Sincerely..

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Thilindel
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Sincerely..

Postby Thilindel » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:31 pm

I was just thinking about some of the pros and cons of the game.

XP is the main thing. I, without doubt, have found cleric to be the hardest by far to xp. What I tire of hearing is 'xxx isn't too hard' or 'wasn't too bad' etc. For a casual player, this mud is entirely too hard to xp. Groups don't want extra people in it. You can have any kind of graphic game where you have levels 1-50 (for example). It won't take you MONTHS of casual playing to hit highest levels.

When a chanter, cleric, or other non-offensive type fails a res, I just damned near want to quit. It just bothers me a lot that I know I just blew at least 2 or 3 hours just catching up to where I already was. The way you learn this mud and how to play is by exploring and being in certain situations that are group oriented or soloist style. As everybody says 'mindnumbing xp, or even on LFG, 'XP!'

It's hard enough to get new people. Let alone most won't group newbies because it slows xp. Lately, lots are rushing to xp for tiamat. XP isn't even remotely fun, nor does it excite your attention. . .

As a rogue, when xp'g..why must you assist, circle, circle _or_ trip trip etc
As chanter, why blur, stone/scale, mem out over and over and over?
As cleric, why must ya vit, fheal etc...? Seriously, WHY?
Quests help players get better. Grouping helps somewhat. Solo'g definitely helps. But why must we conform to hours of DS?

I think it'd be great have to have a style of fight per class that you must overcome in order to level. This way you know what the hell you're doing on the mud...When you are at your guildmaster, you try to level. He'll ask if you're ready to face your test. Then you get teleported where you face off against a type of fight you must win in order to level. Fleeing causes you to have to retry, any potions etc, still are lost you may have used, and this way, 3rd parties can't interfere. Lastly, I'd add that if you 'fail' and are ko'd, that there is no penalty.

I'm not even so sure on that style. I definitely don't want to walk back to my guildmaster once per level. I'm not asking for that but all I'm saying is I'm totally sick of failing res. I'd hate to see Deshana go off on it. I have lost around 600% (lvl 50's) at least of xp. This isn't fun. Specially when you are en route to lvl 50 and you fail res. The sole reason for playing the class that you're trying to level is to compensate for the lack of playerbase and a weakness in the class' numbers on the mud at any given time.

A sidenote...What good is hitting 50 in the first place? Max spells still fail, quick chant still fails, you still fumble, etc etc etc. Mobs above 50 never fail. Sure they fumble but they hit so hard, it doesn't really matter. *sigh*

I really like the mud, but the xp system really does a good job repulsing me from trying to build a char to make up for lacking playerbase.
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Postby Disoputlip » Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:00 pm

If any new players read this take into consideration that if you choose to go grey enchanter it's gonna be a part of the game to fail ress and be fustrated.

About the rest of the thread I disagree. Gods changed xp tables so you fairly easy reach 45, and then 46 to 50 is the hard levels, but you often gain xp from zonage.

IMHO it has to be "hard" to get 50. Making it easy solves nothing.
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Postby selerial » Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:22 pm

Disoputlip wrote:About the rest of the thread I disagree. Gods changed xp tables so you fairly easy reach 45, and then 46 to 50 is the hard levels, but you often gain xp from zonage.

IMHO it has to be "hard" to get 50. Making it easy solves nothing.


The problem is that it isn't, and hasn't been for a long time, "hard" to get level 50. Part of why I play games is story, and another part is exploration. Exploration takes place both in the world and in learning your skills and how to use them.

I think that most people who complain about xp (or DS, the worst example of this) are like myself in that they've basically explored enough of the world and enough of their skills that they don't really see a boundary to push towards any longer.

I'll contrast two rather stark examples of places which could be considered "xp" zones. First, you have DS. It is a sanctuary for druids. There are forest giants in the forest. There's not really anything else in the zone, aside from the token faeries and what have you. The mobs are all high level and give good xp. Is there a reason to be killing them? Yes. Because they give good xp. There's no vaguely RP reason, nor is there any loot reason (the cash is specifically made low since it's strictly an xp zone).

Second, you have "airship". It's a ship floating in mid-air that moves around from city to city. The mobs are all relatively high level, and while the xp they give isn't stunning, it's still pretty good. Then, you have about a million quests that all layer and intertwine in a variety of ways and even force you (perhaps a little arbitrarily) to go to other zones for stuff. Is there a reason to kill the mobs on the airship? Yes. They give drops (some soso, some quite good). They give cash. They give xp. They give quests for some fairly good equipment. To fully complete some of these quests will take a person weeks, if not months, depending on what they're after. This keeps a person interested in both the zone and in mudding in general.

Unfortunately, there aren't really any strong guilds any more that can regularly field a zone group, which means that you just have to happen to be on at the right time to do a zone. Then you have a random chance that an item you might want has loaded. Then you have a random chance of winning the item. ...soooo even after you've xp'ed DS a million times and gotten to 50, all you're really doing is grinding/gambling for higher-end equipment. Or you can solo zones if you're the right class, but that takes longer than doing it as a group, and most soloable zones don't have exciting rewards.

I guess this whole post ended up being sort of an explanation for why I don't do much on the MUD any more. It's probably also an explanation for the res/fembo/well/etc and quit syndrome.. you have this great skill, but either it becomes a bother of sorts (for virtually every class), or requires an obscene quest to complete (for ellies, though the strength of the spell is worth it, to be fair). Once you've completed the quest, what else is there to do? Gather a million platinum? To what end? Get better gear? Why? So you can look more flashy while standing around WD?

I also want to say that I have great respect for the effort the forgers have put in the game, and I don't wish to diminish the person/people that worked on a zone like DS, but it is basically the most obvious and well referenced example of the flaw of modern Toril xping.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:02 pm

Yeah, and the point that what are you learning while you just assist over and over in DS, pirate ship, etc? The xp process takes way too long. It also takes FROM the mudding experience. Like randars brings an element of chaos, for being unpredictable. But in a group of three, it takes 3-4 DS mobs per %. That's 4 HUNDRED per level around lvl 47. It only escalates from there.

Boring repetition is what yields level here, not skill and survivability on the seat of your pants. How many 'noobs' are out there who are level 50? Anybody can just sit behind the keys and assist in xp zones. The falacy in logic on 'xp is faster now than ever' is it needs to be based on present time games, not how things used to be. How many people can claim each night after xp'g that they've LEARNED something while droning behind the leader and assisting ?

But the res failing thing ...that's just a kick to the groin after being bishlapped from dying in the first place.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:03 am

Zones like DS and Ship and Blip etc. serve no purpose except to be a bandaid for the larger problem which really wasn't ever adressed. Players have cried for years for zone experience to yield better experience overall than mindlessly slaying things.

As it stands now, you are not even able to bring 4-5 people to jot to do experience because of changes made specifically to limit the number of people going to a place(ahem fucking branches*worstchangeever*).

If trophy worked correctly and there was a better modifier for experience gained vs. distance from hometowns, none of this would be an issue. Most of the best old-school "exp" zones were still engaging enough to require someone to be around. Tower, Wizzies et al. and people actually have fond memories of doing these things. No one has fond memories from DS, or ship etc.

It would be easier than hell to put a single bitvector into the .zon file based on a scale so that all mobs loading in the zone had their experience affected by some such percentage or whatever is figured out to be appropriate. Killing demons and dragons in Tiamat should yield 10x more experience than being afkrogue in DS.
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:35 am

totally agree. Specially when dragons word and some single char goes off and finishes it - only to gain 1 or 2% That's nuts.
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Postby Glorishan » Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:51 am

This counts as a vote to un-nerf wizzies and tower xp and all old fun zones. Jot grid xp used to be so much fun, one of the best places to do exp. But now those branches are there, grrr, agree on worst change ever.
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Postby Yasden » Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:55 am

It'd be nicer to just put a room proc at the room 1w of Jot to make 1-2 branches load to stop you from entering. This concept was applied to random parts of the Ashtone area, I don't see why it can't be done there.

It doesn't outright remove the ease of twinking Jot rares, and it makes it simple enough for an grid xp group to go up there relatively easy instead of having to worry about hidden/sneaking branches walking in on a 10 minute pop timer while they try to smite their way through.
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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:05 am

still not sure what the problem is with twinking jot and muspel rares... shrug
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby daggaz » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:08 am

DS and ship(s) are boring as hell and the RP sucks but hey guess what...

They are *not* the only places you can go. Why not form a group and try xp in an aggro zone, there are plenty that give pretty decent xp. Smash into brass, for example, with smallest group you dare to take. Its fun AND great xp. Explore the UD and smite some driders and other aggro nasties. Put your metal where your mouth is, and clear ET grid, if you dare. Or bust into Jot, branches or not, its not impossible... hell its not even that hard. (tho i still think branches sucks for solo'ers who might just wanna look around and learn those zones, should be some way in, with risk, if you are skilled enough).

I never xp in so called xp-zones, and Ive got a fat buffer on my enchanter too.

Whining about it on the bbs aint gonna change much for you in the near future. Get out there and learn the game. (Xping 5 alts to 50 in DS and bitchin about it isnt exactly proficiency).

Tho I do agree with the jist of your post, just the tone sucked.

Up XP in all eq zones that currently have low xp due to the point system, eq possibilities should have no effect on XP values and vice-versa. Downgrade DS drastically, or make the fights challenging and risky by tossing in some aggros and giving some mobs listen/assist and-or track. Pship is probably fine, its not great in big groups and you would have to be insane doing it for more than an hour, but its decent xp for solo-2-3 players.
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Postby daggaz » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:21 am

Making xp count more the farther away you are from the hometown is a not a good idea because there are multiple races/hometowns, not to mention camping. Sure can just slow the machine down a bit processing diff. distance flags for every char for every kill, but even then, why get a big bonus for walking? Its not like walking is hard in this game, just time consuming. Most roads go for miles and miles and are very safe, if not mind-numbingly-boringly so. Dwarves could walk on down to Calimport and xp in those new mines and they would get INSANE bonuses...
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:17 pm

Corth wrote:still not sure what the problem is with twinking jot and muspel rares... shrug


Because later in the boot, a real group goes through and realizes that someone has already chewed the luscious candy center out of their tootsie pop. Nobody wants to get a group into a zone only to realize that a rogue and illusionist twinked out all the good items ten hours earlier.
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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:49 pm

Shrug, nothing else worth going for in those zones anyway ragorn. The luscious candy center IS the zone.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Thilindel » Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:46 pm

Dag, what person thinks xp is fine as it is? You show me. Then I'll show you someone who has too much time. Who were you referring xp'd 5 alts to 50 in ds in the first place? Oh, and Corth is one I know who only did zones and didn't put up with the bullsh*t of xp'g mindlessly, wasting time. Corth is lvl 46 and a very well known leader.

Downgrading xp period is a very bad idea. Good example: You take someone who's done pirate ship xp for 5 hours straight. They assist leader for FIVE hours...weee, we'll assume it's a rogue who was assisting. Now what did the PLAYER learn from assisting over and over? Classes like enchanter, cleric, prolly illusionist, and other completely weak offensive classes are a real bitch to level. The whole point is they have to assist, cast, mem out OVER and OVER, rinse and repeat - just 10x more than the rogue, while gaining 1/10 the xp rate.
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Postby Lathander » Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:48 pm

Are casual players really the right target market? Personally, I think the more dedicated players are the more valuable ones. Thoughts?

BTW, Corth doesn't play simply because he is busy leveling in real life. No matter what if anything could be done, folks like Corth and myself will never again be folks that play for 10 to 12 hours a day.

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Postby Thilindel » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:03 pm

yeah, and that part sucks. Myself, I'm a follower - That and with a special needs child I can't lead...I hate the idea of leading. I don't mind exploring, but I fear deathtraps like KV temple. What the post mainly points to is trying to xp an alt to compensate for evening zoning where leader says 'well, we've 13 ppl and need a chanter/cleric/shaman' Very typical. I'm altogether eager to see !possible res failure. Dying's penalty is slowing the group down. Walking from viper tongue alone sucks. Deathmem for lich is 6 minutes. For other classes, or zoning it's just insult to injury failing res pre-50 on a 'hard' class to xp. My voker is still under 300% because res failure is so high.

Even if xp tables were cut in half for cleric/enchanter, or other very lacking offense classes, it'd take a long time to level. I had an ungodly time solo'g ferns with their fancy fronds last night! Ouch. Lvl 37 cleric getting 2-3% per kill on lvl 48-49 mobs. Fronds make them over 2x harder. They hit VERY hard with them, but seem to be worth the same xp as the non-wielding ones. Yet again, it's 'luck'. True that there are TONS of places to xp, but it takes several minutes to solo just the one. Obviously, you see a lot of time involved. Also, daggaz was speaking of the possibility people are grouping for xp. As I've seen, that's not very easy to get a group now. So often that's not the case. You see your local well eq'd player who doesn't really want your help.

I also said there are different styles to learn for xp. Soloist xp is a different run than group. We all know some fights are ele soloable, wherein same fight can lead to a small group dying. Tactics.
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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:54 pm

Lathander wrote:Are casual players really the right target market? Personally, I think the more dedicated players are the more valuable ones. Thoughts?

Lath


Yes, more dedicated players are more valuable. But thats a little bit off topic. I think the subject of this thread is more along the lines of doing something about XP, which of course is long overdue.

Levels are supposed to reflect demonstrated competence at playing a particular class. Mindlessly blowing through the so-called xp zones does not demonstrate competence in anything other than mindlessly blowing through the so-called xp zones. Myself, along with a good part of the mud would like to see XP changed to something of more substance. Encouraging people to overcome challenges for their levels, rather than submit to tedium, is a no brainer.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Kallinar » Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:03 pm

I kinda agree with that. I'd like to see levels gained based on your accomplishments related to skills, or quests done or zones completed. Of course Kallinar would be like level 25 still if it worked like that because I hardly ever got into zone groups. One cannot grow if one is not given the chance to do so by ones peers in this game.

Gotta make it work for the people that can't devote a ton of time here as well or else you're just asking for even more people to walk away.
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Postby Demuladon » Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:48 am

Thilindel wrote:
Lvl 37 cleric

Find a voker and 2 man smoke xp?
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Postby Thilindel » Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:00 am

yeah, I used to do that when there were 300 ppl on a few yrs ago but the pbase is rather random now.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:32 am

Shevarash GCC: 'The current exp system is crap, and will be reworked or most likely rewritten.'


It'll come.
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Postby Mirlantharn » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:37 am

Glorishan is correct: the older exp zones were loved by a good many players. Compared to DS and even a fairly new zone, they still are _utterly_ useless for exp'ing now.

I'll agree 100%: quest and zones should give more exp than _any_ exp zones. And I've already mentioned a nicer way to create better exp for the newbies and lowbies: In a group doing a zone, give the _entire_ group an additional (sizeable) amount of exp for bringing along someone less than 5 levels lower than the average of the top (say roughly) 4 players in the group, and an ADDITIONAL bonus for each player in the group that hasn't completed the zone (more on this concept in a bit...) for X amount of times before.... Ie, 2 players having never done the zone before and a third that's been there once before... 3x the exp bonus.
How to know that you've completed the zone? An object requirement of having X mobs always done and Y random mobs also done (not necessarily killed, but that seems to be the overall situation here), and upon leaving the zone should be awarded this extra exp bonuses.

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