Skill notching

[Dalar]

Please up the rates to go faster as you level OR faster in general. I know the immortals love time sinks, but really, get rid of some so people can enjoy the game.

[Thilindel]

Wewt! Now that's definitely something I'd like to see happen too!

[Sarell]

I wouldn't. Most skills work pretty well as they are, and a couple of people have their skills at top notches who have been around for a long time. I think epic characters should be a bit more skillful than those with only a few day ptime. If you have only a couple day ptime you are still almost as good as an epic character anyhow as is.

[Thilindel]

What stinks is max skills just means someone knows how to spam give ration horse, steal ration horse or just hide hide hide hide hide..etc.

I really believe it's a damper in the fun department. :(

[Tasan]

Maybe for rogues... warriors actually have some serious time on their hands to get skills maxed :p

[Thilindel]

amen to that! wasn't it gura said it was 8 hours or so to get final notch of rescue? OUCH!

[Yasden]

I doubt that.

Try 7 playing days (yes, 168 hours) to get last bandage notch.

or...

1800 ropes to go from 41 to 65 (max) unbind. Last notch taking 300 ropes, btw.

or...

14 hours to get the last disarm notch.

:P

[Thilindel]

That just struck skill's timesink like a piledriver! Booo Timesinks! :(

[Ashiwi]

I spent three solid weeks trying to get my last disarmtraps notch and never did get it. I know another rogue who got it in a matter of hours. Needless to say, I gave up, because I got truly sick and tired of it.

I'm still not for making skills notches easier.

[Tasan]

If they aren't going to work correctly then there is no point in getting maxxed skills anyhow. Have failed over 10 rescues w/ it maxed today, and I know I haven't rescued 1000x.

[kiryan]

three worst of the most useful skills to notch.

mounted combat, its quintessential considering you need 75 to wield ambran while tanking and it decides whether or not you can ride through doors/indoors. Took me like 40 hours of sitting/not wielding using layhand and heals to heal. Why would a paladin EVER 1h? 2h defines anti/paladin.

summon totem, ok usable 3x per 168 minutes. after 5 years i bet no one has maxxed it, id be surprised if anyone is at 90+ (depending on where it notches). After 2 years of heavy heavy soloing, i think i managed to get mine to 70ish.

Assassinate, 1 per 24 minutes, ive easily spent 160 hours to go from 55 to 77. i just sit in a room 12-16 hours a day and a beep goes off everytime i can assassinate. 105 int/110 wisdom.

----

What exactly is the point of all of this? If you want people to need to spend more time on their characters, why not just make exp harder? How does being able to / not being able to practice skills translate into a bonus for people who prime a certain class?

If your going to let us "practice" skills by performing them over and over and over, why not let us buy them up instead so we could be out "earning" plat instead of sitting afk botting skills? How does people botting skills help the mud? Buying skills would become a plat sink (make it a big one) and maybe people would actually do money runs...

In a lot of muds ive seen, your skills max out fast putting more emphasis on making that next level. Also, why is it hard to max out a skill at every level? SHouldnt the difficulty to obtain a certain skill point be based on its level vs how close you are to capping it for your level? for example, if your level 11 and your skill tops out at 22, its hard to go from 21 to 22, perhaps just as hard to go from 98 to 99 at level 50. That makes no sense to me.

[Dalar]

Can we get a "we don't care it's been like this forever" god response so I don't have to think about this until next year when I'm bored enough to give this MUD another shot.

[Shevarash]

Changes are afoot.

[Dalar]

Stop messing w/ me!

[Yarash]

Skills already notch fast enough. It's just the top-end notches that are harder to get, as they should be.

On the mud I came from players would pay a trivial fee to the guildmaster, use up a couple "practice sessions", and instantly get their skills raised to as high as they could be. When I started playing toril, skills started to have value. I felt like I earned the skills that I had. Let's not make this one of those pansy games where everything is given to you without any effort.

- Mike

[kiryan]

50-60, 50 p
61-70, 100 p
71,80, 150 p
81-90, 200 p
91-99, 500 p

voila, plat has value and instead of sitting afk at skeletons for 40 hours, you can be doing money runs or selling eq instead.

[Thilindel]

Yarash sojourn used to be like that pretty much a long time ago :P Then they had a system whereupon your wisdom dictated how many sessions you'd gain per level. I like D&D's method period. An x' lvl rogue is just that. They put their points wherever they want. All classes should be allowed to hone however they wish. As a druid, I don't really care to max out spellcast divination anyway! :P

By default, casters notch what's needed. Melee classes get screwed. Spamming hide/sneak isn't part of a 'routine' life for a rogue. Sure, they would hide some each day, but you wouldn't find a rogue just doing it for the hell of it.

[muxxissinix]

If you plan on makes notch skills easiest then you should go back to lost maxed skills when you lost level.


50-60, 500 p
61-70, 1000 p
71,80, 1500 p
81-90, 2000 p
91-99, 5000 p

Not all the skills have the same value for each class.

I want to practice dodge with my mages.

[Yasden]

Wear -100 ac and wield a weapon and go sit in skellies, Muxx. :P

Really though, there aren't a lot of skills you can max (at least efficiently) in skeletons, and the ones you can make only perfect sense TO practice them there. I'm referring to switch opponents and hitall primarily.

I maxed out all of my weapon skills, shieldpunch, and kick by soloing DS ferns. Yeah, it was before they were given fronds to wield, but the point is you need a higher level mob that you can take on fairly easily so that the combat has a longer duration.

Want to practice blindfighting? Remove your light (or find a good spot in the day for ultras) and do battle. DK vault did wonders for maxing out my blindfighting inadvertently.

Swimming? Hit the river between DK and the GH barge, or head down to SG.

Bandage? Find a room with a lot of easy mobs that repop. Remove your gear, and get them to incap (NOT MORTALLY WOUNDED), and glance it. You can effectively keep a bandage pattern of 10-12 mobs at a time going without having them croak on you. I set up a tick timer to bandage 1-15.slave every 120 seconds in DK (NW slave pen). Just don't bot it, you'd hate to lose the notches on this one. :)

Unbind? Here's a neat little trick. Have your friend who's going to be tying you up follow you to the judge. Try to turn him in (assuming he/she/it's not already wanted). You'll both get thrown in jail. Escape, and in 3 minutes you'll be effectively wanted. Stockpile on ropes, and have fun. There is one key trick to this though. Make sure the person who is tying you up is at least the same level as you, and is the same race or a stronger one, with a higher STR skill. That will pretty much ensure a 100% tie-up success rate for them. Don't be surprised if the imms get frustrated at you for practicing this one, though. :P

The point is, unless it's a spellcast_*** skill that you have no spells for, you *can* max out any skill, you just have to find the right way and method to do it effectively. In a fantasy setting, any "hero" or "villain" is expertly trained in everything they do. That's what makes them the antagonists/protagonists. It should be somewhat of a time sink, I just don't like the time consumption on some certain skills, especially when those skills aren't even primary skills.

I really do feel sorry for the rogues working on assassinate, however. :)

-Deathmagnet

[Yarash]

Spamming hide/sneak isn't part of a 'routine' life for a rogue. Sure, they would hide some each day, but you wouldn't find a rogue just doing it for the hell of it.

A rogue wouldn't do it just for the hell of it, it would be for practice. IRL, snipers in the military practice hiding. They are rated on if they can be seen or not. Why wouldn't a rogue practice the skills he uses? In the computer game, Baldur's Gate (1 or 2), there is a rogue guild with one room filled with doors that the rogues practice pick lock on.

- Mike

[Thilindel]

Yeah, I love that room! But for hide/sneak, there's no real way to practice because you only learn from failing really - as in you failed cuz a mob is hitting you. I guess you could learn from succeeding really easily as well, like learning a trick. But how many hide 'n sneakbots have been busted on sojourn/toril? It's not fun in any fashion to sit there on another screen or browser while waiting to be asked if you're botting.

[Malia]

as a rogue that has spent endless hours and weeks and months and essentialy years practicing skills.

PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THEM OR THE RATE AT WHICH THEY ARE GAINED.

That being said, whats the point of buying yer skills, there is NO SKILL in that, skills are one of the last thing that seperate players. Equipment sure doesnt anymore since most noobs are wearing high end eq now a days. Skills are the last thing that real power gamers can do to excell above the average player.

at the moment on my rogue i have all but 6 skills capped. (and there is no way to my knowledge to work shadow) I worked really hard for that and spent alot of time to that end to make my rogue the best that it could be. To have someone come and just buy notches that i spent so much time doing would really be sad.

Dont feel sorry for rogues and assassinate. Look how excited we get after getting a notch. i think i spent a year on my last notch and was totaly stoked for a month or more after i got it. What big deal woulda been made if every rogue out there has maxed assassinate? yeah.. maxed out assassinate, what to work on next. (lame)

[Dalar]

There is no skill in forced progression through time either. How does finding a street cleaner and assassinating it 10x a day over the course of 2 months make you a master at assassinating demons?

[teflor the ranger]

There is no skill in forced progression through time either. How does finding a street cleaner and assassinating it 10x a day over the course of 2 months make you a master at assassinating demons?

Demonic Street Cleaners

[Thilindel]

as a rogue that has spent endless hours and weeks and months and essentialy years practicing skills.

PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THEM OR THE RATE AT WHICH THEY ARE GAINED.

But that's like an attorney who's excited he just bought a new benz at 100k, then the next week he's upset cuz it went on sale :P

[Ashiwi]

It makes sense, though, Thil. Players with maxed skills have worked their butts off in the game to get them maxed. They've invested the time and dedication to do it. As it is now, having maxed skills is something to be proud of. You have to make an effort at so few other things in the game, why dumb this down, too?

[Ambar]

So here we go with a plevel sort of idea ..

Would you rather take the l50 rogue who worked at his skills to a zone than the l50 noob rogue who bought his skills....

[hagah]

Balancing this game between being newbie friendly and an adequate pissing ground for oldschool gamers seems to be the real tug I keep seeing. Both make the game more enjoyable in some ways.. I think Kiryan has the right idea with his escalation thread, but basically I think that skill practice is a bore so is exp and It's too much of a "privilege" to zone I think.. Why can't anyone log on here and explore most of this place happily enjoying alll the long hours put into zones and whatever instead of being rushed to exp to level 50 then basically hazed into "appropriately" playing whatever class you chose?

This game really is an incredible mesh of people I would have loved to have a few of my RL friends continuing playing here but most of them quit after complaining about it taking up too much of their time to invest just to have the chance at fighting a dragon or discovering/playing a zone. It should be like choosing a level sortof right? Why are there no maps to zones for your level? even if they were basic that would make it even more exciting to find things NOT on these god made maps..FUN is all i'm sayin pls.. happy new years

hagah

[Maedor]

an assass notch would be worth 50,000+ plat to me. Skills are a pain to notch, but if you really want to excel, put in your time. Any char is useable with mid 70 skills, and those take very little time to acquire. If someone goes the extra mile, and goes for white skills, they deserve an edge.

Pava has spent years developing his character. How can anyone really justify me rolling a new rogue..hitting 50 in a week, and being every bit as capable as a character that he's poured countless hours into.

That being said, notching mounted combat was horrible:P But instead of making it easier to notch, I think Paliwanks should be able to 2h mount at lower skills...

The staff hand us level 50 on a silver platter...at least let the people that put more effort in have some advantage.

The funny thing is, this game (or all games) is nothing more than a huge timesink. How many hours have you all spent here getting snazzy ansi that really means nothing in the great scheme of life? The mud doesn't pay your rent, or put food on the table, or make your sex life exist. It doesn't get you you off welfare, prepare you for a comfortable retirement, or improve the relationship with your spouse. I enjoy wasting time here as much as anyone...but it really is quite funny how we try to say that one form of wasted time is any better than another form of wasted time :) How is spending 14hrs doing tia any better than spending 14 hours getting your last bandage notch?

Though-if you set everyone instantly to level 50, with max skills, and loaded all the eq they wanted, this place would rock. Just think-we would have no xp timesinks, no skill timesinks, no zone timesinks...we could all get bored in a week and quit. just imagine how much we'd get accomplished in rl..omg :-)

[selerial]

It makes sense, though, Thil. Players with maxed skills have worked their butts off in the game to get them maxed. They've invested the time and dedication to do it. As it is now, having maxed skills is something to be proud of. You have to make an effort at so few other things in the game, why dumb this down, too?

The only problem that I personally have with this theory is that how can you be proud of having, say, 99 spellcast mastery and 90 specialization mastery and still have a 5% stutter rate? Or 99 mastery in rescue or 1h slash and still fail/fumble enough to comment on it?

Skill notching is basically "whatever" to me, but I'd like to see 99 skill mean something (put the "master" in skill mastery? fail either 1% of the time or even like .5% maybe?)

[rylan]

I heard something from a god way back in Sojourn1 that the effectiveness of some skills was based on play time. If there is still some kind of modifier that took into account a combination of ptime, prestige, and experience along with the skill level, then I wouldn't have a problem with making it easier to notch. The people who actually play the game more and do stuff would still be better at the skill than those who only trigger practiced all day due to the hidden modifier.

Having a modifier based on ptime/prestige/xp would prevent those who have a huge ptime (from just idling in WD all day) from geting the benefit of the modifier.

[Ashiwi]

If ptime is a factor, then my calculator is broke.

[Thilindel]

the problem with skills meaning something is hard to explain. So I'll use this example: Take Ashiwi, Pava, etc..well known rogues. You as players have skill. Spamming hide, sneak over and over, give ration horse, steal ration horse, etc isn't skill. By design, these skills listed, and many more you can think of as you write pop in your head. They're not like spellcast x' that just notches as you play your caster. Casters raise as they play their class. Rogues, warriors, etc have to spam crap to notch. Spellcast teleportation is the only one on the top of my head that is annoying too. Spamming blink or teleport in wd for 2 hours isn't fun either.

[Yarash]

Any char is useable with mid 70 skills, and those take very little time to acquire. If someone goes the extra mile, and goes for white skills, they deserve an edge.

Exactly. This isn't an argument about it being too hard to get usable skills; you can get usable skills with little to no effort. It's an argument about the effort required to be the best you can be.

I strongly disagree with anyone who argues that it should be easy to be the best. No quality players are going to play a game where you don't earn what you get. Some aspects can slide, but there have to be other aspects that are earned, otherwise it's all meaningless.

I'm going to ask you, the reader, to take a moment and think of something you are proud of. Was it something you earned and worked hard for?

- Mike

[Lahgen]

I'm all for difficulty and working hard for what you get.

That said, it seems that the people who are more firmly of this view state it as though it were a foregone conclusion.

So for those like me who don't see it as a foregone conclusion, tell me...how is it that "easy to get" *has* to equate with "didn't earn it?"

And Yarash...I'm proud of the fact that, after over two whole years of playing this game, I'm finally starting to get a feel for things, and starting to be more confident, and hopefully start to play better.

[teflor the ranger]

Skill progression appears fine to me at the moment. I average exactly 10 hours ptime per week, which I imagine to be a fair and sustainable level of play for the average user.

Over the past two years I've managed to punch out a large number of white skills in mulitple characters and have been generally satisfied with the amount of effort required to produce those skill levels.

Furthermore, it appears to me that the wisdom stat effects how quickly skills notch.

WISDOM

Wisdom is many things, but primarily it is a measure of 'sense', in the 'common sense' or 'horse sense' meaning. Which is to say, it is a measure of planning ability and learning from experience. It is the primary attribute of all clerical types, and helps all class' ability to learn.

See also: "RACIAL STATS", "CLASS STATS"

Higher wisdom, I believe will help you gain those skill notches faster. Low wisdom stats (often a dump stat in many classes) may be the reason why many of you are feeling the most frustration over skill practice.

[Yarash]

So for those like me who don't see it as a foregone conclusion, tell me...how is it that "easy to get" *has* to equate with "didn't earn it?"

Example 1:
In one game, a player pays a small amount of money they gathered off mobs in 5 minutes. The player then uses that money at their guild to max their skills.

In another game, a person practices his skills at a guild in much the same way, and improves the skills very slightly. Then he notches them up significantly over a couple days/week, and finally maxes them over a period of months.

The first person did not cheat in any way. Some effort was made in the five minutes gathering up the coins, so you could argue the skills were earned. So another way of phrasing the point is, who is going to place more value on their achievement?

Example 2:
During Christmas Chaos, a player is given a portable hole full of multiple sets of top-end equipment. After Christmas Chaos, the equipment is taken away.

At another point in time, a player who spent years aquiring good equipment dies and is unable to cr. The game is reset and the player cannot get a reimbursement.

Who is going to feel more of a loss? Why?

A key element of role playing games imo is gradually advancing your character. The harder a person works to achieve a goal, the more value that achievement should have for the individual.

- Mike

[Lahgen]

Well, yes, for the individual.

But to say that someone "hasn't earned it" implies that it is a judgement that a person can make about another person, as evidenced by all the people saying that they want to keep skill notches hard so they can have something over talented newbies. That is what I object to.

[Dalar]

So here we go with a plevel sort of idea ..

Would you rather take the l50 rogue who worked at his skills to a zone than the l50 noob rogue who bought his skills....

How do skills matter? What's the difference between disarm trap (57) and disarm trap (90)? A ton of hours. That's it. There is _no_ skill in this. Neither does sneak/hide/assassinating.

[Pril]

So here we go with a plevel sort of idea ..

Would you rather take the l50 rogue who worked at his skills to a zone than the l50 noob rogue who bought his skills....

How do skills matter? What's the difference between disarm trap (57) and disarm trap (90)? A ton of hours. That's it. There is _no_ skill in this. Neither does sneak/hide/assassinating.

By that reasononing how do ANY skills matter at all? How does bash matter? If no skills matter then why do people prefer taking a rogue who can sneak/hide to a zone over one that can't?

[Dalar]

Having bash at 90+ doesn't mean you're a good basher. In-game skills do not reflect player skills.

[Thilindel]

You shouldn't be shacked to the keyboard spamming hide/sneak blah blah just to be called skilled. Casters gain in their every day lives - casting. melee types don't. A rogue has nothing to gain but a skill notch by sitting in a room and spamming hide. So in other words, casters notch by doing their jobs and gaining xp to boot. Poor rogue/warriors need puppets.

[Malia]

by this reasoning we should all log on be 50 and have maxed skills and all have the same eq. Welcome to a boring mud.

A players skill does reflect in game as you pointed out a rogue with 57 disarm and a rogue with 95 disarm are diffrent and if you go to say swamps id rather have a rogue with 95 disarm so we dont sit there all night disarming traps.

A rogue that has 70 sneak/hide is not as desireable as a rogue thas has it capped at max. why? because a rogue took the time to practice the skill to become better at it. In the process they probably know how sneak and hide work better also so not only do skill reflect it but knowledge of the skill works better too.

if we could just buy our skill or poof be maxed skills, where is the pride if having maxed skills, or where is the time we get to learn the skill and how best to apply it.

I remeber a while back when Doom first came out, loved the game played it for hours trying to get farther and farther, and it was great. Then I heard of the cheat codes that could give you god mode and could load in whatever you wanted. I was like SWEEEEEEEET! so i got that and beat the game in about 40 min, played around with all weapons for maybe another hour then got bored, and quit playing it and moved on to another game. I dont play it today.

I have played this game for over 12yrs, the challenge and the pride we can take in our characters that we built keeps me comming back again and again. Dont take that away please.

Leave skill notches the way they are.

[Dalar]

So in order to get the max skill, you have to do the same task over and over for about 5 hours a notch near the end. What's the point in that?

[Thilindel]

so all gaining levels does is raise the cap of your skills. One would rather xp to gain levels, only to spam steal ration (blinded) mob, rinse/repeat? That isn't skill - it's patience. I, for one, get burnt out of spamming skills. It's fully the opposite of said godmode. If your skills don't go up from xp'g and raising levels, then what's the point? Example: A warrior gains a level. All he gains is higher ceiling for his skills and x hps. big deal :( A cleric on the other hand relatively makes good gains AS he xp's because he's using his skill, being healing, and it's pretty close to maxed per level. Rogues/warriors are very screwed over as it sits. So what if someone's spammed hide/sneak/hitall/bandage... that is NOT skill. You should defaultly gain as you xp and level.

[Maedor]

I agree with Ross..we should all be set to max skills and level 50 upon creation.

No wasted xp time. No wasted skill time. Everyone is equal in every way.

I agree that skills are boring to notch...but there has to be some difference between a long term char and the new char. maybe after x zones, you get a skill point to use..or prestige can be spent for skill notches. I'm not saying the current way is the best, but it'd be pretty sad to hand everyone max skills on a silver platter.

I, for one, tend to enjoy what I earned, what i put effort into and things that not everyone has the time/patience/ability to do.

[Lahgen]

There would be difference. In how you use those skills. Merely having them doesn't make you a good player. So why not let them have it? They'd still have to work hard in order to become leet, they just wouldn't have to put in mind numbing hours of skill practice.

[Thilindel]

I'm not saying to just max a player's stats on creation, just per level. As I said in the other post, it's the ppl behind the screen that make ashiwi, pava, and others so damned amazing to watch. The skill is at the keyboard. You learn by doing. XP, etc is doing. Skills should rise automatically with levels.

Best example far and wide is necro's pet skill points. They rise per level. Why shouldn't all other classes' skills?

[Yarash]

Point 1: Giving notches away takes even less "skill" than the current practice method. Additionally, you cannot max all of your skills through "spamming".

Point 2: The point of the game is to have fun. Skill practice is optional.

Point 3: As skill ceilings rise, skills notch easier.

Point 4: All classes have skills that are used more often than others. Some skills are notched quickly through normal gameplay, some aren't.

- Mike

[Thilindel]

they only seem to raise at a rate that is relative to the cap. If lvl 50 and have a low skill, it'll raise quickly for a little bit, but once it's remotely close to max, it's trickle. Was zoning with touk awhile back and saw rescue fail 2x back to back at 99. :( Skills aren't optional in a sense that if your sneak/hide is bad, no leader wants to cr you if you scout