Choking Palace Invasion

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Dalar
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Choking Palace Invasion

Postby Dalar » Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:58 am

A massive cornugon devil stands here menacingly.(Red Aura)
A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
A smoke mephit relaxes here.
A smoke mephit relaxes here.
An imposing griffon spreads her wings, awaiting her master.(Gold Aura)
An imposing griffon spreads her wings, awaiting her master.(Gold Aura)
A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
*A hideous mantoid with a spiked tail stalks about here.(Red Aura)
*A hideous mantoid with a spiked tail stalks about here.(Red Aura)
*A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
*A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
*A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
*A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
*A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
*An immense fiend with red skin and huge wings stands here.(Red Aura)
A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)
A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)


Discuss

ANYONE who has done BC can tell you this is almost impossible within 30 min. ANYONE.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:00 am

That's about 20 demons w/ glaives that gate in more. Assuming the max a tank can hold before his tanking skills diminish is 4, that's still way more than we can tank. Please don't use the "well the smoke mephits can help tank" because they don't.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Vigis » Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:13 am

Damn, knew I shoulda logged on tonight :(
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Postby Sarell » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:40 am

The fights in CP would be the hardest fights in the game even if you didn't have to defend one wussy mob. It makes the zone overly silly rather than the fun doable zone it should be. No point having new ideas about how zones can be constructed if you can't do said zones with the best groups on the game. Even if some of the humans / demons were grouped or followed a buit better. No way you can fight the major battle AND pick up stragglers with 15 people. Maybe some day someone will get lucky, however I highly doubt it, no one has come anywhere near close.
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Postby rylan » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:30 pm

Yeah the problem is even if the group can somehow survive the start of the demon wave, some mobs will pop past where you're defending or come in through a differant way and get to the king and kill him while you're fighting.

The first two waves are fun (though you can still get screwed by mobs magically popping/walking past the gates right to the king, but the 3rd is just plain silly.
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Postby Eilistraee » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:00 pm

Interestingly enough, there are more ways into a castle than just through the main doors.

Be that as it may, I do have plans to address Choking Palace, though obviously I won't go into details.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:29 pm

Well, theoretically, you can have one room where all the npcs load in. The room will have 6 exits which determines where they enter from. I think the entry points are the sewers, the roof, somewhere else. I'm guessing the main waves are loaded in a room with 2 exits where they can only go to the east or west gates.

Even then, the guards usually don't stop the mobs trying to sneak by because they suck.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby kiryan » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:37 pm

I still think its possible to win choking palace with a great group and a lot of luck.

In its current implementation I think it will take more than skill to win for better or worse.

Personally, I think you should leave it the way it is for a while longer.

The current player attempts at it haven't been well planned for the most part and often poorly executed. Generally half the groups have been pickup meaning your not even taking the effort to gather the "best" players available. The groups generally break down because of lack of coordination and/or lack of spank recovery occasionally from bad luck.

There has been very little experimentation with group makeup also. Look what experimentation + establishing zone familarity and knowledge did for BC.
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Postby rylan » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:53 pm

I dunno Kir, we had several attempts there for a while where we steamrolled the first two waves no problem and got trashed on the demon wave due to mobs breaking off from the main group and having to defend multiple positions.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:21 am

kiryan wrote:There has been very little experimentation with group makeup also. Look what experimentation + establishing zone familarity and knowledge did for BC.


BC was made into a complete joke compared with CHP. You talk about coordination etc., well after 8 hours of getting into BC, perhaps you wouldn't do so well coordinating either. The changes were made before you ever steamrolled the zone, remember that.

Maybe we can get a quest to make the demon wave into Sedawi, and also to eliminate the first two waves altogether. Then add some equipment from another zone, and randomly change stats on the items. Sounds great...


Here's some feedback:

There are over 50 demons in that wave before you factor in gating.

How often in any zone are you killing more than 1 demon at a time... rarely, and never more than 10.

Demons have far too many hitpoints even at middle levels. Even a 40th barbazu takes a lot of time to kill.

Spells like inferno may do great damage, but they still fall prey to the "outside blast radius" nonsense. For 15 mobs @ a time, you are damaging roughly half(?) each time, if you are lucky.

The challenge would remain still if the number of mobs was reduced by half, maybe even 3/4's. 15 demons vs. 15~18 would be an awesome fight. As it stands now, you have no chance.

!!x
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Postby Siw » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:02 am

kiryan wrote:I still think its possible to win choking palace with a great group and a lot of luck.


I'm gonna have to completely disagree with you and say that CHP is impossible in its current state no matter how great a group you think you have, its composition, or luck. I think I've been in every CHP attempt and can say this with confidence.

Its not possible to fight 20-32 demons at once, or even kill that number in the limited amount of time before the next wave. Demons are tough, especially those with glaives, and even more so when you have a caster among them constantly clouding. The tanks can't rescue fast enough nor tank more than a few rounds while numerous bleed procs stack up, casters won't deal enough damage to even take them to small wounds or keep tanks alive, and melee is completely ineffective against that number of demons. In BC you'd run when a second squad enters and can rest up and regroup. In CHP demon wave, you lose a single tank and its all over.

CHP is still the coolest zone on the MUD, and I look forward to future attempts when its fixed. *cough 75 percent reduction in number of demons cough*
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Postby jalahon » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:13 am

hrmmm.... group experimentation is a great idea. Next run=14 rangers and 1 illusionist![/quote]
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Postby belle » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:53 am

Love the zone/idea. But I agree in its current state the zone isn't possible for 1 group. Dalar's first post must have got cut off, cause I've routinely seen 3x that many in a single room. Experiment, cut the demon wave by 50%, I still think that wave might be too difficult.
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Postby Vigis » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:50 am

belle wrote:Love the zone/idea. But I agree in its current state the zone isn't possible for 1 group. Dalar's first post must have got cut off, cause I've routinely seen 3x that many in a single room. Experiment, cut the demon wave by 50%, I still think that wave might be too difficult.


If we were to experiment by cutting the load 50% I'd be all for it as long as it was ONLY as an experiment. Don't let the rewards load. We still haven't seen what can come out of a successful CHP run and I sure as heck don't want it to be reduced too far and have the group clean house and get all the loot then have it changed a bit more in order to bring the risk vs reward up to par.

I haven't been in every CHP attempt, but I've been in quite a few and would willingly test Belle's idea. I just don't think it would be fair to put in the loot during an "experiment".

As an aside, I REALLY love the zone and think the idea is awesome. I think it compares to SPoB in a way (at least for tanks). There is very little risk of losing your corpse and, as a tank, you lose less xp than a SPoB run usually costs. After all, once you are killed, you are lucky to get a second chance by being ressed. There have been only a few times where I have died and recovered from ress enough to actually move in order to help against the next wave.
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Oh please

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:08 pm

Jalahon wrote:

"hrmmm.... group experimentation is a great idea. Next run=14 rangers and 1 illusionist!"


WHENEVER YOU WANT. :)

Spob?

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Postby Lahgen » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:21 pm

Are there even 14 regular ranger players on the mud?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:28 pm

I'm like... 3 of them, you know.
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Postby Pril » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:39 pm

Lahgen wrote:Are there even 14 regular ranger players on the mud?


Teflor
Lorsalian
Adriorn
Belleshel (if forwarned about a zone)
Sylvos
Weylarii (depending on rl issues)

Those are people with rangers as mains other people who have high level rangers:

Kiryan
Pidi
Turgy
Sotana

I'm sure there are more i'm forgetting. But it's possible to form a 14 ranger 1 ill group if ya wanted.

Pril

Also Twyl and Thalidyrr. God you two whine alot when people forget you by mistake :p

There's 12 right there 8 of which are prime rangers.
Last edited by Pril on Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:53 pm

*bird*
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Postby Botef » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:47 pm

vigis wrote:There have been only a few times where I have died and recovered from ress enough to actually move in order to help against the next wave.


Soul Walk.
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Postby Vigis » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:40 pm

Haven't always had a necro in the group, but you're right, I shouldn't have left that out.

Even with Soul Walk though, if more than 1 tank dies there is very little chance of holding the waves until they can get back.
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Postby Sarell » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:30 am

Great idea on removing all the items from teh zone and trying some different wave makups vigis! I'd be there to smite for sure! Would be a shame to hand out items during the testing only to have them nuked later or become the only items in the game, attained unwholesomely AKA magma.

Remove items, drop 1 demon per run until we get it done! then add 5 more demons! *grins*.

Are you sure people have actually cleared the human run before the king is dead?
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Postby Salen » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:25 am

I was a part of a completely clear human run prior to demons coming...


BTW, after it was all over, I pris'd the final room just to see the pretty colors then the Welcome to Toril message... 30+ mobs = must pris
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Postby kiryan » Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:31 am

i steam rolled BC with melee before the main change (door not lokcing so insanely) was made... It was taking 1 spank per dead mob and when we started taking melee we were getting 2 or 3 mobs per spank which still lessend the runs from 7-10 to 3-4. The reason why melee works so well in BC is because of MR. With invokers, you had to get a curse and a flux landed to be able to really effectively kill and your probably doing 50% less damage because of MR even with curse and flux, with rogues/rangers you just need to haste/globe them before hand and you do consistent predictable damage.

group experimentation.

i did say group experimentation but I did not say group experimentation with melee. Has anyone tried bring 5, 6, 7 invokers? has anyone tried 2 or 3 enchanters? Has anyone tried 3 groups of (war, cleric, enc, 2x invoker)? Has anyone tried actually finding people who are capable of executing runs without dieing?

has anyone tried a melee group? i doubt it would work, but no one thought it would work at BC either and now its the dominant tactic.

new tactics.

has anyone tried single targetting the leader of each wave and just doing runs? In particular... I don't the initial demon wave even has any healers from what I could tell...
has anyone tried singing song of sorcery instead of slow?
has anyone tried banshee wail + black light burst?
has anyone tried 3 paladins with faiths and avengers)?

... theres two ways to mitigate damage, heals/stones or kill the mobs faster. can you really say anyone's tried a heavily defensive group... or a heavy offensive group...

CR's have never been well coordinated... has any group ever had a dedicated enchanter to pop people back to smoke? not in the group but stays on prime and timestop, relocate, fly, hand dead person a pipe gate smoke?...

zone knowledge.

How many people acutally know the whole zone? Its !agro 99% of the time, but how many of you have actually walked or mapped the upper levels or anything other than east and west of gates and north and south of throne?

luck.

on the demon wave I've seen waves where there are only 12 mobs in the first room. Other times the first time I see the first wave its 20 mobs. My guess is that depending on how things pop and which rooms things walk sometimes multiple groups link up or enter the same roon at the same time. When you have 20-30 demons walk out together yes your screwed, but if your lucky get a small wave and jump it immediately you have a chance.

one trip we parad the main leader and coudl've had a good chance of doing some significant damage if it didn't take 15 minutes to get corpses dragged and people back in zone memd. By the time we got CR'd the main demon wave was 30 or 40 deep....
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Postby kiryan » Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:42 am

A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)

this mob conned pretty low I believe, less than 45? and actually a lot of the mobs in the demon wave con pretty low, but look super scary... if there arent any healer types in the demon wave, might try a whole crap load of pwbs (banshee wail first)....

however, I still think you should try single targetting the leader in the demon wave.
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Postby jalahon » Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:55 am

As far as group experimentation goes...yes I think I have done some. I've used a majority of melee on a few runs, and i've tried the 3+ invoker runs...getting anymore than 3 invokers puts strain on already strained support classes (remember, the PC's arent the only ones who need to be spelled for this zone...about 21+ mephits need constant rolling spells as well since we cant predict where things will pop)...I've found a nice mix that I think will eventually be successful if things change to a more manageable load/pace.

Targetting the leader is a nice idea, however the leaders of the orc wave and the human wave have much more hp than any of the followers....and we have trouble killing 1 or 2 of the possible 20+ demons that have been loading on initial wave. The tanks couldnt even live for us to do a 2 spell run...all 8 of the fully spell mephits were dead even quicker...I watched one of the paladin tanks take about 7 bleed procs in 1 round. As it stands, how can u expect to do any subsequent damage when those 8 fully spelled 3k hp mephits are all gone almost instantaneously and all u have to rely on is the PC tanks?...

Zone knowledge definately comes into play...the gatehouses are the main focus of the group's attention, but there are little things that I have certain people in the group dedicated to watching...I've been leading roughly the same group of players, (switching around alts to test group composition effect) and they are very adept at what they do.

Regardless, I've tried several times as chp is my current favorite zone (and obsession over my short lived school break) and I will keep on trying because it makes me think, unlike many other zones where there is a recipe for success...but I don't think it's doable in its current state
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Postby Gormal » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:05 am

CHP is too hard. I pity the first group that earns those rewards.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:52 pm

Tasan wrote:*bird*


I agree.
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Postby Gura » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:52 pm

Gormal wrote:CHP is too hard. I pity the first group that earns those rewards.


gormal 1. areas 0.
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Postby Tasan » Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:57 am

kiryan wrote:A humanoid, fangs protruding above a beard glares about.(Red Aura)

this mob conned pretty low I believe, less than 45? and actually a lot of the mobs in the demon wave con pretty low, but look super scary... if there arent any healer types in the demon wave, might try a whole crap load of pwbs (banshee wail first)....

however, I still think you should try single targetting the leader in the demon wave.


The tanks last all of 4 maybe 5 rounds against that many mobs, regardless of spells.

That is not enough time to get more than 3 pwb's off/person, and regardless of how many you get off, 1 at least will get MR'd.

As I said before, there are FAR too many mobs in the wave, or the wave needs to be broken into multiple waves. It's simple numbers, and attrition will kill your group immediately if the wrong members die.
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Postby Elet » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:34 pm

Pril wrote:
Lahgen wrote:Are there even 14 regular ranger players on the mud?


Teflor
Lorsalian
Adriorn
Belleshel (if forwarned about a zone)
Sylvos
Weylarii (depending on rl issues)

Those are people with rangers as mains other people who have high level rangers:

Kiryan
Pidi
Turgy
Sotana

I'm sure there are more i'm forgetting. But it's possible to form a 14 ranger 1 ill group if ya wanted.

Pril



errr i got high level dire raide... aint it make me a ranger too?
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Postby kiryan » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:10 pm

It is broken into multiple waves. I've seen the initial wave pop < 12. Sometimes the waves seem to combine which is why I say even a highly skilled group will require luck to win.
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Postby jalahon » Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:11 pm

I also saw a run with an initial demon pop of about 12...which was followed quickly after (less than 45 seconds) by a joining squad of 8 barbazus.
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Postby torkur » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:18 am

Have you tried minor creating shields and weapons for the mephits?

I haven't done CP, nor do I currently have the freetime to try, but it looks fun. From the logs it looks impossible or damn near, but if the mephits are flagged warrior as it seems, a shield and weapon would add shieldblock/parry/riposte to their defensive skills and help them tank alot better. You could then use more chanters/healers to keep them up and focus less on heavy tanking.

Not sure if you've tried it, but it's a thought anyways......
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Postby Lilira » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:41 pm

As for the swift group recovery.. the past two times I've gone with Jala we had a necro to swalk us back so recovery was pretty quick. Still mages... death mems....

I typically hop back up, grab clouds, force missiles, detect invis, Swarms and fernos then rock on. *shrug*

If we could just get the silly king to move... *snicker*
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Postby Lahgen » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:20 am

Can the mephits even use shields and armor? They're wraithform aren't they?
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Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby torkur » Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:13 am

Are they smoke plane mephits or other types? That would matter alot, yes.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:11 am

lvl 40 mephits that don't even stop mobs sometimes
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Sarell » Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:19 am

I don't think group recovery is very relevant in CP, you die once it's over. If you have a necro out CRing, and whoever died, you're already 2 down, if it was one tank that died the rest are gone in a second, if it was a support caster your tanks are about to die, if it was a damage dealer, well it doesn't matter cos no group of 15 can win anyhow.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:01 am

I always figured you'd have to do runs on the demon wave...

no way can you have enough area damage to handle human wave then try to go toe to toe with MR demons equipped with glaives...

if your doing runs someone is bound to die and getting them back into the cycle asap would be a good thing... but most groups i've been in ignored the call for runs and stayed in and died on the first charge.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:04 pm

Odds of dying to do runs is too high. Anyone who's ever done the BC front gates will know this.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:02 pm

Do any mobs in the invasion track players they are hostile to, or do they just make a bee-line straight for the mob they are supposed to kill without every stopping except if engaged by players?

Do any of the invasion mobs heal self? That is, are any of the boss mobs cleric mobs that will heal self before continuing on towards their target objective?

Do the lesser invasion mobs follow any boss mobs? Or do they all just go on their own pre-programmed route?

Are there any boss mobs, or leaders, within each invasion wave that the other mobs follow?

If an invasion wave is stopped, is it because you area'd every mob, or is it because they are all aggressive to players, and stop to kill you?

-=-=-=-

I ask these questions because the times I have done CP it was always the same tactic despite the leader (good or evil), which was: Run in and area nuke everything as fast as possible and hope we live.

So I'm wondering if anyone has attempted to divine which of the mobs leads the others in each invasion, and attempted to major para them to stop the invasion in it's tracks, and then doing runs or picking off the mobs as necessary?
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Postby Dalar » Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:25 pm

How do you do runs on a group of 13 demons with glaives? High probability your tanks will die, then your group lags and more demons appear and woop your ass.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Eilistraee
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Postby Eilistraee » Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:30 pm

There have been some changes made to the zone, both from the defender's abilities and behaviors, and the makeup and abilities of the attackers.

I will watch each run that I know of closely, and see how the changes affect matters. Many complaints, both in this thread and others, have been considered and addressed. I'm open to other discussion as well, through mudmail, email or catch me online.

This is a zone approach that hasn't been done before, and I'm trying to be reactive to feedback I receive within reason.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:52 pm

I guess this solves the never ending question of who beta tests zones.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Marthammor » Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:36 pm

We can't exactly beta test zones with a full 15 person group before the zone actually makes its way into the game. The best we can do it get 3-4 people together to try to test some things and guess at the others.

And no, we won't be grabbing players and letting them run through zones on testmud. You think there are god leaks now? It would be even worse if that were to happen, not to mention the cries of favoritism/god pets/ect.

Besides, the entire game is one big beta test. Figured everyone knew this since new code and areas are always coming in.
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:47 pm

What I LOVE about Chp is that it's exciting and pretty chaotic so far

What I HATE is it's to date only lost xp and was told it's longest zone in game that is undefeated.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:58 pm

Marthammor wrote:We can't exactly beta test zones with a full 15 person group before the zone actually makes its way into the game. The best we can do it get 3-4 people together to try to test some things and guess at the others.

And no, we won't be grabbing players and letting them run through zones on testmud. You think there are god leaks now? It would be even worse if that were to happen, not to mention the cries of favoritism/god pets/ect.

Besides, the entire game is one big beta test. Figured everyone knew this since new code and areas are always coming in.


1) You could have loaded it to see how many demons were loading and how they acted.

2)You could have botted 3-4 players per person and tried to see how long you could stay alive. This would have at least shown you that the demon wave was incredibly difficult.

3) Knowing how other zones work is also a key factor in testing. Going on ONE BC run would have been sufficient. A group that can kill Bel in 2-3 runs still takes all of its energy and spells doing 6 gate guards. What makes you think they can take on double the numbers?

4) Do this for IC2 and magma and someone might actually attempt it. Many of us are tired of being beta testers with 0 god help. If you want us to beta test, then pull some strings like god resses and shit.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:28 pm

Perhaps there is only one mob to defeat in the wave?
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
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Postby Marthammor » Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:36 pm

1) You could have loaded it to see how many demons were loading and how they acted.

Pretty sure Dugmaren knew how many demons loaded and how they acted when he chose to load that many of that particular type.

2)You could have botted 3-4 players per person and tried to see how long you could stay alive. This would have at least shown you that the demon wave was incredibly difficult.

Botting 3-4 players can not come close to a group of 15 individual people skilled in their chosen class.

3) Knowing how other zones work is also a key factor in testing. Going on ONE BC run would have been sufficient. A group that can kill Bel in 2-3 runs still takes all of its energy and spells doing 6 gate guards. What makes you think they can take on double the numbers?

You can not compare doing runs against a group of mobs to doing one fight against a group of mobs straight up.

4) Do this for IC2 and magma and someone might actually attempt it. Many of us are tired of being beta testers with 0 god help. If you want us to beta test, then pull some strings like god resses and shit.

I'd love to be around while you guys attempt to go through a zone and do resses and the like, unfortunately, my work schedule doesn't allow that and the forgers might not allow it either (would likely depend on the situation of course).

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