell and move magically from the mainland to Evermeet. Until some form of code is created that will stop this but still allow teleportation within the confines of the island, the !tele flags must remain.


Does this mean that it will be impossible to reach Evermeet via Gates/Rifts from smoke? If so are there plans to rework spell quests and stuff like that that utilize stuff from Evermeet that would be impossible to reach for evil-races?

I am strongly against using items for spell quests that are so hard to aquire for one of the racial sides...My main reasoning is that if its impossible for me to reach it, how the heck am I to find it in the first place without playing both good & evil short of asking people I don't play with to tell me, or give me the item which isnt how solving quests should ideally work IMO, particularly spell quests. EQ quests are one thing, I won't argue or complain there, however if I can't even access Evermeet to explore, how am I gonna find a spell quest item I need short of spamming every grey elf I see and asking them to find it for me....
Last edited by Botef on Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lirela » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:36 pm

(This isn't directed as an insult or talking-down to anyone in particular, don't anyone get offended now.)

You know, I was a builder for a while on another mud, and I remember how hard it is to hear your zones criticized. Some builders really put a bit of themselves into their zones. It's kind of like a canvas, and what we make has meaning to us and is very personal. We get an idea, and know it will be grand when it is finished, but in the meantime it may leave something to be desired. While that may be the case with Evermeet, I think that what Shiallia has done is beautiful and I can't wait to see more. Let her do her thing, and when she is done, she'll ask for more input. It's really brave for a person to let someone see an unfinished project, and here she has put it out there for hundreds of people to see and criticize. Be kind, and be patient. Change is coming, and if you let it, it can be a good thing.

And Shiallia, please go with your original plan. Everyone will get used to the new Evermeet and, I hope, agree that it is better than ever. Get in touch, we have stuff to talk about!

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Postby Shiallia » Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:08 pm

Gonna try to answer all the questions so if I miss one let me know...

As for the gate issue to EM, according to the books there are no longer any portals that access the island. How closely we will follow this relies on many things, the major issue being playability. I have something in mind that may ease this a bit but it has to be critiqued first so I will not bring it up as yet in this forum.

Anyone may comment on their thoughts regarding Leuthilspar. The layout is good, the lack of color and depth to the rooms, and the lack of some areas of the city, are mostly what I am focusing on at this point so input is welcome.

Any spell quests on EM that involve evil races will be made accessible to them through some method. At this time I do not believe that there are any quests that fall into this category but if I am mistaken please let me know. I am not saying, by any means, that an evil questing a spell that is set on EM will have an easy time of it, I am just saying that it will not be INACCESSIBLE.

And Eil and Vaprak were correct in their statements regarding the roads...I just need to be able to see the layout and the affects the roads have on the island at large. As I stated previously, they are being looked at to either make them make more sense in terms of the zones that you access along their lengths or their final layout.

And I have not taken offense to anything anyone has said here. You have all been very blunt and helpful, but by no means have you come across as mean or overly critical. This is the type thing I need to hear/see and by putting it in the ways that you have it makes it easier to take as constructive criticism...for that I thank you all:)
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Postby Shiallia » Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:23 pm

Oh, and I forgot to mention, there is one zone on EM that I have yet to hear any feedback on so I am wondering if it has even been found. For the sake of not giving away a secret (if it is still one) has anyone come across the corpse of a horse yet and entered that zone?
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Postby Botef » Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:42 pm

Shiallia wrote:Gonna try to answer all the questions so if I miss one let me know...

As for the gate issue to EM, according to the books there are no longer any portals that access the island. How closely we will follow this relies on many things, the major issue being playability. I have something in mind that may ease this a bit but it has to be critiqued first so I will not bring it up as yet in this forum.

Anyone may comment on their thoughts regarding Leuthilspar. The layout is good, the lack of color and depth to the rooms, and the lack of some areas of the city, are mostly what I am focusing on at this point so input is welcome.

Any spell quests on EM that involve evil races will be made accessible to them through some method. At this time I do not believe that there are any quests that fall into this category but if I am mistaken please let me know. I am not saying, by any means, that an evil questing a spell that is set on EM will have an easy time of it, I am just saying that it will not be INACCESSIBLE.

And Eil and Vaprak were correct in their statements regarding the roads...I just need to be able to see the layout and the affects the roads have on the island at large. As I stated previously, they are being looked at to either make them make more sense in terms of the zones that you access along their lengths or their final layout.

And I have not taken offense to anything anyone has said here. You have all been very blunt and helpful, but by no means have you come across as mean or overly critical. This is the type thing I need to hear/see and by putting it in the ways that you have it makes it easier to take as constructive criticism...for that I thank you all:)


There is a newer spell quest that uses an item from Evermeet...It was annoying enough before to aquire it with an evil race character, I can only imagine now.

The difficulty in getting it isn't my main issue here though...Its that its in a place where there is little to no chance of me ever exploring now due to it being very inaccessable not only to me as a class, but my fellow players as a race, which means the chances of me finding it on my own, by way of remembering it from a previous visit or simply exploring, are next to nothing.

Its especially annoying when the item is very very easy for a goodrace/evilrace to aquire but not for the other...sometimes as simple as just going to a shop and buying it...Meanwhile the opposing race has no chance to encounter it on there own naturally, and must ask people they don't know or play with for assistance. I just don't think this should ever be the case with spell quests. I shouldn't have to ask a human to go buy a book for me cause I can't enter the place and use the shop because of my race to complete a spell for my class. Same goes for asking a greyelf to aquire a spell quest item I can't reach.

If its something a goodrace/evilrace and just go pick up/buy, but the other race cannot don't expect me to risk the danger either, I'll just make an alt grey and go pick one up and mule it or pay someone to do it for me, but that shouldn't be how it works...

In closing though, I love the other changes...I look forward to exploring it more, two thumbs up.
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Postby Shiallia » Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:26 pm

I have been made aware of two spells that are at issue here, one of which I am to understand does have an alternate way of acquiring the end. If you know of any quests like this please PM me or mmail me with more specifics. But please, don't post it here:)

And Botef, I agree.
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Postby Nebomosel » Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:32 pm

Shiallia wrote:Oh, and I forgot to mention, there is one zone on EM that I have yet to hear any feedback on so I am wondering if it has even been found. For the sake of not giving away a secret (if it is still one) has anyone come across the corpse of a horse yet and entered that zone?

As far as I know, I've got most of the new areas of Evermeet mapped and haven't seen this corpse yet. Is it tacked on to an old zone like Glades or Sylvan Woods? Or is the entrance hidden? Any hints would be helpful ;)

Neb
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Postby Shiallia » Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:35 pm

Is it tacked on to an old zone like Glades or Sylvan Woods? Or is the entrance hidden?


nope.
Yep.
When you find it...give me a critique?:)
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Postby Botef » Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Just remembered this as well. Will the Chult/Evermeet portal ever become functional? If not might consider removing it. :)
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Postby Ambar » Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:17 am

Yeah spicing Leuth up will be nice, made me feel better seeing the layout wouldnt change :P

and finally a fix to

the split in the path

no caps, etc :P always bugged me!
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:32 pm

I must say, I just spent the last few hours wandering the endless, and pointless spam that are known as the roads between zones on EM. Why does it have to be this way? A ton of dead ends, nothing to see, etc. Seems so pointless...
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Postby Marthammor » Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:19 am

The original plan was to have zones put in where those dead ends are, but that fell through. We're going to remove some or most of the dead ends until other zones can be put. No time frame on this currently, but it is on the list.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:36 pm

Not to be too much of a jerk, but it sounds like the signature Toril staff response here...

"Changes are coming to address this."

You can only promise so much until you follow through before people get tired of waiting. Everyone appreciates what the staff contributes, but maybe it'd be better to adpot a policy where you don't implement framework until there's content to support it.
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Postby Marthammor » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:59 pm

Yeah, well, I'd be working on it right now if I weren't having a problem with my isp blocking the use of ssh. That means I can't connect to the server to upload, download, or edit files.
There is a ton of stuff I've been unable to do because of this. We've got someone trying to finish up an area on testmud, which I was the person uploading changes for them, and now I can't so progress on that has kind of come to a crawl or even stopped all together.
There are about thirty things sitting in areas mmail that need taken care of, and I have another 20-25 in my own personal mmail.

Needless to say, I'm a little agitated over the issue I'm having, and I've already let my isp know that while I've been patient so far, if I were a business customer, I'd have already left for another isp.
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Postby Karenthael » Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:02 pm

As the person originally assigned to undertake the task of making EM what it was supposed to be...I apologize. I have had certain real life priorities that have interfered wth the production of additions to EM, namely the USArmy. I had become much disillusioned long before I was deployed to South Korea, I will admit, and I let that affect my dedication to the project, for that I apologize also. Recently I have come to the conclusion that I can only do so much from here but I am hoping that even if the roads I spent time building have to be removed for the time being (I am also not satisfied with the result of my work) that the general layout will one day be maintained....if not then so be it; I should have had my priorities straight where the MUD was concerned. Again, I apologize for my lack of faith and motivation.
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Postby Marthammor » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:27 pm

My connection was finally fixed late last night, so over the next week I should be able to get this taken care of.
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Postby Birile » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:47 pm

Karenthael wrote:As the person originally assigned to undertake the task of making EM what it was supposed to be...I apologize. I have had certain real life priorities that have interfered wth the production of additions to EM, namely the USArmy. I had become much disillusioned long before I was deployed to South Korea, I will admit, and I let that affect my dedication to the project, for that I apologize also. Recently I have come to the conclusion that I can only do so much from here but I am hoping that even if the roads I spent time building have to be removed for the time being (I am also not satisfied with the result of my work) that the general layout will one day be maintained....if not then so be it; I should have had my priorities straight where the MUD was concerned. Again, I apologize for my lack of faith and motivation.


Life happens, no need to apologize. As for the work you had to do on the roads, I'm sure it'll be mostly maintained so your efforts weren't for naught. :)
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Postby Mirlantharn » Tue May 29, 2007 6:22 am

Shiallia: Thank you ever so much for working on Evermeet. Don't get discouraged, because there are a ton of elves thanking you for such efforts.

Karenthael: No worries. Just come back at some point, k? :)~


Leuthilspar does need some sprucing up (please forgive the sylvan pun).
One thing I remember from a long time ago was being able to even so much as _get_ to the docks.

Also, is there _any_ chance of being able to get into the palace without having to sacrifice some poor chap with a key?

Yes, I'm still around and kicking,
Mirlantharn

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