How to bring back players - Step 1 - Making people not AFK

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Dalar
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How to bring back players - Step 1 - Making people not AFK

Postby Dalar » Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:13 am

The main reason why people AFK is because the boring aspects of gameplay rather than zone designs. These suggestions are aimed mainly at keeping the game more active rather than waiting

1. Get rid of resurrection effects. Why? Because they stall the game and make it boring. It punishs players in a bad way. Forcing people to wait 5-15 minutes per person makes everyone go AFK and can lead to a prolonged zone recovery.

Proposed Solution:
Make resurrection only give back 66% experience of what was lost. This roughly equates to 6% (about 20 minutes of someone's time doing exp) roughly lost. This forces a punishment onto players AFTER the zone and on their own expense rather than at 14 other peoples' expense.

2. Reduce times in between fights. Why? Because there's way too much downtime between fights, which furthur delay zones.

Proposed Solution:
a)Make maxint/maxwis mean something. Code it so maxwis/maxint reduces 0.5 seconds per notch and make the notches 5 points apart. Cap the lowest time to be 4 seconds per spell below 6th circle, 6 seconds per spell 6th circle and above. This can defintely speed up zones. If you're wondering how balanced this is for certain races, grey elves will need less maxint because of racial so they can go more hp. Humans will need more maxint but have more hp so they go less hp more maxint. This idea needs tweaking.
b) Make some enchantments (vit/stone/dragonscale/globe) last longer and renew in duration after it is casted on you again. Alot of downtime occurs when people wait for these spells to fall so they can renew them. I don't why people should have to wait for these spells to "fall" when they could be "refreshed". This is very possible to code since it's already in Duris, WoW, and a ton of other MUDs that are on different bases.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Re: How to bring back players - Step 1 - Making people not A

Postby Thilindel » Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:47 am

I was gonna try itemize that but *applaud* I like every damned bit of those suggestions! *hero*

And about the elf vs. human issue on hps, who cares, elves are the supreme race! *noog* Lahgen
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Postby Sarell » Sat Nov 19, 2005 8:22 am

I don't think punishing people for zoning adn dying in zone, by making them lose lots of exp and then sit in DS would help. I am totally sick of exp in DS as it is, on very old characters, I for one would quit if my char lost 50 until the exp situation was fixed.

I do wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of stopping afkness. Make zones where it matters if you afk, balanced fights throughout, thing that people have to be alert for rather than anyone can lead and follow through the zone by numbers.

I think some people will just afk without telling you, or after telling you they won't, no matter what however unfortunately. More players = more to choose from that don't.
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Postby Gormal » Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:40 pm

I blame zmud for people being afk. Seriously.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:17 pm

I dunno, I can make triggers like the rest of them. I've been playing Duris lately and I find that I can't afk for even 10 seconds without my leader telling me to wake up.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Gormal » Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:02 am

You tell Enchanter 'hey stop AFKing or you're getting ungrouped.'
An Enchanter has left the group.
You group-say 'well we can't do the zone now due to dwindling pbase, well us home'
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Postby Marrus » Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:41 am

Wow, that's just pathetic.
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:02 am

Having played Duris for a couple years, it doesn't end up being much different there on the PvE side. The easier exp doesn't keep people interested... it trivializes the leveling process until people -expect- to be level 50+ and anything lower is just a nuisance. I had just as many stonebots and assist triggers on Duris as I ever did on Toril.

And doing planar zones, where you have to lure 239485258883 mobs to the portal room before doing one hard boss fight... that wasn't any more interactive than dockie exp. Nuke nuke nuke, rest mem med.

However, the danger of PvP kept people interested and alert, in areas where PvP applied. Doing Eth at 4 in the morning was on autopilot, but when you got the tell that your sitter scanned a Drow or a Lich... that's when the blood got pumping. Nothing I've ever done on a MUD matches the excitement I feel during the first two seconds of bash lag immediately after two 10-man groups crash into each other.

If Duris had more of that, and less politics and asshole guild leaders and same-side pkilling, I might have stayed. But in the end, Duris politics put Toril to shame. You have to seriously fuck up to get ostracized from the entire goodie side on Toril. On Duris, it's as easy as not healing Tolm fast enough during a raid. When Tolm loses Avernus, someone deletes and rerolls with a different name.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:06 am

Still, without PvPing, the fights on duris require you to actually pay attention just because mobs can wipe you faster than they can on toril. Toril just has too many I win buttons like blur, dragonscales, lightning ball/inferno/swarm/rot blah blah blah
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
teflor the ranger
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Re: How to bring back players - Step 1 - Making people not A

Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:24 pm

Dalar wrote:The main reason why people AFK is because the boring aspects of gameplay rather than zone designs. These suggestions are aimed mainly at keeping the game more active rather than waiting

1. Get rid of resurrection effects. Why? Because they stall the game and make it boring. It punishs players in a bad way. Forcing people to wait 5-15 minutes per person makes everyone go AFK and can lead to a prolonged zone recovery.

Proposed Solution:
Make resurrection only give back 66% experience of what was lost. This roughly equates to 6% (about 20 minutes of someone's time doing exp) roughly lost. This forces a punishment onto players AFTER the zone and on their own expense rather than at 14 other peoples' expense.


It's my opinion that this is a solid suggestion. I'd suggest that there be a lesser time penalty and a greater XP loss for the following reasons.

Resurrection effects are unnecessarily long. Abuse could be avoided with merely 5 minutes of resfx.

Only restoring 50% of experience or even less would indeed force more players out into the field to xp after zone - with more players doing xp, this will provide more xp opportunity to other players as well.
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Re: How to bring back players - Step 1 - Making people not A

Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:29 pm

Dalar wrote:b) Make some enchantments (vit/stone/dragonscale/globe) last longer and renew in duration after it is casted on you again. Alot of downtime occurs when people wait for these spells to fall so they can renew them. I don't why people should have to wait for these spells to "fall" when they could be "refreshed". This is very possible to code since it's already in Duris, WoW, and a ton of other MUDs that are on different bases.


It's my opinion that this is a piss poor suggestion for the following reasons:

Dumbs down the game. Way down.

c 'dragonscales' tank
c 'dragonscales' tank
tank group-says 'scales fading'
c 'dragonscales' tank

so do we have to actually try anymore or what
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Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:22 pm

Dalar wrote:Still, without PvPing, the fights on duris require you to actually pay attention just because mobs can wipe you faster than they can on toril. Toril just has too many I win buttons like blur, dragonscales, lightning ball/inferno/swarm/rot blah blah blah


On the other hand, you have group Haste, Stone, and Globe, group Vit/Bless at 56, stronger necro pets, and tanks with either damage reduction (Paladins) or insane vamp (Anti-Paladins). And artifacts :)

Duris is a great game, and there are reasons (faster exp, greater player power) why I prefer it to Toril. But Duris hasn't managed to completely eradicate the tedium and humdrum zoning you find on both MUDs. They've made some aspects harder, and others much much easier.
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:55 am

So the Necro CR spell doesn't work in !tel zones?
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Postby Eilistraee » Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:48 pm

The only restrictions upon Soul Walk is consent, lack of preservation/spirit walking and a connected player.

No teleport has no bearing upon the success or failure of the spell.
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Postby Yarash » Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:21 pm

Dalar wrote:Still, without PvPing, the fights on duris require you to actually pay attention just because mobs can wipe you faster than they can on toril.


He makes a good point. One of the things I have noticed while playing here is that the mobs are significantly wimpier than on the previous game I played. Over there, a high end fight would be over in under a minute (within 4-6 rounds). You could die very quickly, but the mobs died fast too. It made the gameplay very exciting. For a lot of the mobs here though, it's like trying to stab a whale to death with a switchblade. So some areas with high damage, low hp might be kinda cool.

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Postby Sarell » Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:53 am

Haha Yarash, your whale analogy rocks. I have always pictured warriors on sojourn as running around, completely over equipped, I mean everyone wears eyepatches and stuff, and then holding these tiny little pin sized swords! :) I like the combat system however as it takes a bit more skill than the lucky hit which would be more 'realistic'. There is of course still some room for lucky hits with crits.
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Re: How to bring back players - Step 1 - Making people not A

Postby Dalar » Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:12 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Dalar wrote:b) Make some enchantments (vit/stone/dragonscale/globe) last longer and renew in duration after it is casted on you again. Alot of downtime occurs when people wait for these spells to fall so they can renew them. I don't why people should have to wait for these spells to "fall" when they could be "refreshed". This is very possible to code since it's already in Duris, WoW, and a ton of other MUDs that are on different bases.


It's my opinion that this is a piss poor suggestion for the following reasons:

Dumbs down the game. Way down.

c 'dragonscales' tank
c 'dragonscales' tank
tank group-says 'scales fading'
c 'dragonscales' tank

so do we have to actually try anymore or what


Duration as in time, not spamming dragonscales on a tank in combat.

Also Ragorn, i believe you don't play either MUD. If you can honestly tell me group vit/haste isn't cool for this MUD and will benefit it by getting rid of boring/lengthy spellups, then I'd be shocked. Also, yes I know bards have group haste but bards are a waste of space on this MUD anyways and need a revamp.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Sarell » Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:28 am

Group haste would be cool because you would have to choose when to use it or note. !ward + shields + !vokers/lich = !group haste. Would make vokers think more about popping that shield to help out the chanter aswell maybe.

Refreshing would be very very nice. Waiting for globes to drop is a tad ridiculous when your chanters is sitting there ready to go. It would make timestop far greater aswell. having to dispel a fly spell and cast a new one is a tad annoying.
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Postby Ionari » Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:05 am

Ragorn wrote:Nothing I've ever done on a MUD matches the excitement I feel during the first two seconds of bash lag immediately after two 10-man groups crash into each other.


Amen!

The only other thrilling experience I can think of is skydiving.
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Postby dem » Thu Nov 24, 2005 7:52 am

Zoning on duris may seem harder and more exciting to you guys that hasn't played it for a looong time like I have. Duris zoning requires no thinking at all since the only tactic you need is the "throw everything you got" at mob "abcd" and you will win. I have done every zone on that mud and there's not 1 fight that requires a bash assign.... I look at the logs here and I dream back a couple of years on duris and see what they lost. If they would have stuck to the theme that toril has stuck with there would be no arguments. Duris would have wiped every other mud back to the stone age. Unfortunately Duris is just a shadow of it's old glory...

I think that Toril could win something by speeding up some of the aspects tho. But removing unique code like ress-effects, eating, drinking etc just ruins the game in the end.....
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Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:25 am

Duris has some good things, and it has some bad things. It definitely has some pve balance issues that can only be addressed by the fact that you can be PK'd at any time and lose all your gear day to day. Toril has issues that are borne from a founding principle to choose "balanced" over "fun".

I have done a hundred or so zones on duris and have done thousands of zones on toril. You spank quite a bit more often on duris and on toril you get bored out of your mind making sure you don't spank. Even though you are constantly "luring" mobs on duris, the action is faster paced than toril zoning. I can't say one is more "fun" than the other, especially over the long term, although if I had to choose between spending lots of time preparing to not spank vs "F$@# It Charge", I'd rather FIC, CR, FIC again. Really, who enjoys waiting for vits to drop in Spob? Who enjoys sending the tank w on old scales and spanking because of it? Who enjoys waiting for the leader to drag corpses out of zone / ressing dead so that if it crashes they won't be stuck?

The PvP aspect of duris means that any excursion could become something else entirely and be completely different than your last trip to the same zone.

One of the most interesting game play elements of duris, is that you really can not be afk.... One of the biggest zoning complaints on toril is the afk zoner... Toril is very afk friendly, as a cleric in quite a few zones, i find that im halfway through a zone before i cast my first full heal. On duris, a single high level caster can wipe your group if nukers arent on target and if the cleric isn't healing fast. A walkin caster will virtually guarantee a few people die and increase the odds of wiping > 30%. Its hard to be afk when you contribute directly to the win/lose of every fight.

I pretty much agree with dartan.
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Re: How to bring back players - Step 1 - Making people not A

Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:52 am

Dalar wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Dalar wrote:b) Make some enchantments (vit/stone/dragonscale/globe) last longer and renew in duration after it is casted on you again. Alot of downtime occurs when people wait for these spells to fall so they can renew them. I don't why people should have to wait for these spells to "fall" when they could be "refreshed". This is very possible to code since it's already in Duris, WoW, and a ton of other MUDs that are on different bases.


It's my opinion that this is a piss poor suggestion for the following reasons:

Dumbs down the game. Way down.

c 'dragonscales' tank
c 'dragonscales' tank
tank group-says 'scales fading'
c 'dragonscales' tank

so do we have to actually try anymore or what


Duration as in time, not spamming dragonscales on a tank in combat.

Also Ragorn, i believe you don't play either MUD. If you can honestly tell me group vit/haste isn't cool for this MUD and will benefit it by getting rid of boring/lengthy spellups, then I'd be shocked. Also, yes I know bards have group haste but bards are a waste of space on this MUD anyways and need a revamp.


"renew in duration after it is casted on you again"

Yes, that would have you practically spamming dscales on a main tank.

It's not really a great suggestion.
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Postby Ifin » Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:19 pm

Hey, maybe chanters (or illus, they need to cast more stuff) should have a new spell that dispels only protective magics, like target/group dispel buffs. This would drop things like vit and globes. Those are the only spells that groups really wait for to fall anyways.

Blurs are on a 3-4 min tick and should be staggered anyways.

But I actually think staleness of scales and displaces add another dimsension to game play from a mage perspective. With it now you'd have to always think about upcoming fights and whether you want to set up for fresh spells or not. Fresh spells all the time are overpowered too.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:49 pm

Refresh spells only work on the (fading rapidly) message, you cannot stack them indefinitely

or hell what about that

dragonscales (fading rapidly)
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Postby kiryan » Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:28 pm

Why not just let people auto terminate any beneficial spell on them or let them do it when its "fading rapidly"

Need to refresh vits, drop your vit individually.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:16 pm

Because then people would complain it's just like WoW and EQ
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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