Melee Combat

[Demuladon]

Sarell took roughly

15 melee=6 tanks, 5 rangers, 4 rogues

8 healers=4 shamans, 2 clerics, bard,druid

6 mages =2 chanters,1ele,1ill,1lich,1nec

to Tia.


Maybe the need for major melee changes has passed?

[Arilin Nydelahar]

Considering all groups outside tia are 15 man groups, where you have one or two tanks, a few rogues a buncha casters I somehow doubt that. You can't really compare what we had in tia to normal.

[Abbayarra]

I'd like to see rangers to area damage on par with invokers but with arrows.

[Sarell]

I'd take voker over melee to most zones including tia.
I'd take rangers if melee was purely about damage.

To fix rangers/melee I'd first make arrows not get lost, good rangering would be more attractive if you could keep your years worth of quest arrows.

Increase or double the dice on all weapons, quadruple it on 2 handers so that warriors have another option and make parry with a 2 hander 50% more effective, so not as good as a shield for serious tanking, but different in some situations. I'm thinking you would select 1 and 2 hander through zones for the different encounters. The weapon you use should matter and this would allow more scope for weapon dice. I can't see why we can have 6dam crown entering the game when some of the most legendary weapons were reduced to less than this.

efhr are not the best. "Help Pava". Not going into it again in depth but my duergar is far more powerful, including on khanjari procs than my human.

Tanking. Reduce the power of defensive magics slightly, upgrade tanking skills slightly. It always get's broken when we do big jumps, let's see these legendary control knobs that were talked about when the new combat engine came in.

Reduce the ridiculous amounts of AC on new mage gear, velvet that outclasses any platemail from a couple of years ago is just silly. Make AC directly effect quick chant or something perhaps instead of restatting everything. Reduce the ridiculous amount of AC on new warrior gaer while at it, especially tia neck item which has just set the standard for silly.

Reduce the roller's averages in order to make the stats that effect melee matter some more. Make stats effect skills a bit more. As it stands I think str does effect your tanking a little bit, however no where near as much as the AC you can get on good agility. I still think barbarians are the best goodie tanks (exept for fire giants).

I like the idea of AC reducing damage, however it wouldn't work in the current environment of ridiculous AC on all new gear and grey elfs. Make AC cap at -100 period until displace / blur hits perhaps. As far as I'm concerned current grey elf antics are as bad bug exploitation as blurring the spirit was.

[Lahgen]

So...mages will have to sit on their hands at 1w with the rangers until some warrior comes to tank for them in an xp or a zone, like clerics and most other "core classes" do? You say that what they have now is as bad as bug exploitation...I guess my high level elf enchanter friend is hurting the mud by enjoying their class and finding all the cool stuff they can do with it? They should just shut up and join the rangers until a warrior tells them they can do something?

[Dalar]

Sarell took roughly

15 melee=6 tanks, 5 rangers, 4 rogues

8 healers=4 shamans, 2 clerics, bard,druid

6 mages =2 chanters,1ele,1ill,1lich,1nec

to Tia.


Maybe the need for major melee changes has passed?

They still took 12 hours to complete the zone. Dragons are a different story. If it was a zone filled with humanoids with no MR and special abilities, I'm sure Sarell would have taken 15 nukers.

[Nokar]

Well Touk and Vigis pretty much summed up what I would say but I'll still say it anyways.

As far as tanks go actually have tank skills mean something.
Why is it a lvl 50 warrior have a cap at 80 something for denfense and the onoly other things we can do it kick, bash, and headbutt?
Headbutt should have a chance as knocking out a mob of the characters size or smaller or maybe a slight bigger than the characters size or smaller. Like a bash headbutt combo for a dwarf or friggin awesome! Not only can you bash but you also have a chance to stun the mob while it's on the ground and when the mob regains it's senses you are able to bash that round and then headbutt again before it can get up... The only con to this is if you don't get off a stunning headbutt you're lagged and the mob gets up. If it is a caster they might get a spell off if it is a melee type mob they can and will bash you.

Warriors are weapon masters. How is it that we can only max out hitting a mob twice at level 50 with a master skill at one handed slashing. I could understand trying to swing a 20-30 pound 1handed sword once maybe twice a round. But a (magic) sword only swinging it twice a round while a mob can hit as high as 5 to 6 times per round un-hasted? Fighting styles should come into play here. A warrior should be able to gain an extra attack or at least do more damage at higher levels. Paladin's, Anti-paladins, rogues have a weapon that can heal them and is their class only. Do warriors still have that option? I don't think avernus is still in the game is it? I could understand paladins and Anti-paladins having a wepons like that due to divine intervention but a rogue? Why not a warrior? Hell make it a quest item or a Tia tier item. I have seen anti's and pallies plvl up to 50 in like 2-3 days using their epic weapon. Warriors are dependent on enchanters, clerics, or bards to get past certain levels. Unless they have complete uber stuffs! and even then. Warriors have nothing that is a definite blind, definite minor or major para, etc.. Where as a rogue can at lvl 21 solo all kinds of mobs that con are you mad? with a simple blind poison provided they get a good backstab.

I feel that there should be SEVERAL bones thrown to the warrior as a class in general.. They last new thing we got was shieldblock and shieldpunch. and how damn long ago was that? The class is not balanced when you try to compare it to any other class in this game. Hell bards can solo more than a warrior... In a straight up fight.. fist to fist... a warrior would hand a bards, rogues, casters ass to them. They may even hand a rangers ass to them as well due to the ability to take more hits and hit harder. I can understand that rangers have that knack for dual wielding well if thats the case then give them a reflexive skill for a vital strike.
How about warriors getting that skill as well...
Like in my previous posts on warriors getting new skills. Not called stuff but reflexive skills. Even now.. Give me a shield and a weapon and let me go up against an opponent. I can open that person up with the shield and have a clear shot at lung, under the arm to disable their weapon arm, hamstringing the leg so they cant stand, sometimes even spinning the person around that I could have a wide open shot of all the bodies organs from the rear.
Give credit where credit is due for warriors skill with a shield. as of right now the only reason warriors wear a shield is for the possibility of blocking and when we actually get to bash now or when it is a !bash mob shieldpunching the mob. Other than that the shield has no other effect on melee when it should make a huge difference. and pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeez! don't tell me that a lvl 50 warrior would get his ass handed to him by an unarmed mob when he is fully armed and has a shield and weapon.

Rangers, Rogues, and warriors should be allowed the opportunity to have quest skills just as casters have quest spells.

Third attack-self explanitory
1h Flurry- A called skill that has lag like bash and also can't be done back to back. Allows the melee fighter to have a chance at striking NUMEROUS times untill hit or a stirke is blocked stopping the momentum of the character. Take a look at certain sword and 1handed axe styles. You can strike initally then go into your flurry (special move for all you nintendo generation out there) and gain ground and momentum each strike you make.
2h flurry- same as flurry but with a single 2handed weapon
Dual flurry- Same as 1h flurry but while dual wielding.
These are possible even in real life. You strike once to take the person off guard or off balance and then rush them or throw a lot of strikes one right after the other. Unless your momentum is stopped the opponent has no chance at recovery unless they give up group and retreat a few steps.

Vital strike- Higher than normal chance for weapon and shield style, Normal chance for 2handed weapon style and slightly higher chance than normal for dual wielding.

If you have parry why not have thrust as well. Look at basic fencing. That is based on parries and thrusts. Why cant the same be true for out melee system.

For our 1h bludgeon classes there should definitely be a flurry option or skill. You should research how the celt and scots wielded 1handed axes and 1 and 2 handed hammers. 1 and 2 handed morningstars and 1 handed maces. The bludgeoning weapons especially should get more than 1 or 2 strikes since they don't stick in the opponent. They dont slash or cut as persay. They hit and bounce off or back. If your a master at that weapon you learn how to use that for additional momentum.

Seriously look at all melee combat. It definitely needs something. As far as caster spell damage doing less I strongly disagree. It's magic! but how the damage is dealt is also something I disagree with as well.

For example.. A fireball any element based as well as lightning, gas, or acid based spell that is target or area based.. It's damage should last more than one round. Magical fire or not. You hit a person with a fireball the fire just doesnt miraculously(sp) go out as soon as it hits. Especially if you hit something made of cloth or wood or something that has a low flash point. It stays burning or smoldering. Acid is just the same but worse! It eats through just about anything.

I understand this is a fantasy game but there should still be some things that shoud be looked at on a realistic level.

And if this is based on a forgotten realms theme. We should have those extremely RARE occurances where a player is able to do more than the normal class/race combination can do. These people even exist in real life.

Well I've rambled on enough. Feel free to pm me any flames, dissagreements, etc. L8r all

[Sarell]

Just trying to put it into one post since every keeps bringing it up and I can't seem to make it clear. Next time I lead tia I'm taking vokers if I can get them. I had 3 vokers not turn up for the last trip. EVERY fight was either a huge pack or done in runs of damage. Vokers >>> melee even with the MR.

[Lilira]

Here is an idea. Its one that goes back to the old mages, but can be applied to warriors.

What about at 20th, 30th, and 40th, there's a small list of skills a warrior can select to either completely master (perhaps like defense) or some new skills they can select (perhaps some off other classes to save on coding new ones ie. Vital Strike). That way you have a warrior who elected to become perfect with 1h sword and shield (basically perfecting shieldblock). Hey that silly dwarf might be short, but he's DAMN fast as rescuing.. he can do it twice for everyone else's once!

You can pick a weapon style to gain bonus attacks in. That way warriors will be PROFICIENT in all forms, but truly have one perfected. WOW! Look at that dwarf go! He had his sword and shield out, but he whipped out the 2h axe and can smite twice as fast!

[Vigis]

Is it me, or does Lilira have a dwarf fetish? :p

[Lilira]

I blame Nokar.

I responded immediately after his post, and his sig does have my hubby's name in it...

[Shevarash]

There's alot of good discussion in this thread, thank you for the feedback!

[kiryan]

If a mob has more than 50% MR invokers are no where close to as much damage as a ranger or a rogue.

Get rid of fumble to the ground, change it to fumble to inventory unless admins guarantee replacing fumbled weapons after crash.

Change archery so you don't lose arrows to crash.

Change "hit" messages to provide more detail about the amount of damage of the hit.

"strength of hit measured in damage" , "descriptor based on amount of damage relative to remaining hps"

Your massive slash barely wounds a Frost Giant. (great hit, mob has lots of hps left)
Your strong pierce barely wounds a Frost Giant. (good hit, mob has lots of hps left)
Your weak slash barely wounds a Frost Giant. (weak hit, mob has lots of hps left)
Your weak slash enshrouds a Frost Giant in a mist of blood. (weak hit, mob almost dead at the same rate of damage)

give some "skills" negative affects on melee combat. For instance if you are trying to disarm, reduce the # of attacks for a couple rounds. If you circle, reduce AC for a couple of rounds. If you get bashed or fail a trip, reduce your hit/dam/# of attacks until you stand. With more negatives associated with skills you get more interesting combat and you can add higher percentage, more powerful and positive effects.

[Nekelet]

"...strength of hit measured in damage" , "descriptor based on amount of damage relative to remaining hps"
...

Seen the idea tons before, but never with such a good description & spin.

Hi5 man.

[Nekelet]

Off the wall comment regarding rangers...

Seems everyone concurs that they'll never (should not) be awesome tanks - work in a pinch, but not for very long...

So, since the above limitation would limit solo cheese a bit, what if rangers could self-globe, by whatever name makes sense. Heck, even add it as an effect of natures blessing.

[Lahgen]

Great ideas Kiryan, but what new difficulties and inconveniences will be added to the game to make up for losing the risk of losing your weapons/arrows?

[Thilindel]

Y should you have a risk? If your DM says 'ok, guys my mom's calling, I'm out now!' You don't lose your weapons. When the mud crashes you do!

[kiryan]

hmm i already thought the risk vs reward was already very deficient for arrows...

i mean magma arrows are 2 / 4 hour zone for 15 people? the manscops quest arrows are 4x20-30 minutes of work for 2-3 people per boot? The 4, SH ones are 30-40 minutes of work for 3-5 people?

Thats a lot of work to lose say 40 on average to a crash while fighting (lets say most combat is 30 rounds long and your firing 3 arrows a round)... If these quests/zones were giving out 25 or 50 arrows at a time, that might make the loss of say on average 40 arrows on a crash worth it.... however, id have to question that still given there are really no eq sinks in the game... cept the fabled rust monster? Archery is amazing, but not amazing enough to risk losing 10 hours of work and 10 reboots worth of work to an ill timed crash.

----

The fact that you can drop weapons and not get reimbursed has made the NODROP flag a standard for high end weapons. For those exceedingly rare not NODROP weapons that are worth wielding, CURSE is heavily employed to render them NODROP. This is a game play imbalance of a different sort.

There is really no negative to !drop and therefore it has become the unquestionable dominant option for weapons. You shouldn't have to waste eq calcr points (even if it is a meager amount) on a NODROP flag just to make it a viable weapon option.

Compare the negative of !drop to droppable. One you can lose to a crash, water, !ground, the other option simply means its a bit inconvenient after ress/in your inventory.

While throwing your sword on the ground and having a mob pick it up is a great and entertaining DYNAMIC, if it crashes 30 seconds later its completely UNFAIR as you can not then kill the mob to get it back afte reboot.

[Maedor]

a mob can hit as high as 5 to 6 times per round unhasted

No they can't

[daggaz]

I think the easiest, fastest (and maybe best) solution to the arrow thing is to just up the loads on them. It *IS* crazy to do so much work for four good arrows, especially when...

1. You need WAY more than four to be effective in a fight.
2. Boots commonly last 60+ hours these days.
3. You need a small group and some hours to quest the good ones.
4. You are competing with all the other archers out there to get them.
5. In the end, you WILL eventually lose a bunch in a crash.

10-25 arrows per quest seems like a better number to me. If they start flooding the mud, could always code in higher breakage or stray arrows that get lost.

[teflor the ranger]

Equipment hoarding is a problem with arrows, especially since a player needs to complete an arrow quest 30-60 times to have an effective loadout.

[Thilindel]

Couldn't help but wonder about Anti-paladins. I been asking several paladins who have AP's as well. Anti's clearly aren't equal to a paladin. That, and dk is -how- many times harder to get than avenger? :P Imho, AP's should get 8th circ vamp touch. And before someone thinks this is overpowering, if some reason they did, just think how long it takes to pray up and do it over and over.

[Delmair Aamoren]

Now, i do agree with you that antis need something. Vamp touch, however, is not the answer. We already get a skill very similar to vamp touch. Its called lifetap. Adding an ability that after X level an anti can drain a % of damage done with his melee weapon would effectively have the same bonus, and if this is a relatively small percent, it can give a bonus, and be great RP stuff, but not be an imbalance. If it wouldn't be a coding hassle, the overall percentage could be upped a bit in exchange for the effectiveness vs various creature types being removed. IE it makes no sense to drain life from elementals or other non-living creatures.

[Shevarash]

Bump.

[Vipplin]

Preface: I’ve been out of the game for awhile, trying to squeeze it in again now between work and family but don’t have a lot of recent experience and so take this with a couple of grains of salt. I have read a crapload of the info posted by the people with recent experience, though.

I think it is appropriate for rangers’ archery to do more damage than rogues can do, but melee should be less than rogues can do when both classes have their respective best in game eq and are using all their skills. Not talking RL reasons, here, just game balance. Rangers’ arrows break and get lost, they have to carry @55loads of them, and they have to stay disengaged (not tanking) for their best method of damage to work. The rewards should be appropriate. Also, it would be GREAT to have some called shot ability or something ANYTHING for rangers to spice up the fight while using archery.

Example… I am pretty sure stuff like this has been suggested before…Called Shot could work like…“call guard leg” (effect: trip/bash) “call mage eye” (effect: blind) “call warrior hand” (effect: disarm). Make the skill work like kick (use in addition to normal attacks with lag time) or make it take the place of a normal round of attacks. Adjust the success rate as necessary for game balance. Maybe if rangers had something like this they’d be more on par with rogues for overall usefulness? What about a sort of area fire mode that instead of shooting 3 arrows at one mob shoots 1 arrow each at all mobs in the room (better bring a few extra quivers for that one!)?

Also liked the flurry attacks idea Nokar mentioned above.

Idea for quest skills was a cool one. Maybe do that for called shot or areafire abilities?

I don’t like the idea I’ve heard that we should choose to have rangers go one way or the other. I like being able to go both ways (so to speak…) and it rings true when I imagine what a ranger’s skills should be.

Idea for major change… how about letting ranged attacks (archery, damage spells, etc.) be able to be used from a different room and really do damage? Would be very hard to implement, I know, due to twinking possibilities. Maybe only work if someone in your group is in that room in combat with the target? *shrug* I just see it as a realism thing – why would my ranger stand close enough to let a troll turn around and attack him instead of the tank? No need for realism, though if it interferes too much with the game! Long live Toril!

P.S. Not specifically a melee issue, but I’d like to see every class be able to solo mobs of their level with equipment from only zones of their level. Seems like a decent indicator of at least some balance issues. I haven’t played all classes so I don’t know how this shakes out.

Vadian

[Adriorn Darkcloak]

Any word Shev as to when these changes will be implemented? This week? This month? Thanks.

[Llaaldara]

"Soon"