Evil Humans grouping with Evil Races

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daggaz
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Evil Humans grouping with Evil Races

Postby daggaz » Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:41 pm

Ok you all know Im a terrible racist against humans (the weakest of all races), but let it here be said that this thread is strictly !RP.

I keep hearing it mentioned that letting evil humans group with evilraces was meant to save evil pbase. Let me hereby declare (imo) that the result is quite the opposite.

Currently I would count less than a handful of goody evil humans among the additions to evilrace zoning groups. And these are only occasionally helping us out.

On the otherhand, there are many, many, more evils who have decided to roll an evil human. Why? Well, now they can supposedly (they THINK!) have their cake and eat it, too. They get to play with the goodies, who have a vastly superior pbase and zone all the time, with the flawed idea that they can easily hop in to play evil if anything gets going that day.

Problem. If evil pbase was hurting before, its fuggin dead! now. Im lucky to scrounge ten decent players to roll a zone. You are all out their playing goodytwoshoes humans. (or just not playing at all). =( Even half my guild, at any one time (and we are the only surviving, active evil guild) is on as their goody alt. SO the end result is, there is rarely anything going on over here, no matter how hard we try to rally the troops. And if there were, chances are you are off doing something with the goodies, like izans or seelies or....god forbit, xping in DS. (yeah i clair some of you who say you are too busy).

Some of the most prominent remaining evil players are out there right now, rolling and xping goodies!!! What in the hell pbase do you think is going to be there to assist? Right now we have a surge of evil n00bs and we need you all back here more than ever to keep it going.

If you truly want to help evils. IF you truly prefer playing evil. then QUIT playing a human and log your evil and do something, anything, down on our side. JUST PLAY EVIL. Its the only way to make things better.

I have gotten so many evils to tog anon OFF, I help every new player I see, I have even convinced some goodies to join the darkside, but nothing, NOTHING, will help evil pbase except evils playing their evil characters.

The whole idea about, i am just one person, i wont make a difference, is absolutely FALSE. With every person who logs an evil instead of human, there is one more person ready to play with me and the others in zones, and one more person to attract that other person, and so on... its feedback, guys. It can be negative or positive. Please if you really care, lets make it positive.

Otherwise its the end of us all.

I really wish humans were never allowed to zone with us (even just for RP purposes----disgusting, except maybe liches) but at this point...I cant even be sure stopping the situation would make things worse. You would probably all just remain in human form. So it seems the only way to save evils is to play evil.

-Daggaz, Evil forever.
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Postby Yayaril » Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:50 am

8)

You too will be assimilated.

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Postby kiryan » Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:05 am

its been discussed.

Your right, it sounded like a great idea, but the actual results were opposite.

However, now there is not much if anythin that can be done. If you want people to play evils there has to be a reason. Since you can't claim zone groups or "superior" execution or leaders or players you have nothing to offer.

you want an idea to revitalize evils? implement evil race only quasi artifacts.
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Postby Vigis » Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:52 am

Almost every person I have ever introduced to this MUD has started out as an evil unless I am there when they roll.

Evil races are attractive to new players until they learn how to "who evil".

You are right Daggaz, allowing evil and neutral humans to group with evils led to the extinction of evil races.

I think it would be a hell of a good thing to have "who evil" show neutral and evil aligned humans if we are going to keep them that way. I had a few friends try to play, they chose trolls or ogres because they were not too involved in RP games in the past. As soon as they got a few levels, they learned how to do a "who evil" and realized that nobody was around to play or help them. Instead of rolling goodies, they just quit playing.

I have rolled up a few different characters that can hang out in Scardale just to try helping the !decked person, but my main is Vigis and he can't group with them later.

It is my opinion that we need to allow "who evil" to show evil and neut humans in the list or go back to the days of outcasts.
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Postby Sarell » Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:08 pm

"You are right Daggaz, allowing evil and neutral humans to group with evils led to the extinction of evil races. "

There was 0 evils before this change, there are 0 now, I cannot see how anyone backs up this comment other that far fetched wonder.

Daggaz is not right enough, you do need one person, you need some leaders, who log on regularly and smite. I have found I can get an evil group any time I like during regular primetime. Admittedly they arn't always of the best calibre, they are of the best group makeup, they just arn't experienced enough at zoning, following orders and the importance of not being AFK for Kerdel, outside of DK.

At the same time you need to realise that most people who play seriously and do the 'zones' evils dream of, are actually more experienced evil players than the people claiming to be 'the evils'. Let the division antics die. I for one am positive I have far more experience playing a purely evil character than most people on the mud, yet I am through and through a 'goodie' apparently because I don't quit my goodie characters? I'd be far more willing to lead evil groups regularly if each time I made one up the followers in it outside of my guild didn't spend half the time complaining about having humans or us 'pseudo-evils' in the group and focused on playing the game. Evil characters are more powerful than good characters.

The game needs a bigger Pbase, not goodies switching to evils, it is ever growing in zones and shrinking in people to fill them.
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Postby Hsoj » Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:18 pm

Sarell wrote:At the same time you need to realise that most people who play seriously and do the 'zones' evils dream of, are actually more experienced evil players than the people claiming to be 'the evils'.


what kind of doubletalk trash is that?!

I rolled an evil after a week cause goodies sucked. I heart my troll but if it weren't for my ability to solo exp I'd be nowhere. Evil pbase stinks (at times) and I can't group w/ the stupid humans most of the time because they're grouped w/ goodies.

and to fix the who evil problem
Who Sort Evil Neutral

Oh and btw, if you don't have an evil, don't talk, just read and keep your know-nothing mouth shut, i implore you.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:20 pm

Assuming the comment about not commenting unless you have an evil was to Sarell.

He has a 50th level evil race Rogue.

I'd implore you to do a little research.
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Postby Hsoj » Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:29 pm

must not flame.. must not flame.. must not flame...

arilin, you're wrong, wasn't commenting to sarell, was a blanket statement.

and so..

who's your evil?


Edited cause i'm at work....
where the hell am i supposed to do "research?"
You research exhaustively and conclude there is nothing to be found!
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:56 pm

Well, that's why I started it off with the assumption, and yes. We all know what happens when you assume. And my evil? Rurga or Rugra, one of those I can neer remember my trolls name. 48th level warrior i zoned with evils as for awhile a year or two back.

I simply got bored with the whole matter, all the evils I liked to zone with left so there wasn't much of a point.
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Postby daggaz » Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:35 pm

Hmm not sure i quite agree with ya sarell...content or the presentation.

Wrong for sure on two points tho.

1. Zero evils on before. Whatever. We used to be many many evils, got to be less and less for various reasons, now we are very few. But I know there are players out there. They log from time to time and usually say hi to me. The socalled 'real evils', you speak of Sarell, had a lot more respect for other players than you apparently have.

2.EVils dont do anything these days.-

Erm.... I lead zones almost every single day. Have been doing it for weeks. I lead anything and everything I can with what I have to work with. Its not much, but I rarely spank, people have fun, there is a minimum of problems or fighting, and usually people get to win a bid. I was asking for help, trying to let people know how it is going, hoping maybe, maybe, something good would come of it.

As it is... I wasnt trying to drive a wedge between goodies and evils, and ill thank you for not telling people thats what my meaning was. Just noticing that of all the people who still mud, anybody who used to evil is now playing goody. was hoping we might be able to get a few people back and balance things out again.

Anyhow, I wont apologize for trying, or for not leading the fantastic zones you want to play. If you want better zones as an evil, log on and watch what some of your friends do when the ysee you. You might be surprised.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:56 pm

A pwipe would increase the evil population. Seriously, think about it. People don't want to level another character because it's a waste of time. Equipment can be transferred from one character to the next, thus making any character you want just as powerful as the next.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Hsoj » Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:02 pm

I thought Toril didn't pwipe

Hsoj + pwipe >> crack addict + lbs of crack

it's just not a pretty picture...
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Postby Ambar » Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:23 pm

It's long been promised that there'd be no pwipe. Many want one, more don't. We'd lose so many older players that dont have the time nor enery, let alone desire to level up and rebuild eq sets again. I doubt I'd be back in force if there was a wipe, which to most would be no great loss, but I'm sure the sentiment is shared among several older mudders (not all, some are die hard mudders)

As far as neutrals .. I rolled my bard to be neutral human, evil aligned, she is my only purposely neutral unless you count the necro and a-p which have only human choices. I rolled her cause she could group with either side and could wear my evil aligned only eq. Very seldom do you get tells from people who check out the neutral list for groups. Maybe evils just dont utilize bards the way goodies do? I don't think humans grouping hurt the mud, nor did it hurt the evil side.

I can play either goodie or evil easily, with only a minor eq swap to deal with. I DO play both, I have evil cleric as well as good, evil enchanter as well as good, and have a multitude of both evil and goodie alts.

Why do I chose to play good more? Cause my guildmates in CC left, OD's older players left, the creme of evil society stopped playing, save a few who still play. For the most part if I zone, I prefer to play with people i KNOW will do their job, rag tag zone groups are fun in smaller doses, smaller zones, but for the big stuff you need seasoned players which the evils just dont have great numbers of anymore. Most of the older evils who still play, play goodies.

Most of the oldschool evils who have goodies make it clear that they WILL play their evil if it is needed. I dont think that if the few old evils played consistently it would boost the evils back to where we were. If you remember, we were always smaller, always more closely knit. We lost that with our evil leaders. Evil groups dont have the cohesion we used to, when all the *asshols* left, so did the evil spirit.

Insulting well known players doesnt get you newer evils, either. If he had any thought to tryignm to convince his buddies to try evil for a bit, I'm sure all that was dashed with scathing insults. Whats the old saying, you draw more flies with honesy than vinegar.

Dagz, do you know who Sarell's evil rogue is?

Anyway, thats just my two coppers, not worth much of anything and weigh too much to carry.
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Postby daggaz » Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:31 pm

Oh heh and I dont know if it was a veiled reference to me, but everybody knows my dislike/hatred for humans is strictly RP. or they should realize it. After all, I *was* still in your group scaling in avernus so that human could get his ress quest finished. And my human friends know im a nice guy, too *wink*

-daggaz
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Postby daggaz » Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:34 pm

I didnt start out insulting anybody, and frankly was rather offended by sarells posts... maybe i shouldnt take it personally but I am just trying to help people out on this side and getting made fun of for what zones we lead, well...just sucks.

and yeah, i know who sarell is.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:49 pm

daggaz wrote:I didnt start out insulting anybody, and frankly was rather offended by sarells posts... maybe i shouldnt take it personally but I am just trying to help people out on this side and getting made fun of for what zones we lead, well...just sucks.

and yeah, i know who sarell is.


Why? What Sarell said is dead on.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby daggaz » Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:52 pm

I didnt start out insulting anybody, and frankly was rather offended by sarells posts... maybe i shouldnt take it personally but I am just trying to help people out on this side and getting made fun of for what zones we lead, well...just sucks.

and yeah, i know who sarell is.
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Postby daggaz » Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:57 pm

Dalar: No, its not DEAD on. It might be true about some people, but not all of us. And lets not anyone forget the first day we started mudding. Nobody gets to be l33t from day one. Flaming people who arent that hot yet is just rude. And saying we cant do squat outside of dk is just not true.

As it is, there is a group of people who are very skilled in their class who still roll as evils. There are more who are not so good , but most of them are trying hard and we are doing our best to teach em how to play better.

The whole point of it was, a lot of people say they want to play evil but there arent enough on, and my response to this was, well log your evil and the situation will change at least slightly for the better.

At this point, im sorry i brought the whole thing up. I was hoping to maybe get a few more people to play evil than the ones ive already talked to. As it is, it looks like ive just awakened something else that should have been left sleeping.
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Postby Jenera » Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:27 pm

I've always been a goodie. Been playing since almost since day one and I've always chosen the goodie side. Part of it is aesthetics I guess, imagining myself as a human or a moon elf is far easier for me than envisioning myself as a troll or a duergar. The few times I've decided to go to the evil side, I was snubbed and called an evil wannabe, to the point where I was tired of the abuse and went back to the goodie side. It seems things are different now. Alot of the legendary players have left to pursue different things. What with games like World of Warcraft and Guild Wars and Final Fantasy 11, the mud seems rather stuck in ancient times. But to players like me, it's the old memories of the fun we used to have that keep me going, the friends I have made. Mudders are no longer bits of text, as I have met quite a few of them via gatherings and such.

This shouldn't turn into the same old battle of good v. evil. I honestly believe that isn't Daggaz's intention. This isn't about him saying that other people don't understand where he is coming from and for a bunch of people to post that they have full-stacked evil characters and therefore think Daggaz doesn't know what he's talking about. It is hoping that if one person speaks up and wistfully hopes that his one voice would bring some of his friends back to bolster up the "side" that he loves. That mudding perhaps shouldn't be all about status and eq and reknown. The most fun I've ever had is doing crappy exp with a small bunch of close friends, or the time I rp'd with a bunch of trolls, duergar, and drow and talking myself out of getting killed *chuckle*

I guess I sympathize with Daggaz, because I remember, just like him, that there used to be more than politics and I'm better than you syndrome and climbing over others to be better.

I've spoken to quite a few evils who have come over to the goodie side. It seems the majority of their reasons is either 1) There is no one to play with on the evils side or 2) There is never enough people to zone or get help from. But if every evil who thought that, didn't think that, imagine what could be different.

I don't know if I have said anything that makes sense or whether people will get insulted and flame or even whether I have even supported Daggaz. More than likely I have just analyzed and judged Daggaz in a way he is not agreeable with. I guess it's just my opinion of why I believe there has been such a shift and had I been in Daggaz's shoes, what I would feel.
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Postby daggaz » Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:32 pm

Jenera: Thanks man, pretty much exactly what I meant by the whole thing, im glad you understand and I hope more people out there do too.

Oh hey! I REMEMBER YU! You were like the first one in the game to get
-100 ac, way back when split shield just came in. Heh omg that takes me back a while... (least im pretty sure that was you,... it was a ranger with a J name that sounded like Jenna, but it has been more than ten years... )

Anyhow, thanks again, see ya on the flip side! (floP)
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Postby Dalar » Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:54 pm

Really, what's the point of going evil when all the good players are good race and there's no new content? I'll tell you why not to level an evilrace:

There's no good exp zone that is close to evil zones.
Exp to 50 is a huge timesink. Why is this still so?
There is no evil pbase.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ragorn » Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:47 pm

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Dalar wrote:There's no good exp zone that is close to evil zones.
Exp to 50 is a huge timesink. Why is this still so?
There is no evil pbase.
- Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:48 pm

BTW, you deserved that :P
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Postby daggaz » Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:55 pm

Dalar. 'All the good players are goodrace'. Its not even worth a comment, so I just wont. Im sure theres a few players out there who might wanna have it up with you, tho.

No xp zone near dk. Heh, sorry mang, but DK itself is prolly one of the best xp zones in the game. And as a curious enchanter, Ive discovered more than a few good places in the Underdark to quickly level up on. You should get out and play more..

XP to 50 is a huge timesink. True! (wow, you got one! way to go, kid!) Equally as true for goodrace as for evilrace.

There is no evil pbase. Um... then who the hell have i been grouping with the last year or two? Damn... My point was we are low and if people care to help, they can log and see the difference it makes. But you either missed the point, or you just dont care...

And if you just dont care, and have nothing at all constructive to say, and are just gonna try and enflame people....well.... why waste your time on this thread in the first place? Don't you have more important things to do? It would seem that way...
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Postby Dalar » Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:02 pm

When was the last time evils did IC2/Izan's/SPOB/Seelie/BC on a regular basis and in good time?

I have 2 evils that are 46+ and I have 6 (lich/shaman/illusionist/bard/rogue/warrior) goodies 49+ and another 2 goodies (enchanter/elementalist) that are 42.
Please, educate me on how good evil exp.

Look at your posts. It's mostly whining about people playing their evilrace characters rather than offering ANY good reason to. If you think "so we can revive the evil playerbase" is a good reason, you're wrong. You have no plan. Want to be constructive? Give people a reason why they should play evil. Who's going to lead the evils? You? Turg and Folur were good leaders in that they took the time to lead. That's all. They relied heavily on people for tactics and what not. You are just whining and nobody will listen to you.

Also, I did give a constructive view. If you pwipe, people will choose one side because it's even. Right now, do I want to play goodies, who zone almost every night and have a ton of players, or do I want to waste 6+ days of playing time and log on every night and hope 14 other people log in.

Read Sarell's and Kiryan's posts. They're dead on.
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Postby Hsoj » Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:37 pm

Dalar would you take offense to people leavin' your precious side of choice? is that where this offense stems from?

FOR THE 982173495th TIME, it was a call to people to hop on their evils more, IT WAS NOT A CALL FOR YOU TO FLAME.

Obviously your opinion is known regarding what side you want to play. shut up about it alrdy.

wtg Ambar for being bi and playing both w/ both teams, btw
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Postby Latreg » Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:06 am

Dalar wrote:When was the last time evils did IC2/Izan's/SPOB/Seelie/BC on a regular basis and in good time?


(had to jump on this) although we don't do those zones on a regular basis we do the mid level zones which encourages the new midlevel players to play. Personally I stopped playing a goodie way back because all anyone ever wanted to do is those long high end zones. I don't believe this has changed since I get tells from human who want to exp etc. Now mind you I'm just going by the tells that I get and talking with people. Pwipe would be good, then maybe people would have to do all those zones that aren't bothered with anymore and get more people involved in the game. Back in the day it was a big deal to get to jot first after a boot/crash and do it. Now people look for invasion and rares because there is so much gear no one needs stuff from zones like that any more. Most of you are very selfish you won't bother with zones you don't need or want something from. Not all of you but maybe look at yourself and what have you done to improve the game lately? Have you lead jot or brass for newbie types? Daggaz has lead alot, even if they are only small zones or single mobs. We have done zones for people who really needed something from them and they where given the item. Daggaz has really done alot to increase the evil pbase as has others but he can't do it alone, I think all he is asking for is a little help.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:13 am

Sarell has a good point. There are plenty of "evils" online every day, however they are all playing their good race characters or making time investments in leveling additional good race characters.

Presuming evils is dead is rather bold... a more accurate statement might be that it is far "better" choice to play a goody than to play an evil....

The lack of long term committed leaders on the evil race side is a major factor. You level characters so you can zone, if theres no one to lead the zone it doesnt matter if theres enough people online to do a zone.

Why invest time in a evil race cleric if you're going to get less zone time than a poorly played halfling warrior?
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Postby Ruxur » Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:19 am

Ambar wrote:
Dagz, do you know who Sarell's evil rogue is?


Krenalazmagg
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Postby Ruxur » Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:30 am

Hsoj wrote:Dalar would you take offense to people leavin' your precious side of choice? is that where this offense stems from?

FOR THE 982173495th TIME, it was a call to people to hop on their evils more, IT WAS NOT A CALL FOR YOU TO FLAME.

Obviously your opinion is known regarding what side you want to play. shut up about it alrdy.

wtg Ambar for being bi and playing both w/ both teams, btw


Fatah, first off you have no clue about the evil races here, you werent here you dont know why there defunct. You wanna know why people dont log thier evils in more? Its because when you do, you have to teach people to do the simplest of tasks while they afk on you or ignore every word you say. Granted there are some good people left down there, i would guess that 50% of the current evil pbase is untrainable. Well im not gonna say untrainable, but close. Example, evils got a big shot in the arm when krolb came back and tried to revitalize them by leading some zones. Krolb has helped build evils up before mind you. How did that work out? Well krolb, a guy with a lot more patience than i have, quit, gave up, dosent log in, dosent play. His reasoning was that the people he was taking to zones refused to learn from thier mistakes, they refused to get ANY better. Whats more, you show a guy what hes doing wrong, and he takes it as in insult, saying i know how to play my class! Well if he did, then i wouldnt have to correct him at all now would I? Evils are dead until the people that used to rock them come back in full force.

Daggaz, we go back a little man, I am not trying to slam you here. In fact alot of my friends still play evil, Daggaz, Elet, Muxxissinix, and a ton of people i havent seen in forever, since i left OD.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:56 am

100% agree with Kiryan and Ruxur here .. I guess I was just a pansy in not saying exactly what I meant .. People arent who they used to be in that you used to learn by making the mistakes and gettin your ass handed to you. You didnt make the mistake twice. Did that make it harder? Sure it did but most of us loved that style of leadership. Hell evil pbase was BIG .. still lower that goodie side but VERY easily two zone groups big every time I logged on. Try to tell someone what to do these days and they ignore you or tell you to go to hell...

You have to trust both who you follow and who you let follow you. Mid level zones are good to learn on, but eventually you NEED to go to the higher end zones, if not for the eq, but for quest spells .. Ress anyone?? I promise you I wouldnt follow just anyone to Avernus, nor would any leader take untrusted MAIN characters to the zone (ie: an untried cleric warrior rogue or chanter).. To me its all about the RUSH you get testing your skills, trying new things, trying OLD zones with less and less people (rofl love ya ross:P)

Keep up the good work, Dagz .. keep doing what ya doing, you know I'm up for fun fun whenever I have the time ..

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Postby Ambar » Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:57 am

Ruxur wrote:
Ambar wrote:
Dagz, do you know who Sarell's evil rogue is?


Krenalazmagg


yeah I knew, was just makin sure he knew .. apparently he did
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Postby Sarell » Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:34 am

I'm sorry if I offended anyone in my post. I didn't intend to and I guess my ideas were communicated wrongly.

When I said Daggaz isn't right enough. I meant, he is absolutely right, what he is doing in the game and on the BBS is right. By 'isn't right enough' I meant that I agree with him so enthusiastically as to take it a step further. I believe his regular zoning needs to be pushed and advertised even more to revive some evil zoning and zoning experience.

What I don't like in this thread is all the people referring to the ambiguous 'they' 'us' 'we' 'evils' 'goods'. Ambar for instance to make my point, is one of the best evil players, and one of the best good players. She is straight out one of the best players. Same with Dalar, Kiryan, Ruxur, etc etc etc. If somebody plays 60 hours a week, and they are happy to play whatever character whenever for a different bit of flavour, then why go labling them a goodie convert or some other derogatory term. It is especially insulting and a turn off from groups when people start saying from the outset that you are not a part of the 'real group'.

Someone took offense I guess to when I said 'they arn't always of the best calibre'. I stick to that statement 100%. What I meant is no evil group is as good at straight up smiting as a group of 15 Scions of Netheril who I regularly zone with, these people are dead set mud addicts and have mostly been playing for 10 years and work as a cohesive force! An evil group might be as powerful one day, I hope so and I hope to lead it or at least take part!

I'm just a player, Krenalazmagg was one of my first characters, was a level 50 thief, has survived many wipes, and is my only character I deck out for pure power over nice colours. I have taken him to every zone on the mud and led most of them aswell as him, he is one of the most experienced evil characters there is. To be told I'm not evil enough for evil groups or that I have to only play my evils makes me want to stick with my guilded friends, who happen to be elves humans and gnomes and stuff and can't group with people who have trolls and squids n things. The first day I bought Krenalazmagg out of anon on S3, a level 50 of repute looked at me, saw I was totally decked with items only a handful of players in DSR had at the time and told me straight up to 'choose sides or F off'. So I ignored them obviously, formed a group and smote! I'm here to play the mud, promote all kinds of players of the mud, and have a good time. Racewars are silly, I disagree with only making good characters or evil characters in that I think it is very worthwhile to level up a good and evil character so you can have parts of all the pie! People are right that the pie is much bigger on the good side currently. But evil pie is still delicious.

PS: Neutral human druids should make evilberries.... darkberries? oh plz
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Postby Ambar » Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:36 am

rofl rofl I saw Krenny for the first time and thought how pretty he was :P I wanted those earrings bad :P

Yeah it used to piss me off when people made snide comments about someone we knew was prime goodie .. I used to peep at people to see if I could guess, but that was just me being me .. same as I try to make a silly word with everyones name .. just a goofball I guess!


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Postby Lahgen » Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:54 am

The way I see it...

If a bigger, dedicated evil pbase can be brought into being, then there is a greater chance that competition can be fostered between the two sides. For those who bemoan the lack of competition on this mud, perhaps this would be a way of helping towards that end. We'll also need the help of the imms too, possibly.
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Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Sarell » Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:32 am

One thing that scares me a tad is that if evilrace do get a leg up in terms of number of players they are going to be by far the more powerful groups with all the bones tossed their way. Tho they don't have rangers so prolly will fall behind there!

*skip*
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Postby Yarash » Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:32 pm

Well I think it's a good idea to try to get more evils playing. It's been brutal trying to get in groups with my small evil, even in scardale. Out of scardale is even harder. Dk looks deserted.

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Postby Kegor » Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:38 pm

I would like to point out for all of you that lack of good leaders for evils is not the problem here. It is lack of players in general. A numerous variant amount of players that have been to the zone you are leading at least 5x and know exactly what they are doing. Evils do not have this, and probably never will.

Oldschool evils of the past have usually ended up quitting during slow times. Some of them return and take a look at the who list once and say 'fuck it' and roll a goodie. Cuz thats where the zoning is. That small quantity is replaced with newer players who will never get the zoning frequency of top end zones they need to be considered, in my book, 'an A+ player'.

It's a vicious cycle that goes nowhere. I have seen people pointing at humans this and that for switching from thier evils. That really isn't the problem. The problem is simply just the way it is right now. Way more goodies than evils. How hard is that choice to someone who likes to get groups easier on a group based mud. That would be a good 95% of the mud.

Anyhow, after watching this go on for years and years and more recently worse years... the only solution that I could possibly suggest to fix the balance of evils to goodies is letting all races group together for an undetermined amount of time. If that is too radical a solution to the problem for certain people (which include a couple evil guildies of mine) and a handfull of goodies, then there is no solution. I would be fine with that too. I felt we lost the battle there despite a lot of peoples best efforts. I am rolling good race chars myself to continue to enjoy the game as members of my guild have already.

Well there's my book of a post to continue off of this big dramatic subject that I am surprised has attracted so much attention and inquiry for once.

Evils are only the best races in the game for zoning with, maybe they should be a minority and thus not allowed to zone seriously without miracle rare load who list that has little experience in top end zones. I dunno.

* Zoom
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Postby Shaiith » Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:04 pm

Sarell wrote:One thing that scares me a tad is that if evilrace do get a leg up in terms of number of players they are going to be by far the more powerful groups with all the bones tossed their way. Tho they don't have rangers so prolly will fall behind there!


elves > yuan-ti

uber mages > uber priests.

There are only at most 2 clerics in any given group, but often 6 or 7 mages.

Evil races also have psionicists, which makes for an interesting twist in the presence of high MR mobs, but it's still not enough to over come the elven edge.

Here's my comparison by class of which race is the "best". Sometimes I'll list multiple where style can be a choice (warrior, etc)

=========
Warrior: Elf, Barb (Dwarf close if !infra is too painful, troll fire + agi isn't worth it versus Barb, Troll is close, and wins hands down as an xp tank)
Ranger/Dire: Elf, howl is really nice, but it's not that great.
Anti/Pal: Human

Rogue: Elf, Duergar, efhr depending on style, Dwarf if you dislike ultra and want to be in the style of Duergar/Dwarf
Bard/Bat: Elf

Cle: Yuan
Dru: Elf
Sha: Barb (orc is close, but down 50 hp)

Enc: Elf
Illus: Gnome or Yuan depending on style
Inv: Elf
Nec: Yuan
Lich: Drow
Ele: Elf

Psi: Illithid
=========
Looking over this list I see the following classes where evil races outshine their good race counterparts.

Evil: Nec/Lic/Psi/Cle
Mixed: Rog/Ill/A-P/War
Good: Ran/Pal/Bar/Dru/Sha/Enc/Inv/Ele

A mixed race group might look something like this
3.War 2.Cle 1.Enc 1.Ill 1.Sha 1.Dru 1.Bar 1.Rog 1.Lic 2.Inv 1.Psi

Evil: 4 (2.Cle 1.Lic 1.Psi)
Mixed: 4 (2.War 1.Ill 1.Rog)
Good:7 (1.War (3 trolls is too much of a concentrated risk, at least one must be good race) Enc Sha Dru Bar 2.Inv)

The balance of power is with the good races by a score of 7-4 (Mixed swings either way). Over time people have realized this, and the given pbase ratio is due to this.

Making evils more powerful would solve nothing though. The issue is that in a two sided mud, one side or the other eventually becomes less worthwhile to make the time investment to roll/xp an alt. Once the scales are tipped the pbase will slide to the other side. Specific individuals can keep the less desireable side viable (group of friends, etc, MO does a great job at keeping any evils alive), but the general population of mudders will slide to where they see better opportunities.

The issues are that the mud is two sided and the overall pbase is at an all time low. Also, no reason other than competition in zoning skills was given to play both sides. (Racewars actually happening would have been a more powerful reason, but maybe not powerful enough).

This mud with it's two sides is much like cell phone networks. Eventually the bigger side buys out the smaller and merges the groups. Cross race grouping in it's full glory has yet to happen, but you can perform the merge for yourself by leveling a good race alt. Sure it hurts. I miss Sservis (but not Hsievssruk, Shaiith has better stats and a better race), but I don't miss the lack of top end zoning.

Maybe someday the grouping will merge (see end for tangent thought), but until then even if evil races are upgraded to be super uber (removing ultra would be sorta like this, then maybe we'd all play evil race and the good race alts would be out in the cold, not "better" overall just a different side) the best it will do is cause a revitalization of evils at the expense of the good races, and this is not really what we as players want to happen to the mud as a whole.

tangent

What if grouping worked as follows (only changes from current grouping are listed, from least to most controversial)

1)
neutral align good races could group with good align evil races
evil align good races could group with good/neutral align evil races

good align evil races could group with neutral/evil align good races
neutral align evil races could group with evil align good races

2)
good align humans could group with good/neutral align evil races

3)
neutral align could group with neutral align regardless of race

underlying logic:

1)
if the evil race alt is at least an align category more "good" than the good race alt, let them group.

2)
Since neutral align humans can group with evil align evil races, moving the humans up one category to good align moves the restriction up one category to require at least neutral align of the evil race player.

3)
The above two requirements would encourage each and every evil race alt to be good align and each and every good race alt to be evil align to maximize grouping opportunities. Since this isn't really the best incentive in the interests of preserving story, allow neutral aligns of all races to group. This would reduce the incentive to only "be neutral to maximize grouping opportunities". It probably would make sense to somehow increase costs on going neutral (or everyone will be doing it and no one will be a good align good race or evil align evil race, bad for story since there is good and evil in this mud)

downsides:
Nonhuman Rangers would be left out in the cold, since they must be good align. I've often wondered why rangers are forced to be good align if they are druidic partial casters.

Druids are required to be neutral or lose their spells. How do rangers get the same spells at good align but druids don't? What god grants spells to rangers of one alignment but not a second and to druids of the second alignment but not the first? Maybe rangers since they get only partial spells should be allowed to be good and neutral, and druids that go good only get a partial spell set?

Also Paladins would be able to group with neutral or good align evil races. I consider this to be ok, but it's borderline. Story reasons might dictate that paladins (or even any good align humans) cannot group with evil races.

/tangent

tangent2

I ramble on too much

/tangent2
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Postby daggaz » Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:12 pm

I think most of you understand my point now and I am really happy to see all the responses, I especially appreciate how this thread quickly came off the typical 'lets flame eachother BS' and is reaching a serious consesus, even if the actual solution may be out of our reach.

Would like to say thank you to Ambar, Sarell (kren), Jenera, Latreg, Ruxur, Kiryan, Lahgen, Yaresh and Jaznolg for your thoughtful input on this one, as well as the rest of you...

Hopefully we can get a little something going...even a few more players would be decent... I can lead !spank ET with only 9 players (if its not too many huges loaded) but it sure would help with just 2 or 3 more occasionally. I lead brass, gith, lava demon, various mobs in UD, tower demons almost every day (or boot), as well as labby, FP and astral, ET, and other zones occasionally. We need a few more players tho, leaders or followers, and it will be a lot more fun for us evils. If you wanna come and play with us (does your alt need wings?) stop in ANY time and joing the fun, you are more than welcome, the more the merrier.

And hopefully, just maybe, we can start rolling some of the bigger zones...I know my guildies are thirsting for it. Anyhow, take good care, see ya on the flip side, -Daggaz

PS. Im leading an RP assault on the DK vault (yeah there will be bidding) some time next week or so, any and ALL help would be appreciated, as he is a greater named wyrm and not wussified like in the old days.
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Postby Kegor » Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:13 pm

Most of that last post is a bit much. Too many wierd grouping conditions and too complicated for the most simple and important thing in the game.. grouping. All or nothing. Gotta open all racial grouping if you want to give evils a little influx in pbase without pwiping the mud. It really is the only way. It will take me a few years to get as many goodie 50 alts as I have evil, but I would probably end up doing it to continue to enjoy this game. Just seems quite a waste of programing and areas work to neglect 50% of the game to the point of nonuse.

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Postby Jenera » Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:51 pm

I agree with Sarell in his last post. I remember one instance when, I forget who, an evil asked me for help in doing a zone or a spellquest. Actually, I think it may have been when Ambar was finishing fire embody for her goody but it was a group of evils and she was on as her cleric. I remember dying, as with several others and I had no spare pff gear so I specifically asked whoever was leading in tells and in gsay to please cast pff on me or at least heal me after being told to relocate back in. I was ignored and I died again. AFterwards, people in the group commented about how I was a goodie anyway so it didn't matter. Granted it may have been joking around, but it still hit a nerve. Apparently I was needed in said group, otherwise I would not have been asked to help. It's experiences like that that certainly don't want me to roll up an evil or even assist evils who need another invoker in the long run. In my nearly 10 years of mudding, that has never happened in a goodie zone/spellquest group. I honestly believe for the evils to bounce back from their stalemate, certain attitudes need to change, though it really isn't my place to say. It kind of reminds me of a historical novel I read recently where a group of people were so bent on harnessing the best qualities in people and thought they were the chosen of their god, they got so tunnel-visioned in their beliefs that they died off. Enough with the evils v. goodies. Enough with which side is better. That's what's causing it. We're all players, most of us have spent a better part of our lives on this game and for a reason. Enough with this goodie race is better than this evil race and vice versa.
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:05 pm

OMG, Jenera is dangerously close to invoking Godwin's Law on this thread, finish up while you still can!
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Postby Dalar » Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:24 pm

Hsoj wrote:Dalar would you take offense to people leavin' your precious side of choice? is that where this offense stems from?

FOR THE 982173495th TIME, it was a call to people to hop on their evils more, IT WAS NOT A CALL FOR YOU TO FLAME.

Obviously your opinion is known regarding what side you want to play. shut up about it alrdy.

wtg Ambar for being bi and playing both w/ both teams, btw


Uh where have I flamed in this post? Telling me to shut up is more of a flame than anything I've said in the past. If I actually wanted to play here after a pwipe, I would choose evil because they are superior in zoning. Obviously, you have no fucking clue about what you're talking about. <-- this is a flame
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Postby Dalar » Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:42 pm

Shaiith wrote:
=========
Warrior: Elf, Barb (Dwarf close if !infra is too painful, troll fire + agi isn't worth it versus Barb, Troll is close, and wins hands down as an xp tank)

Rogue: Elf, Duergar, efhr depending on style, Dwarf if you dislike ultra and want to be in the style of Duergar/Dwarf

Efhrs are by far the best rogues due to khanjaris proccing.
If I had to choose a warrior, I'd pick a yuan-ti. They agi almost as good as elves and much better con.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Hsoj
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Location: Not close enough to stalk... Latitude 45°30'30" Longitude -121°50'30"
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Postby Hsoj » Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:42 pm

Ruxur wrote:Fatah, first off you have no clue about the evil races here, you werent here you dont know why there defunct.


I wasn't here when? and why are they defunct?

dalar wrote:Obviously, you have no fucking clue about what you're talking about. <-- this is a flame



about what about don't I know? about, about some more...

dalar wrote:Look at your posts. It's mostly whining about people playing their evilrace characters rather than offering ANY good reason to. If you think "so we can revive the evil playerbase" is a good reason, you're wrong. You have no plan. Want to be constructive? Give people a reason why they should play evil. Who's going to lead the evils? You? Turg and Folur were good leaders in that they took the time to lead. That's all. They relied heavily on people for tactics and what not. You are just whining and nobody will listen to you.


hrm, that seems flamelike to me, but hey i don't have a fucking clue, remember?
-==~ Tafah Auvry'ar'lyl | Fatah Fire Bath ~==-
Dalar
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Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:07 pm

Uh, look at his original post. It's just a bunch of whining.

If I were Daggaz and wanted to rally up the troops, I would have a better plan then telling everyone to log on their evils just to beef up the wholist. Things like scheduled zone nights, showing how evilraces are stronger in zones etc. are all different things he could have done. Also, describing how, with those 10 people he can muster up, do no spank vault/brass/whatever, he could at least show people there are capable people on the evil side now. If you haven't played a goodie in a while, then you probably haven't heard that the rumors about the evil pbase is that they aren't skilled, don't listen, and don't want to learn.

At this point in the thread, Daggaz's last post actually had merit rather than his first one. If he hadn't posted anything after the original post, I would bet nobody would care. His last post shows he's trying and is calm, rather than being whiny and irrational. Another idea would be to allow humans in your groups, but give evilraces a priority at all times at any point in the zone.

Also, to all you people saying "omg I had a bad experience with evils and I never will again", that was probably Cherzra and Jaznolg. I took the time to go evil for a few months and I had some opposition from the beginning, but I told them to fuck off and played with the cool people like Zoldren. When you actually level up and are at zoning level they will care less.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Arilin Nydelahar
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:13 pm

Dalar wrote:Uh, look at his original post. It's just a bunch of whining.

If I were Daggaz and wanted to rally up the troops, I would have a better plan then telling everyone to log on their evils just to beef up the wholist. Things like scheduled zone nights, showing how evilraces are stronger in zones etc. are all different things he could have done. Also, describing how, with those 10 people he can muster up, do no spank vault/brass/whatever, he could at least show people there are capable people on the evil side now. If you haven't played a goodie in a while, then you probably haven't heard that the rumors about the evil pbase is that they aren't skilled, don't listen, and don't want to learn.

At this point in the thread, Daggaz's last post actually had merit rather than his first one. If he hadn't posted anything after the original post, I would bet nobody would care. His last post shows he's trying and is calm, rather than being whiny and irrational. Another idea would be to allow humans in your groups, but give evilraces a priority at all times at any point in the zone.

Also, to all you people saying "omg I had a bad experience with evils and I never will again", that was probably Cherzra and Jaznolg. I took the time to go evil for a few months and I had some opposition from the beginning, but I told them to fuck off and played with the cool people like Zoldren. When you actually level up and are at zoning level they will care less.



Where in the hell did the old Brian go? Emarin using your login or something now?
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Dalar
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Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:16 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:
Dalar wrote:Uh, look at his original post. It's just a bunch of whining.

If I were Daggaz and wanted to rally up the troops, I would have a better plan then telling everyone to log on their evils just to beef up the wholist. Things like scheduled zone nights, showing how evilraces are stronger in zones etc. are all different things he could have done. Also, describing how, with those 10 people he can muster up, do no spank vault/brass/whatever, he could at least show people there are capable people on the evil side now. If you haven't played a goodie in a while, then you probably haven't heard that the rumors about the evil pbase is that they aren't skilled, don't listen, and don't want to learn.

At this point in the thread, Daggaz's last post actually had merit rather than his first one. If he hadn't posted anything after the original post, I would bet nobody would care. His last post shows he's trying and is calm, rather than being whiny and irrational. Another idea would be to allow humans in your groups, but give evilraces a priority at all times at any point in the zone.

Also, to all you people saying "omg I had a bad experience with evils and I never will again", that was probably Cherzra and Jaznolg. I took the time to go evil for a few months and I had some opposition from the beginning, but I told them to fuck off and played with the cool people like Zoldren. When you actually level up and are at zoning level they will care less.



Where in the hell did the old Brian go? Emarin using your login or something now?


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It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Botef
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Postby Botef » Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:19 pm

Dalar wrote:Uh, look at his original post. It's just a bunch of whining.

If I were Daggaz and wanted to rally up the troops, I would have a better plan then telling everyone to log on their evils just to beef up the wholist. Things like scheduled zone nights, showing how evilraces are stronger in zones etc. are all different things he could have done. Also, describing how, with those 10 people he can muster up, do no spank vault/brass/whatever, he could at least show people there are capable people on the evil side now. If you haven't played a goodie in a while, then you probably haven't heard that the rumors about the evil pbase is that they aren't skilled, don't listen, and don't want to learn.

At this point in the thread, Daggaz's last post actually had merit rather than his first one. If he hadn't posted anything after the original post, I would bet nobody would care. His last post shows he's trying and is calm, rather than being whiny and irrational. Another idea would be to allow humans in your groups, but give evilraces a priority at all times at any point in the zone.

Also, to all you people saying "omg I had a bad experience with evils and I never will again", that was probably Cherzra and Jaznolg. I took the time to go evil for a few months and I had some opposition from the beginning, but I told them to fuck off and played with the cool people like Zoldren. When you actually level up and are at zoning level they will care less.


Well we've actully tried the 'planning' for zones idea quite a bit...it is funny how many of those times we posted a public thread on our BBS about our plans, goodraces did the zone we had planned to do several hours before us...To say the least, a lot of us don't post those plans publically anymore. I'm not suggesting there is a consipiracy or anything mind you...But those occurences definatly disenchanted a lot of our public attempts at rallying the troops. I do know a lot of you check our BBS frequently :P, no idea why though, nothing worthwhile in the public discussion.
Last edited by Botef on Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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