Neutral necromancers/liches
Neutral necromancers/liches
Ok, so I dump tons of hours and money becoming neutral. Align stands at 55, and I'm raising ghasts left and right, as I should. After today's reboot, it gives some 'You don't even _consider_ such an evil act, meddling with undead!' blah blah when I'm trying to raise. Now, I'm (being polite) EXTREMELY upset that 1) there's no warning in any file that says non-evil necro/lich lose ability to raise pets. 2) Ignored over pitition is this: DS unicorn, amongst other GOOD mobs raise undead. 3) Life-drain helpfile. doesn't list the -6 align you receive each time you cast it, whereas ENERGY DRAIN does. So, if they're going to point out that casting energy drain is 'evil' (So this would lead at least me to think 'Hey, you can be neutral or why the redundancy in this helpfile') So... WHERE THE WORLD is the helpfile anywhere that spending 40k and dumping pretty much 24 rl hours to get neutral align isn't a complete and utter waste of time? :(
There are several neutral and good aligned lich race/well knowns in D&D...
There are several neutral and good aligned lich race/well knowns in D&D...
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1) Help necromancer summarizes the view of necromancy very well.
2) You were not ignored over petition. You may not have liked the answers you received, but you were party to a conversation with Oghma. Furthermore, the unicorn you are referencing is not of good alignment. It is neutral, and neutral mobs are permitted to animate.
3) We cannot, will not put every detrimental effect possible into a helpfile. Some things are left for the players to discover.
I'm sorry that you took the time to alter your alignment. You'll note in the news that several minor tweaks and bugfixes were effected; the code on necromancy was one of those fixes. There was a hiccup in the logic for the check, and I corrected it.
2) You were not ignored over petition. You may not have liked the answers you received, but you were party to a conversation with Oghma. Furthermore, the unicorn you are referencing is not of good alignment. It is neutral, and neutral mobs are permitted to animate.
3) We cannot, will not put every detrimental effect possible into a helpfile. Some things are left for the players to discover.
I'm sorry that you took the time to alter your alignment. You'll note in the news that several minor tweaks and bugfixes were effected; the code on necromancy was one of those fixes. There was a hiccup in the logic for the check, and I corrected it.
Eilistraee
so neutral mobs get to animate, yet players don't? I said I was ignored because I know that unicorn animates and both it and I are neutral. It just FULLY strikes me odd that it seems ok for me to waste my time and all that money and I get an 'oh well.' Something as ambiguous as 'tweaks etc.' ...who else would be willing to lose their pets, the core of the class, and time, money, trust in the mud when all the effort is 'newfound territory' as I was told.
It's QUITE clear what happens in the helpfiles for rangers/paladins to misbehave. But odds are they won't have spent 20+ hours and around 40k discovering this.
It's QUITE clear what happens in the helpfiles for rangers/paladins to misbehave. But odds are they won't have spent 20+ hours and around 40k discovering this.
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I can see mobs doing crap players can't like casting areas in 1ways, casting with a shopkeeper that says No Magic, soandso but what balance problem is it with neutral mobs raising pets and players can't? I'm pretty disgusted that gods saw me going neutral and said nothing whatsoever. . Yes, I wish to become neutral and give up 95% of my power ..I can see -350 thru -1 raising dead, but did I just get get Punked hard or what?
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I am not privy to everything that Thilindel, or any other player, is doing. I do not watch for ways that I can inconvenience players and take actions to do so.
Him changing his alignment is not a bug. The bug was the ability to animate with the alignment changed, and it has been corrected. Again, I'm sorry it resulted in the loss of time and platinum for you Thilindel.
As for losing your trust in the mud, well I'm sorry for that too. My role is to correct the flaws in the code as I find them, and often enough that causes a player some inconvenience, in greater or lesser extent. This is the price of progress, and I'm sorry if the cost isn't to your liking.
Him changing his alignment is not a bug. The bug was the ability to animate with the alignment changed, and it has been corrected. Again, I'm sorry it resulted in the loss of time and platinum for you Thilindel.
As for losing your trust in the mud, well I'm sorry for that too. My role is to correct the flaws in the code as I find them, and often enough that causes a player some inconvenience, in greater or lesser extent. This is the price of progress, and I'm sorry if the cost isn't to your liking.
Eilistraee
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Seemed obvious to assume that it being changed the boot after his necro achieved neutral meant the change was caused by noticing his neutral necro raising undead. It is of course your job to fix these oversights, I merely assumed you neglected to tell him that his ability to raise undead while neutral was a bug, not out of malice but simply as an oversight.
Lil
Lil
I simply don't understand. What balance issue is it for neutral leaning towards evil to raise undead? You just said mobs can :( There is no balance issue. I fully think it fair that if it were a bug that allowed me to raise while neutral, then I _at least_ should be reimbursed. As I already said there helpfiles for paladin and ranger that clearly point out what happens changing alignment.
I'm not trying to make this seem like I'm after 'Eilistraee'. I didn't know who did what. What I am saying is there's no helpfile at all. Everybody knows how murderous it is to become neutral from evil. Given every god sees player gives on the Wiz channel, let alone I know oghma and shar were on..I'm just so damned mad. What possible balance problem is there with neutral raising players? :(
I checked on the AD&D sites..helm of opposite align doesn't hinder raising dead, thus good align is allowed. Also there were NUMEROUS campaigns where good and neutral necros AND liches would use their power for good, especially concentrating on the dead of the wrongly executed, etc.
I'm not trying to make this seem like I'm after 'Eilistraee'. I didn't know who did what. What I am saying is there's no helpfile at all. Everybody knows how murderous it is to become neutral from evil. Given every god sees player gives on the Wiz channel, let alone I know oghma and shar were on..I'm just so damned mad. What possible balance problem is there with neutral raising players? :(
I checked on the AD&D sites..helm of opposite align doesn't hinder raising dead, thus good align is allowed. Also there were NUMEROUS campaigns where good and neutral necros AND liches would use their power for good, especially concentrating on the dead of the wrongly executed, etc.
Well definately for RP purposes I could see a necro/lich going neutral. Just because you gotta be freakin nuts (read chaotic evil) to undergo the process of becoming a lich, Even the most nutty of nutjobs could have a change of heart and try to make up for their evil ways.
Kallinar goes MOO
Confucious say: He who walk around with hand in pocket feel kockie all day.
Confucious say: He who walk around with hand in pocket feel kockie all day.
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I almost went down this road. Back when it was still Miax mud I had petitioned asking if there would be any side effects to my lich going Neutral or Good. I was told no, just that some of my class specific spells probably wouldn't work, otherwise it'd be fine.
You have my condolences on the wasted time, and money but did you ask anyone first before trying it? Just curious.
You have my condolences on the wasted time, and money but did you ask anyone first before trying it? Just curious.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Yeah, I asked but it was uncharted territory. The gaping problem is this: Helpfiles. How can something so catastrophic be void from any literature on the class' abilities file? I already listed paladins and rangers. They're obviously making it known what happens when you change align. Mages are not granted powers by dieties. There's no ass to kiss in order to retain your power. It's making me mad because there's no explaination as to what would make one seem overpowered by raising dead if you are neutral leaning towards evil. Even neutral period..big deal. If a mob can do it, why not a player? I understand some very unfair stuff like mobs casting incendiary cloud in 1-ways or the ever-so-popular mobs casting when a shopkeeper prevents PCs from casting..but seriously, what balance issue is it whatsoever that neutral cannot raise undead?
They say it was a 'bug' that allowed me to raise last night. Ok, so if it's a bug why wasn't I even offered a token reimb? No, I got nothing. Not even a warning. The pivotal part of a class change was listed as 'tweaks' in the news. *boggle* For the record, I hate the show 'Punked'
They say it was a 'bug' that allowed me to raise last night. Ok, so if it's a bug why wasn't I even offered a token reimb? No, I got nothing. Not even a warning. The pivotal part of a class change was listed as 'tweaks' in the news. *boggle* For the record, I hate the show 'Punked'
There always has to be a first for a problem to be seen, hun :(
Sorry that happened to you but chalk it up as a lesson learned and fix the alignment?
I'm sure they will get around to the helpfiles eventually, I'm pretty sure they are also dealing with the holidays and family life and it is probably bottom of the pile to them right now.
*hug* hun, again, sorry ti ahppened to you :( Aku has been very helpful to my lil necro in the past *hug*
(oo she is lvl 36 now!)
Sorry that happened to you but chalk it up as a lesson learned and fix the alignment?
I'm sure they will get around to the helpfiles eventually, I'm pretty sure they are also dealing with the holidays and family life and it is probably bottom of the pile to them right now.
*hug* hun, again, sorry ti ahppened to you :( Aku has been very helpful to my lil necro in the past *hug*
(oo she is lvl 36 now!)
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."
-Italian Proverb
-Italian Proverb
well the one in question is a necromancer. And there are plenty of cases where neutral and good aligned PC's are raising dead as undead when I searched.
Does nobody else see a HUGE problem in doing something that's not against the rules, losing 40k and a shitload of hours of your own time doing, then having it taken from you? Not even a token offer of reimb? It's like having a perfect attendance record and in the rules at work saying perfect attendance yields a $2000 bonus. Then at the end of the year they say 'Oh, you were promoted during that time, so you don't have perfect attendance for an entire year in that position...sorry - Yeah, I know we should have listed that in the rule book, and hey, I'm sure you'd have really appreciated it PRIOR to wasting your time..but I'm reeally sorry' Trouble with that example is it didn't cost them anything in the process.
All I'm trying to concentrate on, without sounding negative, is there is no balance issue on this.
*tried posting this at 4, but forgot :P
Does nobody else see a HUGE problem in doing something that's not against the rules, losing 40k and a shitload of hours of your own time doing, then having it taken from you? Not even a token offer of reimb? It's like having a perfect attendance record and in the rules at work saying perfect attendance yields a $2000 bonus. Then at the end of the year they say 'Oh, you were promoted during that time, so you don't have perfect attendance for an entire year in that position...sorry - Yeah, I know we should have listed that in the rule book, and hey, I'm sure you'd have really appreciated it PRIOR to wasting your time..but I'm reeally sorry' Trouble with that example is it didn't cost them anything in the process.
All I'm trying to concentrate on, without sounding negative, is there is no balance issue on this.
*tried posting this at 4, but forgot :P
Try to find a positive out of this...Kelemvor necromancers aren't allowed to raise undead, at all. They're generally neutral. >:) In fact, their goal is to destroy undead.
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After some discussion on the principles and theories behind necromancy, the animation spells will once again be open to neutral characters for their use. They will remain unavailable to good aligned PC or NPC however, regardless of any FR stories or sourcebooks that demonstrate good aligned undead, such as Baelnorns.
Eilistraee
Eilistraee wrote:After some discussion on the principles and theories behind necromancy, the animation spells will once again be open to neutral characters for their use. They will remain unavailable to good aligned PC or NPC however, regardless of any FR stories or sourcebooks that demonstrate good aligned undead, such as Baelnorns.
Ya big softy!
Touk says 'ac > glorishan > mr > touk > hps'
Siamorphe OOC: 'If AFKing is the devil, then Corth is the Antichrist and Glorishan is the False Prophet who supports him.'
Referring to the guild on 8/28/06: Oghma responds to your petition with 'your leadership team averages 280 days MIA :('
Siamorphe OOC: 'If AFKing is the devil, then Corth is the Antichrist and Glorishan is the False Prophet who supports him.'
Referring to the guild on 8/28/06: Oghma responds to your petition with 'your leadership team averages 280 days MIA :('
Eilistraee wrote:After some discussion on the principles and theories behind necromancy, the animation spells will once again be open to neutral characters for their use. They will remain unavailable to good aligned PC or NPC however, regardless of any FR stories or sourcebooks that demonstrate good aligned undead, such as Baelnorns.
Did you at least wait until he took his allignment back to -1000? That would be funny :twisted:
Nerox tells you 'Good deal, the other tanks I have don't wanna do it, and since your my special suicidal tank i figure you don't mind one bit!'
Alurissi tells you 'aren't you susposed to get sick or something and not beable to make tia so i can go? :P'
Alurissi tells you 'aren't you susposed to get sick or something and not beable to make tia so i can go? :P'
Eilistraee wrote:After some discussion on the principles and theories behind necromancy, the animation spells will once again be open to neutral characters for their use. They will remain unavailable to good aligned PC or NPC however, regardless of any FR stories or sourcebooks that demonstrate good aligned undead, such as Baelnorns.
And here I was thinking you wanted one of my 10 page menifesto's.
*sniff*
I thought you loved me! :*(
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I believe the any's have it.
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'
Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'
Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.
Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'
Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.
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