Things that would make a trip to tia more fun (or any zone)

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
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Things that would make a trip to tia more fun (or any zone)

Postby Sarell » Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:41 am

Number 1 Tia horror: Make it so you don't get ungrouped when you die. This is especially horrible in a zone like tia where if you arn't in the zone you can't regroup people.

Glist: make it so that items on glist can only be deleted by you, but you can still hand your bag over for res.

Corpses: make corpses places in the morgue auto pres. Make the morgue room proc (mortician) pres perhaps. The corpses would still rot when really old, but saves several hours of pressing, or changing character to pres when you are alone at wierd hours.

More corpses: Make an infirmary in the morgue, where res effect is /4. When you are ressing 20 corpses, your talking about some serious boring time.

Muiltple consents. If you could consent more than one person at a time, when every goes afk for and hour when tia falls, or when your dragging more bodies and someone needs a res, etc etc etc.. omg multipple consents.

Who am I following? Show this on score right there near followers? No need to spam refollow all the time.

Upgrade trophy, downgrade tables. How come I get no exp for killing tiamat?

I'd also like to note the movealone is thre best thing in the lands. Any ideas as good as it need to appear instantly!
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Postby kiryan » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:26 pm

on some muds when you die you go to a room called nirvana (instead of exiting the game). You go to nirvana because if something in your guild is killing you, you wont just repop and die. Please implement this.

It would address several things that we find annoying including:

1. losing glist on death
2. being ungrouped and having to wait / watch for consent to regroup
3. losing consents

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multiple consents, its a no brainer and would make CRing easier if you also implement the next idea below. (also, if you could consent someone for a few hours like if you have to log off that would be nice too, theres several threads on consent).

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make drag SKIP arguments for which you don't have consent, are too heavy or are not there AND display why each argument failed. There is an art to dragging that doesn't need to exist.

or just re-imp drag all.pcorpse without the strength check that we had before.

area corpse glamour, make a corpse glamour staff questable / purchasable?

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implement a necro spell that teleports corpses to somewhere like the morgue or to some new plane of death / rot where they can be "cr'd" easily. Soul Walk is an amazing spell, but the corpse management is really really annoying... Seriously why do we need to spend hours "ressing" in zone or drag hundreds of corpses through the zone?

Area preserve, give it to necros and moritheil i mean druids. make each cast about 2x a preserve.

-----------

I like the mortician preserve and infirmirary ideas... I don't know if this is "trivializing" death, most people think losing the EXP is bad enough... but since we don't have to ress in zone anymore (soul walk) why do people need to spend hours getting ressed (and a cleric hours ressing them).

The only negatives i see to the idea are...

1. clerics would never have to ress again if you could find an active necro to play. zones would go faster (especially if we can implement the corpse tele spell).

2. if we stop ressing in zone, and you can get reduced ress effects in the infirmirary (bard song), bard song becomes a infrequently used skill.

3. dieing / ressing wouldn't be such a pain to get handled, you could just drag your corpse to the morgue for auto press and it would be easier to convince a cleric to come ress you if they knew they weren't gonna have to sit there for 1 hour ressing 10 corpses.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:51 am

I had some comments on the Tiamat zone itself, so I guess I'll throw em in here.

Consort fights: awesome. Its cool to see fights that had cool twists, I'd llove to see more of this kinda stuff in the game. Especially the black consort fight, hard and long but I like it.

Tiamat herself: PWK/heal might be a bit too much. Doing one round run ins seems to be the only viable way to kill her, which makes this probably the most boring fight in the zone. At least with the 5 ancients everyone gets to go in and kill once its down to a couple.

Overall, I thought the zone was great, but oh boy was it the most boring zone ever to cleric. Ghealing out the ass just makes clerics vit machines wiith the occasional opportunity to heal. We sat out of so many fights that there wasn't even a need to heal as the bard/shamans can put out so much more healing than we can.
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Postby Glorishan » Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:02 am

I disagree somewhat with Gormal here. Tia is the most fun place to cleric IMO. I often get bored in most zones as a cleric. Yes, you sit out of many fights as a cleric, but there was never a time when I just sat w/o casting full heals between runs. Maybe it's cause I was so good at it that Kaln had nobody to heal! Tia rocks, but lots of good ideas so far in this thread.
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:40 am

you only died once, glori! 'course it was fun for you heh. pretty awesome to be tia zone and just have one corpse =D
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Postby Gura » Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:36 pm

i was bored out of my mind in tia. sorry glor :-p even with all the casting it was a boring.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:51 pm

We were all casting full heals but it really didn't help all that much. 4 gheals = 30 fheals.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:16 pm

i thought the tiamat fight was good, the pwk proc went off at an appropriate rate although it could maybe be a bit higher to make the fight "harder".

By harder i mean tia got a chance to heal when she would kill 10-15 people off because it would be pointless to keep charging with 3/4 of the group dead, so we would spend 5 minutes soul walking and buffing while she healed.

I might also prefer to see her have a higher healing rate and cut down the PWK proc that way players could affect how much she healed by how long it takes them to "cr". Also, the death count could go up, and we all know thats bonus ;). I died once or twice to the pwk proc, i died a lot from being tailswept in round 2 or 3 (people were generally fleeing out at 2.5-4 than the proc and the 5 head breath proc.

---------

clerics and tiamat is really no different than any other zone with the possible exception of spob and seelie; its frightfully boring to cleric any zone. you should take the cleric comments off into a whole separate thread rather than try to say tiamat somehow makes clericing more boring than in other zones. At least you actually have to cast full heals at tiamat (when a tank is down 1200 hps).

The main components that make some of spob different are the fights are tracking and longish, so clerics are in combat and do mem out... also because there are undead in spob clerics have the option of offense (disruption burst). Beacuse of the pris spray proc, clerics have to purify and cure blind (or heal) in seelie and generally be on their toes.
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Postby Yasden » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:30 pm

The pwk proc also appeared to give her back 10x the amount of hps she drained, in case you didn't notice. Bad bad baaad idea, unless you want to up the rate of the toss proc or 5-head breathing. :P
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Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:35 pm

I was just responding to the idea that the pwk proc should be reduced and suggesting how you could do that.

Personally, I think tia is fine, the proc rates generated enough corpses but weren't occuring at a sickengingly stupid rate.
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Postby Sarell » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:28 am

I'd like her to kill you in a different way that PWK drain. I believe it has been coded and just wasn't working or something. The PWK made the tia fight really boring because we could not possibly do it in a run longer than 2 seconds. We just used the time she casted heal to attack her then run away again. The casting of heal didn't matter so much, when she PWKed someone we all sighed. I'd lower the rate of the drain and make some of her other procs more frequent. Not the 5 heads, because that just kills everyone and is also quite boring. Up the rate of single heads, wing buffets, so you ahve a constant ongoing fight. 2 shamans could sit in and gheal until she buffets them, then other two come in while lagged, cycle it like that and stuff!

Still, not losing group / glist on death would be the greatest thing to make it more fun.
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Postby Malacar » Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:28 am

After trying Tia tonight, I have a couple pieces of feedback for the zone...

First and foremost - length. This takes WAY too long. A lot of us have played for years, and simply don't have the time to devote 12+ hours to doing a run. It's just not fun to slaughter ourselves repeatedly for hours. It wears thin.

Some of the fights are pretty fun - the roaming devil packs are really fun imo. The door fights (especially with those 3 cheesy mage/clerics), are rather ridiculous (no offense intended) imo. It's a repeato-suicide mission to pass it, and very time consuming.

I get that the gear is great, and there's a bunch... But this really doesn't warrant half a day of my life for it. Take some gear out or tone it down. Either way, make it shorter, please!

Thanks!
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:13 am

I changed the load of the Amnizus for next time, and fixed the tracking error.

Tiamat takes a long time. I'm sorry, but it is not intended to be a normal zone...if you want short and fast fun there are dozens of zones like that one the MUD.
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Postby Malacar » Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:18 am

*Edit*

Actually, let me clarify...

I play to have fun. If tiamat were.. 9-11 hours, say.. and less frustrating than a constant spankfest.. I'd probably enjoy it.

Like I said, though - to each their own. :)
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Postby Sarell » Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:24 am

Nice job jumping on the Amnizus Shev keen to see where they are. On the first trip we wondered if any of the patrols would have serious casters. I think planting them at the big fight was a bit horrible, just the entry the way all mobs hit the first tnk made that a bit scary. Combined with the other procs already in that room it was a very hard fight to begin with. It's a hard zone to tinker with I guess because it was so damn good right off the bat! (to begin with)

I was keen to see what Tia herself had in store this run, shame we didn't make it. Next time gadget dragon, next time...

It is long, but it has incredible rewards even for the length and difficulty. We seriously need more players if people want to make it a regular event, currently we will be all level 10 and exhausted shortly into the new year :) (except me who is going away fo a few weeks to lie in the sun on the beach / rainforest creek and do that beachy sort of stuff TOUCH)
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Postby Malacar » Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:27 am

Yeah.. Just to piggy back on Sarell..

I was offering input (someone asked us to do so). I recognize the time and effort you guys put into this stuff, so hopefully my comments aren't interpreted as personal shots - they aren't intended as such.
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:29 am

Well it doesnt neccessarily have to be constant dying either...

I think what this last run helped demonstrate is the difference between a trip planned for and scheduled long in advance as opposed to one done on short notice. That, imho, was more the cause of the increased difficulty this time than the very small amount of changes. No offense to anyone involved, of course, I am sure you all did your best, and will fare better next time.

I could be wrong, and feel free to correct me if my analysis is incorrect.

And just for the record...the goal of Tiamat is entertainment. I am not interested in racking up frag counts or the like, we just want you to have a good time. When you see new changes in that zone, its because we wanted to spice something up and make it more engaging and fun, not becaue we want Tia to be impossible, or see you die alot or any such nonsense. Of course, sometimes our changes might backfire, but you can be assured that we will address it promptly if neccessary.
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Postby Glorishan » Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:56 am

Shev - you're spot on when it comes to our group's potential. This was definitely the weakest group we've brought thus far. However, the general feeling at tia is the fights that require endless runs of 2-3 rounds are the boring parts, and the fights where everyone gets to enter and the fight could go either way, but it's a long fight, are the fun ones. Adding the mage/cleric mobs to the patrol fights wasn't too bad, and we coped. But adding it to the Dagos fight was way too much. If you're dead set on having them in that room, then need to eliminate some of the barbazus. Between the procs and the sandstorms, it's just too much.

The other thing to think about regarding the Dagos room is the number of tanks it requires. As it stands, 29 mobs. You really need probably 6 tanks to handle that kind of workload. Which would be fine if it weren't for the design of the rest of the zone. The rest of the zone is designed to be done in runs, which means you need very few tanks. The rest of the zone requires probably 4 tanks at the very most, and that's mostly just for the 5 ancients fight. For almost all other fights involving the dragons you need 2-3 tanks. At any rate I've been up for the better part of 48 hours so I'm beginning to ramble. Downgrade monks.
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:58 am

Although I would love to try tia, I could actually go if it were about 6 hours. I wonder if with planning with the staff, there could be a 50/50 version. Leader votes on whether or not to do a full run or a semi-loaded run. So half the mobs, one third or one fourth the loot basically. At least someone like me could go then :) I sure the hell would love to as it is. 12 hours is just out of the question for me unfortunately.
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Postby Glorishan » Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:17 am

Thil - not gonna happen otherwise we'd just form smaller groups, do tia more often, and acrue more gear.
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:17 am

Glori, I already said I adjusted the loads of the amnizus...heh.
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Postby muxxissinix » Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:25 pm

The changes are always good, personally I think most of tiamat fights can become boring after a while, The first grid had lots of fights where you heard "all target 1.xxx or assist yyy rogue" if the leader is good for keep all the ppl doing his job and not talking over ooc or afk then grid is kinda easy for a 30 man group, having mages in the first grid now is more fun and more challenging.

Once you enter to Spiral you have some wandering young dragons easy to clear if you are patient, also you can clear baby dragons and elders in each of the 5 lairs, then you have 5 fights all the same with exception of procs, why all 5 lairs have all the same numbers of mobs and exact number of rooms 10 baby dragon 2 elder 2 ancient 1 great wyrn x5, not very original.

The last 2 fights are really good and fun, I really like the idea of the 5 heads breathing at same time, I don't understand the players who can't deal with deaths when they zone or want more regular fights when they can control all the things going on and make Tiamat a run smooth when you play for 10 hours(I recognize some leaders are really good and can find a way) loot tiamat vault and then go sleep.

Do you all want make Tiamat a weekly event ?

Let me see : Like 10 uber items each time and maybe 50-100 different players going to Tiamat in the next 12 months each weekend. Can someone see how players will be equipped in a year?
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Postby Malia » Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:31 pm

not gonna comment why we failed or anything of the sort. Just gonna give some feedback on what i liked and didnt like about the zone and or fights in general.

I really like the patrol fights, they are long, you know you got another patrol about to enter and its higher spank potential but those fights are an utter rush. Fights at the gates with lots of barbazu and bleed procs with tanks rescuing other tanks cuz they bleeding to bad, i mean you need top notch tanks to be doing that many and the fights are fun as hell. I like any fight that can go either way but you gotta stay in more then .00001 round. I want everyone to be able to go in and spellup in combat, and try to keep spells up and heals going and gheal when hurt people outnumber the clerics. As it stands after tonights run bout 90% of tiamat is spellup outside of fights, send in damage for .00001 run, and flee like girls. Rinse and Repeat 100x Gets old more chance of afk cuz people are bored.

Look at all the good zones in the game that people really liked. Clouds, cuz on entry it could get real bad real fast, but those were some of the best fights, as yer scaler died, you shout out, shaman on stones! i mean you were all doin yer best to hang in there and the fights were epic. Scorps king fight was always good before the tracking and runing followers out of moves tactic. You would go in and try to 1 run it , and it was a totaly awesome fight. Walking jot grid used to be fun cuz you might get into trouble and people had to be on their toes, tag and lure.

Guess im just thinking about what I as a player liked about certain fights and what i dont like about certain fights and id rather do long epic fights vs in/out mindless suicide runs. Thats just my opinion though.

Hope that helps =)
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Postby kiryan » Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:50 pm

tiamat i think is fine as is. please do not drastically change it. Its a good mix, its repetitive in some places but overall challenging even if it is largely a deathfest.

take all these suggestiosn about how to make tiamat "better" and make a new zone. not every zone has to be the same, tiamat doesn't have to be the only epic zone or the "best" of the epic zones.

----

muxx, eq escalation is good. I'll start a thread on why.
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Postby Corth » Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:56 am

Hrmm..

I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand, I do not like the idea of seeing Tiamat become a weekly event. In the past, we would put a lot of preparation into each run. For instance, we would collect group full heal pendants, gheal staves, etc. Basically, you needed those items to kill tia. On the other hand, I do not like zones where you have 30 people charging a brick wall time and time again until the wall (gatehouse) finally crumbles after several hours.

Taking the mages out of that gatehouse fight is a good idea. A fight can be difficult and cause spanks, but still fun. That fight just isn't fun. Probably the most boring few hours I have spent on this game.

I have a feeling that making Tia herself a lot more difficult, rather than the stuff leading to her, is the way to go. What I would do is make it so that she cannot be done in runs. Give her a full hitpoint proc if nobody is in the room or something like that. Make people kill her in one fell swoop in all her glory. That way people will need to come prepared with potions and staves etc in order to smite her. It won't be done every week that way. I'd like to see people fight valiantly all the way to her (fun fights, not tossing people at a brick wall), and then have a 50/50 shot of actually killing tia.

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Postby Glorishan » Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:11 am

Let me preface this with a simple statement...I think the Tiamat zone as it is right now is a lot closer to perfection than it ever used to be. It used to be a simple design and we had it down to sub 8 hours. Now the zone is epic, but I think it needs some adjustments. Some people have already given some good suggestions, and I just wanna throw in my support for what Corth said about having to prepare for Tia. First off, it really prevents it from becoming an every weekend event (which ultimately I think hurts the zone because it causes this idea that it needs an upgrade each time it's completed).

Second, you have more options in terms of difficulty. You can leave the majority of the zone as is (I think 1 mage with Dagos would be a good thing, maybe a couple fewer Barbazu with the mage, but I think we need to see how the current number would be handled with 1 mage), and make Tia extremely difficult, so much so that she requires things like gheal staffs, fheal pendants, etc... By doing this, you make it so people will have to spend ample time preparing for the zone by making sure they collect enough prep items. Think back to some of the failed runs of yesteryear. Typically it wasn't cause Tia was too tough or our group wasn't good enough. It was almost always because we hadn't prepared enough beforehand and we ran out of healing items. Those fights were epic, and it didn't have to be done in runs (which seems to be the most popular complaint).

To summarize, keep the upgrades to the patrols (those fights are great, mage additions made them more difficult, chance to partially-spank), toy with the mob levels in Dagos. Possibly adjust mob levels in the spiral so that they don't all need to be done in runs, but this isn't as huge of a deal. 5 ancients fight is nuts, has to be done in runs, but I'm not opposed to that. It would make sense that the 5 biggest dragons would all be protecting Tiamat, and that they'd be tough you have to throw bodies at them. As each ancient dies, it becomes exponentially easier. Make the tia fight so it doesn't have to be done in runs, but requires a great deal of preparation prio to even considering entering the zone.

Downgrade monks.
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Postby Tasan » Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:45 am

You could go a step further with this and make things like pendants/staves require items from the lesser done zones etc. It would keep people moving throughout the world and possibly give more of a chance for leaders to take people zoning who wouldn't normally go and be able to learn things from those lesser done zones.

I really like having to prepare for the zone rather than the "throw bodies at it until it dies" approach. If the zone is changed to allow this, I'd also say bring the time required down a bit, perhaps to around 8-10 instead of ~12.

Anyhow, appreciate the way the "problem" was handled too. Very professional.

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Postby Glorishan » Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:24 am

I'm personally ok with the 12 hour time it currently takes, though I certainly understand the logic. More time spent preparing warrants less time in zone. 8/12, either is fine IMO.
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Referring to the guild on 8/28/06: Oghma responds to your petition with 'your leadership team averages 280 days MIA :('

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