Why are People Gone?

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Urgus
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Why are People Gone?

Postby Urgus » Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:25 am

Not going to claim to know every exact thought that they thought of to decide to leave, but from observations:

I left for a dieing Exile because I had issues with other people (then onto HL)

but...

I came back every once an awhile, saw the pbase slowly fade away.

Saw it fade the most on my recent comeback, biggest thing that had changed? All the EQ had changed, all the hard work i had gone through was for nothing, least with pbase its a fresh start, killing the gear in the name of balance has gotta be worse then a pwipe (which sojourn promised not todo for some reason). Since then Toril2 has gone from 120 i saw steady for awhile, to 40 with homeland people...

Homelands was a steady 15-25, til they started balancing the classes...

Not an expert, but it seems people leave when you mess with their lives, so the question is, do you want a mud where everything is balanced enough that there is no way for someone to 'twink' something...with no pbase, or a mud with some holes and people in general having fun...

Flame Away, just my option, if i had one wish it would be to a way to keep people liking to mud in a world of growing interest in graphic games.
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:27 am

Imho, the biggest stick in the mud about Toril is the time it takes to xp. Graphic games are by far more rewarding. Life and computer speed keeps going faster, but xp'g here doesn't :P

The best thing about Toril is the new stuff put in, especially new zones.
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Postby Lathander » Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:55 am

Yea yea, damn anti paladin changes :)

Lath
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Postby Kallinar » Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:17 pm

There you have it. The pbase has shrunk due to the graphic mmorpg's. The graphic games offer faster ways to xp, chances to craft and participate in the economy by opening up shops and selling your wares, and some of them offer player spaces for personal use.

What keeps people paying the monthly fees to play these graphic games?

Well aside from the mind numbing graphical depictions of landscapes and mobiles, there is the greater sense of community because of the interaction needed to keep the economy going, the ability to do a lot of solo play if you want, and an ever present need for a group dynamic to complete the higher classed zones and quests.

Oh and we can't forget marketing. They spend a lot of those dollars you pay them to throw their product into the media on a mass scale. Most everyone that plays one online game or another tend to be consumers and consumers like glitz and pretty things to play with. Since the graphical massive games offer the glitz, have the media grasp, and still get your money, they will continue to squash the old school like this and keep it under its heel.

We can keep our fingers crossed that a large amount of graphical gamers will get tired of payijg to play their fantasy's but unless this games implements abilities to mine, craft, build, ect, player economy, or more ability to play solo and achieve a personal greatness without having to befriend people they don't want to, then things are going to pretty much stay on track as they are.

I am sure people will come back from time to time and see, overall, that things here are still playing along the same lines, they will end up looking for the next game to spend their money on to get the things they want out of a game.

To be honest, for 11 years i have loved this game and I have also always wanted the economy system put back in (I mean damn, the cart salesman in Waterdeep serves absolutely no purpose but he is still there) and I seriously would love to see my abilities to play solo be more fruitful since presently I have to balance my playing with my work due to the fact that work is the only place I get to play right now (not to mention that not many people ever wanted to group me anyhow. I had to start my own guild back in the day in order to get a group..and that was sad). I always play a warrior/hitter class. Solo is not a very doable thing for me and that is why i always tended to be stuck camping at the fountain as the Waterdeep Fountain Elite Guard.

/end 2 c
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Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:01 pm

every game loses people.

whatever specific features or decisiosn you want to call into question which have "caused" one person to quit here or there, the main reason the pbase has shrunk is our failure to attract and retain new people for whatever reason. I'm not seeing 10 people quit all at one time after a new change, I'm seeing a couple people quit every month over time.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:17 am

2 words:

Graphical Mudsex.

sigh... We miss you Dornax :p
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Postby Teklar » Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:06 am

Graphic games are by far more rewarding.


While this may hold true for many, it's not a fact :) .. Personally I think Graphic games are a waste .. the emphasis is more graphic then story.. and I for one like a good story over all then what I could find in something like Ever-Molest (tm) ..

Toril (sojourn) has kept me around simply for the fact of the Realm it is based in (sure you got graphic versions of FR too but.. blah) .. and I simply like to read so the descriptive elements of it keep me here too, along with a few people.

I've always considered a MUD'er a more mature style of gamer in my mind at least for the use of imagination in gameplay -vs- oh the game looks pretty it must be good..

On my home PC even I still play roguelikes only and don't even fire up my windows solitare :)
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:16 pm

Teklar wrote:
Graphic games are by far more rewarding.


While this may hold true for many, it's not a fact :) .. Personally I think Graphic games are a waste .. the emphasis is more graphic then story.. and I for one like a good story over all then what I could find in something like Ever-Molest (tm) ..

Toril (sojourn) has kept me around simply for the fact of the Realm it is based in (sure you got graphic versions of FR too but.. blah) .. and I simply like to read so the descriptive elements of it keep me here too, along with a few people.

I've always considered a MUD'er a more mature style of gamer in my mind at least for the use of imagination in gameplay -vs- oh the game looks pretty it must be good..

On my home PC even I still play roguelikes only and don't even fire up my windows solitare :)


hrm. there's a lot of story in world of warcraft. in fact there are several books that deal with the background of the black dragonflight and other things that really put an instance like Blackwing Lair into perspective.

what these games have that toril really doesnt is the ability to solo. only maybe two classes can solo here without being twinked out the arse. also all the graphical games are far less harsh on death penalties (i dont mean xp loss, i mean equipment loss) than we are.

although the xp system here doesnt need to be super easy or even as easy as WoW, it is a bit harsh for some classes here because of how damage xp works.

if damage xp was removed, and a flat xp per kill introduced for all classes, this might address some of this.
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Postby Gizep » Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:27 am

I actually find time for everquest and torilmud, but maybe I'm not mainstream. Course I just started back again after several months break, but hey :)
As long as we live in this world we are bound to encounter problems. If, at such times, we lose hope and become discouraged, we diminish our ability to face difficulties. If, on the other hand, we remember that it is not just ourselves but everyone who has to undergo suffering, this more realistic perspective will increase our determination and capacity to overcome troubles.
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Postby Nilan » Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:38 pm

I play both here and World of Warcraft.

Like both, both are very different types of games. Graphic games with pictures are easier for me cause not got lotta text which gets confusing for me. On WoW I can even lead places. heheh cause I can see the pictures I remember where things are better I do not seem to get directions and stuff mixed up there as I do here. But then I love the RP here. I just dont get that outta the graphic games as much.

Anyway I think its possible to play both places. Just gotta take the things you like outta both places. Thats what I do. I like both text and graphic games.

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Postby Yarash » Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:07 am

Teyaha wrote:...there's a lot of story in world of warcraft. in fact there are several books...

Reading books doesn't sound like part of the game to me. If there was an extensive storyline in the game, you wouldn't need to read books to understand what's going on.

And to people trying to understand why graphical games are generally more popular than text games, it's because they have graphics :P It's that simple.

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Postby Ragorn » Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:09 am

Yarash wrote:And to people trying to understand why graphical games are generally more popular than text games, it's because they have graphics :P It's that simple.

- Mike


Also, WoW has a paid staff that adds content, fixes bugs, and handles player issues on a weekly basis.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:46 am

Ragorn wrote:
Yarash wrote:And to people trying to understand why graphical games are generally more popular than text games, it's because they have graphics :P It's that simple.

- Mike


Also, WoW has a paid staff that adds content.


fixed
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Jhorr » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:24 pm

Slow exp is definitely a barrier to recruiting new players.

If we could retain more people early on, more player bonding would occur among newbies as they advanced in levels. This might encourage people to stick around a while to discover the awesome endgame we have.

When I started, it was common to hear 'life on Sojourn begins at level 41'. This for the most part is still true.

Scardale was an attempt to fix this but when someone spends all their time in Scardale, they don't get to see high end EQ being flashed around or large groups congregating to go zoning. These are like carrots on a stick (at least they were for me) to tell the newbie 'there is more to this game up ahead'.
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:38 pm

Jhorr wrote:Slow exp is definitely a barrier to recruiting new players.


I'm going to say something now I never thought I'd say. I don't think exp on Toril is too slow.

My first WoW character took just shy of 18 days of ptime to reach max level. My second character has 8.5 days and is still only level 50. If you twink out a WoW character and spend your time doing nothing but high-yield grinding, you can probably reach 60 in 6-7 days at the minimum.

That compares more or less favorably to Toril. I haven't leveled a character since DS went in, but I've heard some of you guys saying that a four-day level 50 is possible. I don't remember how long it took Ragorn to reach level 50 here, but I can't imagine it would take longer than 15-20 days to reach level 50 for a "first character."

The problem isn't how long it takes to level. The problem is that there isn't much to do before you're level 41, and so it FEELS like forever until you get access to the "fun bits" of the game, which all happen at high level.
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Postby Teyaha » Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:20 pm

Yarash wrote:Reading books doesn't sound like part of the game to me. If there was an extensive storyline in the game, you wouldn't need to read books to understand what's going on.



- Mike


isn't that how the entire background that this mud is based on was established - through books?
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Postby Teyaha » Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:23 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Jhorr wrote:Slow exp is definitely a barrier to recruiting new players.


I'm going to say something now I never thought I'd say. I don't think exp on Toril is too slow.

My first WoW character took just shy of 18 days of ptime to reach max level. My second character has 8.5 days and is still only level 50. If you twink out a WoW character and spend your time doing nothing but high-yield grinding, you can probably reach 60 in 6-7 days at the minimum.

That compares more or less favorably to Toril. I haven't leveled a character since DS went in, but I've heard some of you guys saying that a four-day level 50 is possible. I don't remember how long it took Ragorn to reach level 50 here, but I can't imagine it would take longer than 15-20 days to reach level 50 for a "first character."

The problem isn't how long it takes to level. The problem is that there isn't much to do before you're level 41, and so it FEELS like forever until you get access to the "fun bits" of the game, which all happen at high level.


i dont t hink a 4 day level 50 enchanter is possible. there is no damage xp for that class.

high amounts of damage xp is what makes it easy to level some classes here, and not so fun for other classes. maybe if this was removed and xp normalized for all classes at all levels, some of the xp grinding complaints will die down.

i know that the damag dealing classes have their tables adjusted because they receive large amounts of damage xp, but apparantly it's not enough of an adjustment. i think all of you have 50 rogues now.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:16 am

I still think a player-driven economy that involved more than just the auctioneer might help suck more people into Toril.
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Postby Kallinar » Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:22 pm

Kallinar wrote:...and I have also always wanted the economy system put back in (I mean damn, the cart salesman in Waterdeep serves absolutely no purpose but he is still there) ...
/end 2 c


Hi-5 Morispank
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Postby Dalar » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:08 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Jhorr wrote:Slow exp is definitely a barrier to recruiting new players.


I'm going to say something now I never thought I'd say. I don't think exp on Toril is too slow.

My first WoW character took just shy of 18 days of ptime to reach max level. My second character has 8.5 days and is still only level 50. If you twink out a WoW character and spend your time doing nothing but high-yield grinding, you can probably reach 60 in 6-7 days at the minimum.

That compares more or less favorably to Toril. I haven't leveled a character since DS went in, but I've heard some of you guys saying that a four-day level 50 is possible. I don't remember how long it took Ragorn to reach level 50 here, but I can't imagine it would take longer than 15-20 days to reach level 50 for a "first character."

The problem isn't how long it takes to level. The problem is that there isn't much to do before you're level 41, and so it FEELS like forever until you get access to the "fun bits" of the game, which all happen at high level.


Yep, you kinda have fun leveling in WoW. Also, there is a smooth increase in power as you go up in levels which this game doesn't. On Toril your power increases at certain points, which makes certain level ranges boring.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Iaiken Toransier » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:41 pm

I don't play here anymore and my reason is time.

A lot of young professionals like myself just simply do not have the time to accomplish anything on this game. Between school, kung fu, friends and my job; I stimply don't have the 4-6 hours to go do zones to pick up better gear than what my characters have.

This leads to a deminished sense of accomplishment and makes the game less interesting and fun to play. I do play WoW, I have several level 60's.. The difference is this; I can get more done in the 1-2 hours of casual play on WoW than I can ever hope to accomplish on Toril. With the exception of Molten Core or Blackwing and a few others, most instances can be done by a skilled group in under 2 hours.

In two hours I can usually lead my guildmates through instances, like strath, scholomance or Mauradon, twice or even three times if everything goes according to plan. Worst-case scenario sees us only getting it done once and me walking away empty handed.

The other important thing for me is that there are people to do things with. I could waste my entire playtime on Toril trying to get a group together to do something. Hell, my current guild has a higher playerbase online at any given time than this MUD.

Blizzard has poured a ton of resources into making WoW playable at every level and in many different ways so that they can maximize thier appeal to every sort of gamer... Whether you quest for 2 hours a week or grind for 80, blizz only gets $16... so it makes sense for them to try to attract as many casual players as they can because they make up the majority.

Creating a sense of accomplishment is even extended to how WoW's items are structured. Binding and level requisites prevent ubertwinking to a degree and control the market by forcing players to sell soulbound items to vendors. The constant influx of drops and items from quests keep the players interested and rewarded.

The calibre of the items also plays into this as well, blue and purple drops and rewards are much rarer and highly sought after even though the player will only be keeping them for 5-8 levels. In the end-game equipment sets give something for players to work towards, even though it means looking just like every other member of thier class.

I don't see torilmuds playstyle ever changing (it really hadn't changed that much over the 9 years I played here ) so I'll stick with games that suit my lifestyle rather than changing my lifestyle to suit a game...

PS: I ran into Adilmir the other day on my server... I was like "Adilmira, why is that name familiar?" What are the odds of that?
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:49 pm

Kung fu is weak. Go MMA Then we could see you on Spike someday!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:53 pm

The TorilMUD lifestyle. Log it. Text it. Alias it, baby.
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Postby Iaiken Toransier » Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:30 pm

Thilindel wrote:Kung fu is weak. Go MMA Then we could see you on Spike someday!


As I have oh-so-learned-the-hard-way, The style of martial art you practice is irrelevant, what matters is how you practice and apply it. I get to practice San Shou (free sparring) with people from all sorts of backgrounds including MMA and it all boils down to the indevidual. I've destroyed MMA practitioners and MMA practitioners have schooled me. I've seen smaller, less skilled indeviduals win against more skilled and experienced fighters through shear ferocity.
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sup sojourners?

Postby kanenan » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:02 pm

nm
Last edited by kanenan on Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stuff.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:04 pm

I'm bored?

Seems like a pretty decent reason to me.
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Postby daggaz » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:12 am

Hmm I'm studying quantum mechanics and nanotechnology.
When I'm not doing that, Im out drinking with friends and scoring beautiful RL danish chicks.

Go figure.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:14 pm

daggaz wrote:Hmm I'm studying quantum mechanics and nanotechnology.
When I'm not doing that, Im out drinking with friends and scoring beautiful RL danish chicks.

Go figure.


are they beautiful before or after the drinks was my first question :P

send pix was the next !
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Postby Silverast Rubicyn » Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:40 pm

In a measure of closure, I deleted Talsor the other day.

So long, and thanks for all the fish.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:07 pm

Elders of Netheril (Organization)
----------------------------------------

Members:
----------------------------------------
- Talsor | Member |


biggest, warmest hugs dear friend
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."



-Italian Proverb
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Postby Dalar » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:46 am

Silverast Rubicyn wrote:In a measure of closure, I deleted Talsor the other day.

So long, and thanks for all the fish.


I KNEW FANGTOOTH LIKED MEN.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby kragt » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:32 am

#1 Lack of small group activities. With the diminishing player base it is very difficult to get any kind of decent zone group together. There is a serious lack of zones that are possible with 5-10 man groups that yield anything decent.

#2 Time. A lot of mud players are getting to a point in their lives where they are unable to spend large amounts of time on a game. Most of us started in college or high school, but when you start having commitments like a job and family it is very hard to find time to mud.

#3 Time to level: Granted the time here is not much different than the time it takes on WoW, but experience here is insanely boring. You stay in the same zone killing the same mobs until your eyeballs bleed. IMO trophy penalties should be drastically increased and the xp to level drastically decreased. Other methods for gaining xp would be nice but I won't hold my breath.

#4 MMORPGs: Currently playin WoW, that game is worse than crack.

#5 Boredom: The game hasn't undergone any fundamental changes in a long time. It's basically the same game we have been playing for years with a few new zones added. Adding a new class or some other big ticket item might help spark interest again.
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:36 pm

kragt wrote:#5 Boredom: The game hasn't undergone any fundamental changes in a long time. It's basically the same game we have been playing for years with a few new zones added. Adding a new class or some other big ticket item might help spark interest again.


Reminds me of my several posts to have new sub-classes for battle style casters, or where Cyric said a race was coming, but wasn't. I mean this in no way to be a slam (seriously) but this eq calculator needs to be dumped if you really want balance. Get a group of great players like Lilithelle, Sarell, Dalar, and others who KNOW how hard things are to do, twinkability, and to get done by the FIC method. The eq calculator is rather oblivious to common sense AND it leads to complaining. Another example if gods would ask well known players their opinion first (I'm saying this because if you code a lot then I assume you can't play a lot as well - again I'm not at all trying to be negative) about changes to say . . guard, and how it was basically removed from the game, then it'd save frustration, etc. Anti-paladin's suck compared to paladins. Staying alive is what a tank does. AP's don't vamp from an opponent. Paladin's get life giving abilities and can refresh them per fight. AP's have to wait 24 minutes. Etc. If you want BALANCE, the common sense approach seems best.

I really think either god trusted, established players (again) such as Lilithelle, Sarell, Dalar, Jalahon...other true leaders should either have their own Topic Forum where they'd have their own password (so no 3rd person flaming and other garbage that gets in the way)..or a special channel on the mud. At least an open SELECTIVE forum for these type caliber players would give very good feedback and objectivity to aid a god's insight in considering an eq's stats, etc...
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Postby Lilithelle » Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:13 am

Exp too slow? I don't think so. I've heard of people getting characters up pretty fast. My ranger did 1-50 in 4 1/2 play days and I wasn't really trying, mostly exped, did 2 or 3 zones. Thilindel has gotten characters solo to upper 40s in 2 weeks. What makes a game old is when you have one of everything at 50 and no where to go. I'd rather see things made more linear so you can do more at lower levels, I think its not too bad that way for hitters/tanks, but mages stink at lower levels.

On Duris when I first leveled my druid to 50 after it shut down for a year or two and came back up it took me 8 play days and I was the 2nd fastest to 50. By the time I left I had made it from 1 to 50 as a caster in 45 play hours, right after a wipe so no decent eq. Things are less meaningful when you don't have to work for them.

Fundamental changes to the mud would add new interest I think like new classes or races, changes come much faster to Duris code and they're all volunteer gods too. I think the coders here could do alot more if they had more of a hand to make changes. Though I am encouraged by the melee changes to come, we'll see what happens after that. Oh and if you don't like the course of the mud feel free to make a god and work to make things better. Me, I decided I better not after my mouth got the better of me when I was a god briefly on Duris... I like free speach too much to become staff.
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