Kindness for Enchanters

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Thilindel
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Kindness for Enchanters

Postby Thilindel » Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:34 am

I have a mid-level one now. I couldn't help but realize how how incredibly retarded the xp is. There's someone else who spent 2.5 hours xp'g today at lvl 37 for 10%. Y is this class so rough? :P
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Postby Sarell » Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:15 am

That's sound pretty harsh but I get a lot more than that on my level 50 enchanter.
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Postby Nekelet » Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:53 am

Having tried myself to level a chanter, I must say... turn down their tables.
I ended up giving away a fully scribed musp invasion book to a chanter who I knew could use it, just because the xp was so painful.

For such a needed class, it sure is an awful lot of work to level one.
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Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:32 pm

said so well, nek! My prob is that I remember my invoker xp'g looong ago. XP wasn't squat. It was at worst, annoying. This chanter class is looking hopeless. Now I think I've tried every class now. Far and wide, chanter is ungodly painful. Voker raced by in levels til like 44. Necro wasn't so easy, but still, it was 'easy' in that you have pets and can just roll stuff. Isn't a mage is a mage is a mage? What the world did poor enchanters ever do to get King Arthur's huge table? =D
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Postby kiryan » Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:13 pm

you were either in a big slow exp group or you were soloing very ineffectively. possibly fighting classless mobs. Another factor is that enchanters really don't get any damage exp, especially if they are busy hasting globing faerie firing.

Invoker exp is the same as enchanter exp except you don't get damage exp and hence level slower. If you were an invoker in an exp group and didn't cast anything you would level slowly like an enchanter or a shaman stuck stoning and healing.


You can also get more exp by stoning (not meming out) and engaging with the mob. It seems that stoneskin exp doesn't accrue unless your fighting.

Best advice is really keep it to a small group. 2man ds with a rogue or get a tank, healer, ranger and go exp on ship or ds. (can swap healer for a good enchanter, can swap ranger for rogue if you got haste).
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:13 pm

If the table for voker/chanter are the same, then it's pretty dumb that chanters get hosed for their stone, etc in that there's no xp to gain. If there IS, then they're getting ripped cuz xp from damage is so much better. I just think they should make the playing field level. As I said before, a mage is a mage is a mage..but xp for each isn't created equal 8(
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Postby Lilira » Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:57 pm

Okies, here's my 2c. I'm not a god, so I don't know what the actual tables are. I do know that I levelled really well til 36th. Then the XP went splat. Big group, small group.. doesn't matter. Here's my take on why..

Normal group:
Tank
Rogue
Bard
Me
Maybe an invoker

I stone/blur/haste tank, haste rogue, haste/stone bard. Why the bard? Well they seem to be the switch bait. We go zooming through XP zone and I maybe have time to mem back one spell before "Mob at Pretty hurt!" If I'm lucky I get to run in and toss a magic missle to get my measly little hooks into the mob. If that happens.. I get 1%. If it doesn't, no visible progress.

Most XP trains are considerably larger, then life gets MUCH more interesting. I work to keep all the hitters (rogues/bards/ranger) hasted, usually have an extra warrior who is griping cus I haven't hasted them, then I try and keep stone/blur up on tank. Oh crap, the giant sure is switching to the cleric alot.. toss stone. Uh oh, stone out on tank.. c 'stone' tank, you do not have this memorized. *sigh* Out and prior yet again to get a quick stone, run back in and toss stone. Whoops Mob is dead.. damage? Who has time to cast it?

Yes.. XPing an enchanter is difficult. At least until scales show up, soloing is VERY difficult, and something I try not to attempt. By the time I toss all my offense, flee out, mem, and run back in for another salvo, the mob is usually mostly healed again.

BTW I have a 48th invoker.. she was MUCH easier to XP,, especially since all I had to do was stand there and blow stuff up. Smoke XP was an option as well, something which just isn't practical as an enchanter who doesn't have the offensive capabilities to smoke mephits. (Pardon the pun.)

Leri is only 38th.. I'll know more when she gets bigger, and her blinds are a little more reliable, and I get better at playing her. Lord knows I'm trying as its a pretty challenging class to play and play WELL. My guildmates and friends have really helped me out XP wise, and I appreciate all the help. Lord knows, the XP isn't BORING.. just repetative and exhausting as I refuse to trigger myself into oblivion.

I have a profound respect for all you enchanters out there who do your jobs and have taken the time to learn how to do them well.

Lil
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Postby Maedor » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:33 pm

I really had no problems with chanter xp.

I'm the only 39+50 chanter i know!

in my early 40s until 48ish, I easily solod 20% or better per hour. Even at 49, i could solo 10% per hour while half afk working.

It's really not that bad. You just have to keep chippin away!
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:41 pm

Kiry.. actually proved my point. My chanter was lvl 22 when kiry.. started xp'g his voker. Now it's this:

Level: 28 Race: Grey Elf Class: Enchanter
Hit points: 341(341) Moves: 120(120)
Experience Progress: 45 %
Coins carried: 49 platinum 114 gold 61 silver 92 copper
Coins in bank: 1423 platinum 194 gold 157 silver 248 copper
Prestige: 3370 Acheron Kill Count: 0
Citizen of: Leuthilspar
Playing time: 1 days / 14 hours/ 2 minutes

Kiry.. is ALREADY lvl 31. I xp nonstop and don't just idle.

Invoker says, 'go ahead, I'll spot you 22 levels'
...a couple days pass
Lvl 31 invoker tells your sorry lvl 28 ass, 'Haha, see you later, sucker!'

Like I said, invoker was a joke to level vs this enchanter. I got my voker to level 48 before being bored a few years ago. Still had no trouble hitting 400% thereafter.
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Postby Sarell » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:49 am

Seriously you must be doing it wrong, I thought you were even higher level and getting that. Lich + chanter on smoke is ridiculously good. So is chanter solo in DS. Or chanter ranger warrior cleric is decent. Or chanter rogue. Chanter and a bard are pretty good too.

I find druid way harder to exp than chanter -As a druid you can't smite as efficiently solo and you are pretty much worthless to a top rate exp group.- and shaman's have no where near the awesome configurations for exp as a chanter. There is so many different excellent groups a chanter can form to exp.
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Postby shalath » Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:03 am

Thilindel wrote:If the table for voker/chanter are the same, then it's pretty dumb that chanters get hosed for their stone, etc in that there's no xp to gain. If there IS, then they're getting ripped cuz xp from damage is so much better. I just think they should make the playing field level. As I said before, a mage is a mage is a mage..but xp for each isn't created equal 8(

All the evidence I have is anecdotal and personal - I don't know the code, and I've done no clinical trials. However, I'm fairly convinced that there definitely is an xp gain from stone, and you can actually get more or less the same as you do from damage xp. I believe that if you are in the room and actively fighting the monster when your stoneskin is protecting the tank, you get XP based on the damage it protects the tank from. I've certainly "notched" xp in this way - check score every so often, in a fight, doing no damage but just assisting and stoning, and see it jump from 39% to 40%, for instance.

The XP tables seem fairly harsh, but the power you get at the end makes up for that. Hey, wait a second, isn't that what being a mage is all about? A hard slog to get there but huge rewards at the end. Personally I think Vokers are boring and very limited, I love chanting ;-)

-shalath
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Postby Ambar » Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:08 am

2 chanters .. lvl 47 and 48
2 clerics lvl 41 and 50
2 shaman lvl 27(?) and lvl 50 (ogre)
2 mentalists lvl 50 and lvl 26
multiple warriors 46 on down

chanter isnt hard .. try being solo stoner/healer on ship as an ogre shaman (BEFORE prioritize went in) ... gotta learn who to haste .. and who to stone .. if the bard cant escape their happy ass out on a switch .. they need another class :P yes engaging the mob seems to help with stonage exp ..
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Postby Lenefir » Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:40 am

As said above, yes, I do believe you get exp from the damage the stone protects against as I seem to recall I got a level while being in the room with the tank. I might have been casting something, blur I think, but I did not do any damage at the time. But you do have to be in the room, and possibly also engaged in the battle.

Also, in my opinion, at some point you have to learn to ignore people crying, whining and bitching for haste. If you have all your spells memmed up all the time, sure, casting haste is not a problem, but if you already have problems keeping at least one stone/scale memmed all the time, you really should prioritize that over casting haste. It's a tradeoff I guess... If you keep haste up, they kill the mobs faster, but you get less time to mem back your spells and end up being a ping pong ball or something... If you don't haste, exp will most likely be slower, but you should most likely be able to be more or less fully memmed with your priority spell(s) all the time. Also, again in my opinion, you should prioritize the order which you cast your spells on the different classes. Like, haste is nice for a tank, but it's much more useful for a rogue. And casting haste on a tank against a cold- or fireshielded mob is asking yourself to work harder to keep stone/scale up (unless an elementalist with ward is around). Oh, and for all you rogues out there whining about not being globed the moment you hit a shielded mob: Go die! Or learn not to use autoassist triggers all the time :P Globe usually takes 6 seconds to cast, and if there was no warning from the group (leader), or if the globes dropped in mid-fight, you think of the time it takes to put it back on all the hitters/tanks :P

Anyway, I'll stop rambling and ranting now...
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Postby daggaz » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:33 pm

Considering the powerful benefits of this class, especially their place as one of the prime soloing classes, they really ought to be one of the hardest to xp. Having said that, I have to say they arent really all that hard, if you do things right.

1.Get -100 ac.
2.Get -100 ac.
3.Get -100 ac. I really cant stress this enough.

4.Learn how to use your spells to solo mobs that are much higher level than you. Learn how to hit mobs while taking minimal damage. I wont tell you how.

5.Explore the realms and find the mobs that are good solo enchanter targets that give good xp. They are out there in places....have to look.

6.Until group xp is fixed, solo everything or at most, group with one person who gives you what you need.

I soloed my way until my forties, where i found grouping was faster until i got a few constricts, at which point i began soloing again. It went by rather quickly... I was soloing ship mobs at lvl 36 for insane xp...if you are smart you can figure that out too. Just takes a bit of time. At lower levels I only cast defensive magic and I meleed most mobs to death. There is quite a bit of hitroll eq and even damroll eq for mages if you check the midlevel tiers.

If you are going to complain about anything about enchanters, complain about the dragonscales quest. Having to kill four named dragons is rediculously hard these days, even if it is the best spell in game. Especially when one of the dragons is highly sought after for half a dozen other quests already, and rare. And if you an evil enchanter? Well, heh, good bleepin luck. Evils won't be seeing any new scalers for a very long time, I imagine.Too bad.
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Postby Lilira » Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:45 pm

Ambar wrote:wn
and who to stone .. if the bard cant escape their happy ass out on a switch .. they need another class :P


*GASP* PERISH THE THOUGHT!!!

A Bard actually XPing at the keys?? OMG! We wouldn't want that to happen now.

(BTW.. in case anyone missed it.. my fave alt is a bard.. Yes I'm being sarcastic)

I'm working on testing a theory now. No more memming out for XP. I'll know in a couple hours how well its working. Thanks for the input everyone!
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:35 pm

Well..hmm, where to start

L50 elementalist, voker, druid, necromancer, etc. Chanter is by far the worst. Druid wasn't really that bad for me. As you prolly saw on another post, I was doing testing. On a tavern bouncer, I went melee for the hell of it. Went from 31% to 36 from damage xp, then on death, I gained 1 f'g %. That's where you're screwed. Your JOB is support/utility, so damage xp is down the drain. Also, this class is totally overworked and underpaid, given the preceeding example. I also had someone else beat the bouncer up where he was awful, then I finished. AGAIN 1%. It's consistant. With spells like fumble (again look at other post) and lost damage xp, this is pretty rough. I'm not trying to be on a soap box, but other mages do get it better. I would like ask that stone/haste that cause and prevent other's damage would reflect as an invoker's damage xp for us.
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Postby Lilira » Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:25 am

Thil.

Grouped with two rangers and a 49th rogue. I started at 40-something%, but I only started "trending" when I was at 51%.

13 kills later, I was 10% higher. Yeah, its a long slog uphill, but I'm getting there. I simply did not mem out. Lucky for me, the group was with old friends & my husband, so they were tolerant. Will be interesting to see what happens if I decide to hold my stones hostage for mem times. If that means I have to solo or rely only on old tolerant friends to get to a zoneable level, so be it.

Lil
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby kiryan » Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:28 am

My invoker is being pleveld by laurel's ranger. I've probably cast all of 35 spells in 31 levels so comparing your level 22 to my 31 is suspect to say the least. Your probably also not taking into account the # of hours I played.

However, without a doubt in a group setting cleric (exping with a stoner/displacer), shaman (stoning and hasting) and enchanter (stoning and hasting) are the worst. As the group size grows, even if the kill speed goes up the cleric/enchanter/shaman do worse exp because they receive the majority of their exp from split of kill exp, the "bonus" just isn't enough at present to overcome additional group members beyond 3 or 4.

All of the classes that level the fastest are damage oriented and spend the majority of every fight engaged with the mobs .

Something else to think about, even though cleric/enchanter/shaman might level more "slowly" under similar circumstances than other classes... Its fairly easy to get into exp groups. necromancer is probably the class that takes the longest and requires the most effort to level followed by elementalist (until level 31).

some notes:

If a cleric is exping without a defensive caster, the additional heal exp helps to the tune of 4% an hour at high level... If an enchanter is allowed to cast primarily damage spells and is in room primarily they gain 4% an hour additional from damage and stone exp at high level. If a shaman only heals or only stones (and someone handles the other portion of the job) they manage an extra 2-4% an hour from damage exp.

my anti paladin was getting 1% per hit from 1-14 from damage exp. Even if casters get the same amount of exp from damage... it takes them 20-30 seconds to regain that spell where the "hitter" is always hitting.

Enchanter and invoker grouped together, neither casting spells, leveled at very close to the same rate up through 31.

smoke is one of the worst things to ever happen to exp imo. it skewed the rate at which invokers level, and reduced the average size of invoker exp groups. Instead of needing a tank and a healer/stoner (3-4 man) all you need is a tank/healer (2 man).

sadly, khanjari is the best thing that ever happened to enchanter exp.
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Postby Ambar » Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:38 am

decided not to post .. buahaha
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Postby Vigis » Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:49 am

Figured I'd throw my 1 cent (I'm not good enough for two :p ) in here.
Seems to me that the melee classes seem to be group dependent for xp as they get higher level.
Vigis was able to solo quite easily into the high 30's (for those of you who don't know, this is a new Vigis rather than a restore. ..I deleted the Vigis from Soj3 shortly after the split then decided to come back about 6 or 7 months later). Around level 38 it became damned near impossible to solo, so I had to form xp groups to get him bigger.

I recently rolled a shaman, he pretty much sucked for solo xp up until about level 36. I was in a ship group tonight that I would have drooled over as a hitter or a warrior. 1% per kill, each kill taking about 3 minutes. However, before I joined that group, I was soloing mobs that were giving me 5% per kill for about a 5 minute fight. . .do the math.

Enchanters are not supposed to be an easy class to play, you have a lot of demands placed upon you. Personally, I'd rather have a person who learned how to play their character and exploit the advantages that they have rather than somebody who leveled up easily, never learned exactly what their spells do, and are level 50 anyway.

When people were complaining about rogue xp tables being too easy, they finally got changed. However, we now have the Khanjari. Somebody (I forget who) said it best in a thread about adding new channels for the players:

Khanjari #1 (whatever the number was) Elite Khanjari Channel: This guy wielding me has no idea how to play his class!

Khanjari #2 (whatever the number was) That's okay, he doesn't have to PROC! PROC! PROC! PROC!

Enchanters are to a group like a khanjari is to a rogue. . if you don't have one, you probably aren't going to get very far.

I respect high level enchanters because of the dedication they have put into their character. That respect is what causes me to trust them when they tell the leader that all the tanks are spelled. As a class that is completely dependent upon enchanters to stay alive in a zone, I would prefer that their xp tables stay the same.

If enchanter xp tables were made easier, I think it would be harder to form groups. I might be subscribing to extremist opinions here, but look at it this way:
Turgy tells you 'Seelie?'
You tell Turgy 'Hell yeah! Wait, who you have as chanters?'
Turgy tells you 'Weren't many on, grabbed Somelilnoobie'
You tell Turgy 'He any good?'
Turgy tells you 'Dunno, haven't really zoned with him.'
You tell Turgy 'Damn it! GF just called me! Turns out I forgot I was supposed to take her to Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory! I'm sorry bro, you know I'd go with you if I could!'

Note, all names have been changed to reflect somebody you know :p

After the rambling discourse, the point stays the same. Enchanters NEED to be difficult to level because zone groups can't live without one.
Nerox tells you 'Good deal, the other tanks I have don't wanna do it, and since your my special suicidal tank i figure you don't mind one bit!'

Alurissi tells you 'aren't you susposed to get sick or something and not beable to make tia so i can go? :P'
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Postby Selias » Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:42 pm

As an enchanter who left the game for a bunch of months I noticed how hard chanting is. I used to be pretty good at it, timing spells, watching walkins, etc., but now it's tough work!

I completely agree with Vigis on this one. The high tables need to be in place to ensure a certain level of competence. I'm not insinuating that one can't plevel an enchanter, but consider how most zones and xp runs look to an enchanter.

XP group:
Gormal tells you 'Spell up wussie!"
cas 'dragons' Gormal
cas 'dragons' Vandic
cas 'dragons' Kajib
*
cas 'globe' Gormal
cas 'globe' Vandic
cas 'globe' Kajib
cas 'globe' Weylarii
*
cas 'blur' Gormal
cas 'blur' Vandic
cas 'blur' Kajib
*
cas 'haste' Weylarii

Gormal tells you 'haste be bish'
Kajib tells you 'got a haste?'
Vandic tells you 'haste meh pls!'

moan

cas 'haste' Gormal
cas 'haste' Kajib
cas 'haste' Vandic



Zone Group
Gormal tells you 'Spell up wussie!"
cas 'time stop'
cas 'dragons' Gormal
cas 'dragons' Vandic
cas 'dragons' Kajib
*
cas 'globe' Gormal
cas 'globe' Vandic
cas 'globe' Kajib
cas 'globe' Weylarii
*
cas 'blur' Gormal
cas 'blur' Vandic
cas 'blur' Kajib
*
cas 'haste' Weylarii
cas 'haste' Gormal
cas 'haste' Kajib
cas 'haste' Vandic

My point is that they're very similar, so doing lots of xp does prepare an enchanter for certain situations in zones. Mainly, to cast as many spells as fast as possible.
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Postby Ambar » Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:11 pm

rofl if it was as easy as casting spells fast

its HOW you cast spells

any robot can cast spells .. a REAL enchanter knows when to do so ..

the tables are fine as-is .. they SHOULD be higer to searate the folks who just need their nth lvl 50 from those who ENJOY a class

o by the way just cause you have 10k lvl 50's doesnt mean you are proficient at them .. got i hate pleveled characters! a lvl 50 mage with a 50 skill at qc is worse than the pleveled warrior with zero rescue skill :P
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:44 pm

Yeah, competence and skill are not related at all with someone who can mindlessly xp and get a level anyway. There is no association between the two. I think it's a bunch of crap for memming out, cuz you don't get the xp for the stones, so I'm told. You typically HAVE to mem out. So again, re-examine the way xp is handed out to enchanters. Vokers get their niche from damage xp. Chanters are SUPPOSED to get xp from stone but dammit, you have to mem out for most fights, while tank is getting whacked away. Mob death xp alone isn't crap typically.
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Postby kiryan » Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:33 pm

Ambar I hope you weren't talking about my ability to play any of my alts or their skill levels. With the exception of most rogue skills and mount block, my characters are all very highly skilled in the necessary areas.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Lenefir » Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:47 am

I usually cast(ed) haste before globe if possible, but I guess your preferences may vary... That is, when I do cast haste ;-P
"Being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you; and if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch [...]. When you do things right, people won't be sure you have done anything at all"

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Ambar
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Postby Ambar » Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:56 pm

kiryan wrote:Ambar I hope you weren't talking about my ability to play any of my alts or their skill levels. With the exception of most rogue skills and mount block, my characters are all very highly skilled in the necessary areas.



why do you assume I was referring to you :)

guilty conscience?
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Postby Lilira » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:47 pm

Selias wrote:XP group:
Gormal tells you 'Spell up wussie!"
cas 'dragons' Gormal
cas 'dragons' Vandic
cas 'dragons' Kajib
*
cas 'globe' Gormal
cas 'globe' Vandic
cas 'globe' Kajib
cas 'globe' Weylarii
*
cas 'blur' Gormal
cas 'blur' Vandic
cas 'blur' Kajib
*
cas 'haste' Weylarii

Gormal tells you 'haste be bish'
Kajib tells you 'got a haste?'
Vandic tells you 'haste meh pls!'

moan

cas 'haste' Gormal
cas 'haste' Kajib
cas 'haste' Vandic


You forgot the mem out cus the XP train won't give you time to do that.. oh and the coming in after the kill cus noone has their condition triggers on. THAT is the reason why XPing an enchanter in groups takes so long.

Me and ranger today.. I tanked, he arched. Killing DS treants. I averaged 2.5% a kill. I memmed after each kill. Keeps your heart racing cus its basically can we kill this thing before it kills us? It worked though. BTW, I started at 76% and levelled to 0%. This took about 2 hours.

This is the first character I've ever had where I have become obsessed with XP. *laugh* I'm writing down my % after each kill and trending it. I've never done that.

Yes. XP for Ench is hard. Guess what.. I'm learning how to play the class. Its all about HOW you XP. Soloing as an enchanter or only grouping with one person gives me the best XP chunks.. but its not gonna help me keep a 15 person group spelled. I'll be darned though if I bust my butt with a huge group for 1% every four kills if I can do better with just one other person. *shrug* Its all about personal preference. I do have a love/hate relationship with the class though. *grin* I WILL get this char to zonable level if its the last thing I do. *laugh*

Lil
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:22 pm

Could we _please_ get an admin or something's side on this?

Cleric is arguably as important as enchanter for zoning so I'm just wondering why things are as they are. Nobody is taking on the main fact that we get no damage xp, and lilira's right on there's a lot of ppl who won't call out conditions.

1. You don't get the compensation of damage xp other mages do in the form of 'stone/haste/blur'. You cast these spells and have to race back out to cast them yet again before they've worn off. You're not getting xp for having cast them cuz this 'stone' xp some people speak of isn't there cuz you're out memming.

2. This class is the most overworked, so if you are talking about 'well, xp is just fine cuz I say so, and it's always been this way, so dammit let's just leave it alone' If a class is so pivotal to zoning, why punish it so? The pbase is bad as it is, so just finding players xp'g and not zoning now is pretty damned hard. Sarell says the druid was hard to xp, which when I solo'g mine to 50, it was. I agree with him. Enchanter class is ungodly worse than that.

To point out in the last post, I want to ask coders or whatever to re-examin this rumor, true or not, of stoneskin giving you xp, and what good is it when the poor guy has to run out of the room and not gain a thing! There's nothing to learn in 8th circle seeing there's only four spells to cast. You get all your utility practice in the middle circles, save for scales. [So of course it's stone/blur/haste/and sometimes globe. I don't need 10000 hours of stupidity to learn that.] *shrug* (That leads to another argument of making 10th circle !fail because nothing blows more than lost concentrate on dscale when zoning etc.) People speak of playing enchanter to become masters. Until you can zone, you're fully missing out on the true aspect of the class. What is difficult is not knowing a safe room to memout, sure the leader calls it out, in a zone as a class you've not played before. I have 2 other mages at lvl 50 and they were nothing to level compared to chanter. It's not this damage xp really, considering my necro's pets do virtually all the damage. There's no way a necro's xp would be any worse than an invoker. (Someone earlier said voker's xp = enchanter's but that logic doesn't hold because voker is WAY easier to level) If it is this damage xp from voker vs. stone xp enchanter supposedly gains, then it's obvious chanter's xp tables are stupidly high.
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Postby Lahgen » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:29 pm

Was xping last night on ship with my own mid-level chanter (36), and here's my rambling 2c:

1. It helped that the tank was a paladin, because I could slack a little on buffs, not that I actively did so on a regular basis, so keep that in mind as you read. We had no cleric either, btw.

2. It also helped to haste the hitters in my own time, rather than when they wanted it. They were cool with that though, and when I was ready to haste them, I said 'stand by for haste' (they were rogues, they fled out to backstab and such).

3. You don't have to mem back everything, just enough for the battle. I generally memmed back a stone or a blur and some pwbs if I didn't have them.

4. PWB will allow you to stay in the room better for that all-important stone xp.

5. Again, don't try to mem back everything at once. Enough is as good as a feast, as they say.

6. One tip would be for enchanters to invest in some vit potions from GN, for some quick healing in an emergency. I got smacked around quite a few times because I didn't flee out quickly enough, good thing the tank had the heal spell for me. :p
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'
Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone
Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'

Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Lilira » Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:41 pm

But nowhere did you point out how much XP gain?

You said it was easy and didn't have to work toooooo hard.. but what kind of XP did you get?

Start trending like I've been doing then give input. I'm not posting to whine. I'm posting things I've honestly been tracking. BTW.. my enchanter is 39th for the record. Just barely got it this morning.

Lil


Edited for content. *snicker*
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Postby Lahgen » Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:22 pm

Well, for about an hour's work, possibly less, I went from 30ish into level to being levelled. Ended with 8 into that level.

I made sure to as much as possible stay actively engaged in battle and I was getting respectable xp, in my view. There were 5 people total, I think I got an average of 2 or 3 per kill.
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'

Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone

Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'



Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Ambar » Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:56 pm

think sub 40 is bad? wait til 46+

I agree with Lahgen .. you NEED to mem out .. no REAL xp train will wait for you, no zone group will let you mem every kill .. you have to learn what to cast and when and what to re-mem ... gotta also listen to the bitching from the warrior with 11 hit/dam and a non proccing weapon and why you wont haste him :P

not saying you arent doing the right thing .. only stating that some groups dont tolerate mages who cant mem out .. they like to keep killing ..

you can argue well if they dont let me mem after every kill i wont group ..

soon only your most ardent followers will group with you .. the higher enders wont cause they like xp trains that keep on chugging ...

learning what and when to cast is all about learning the class .. listen to those who have been there, just like littler bards may need to listen to YOU on how to lvl bards ...

at your present level while xping in DS you still should be gaining a lvl per every few hrs at least 1.5 per dayish ...
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Postby Raiwen » Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:21 am

I agree with both Ambar and Lahgen. Mem out. It's not easy. I and Ambar should know (ogre shamans). Being the only stoner and healer in the group really bites.. especially when you're excpected to hex and blind on top of that.

the prioritize command is your friend!
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Postby Lilira » Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:44 am

Trust me folks.. I know the memming out thing. *wink* I also have a 48 invoker.

I'm only talking for XP honest.

Also Ambar.. I stopped presuming to tell other people how to play their bards... if they ask me I give advice, other than that I let them work it out for themselves.

Anyone who knows me knows I hate, loathe, and despise XP. One reason my invoker is still 48th. *lol*
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:47 am

Thilindel wrote:1. You don't get the compensation of damage xp other mages do in the form of 'stone/haste/blur'. You cast these spells and have to race back out to cast them yet again before they've worn off. You're not getting xp for having cast them cuz this 'stone' xp some people speak of isn't there cuz you're out memming.



*sniff pout* this is the main thing that drives me nuts.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:57 am

Lilira wrote:Also Ambar.. I stopped presuming to tell other people how to play their bards... if they ask me I give advice, other than that I let them work it out for themselves.


thats what I meant hun :P If anyone needs bard advice they shouldnt go to a warrior ... go to people who play the class and listen to their advice ... I never presumed you tell them how to play the class, I said they may come to you, a higher level bard .. see? no insult meant .. hope it wasnt taken as such ..
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Postby Lilira » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:02 am

LOL! I'm so not easily offended Ambar.. I took no offense.
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Ambar » Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:19 am

good! *hug*
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Postby Eilorn » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:46 am

Okay, last exp in DS I was with paladin and ranger, paladin has avenger, so no need for healing. I engage, 2 rounds lag, cast constrict, switch, paladin rescues, I assist, repeat. With all the the engagement/assist lag I threw two, perhaps three offensive spells, plus blurs/hastes/stones and remems per mob. Maybe I shouldn't say anything, but, guard was nice, I stayed in melee and didn't have to assist and lose to lag, which is why I sometimes got three offenses off on a mob. Still, all in all, I probably lose 10% or more exp because of condition callers being lagged and I miss the mob death. For the longest time I never engaged (actually, until this thread) because I would lag from assists/engages, and I won't do it (engage mob) if it's not a cakewalk. My job is to keep the tanks and hitters doing their jobs... it'd be nice if exp reflected my doing my job, without adding more hurdles to it.

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-- Buffy, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:58 am

Heh. I'm kinda disappointed no gods input tho about the alternative xp besides damage that other mages get. Chanters are screwed and have to mem out *shrug* that's that.

Vokers, etc do their job, blow shit up. They get rewarded (damage xp) for it. Chanters do their job, stone/blur/haste. We passively prevent or cause damage with said stone/haste, respectively. Where's our reward? Death xp only, cuz we're too busy running our asses around.
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Postby Lilira » Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:02 am

Me and Necro (50th). We killed 25 level 55 mobs and I went from 8% to 48%. Only memmed out if I failed my PWBs.

The case grows for not memming out when doing ench xp.
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Postby Sarell » Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:20 am

Eilorn I suggest not assisting. You can still cast offense, especially in DS, just fine. I have never seen my chanter or shaman get stone exp but have actually leveled off damage exp on both.

Just for reference I still fully support removing all forms of exp bar kill exp so that the values in exp tables actually mean something.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:56 am

Not a really good comparison Lilira .. Necros can solo DS and a LOT of other things easily ... take a necro to smoke some time see how fast xp is ..

If you dont mem out, it slows things WAY down .. Look at the trend of this thread, the common factor being .. mem out!

Hil is SO right, without callers you lose out on TONS of xp

On the flip side, a chanter is a VERY powerful character .. the xp tables are FINE .. Once again, I have TWO high level chanters .. it isnt that bad, and the rewards at high end make up for the slower xp ...

Again, everyone has their own style, many dont like the power xp where it goes fast and you have to stay on your toes by knowing what to cast when .. but this was just my experience

Want it REAL fun? Do DS with a dual khanjari or dual BC rogue ....
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:11 am

Ambar wrote: Look at the trend of this thread, the common factor being .. mem out!

.... the xp tables are FINE ..


This is my point. Where is your reward for your stone, haste, etc. You're contributing to the fight, just as much as an invoker blowing the hell out of things. You get no xp because you run right back out. You are PENALIZED with this current system. XP Tables may be 'fine' but the way in which you are raped out of xp because you have to run out in order to keep mem'd up for rogues' haste/globe, and blur, etc for tanks is tedious and without reward(compensatory xp ie. damage xp for others).

Haste - You passively cause damage with this spell. You get no reward.
Blur/stone/scales/globe you prevent damage, but again you have to memout and no reward. I bet 10% or so in some groups I see You hear a death cry...and the other guys don't give a damn. More xp for them. 'Now haste me!' you see...*sigh*
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:15 am

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16324


Which class do you think is most overpowered?
Warrior
0% [ 0 ]
Ranger
10% [ 7 ]
Paladin
1% [ 1 ]
Anti-Paladin
0% [ 0 ]
Dire Raider
1% [ 1 ]
Rogue
35% [ 23 ]
Bard/Battlechanter
3% [ 2 ]
Cleric
1% [ 1 ]
Shaman
0% [ 0 ]
Druid
1% [ 1 ]
Enchanter
0% [ 0 ]
Illusionist
4% [ 3 ]
Invoker
7% [ 5 ]
Necromancer
0% [ 0 ]
Lich
1% [ 1 ]
Psionicist
1% [ 1 ]
Elementalist
21% [ 14 ]
None
6% [ 4 ]
All
0% [ 0 ]

Total Votes : 64

Somehow I'm not sold on 'Enchanters are a very powerful class' line.
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:23 am

Office manager tells Bob, the friendly enchanter, 'I'm sorry Bob. Suzy and Cal called in sick today, I need you to pick up their load. Oh, and you'll be working overtime and not being paid for it. Here, would you pick up my dry-cleaning while you're out?'

So, Bob leaves the office to do his overworked routine...

meanwhile

Manager hands out bonus paychecks to the other employees for outstanding work (read: their normal job)

Bob returns, tired and grumpy ..totally overworked - yet none the wiser...
and no damned paycheck!

Your blood freezes as you hear the death cry from Bob's xp!
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Postby Birile » Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:14 pm

I completely agree that enchanters are highly overworked in zones/exp and they definitely do get raped on exp while helping everyone else get more and more exp.

I particularly like the idea of giving passive exp to anyone who helps others get more exp through hasting capabilities. My bard would be level 70 right now if that were the case. :)

But enchanters are STILL powerful, and my poll was on which class you think is most overpowered, not powerful. So there.

Honestly, if enchanters had some way to heal other than using potions or a low-level healing charmed mob I would've rolled one over rolling my elementalist. I've seen people like Lenefir solo stuff and they're just amazing. (Hi Lenny)
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Postby Lilira » Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:40 pm

Ambar wrote:Want it REAL fun? Do DS with a dual khanjari or dual BC rogue ....


LAugh Ambar....

You're like the umpteenth person to tell me that... but I haven't seen any that offer! *wink*

Back to my rogue XP... keeps me sane while XPing enchanter. *grin*

Lil
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Postby Pril » Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:15 pm

Lilira wrote:
Ambar wrote:Want it REAL fun? Do DS with a dual khanjari or dual BC rogue ....


LAugh Ambar....

You're like the umpteenth person to tell me that... but I haven't seen any that offer! *wink*

Back to my rogue XP... keeps me sane while XPing enchanter. *grin*

Lil


Now that's a blatant lie Lili2(tm), I've offered a few times!

PrilZ0rs
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Postby Birile » Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:06 pm

Lilira wrote:You're like the umpteenth person to tell me that... but I haven't seen any that offer! *wink*


That's 'cause they only need an enchanter for two exp runs and then they're level 50. :P

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