character rolling options

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Pisalos
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character rolling options

Postby Pisalos » Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:25 pm

I was curious as I said in my first post that it is hard to control rolling a new character. Some of these notches I found to be within the same mighty or heroic. I am hoping the roller will just display the actual number or whatever the true value is for a player. In the game, someone told me that it is better than it was, but I learned on the debate team that comparing things to the past isn't really logical. I think it is confusing to offer bonuses when you can be wasting them. If you have met the notch on mighty for example but add anyway, because you could ignore and then the mighty isn't highest, well..that is just a waste. Please allow just for the true value to display rather than the 'mundane, etc words'

Another consideration about this rolling process is when you have what you want, and the last statistic you would need is 'fair' or 'good' but the only way the roll would be good is after the bonus. So if you would have the perfect roll, but the requirement is good, and you would have that but before bonus, you had 'fair' ..you would have to pass up the roll. Best example is my brother's rolling up an elf bard.


Your basic stats:
Strength: mighty Power: average
Dexterity: heroic Intelligence: mighty
Agility: mundane Wisdom: bad
Constitution: average Charisma: mighty


This roll he got would be good if he could keep, then add to average to make it fair then put it to intelligence, and switch the existing 'mighty' in intelligence to agility. This way rolling would not take nearly as long. So, by accepting the roll, you automatically have intelligence put to agility, then power and the new mundane intelligence switched, to yield this:

Your basic stats:
Strength: mighty Power: mundane
Dexterity: heroic Intelligence: average
Agility: mighty Wisdom: bad
Constitution: average Charisma: mighty

Then, for considering the intelligence, since it needs to be 80 (fair) for a bard, it would take one of your bonuses or whatever number was needed to achieve the requirements.
Pisalos
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Postby Pisalos » Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:33 pm

Your basic stats:
Strength: mighty Power: bad
Dexterity: mighty Intelligence: heroic
Agility: average Wisdom: average
Constitution: fair Charisma: mighty
(spaced out and highlighted the scores you consider for bard rolling)

This is another example of the roll kicking butt except you cannot switch the constitution and intelligence. You need the highest 'fair' possible for it to work in intelligence, but this 'fair' is low. If you could accept, then add to the fair, to build it to good, then switch constitution and intelligence, then it would be so great. Please consider this.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:42 pm

you can already switch stats around

(S)trength (D)exterity (A)gility (CO)nstitution (P)ower (I)ntelligence (W)isdom (CH)arisma

so BEFORE you accept the character (before you answer: Do you wish to reroll), you can swap the stats around. I W would swap intelligence with wisdom, S I would swap strength with intelligence
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:07 am

hmm, but what he's saying is the fair that is there isn't high enough but otherwise would be after adding bonuses. Either that or the intelligence requisite would be met with that fair if he were able to switch. I assume he is referring to the option to switch stats in between bonuses. That or being able to add bonuses to a roll before sending it, thus making that weak fair strong enough to be 80, or even good, which is better yet...shrug
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Postby Ambar » Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:57 am

the roller can already give you super stats ... I am reading you want it easier??

Rolling a bard is a veryt hard char to roll for the numerous good stats you need ...


IMHO it is fine, just swap the stats you want (keep in mind there are certain minimum requirements to fulfill), decide whether to sacrifice agility (no) or strength (sure) and you can get hero in con, int, char, dex mighty in wis and strength

be patient! the perfect roll is out there ...
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Postby Pisalos » Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:30 am

No. I'm asking that the ambiguous words be replaced with the factual statistic, if I'm saying that right. I mean an actual number or the true value rather than a word that has a range, and within the range lies a notch or two, such as how there can be a notch within the 'mighty' or 'heroic'. I noticed an elf has a notch in the 'heroic' Some heroic agility is 55 ac and others are 49 ac.

Since you have 3 bonuses to add, what I was citing was where you can get a fair, but it isn't an 80. I think fair was 76-81. So, I believe that

Your basic stats:
Strength: mighty Power: bad
Dexterity: mighty Intelligence: heroic
Agility: average Wisdom: average
Constitution: fair Charisma: mighty


In this case, the fair was not the '80' that the fair needs to be, it said it didn't meet the requirement. Since you get the three bonuses, I was seeing if they would allow you to add the bonuses before you attempt to switch statistics, this way you could possibly end up with a higher fair. That fair then being switched with the intelligence's score of heroic. Finally it would probably end up like this, since the first bonus appears to be very large:


Your basic stats:
Strength: mighty Power: bad
Dexterity: mighty Intelligence: good
Agility: average Wisdom: average
Constitution: heroic Charisma: mighty

The intelligence would go from fair to good after the switching because the first bonus seems to be so large, that it would jump that much. Then you could accept this roll because allowing the addition to fair, then switching CONSTITUTION and INTELLIGENCE would work because it met the standard. You would then have two bonuses left to add as you saw fit.

I hope I make sense. It's just a bit hard that my brother and I are out of school and it's a pain to share an account on the computer (we have broadband so I hope they won't think we multiplay) and rolling a character is taking so long. We die rather quickly but this mud is so much better and the peaple are so much nicer than the higher ranked muds on the topmuds page.
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Postby Lahgen » Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:04 am

There's no need to be a perfectionist. Any stats the roller gives you will be "usable," just not the best you can do.
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Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Waelos » Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:11 am

Ahh, I think I understand. . .

You would like the ability to swap stats AFTER the bonuses are added, just in case?

I think that is an idea that has some merit. . . It is pretty easy to get high scores without that option though. It takes a bit of time (its a pain) but you can get nearly perfect stats if you take the time.

I don't think they'll ever let you see the numbers exactly. . .That is a benefit of gaining 20th level =) (and it preserves some of the mystery and fun of the game at first).

If you're playing a warrior type, you want all of your physical scores to be at least "good". Agility is important for avoiding being hit (while Dex helps you hit). The "notches" are a bit different for every race. . . and I don't know them all (and I don't think I can post them here anyway hehe)

I'm betting that if you take 5 full minutes rolling you can get a character witll all mighty in the physicals before adding your bonuses and be pretty well off for a first level char =) (psst! I think the bonuses are 6 /3 / 1) but that's just my guess.

Give that a shot and see how it works for ya!

The Lost
Pisalos
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Postby Pisalos » Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:25 am

Waelos wrote:Ahh, I think I understand. . .

..
You would like the ability to swap stats AFTER the bonuses are added, just in case?

..
The Lost


Trouble on bards for my brother is that they need to hit, have ac, be strong, and I think all chars need constitution. But what is bad is they ALSO need charisma and intelligence. If they don't allow the numbers since the help files show it to be a max of 100 rating, which I guess is relative to whatever race that may be, I really would like to see an added 'This would be this character's Armor class: xxx, hitroll xxx, and damage roll xxx' That way you would know that you have the maximum roll. Is there really anybody here that doesn't try for maximum stats but doesn't want to waste away the day on rolling? There would be a lot of very good rolls if only you could switch stats after (as you said so well) switch stats during or after bonuses.
Pisalos
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Postby Pisalos » Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:27 am

Oh, how come fireball doesn't seem to be listed as an area spell? Wouldn't that be more like minute meteors or firebolt maybe? Not that high in level but the file makes fireball out to be a single hitting spell. I didn't see delay blast either.
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Postby Lahgen » Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:45 am

This isn't like Tabletop D&D. That can have some advantages though: on the mud, you can even play a Lich.
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'

Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone

Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'



Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
Pisalos
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Postby Pisalos » Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:54 am

Picture perfect example:

Rerolling this character.


Your basic stats:
Strength: heroic Power: bad
Dexterity: average Intelligence: good
Agility: mighty Wisdom: mundane
Constitution: good Charisma: mighty


You may choose to reroll your character at this time. If you elect
to reroll, these stats will be erased and new ones rolled. To reroll,
select 'y' (or hit <return>). To keep this character, and continue
character generation, select 'n'. Press the '?' to view details about
uses for each stat.

To swap stats: enter the first stat name folowed by the second stat
name (ex. type 'con str' will replace str with your current con roll).


This roll would be so perfect if it would allow you to add your bonuses before accepting. Again, this is an attempt for a bard. If you could raise that 'average' on dexterity to fair, and then switch it to intelligence, rolling wouldn't be so mind numbing.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:54 am

Pisalos wrote:No. I'm asking that the ambiguous words be replaced with the factual statistic, if I'm saying that right. I mean an actual number or the true value rather than a word that has a range, and within the range lies a notch or two, such as how there can be a notch within the 'mighty' or 'heroic'. I noticed an elf has a notch in the 'heroic' Some heroic agility is 55 ac and others are 49 ac.


Ah, here is where we run into an issue where Toril differs from many other games.

You are supposed to work at it to know the actual statistics on things.

Yes, the info may exist out there, but the way Toril works is by keeping you in the dark. It's up to you to make friends, test things out yourself, come up with theories, and generally have fun figuring out how things work. It is not supposed to be like a Blizzard game, where the stats are all thrown at you so you can min/max to your heart's content. This isn't to say that you can't min/max, just that you have to be prepared to earn the ability to min/max. To take your statistics example, the way the stat roller works is, you do not see your statistics until you hit level 20 or thereabouts. This is intentionally done to prevent cheap and easy "stat hunting." It is not impossible to get awesome stats, but you will have to work for them, and it is a considerable amount of work for a starting player.

If stats were known in totality at char creation, chars could easily be min-maxed, which would cheapen +stat items. This would seriously disrupt the balance of the comparative use of items, which would require a rebalancing of awards for different zones.

Part of your confusion probably stems from the fact that standards have already been loosening. For example, you can now see your exp progress as a concrete number. You can now ask several people for the stats on an item and they will actually give them to you, without any effort on your part. These are new steps, and - to me - steps in the wrong direction.

Learning statistics, odds, and all this "hidden knowledge" by heart has historically been a part of playing the game. I am not advancing the argument that things are "better now," as you suggested in your first post, and that they therefore do not need to change, but rather, that they are actually not better. Toril's appeal is partly based in its mystery, and it should remain that way.
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Pisalos
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Postby Pisalos » Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:26 pm

well, some of the other muds offered a base char, which makes it quite easy to start out. Here, your 'work' for a very high statistical roll is offset when the roll is good enough only if you were able to add bonuses before, but you can't switch statistics around once you start adding bonuses. It's quite frustrating. I assume players play here to gain friends and make strong characters. It's silly to accept low statistics and then strengthen a character, only finding others who were more patient. After trying to figure out the character creation, it seems that it is absolutely impossible to make a 'perfect' character in that other muds I saw, you can roll all 18's. There are the Schwarzneggers and so forth on the planet. But here, you have to compromise. My brother is dead set on a bard for now for the hiding, and casting seems awesome.

Since you can add bonuses to start with, what's the difference of allowing you to switch stats during that part of the process? There are so many very good rolls that involve an 'average' that could be raised to fair, and then put to intelligence, but this current system doesn't allow it. So far, level 5 is a big plateau but I wanted to see if others saw the switching values for attributes to be 'too strong' considering you can add bonuses to begin with already. It's just so amazingly hard to roll a bard or battlechanter. Those two were the most hairpulling to try, due to those averages that end up on Wisdom, Agility, or Power, but you can't raise those to fair and then switch the existing 'good' or higher on intelligence to something more worthy. This is just so frustrating. Well, that and hearing him complain. My mom won't let him write on the net cuz he's 13 haha!
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Postby Thracx V'staluz » Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:17 pm

Pisalos wrote:well, some of the other muds offered a base char, which makes it quite easy to start out. Here, your 'work' for a very high statistical roll is offset when the roll is good enough only if you were able to add bonuses before, but you can't switch statistics around once you start adding bonuses. It's quite frustrating. I assume players play here to gain friends and make strong characters. It's silly to accept low statistics and then strengthen a character, only finding others who were more patient. After trying to figure out the character creation, it seems that it is absolutely impossible to make a 'perfect' character in that other muds I saw, you can roll all 18's. There are the Schwarzneggers and so forth on the planet. But here, you have to compromise. My brother is dead set on a bard for now for the hiding, and casting seems awesome.

Since you can add bonuses to start with, what's the difference of allowing you to switch stats during that part of the process? There are so many very good rolls that involve an 'average' that could be raised to fair, and then put to intelligence, but this current system doesn't allow it. So far, level 5 is a big plateau but I wanted to see if others saw the switching values for attributes to be 'too strong' considering you can add bonuses to begin with already. It's just so amazingly hard to roll a bard or battlechanter. Those two were the most hairpulling to try, due to those averages that end up on Wisdom, Agility, or Power, but you can't raise those to fair and then switch the existing 'good' or higher on intelligence to something more worthy. This is just so frustrating. Well, that and hearing him complain. My mom won't let him write on the net cuz he's 13 haha!


It's part of the game. Noone on the mud has perfect stats, and that's a good thing. I suggest talking to an experienced bard and they will tell you which stats are most important.

And, as I see it, you are putting too much time into attributes. Equipment is more important than attributes. Skills are more important than attributes. Experience is more important than attributes. And lastly, friends are are more important too.

As long as you get a decent roll, not hitting the final notch in one or two categories isn't going to inhibit your character all that much. You can get equipment to fix things. Everyone else does. Or they simply accept the fact that they aren't perfect.

Sesexe for example, she's a voker with like 60 constitution, but I'd bet dollars to donuts she's still a damn good at her class. Stats aren't that important to worry over for more than an hour....within that time you can find something decent.
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Postby Sarell » Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:24 am

I agree with Pisalos. Atm, the roller gets you AMAZING stats, but the way to use it is a bit wierd. The best way to get stats is to have an autoroller sit there and do it for you for days, which doesn't really add anything to the game. I'd much rather see a system where it takes 5 mins to roll a character.

On the other hand, while I think having the roller so the best way to do things is just time and would like to reduce rolling time, i'd also like to significantly lwoer the stats you can roll. Back to what it was when the mud came up would be okay, but back to about 10% less than that across the board would rock. Would make people think a little more about their gear. Someone had the idea to remove max stat items and make all stuff maxstat and lower the roller a lot to compensate, then we would see some truly different and interesting characters I believe.
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Postby Yasden » Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:13 pm

If the roller was also tweaked to make it easier to roll a hybrid class (bard, bchanter, anti, pal, dire, ranger), you might see some more new players of these types. I don't think they need higher stats per se, just that the roller take into account how many stats these classes rely upon and possibly cannibalize the others to boost those 5-6 stats they really truly do need.
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Postby Birile » Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:10 pm

Pisalos, if your bro is dead set on a bard, I believe one of the easiest races to roll amazing bard stats with is human (they don't need a very high constitution, as opposed to grey elves who need a super-high one). *shrug*

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