Spells and Magic

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
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Shevarash
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Spells and Magic

Postby Shevarash » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:00 pm

How would you like to see the magic and/or spells system evolve? Again, this is an open ended question, you may answer as you like. Please feel free to be creative here - I'm not looking for suggestions on individual spells, but more engine level stuff.
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Kallinar
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Postby Kallinar » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:31 pm

would "evolve" include wild magic effects?

That would be sweet to see.

< 514h/514H 126v/126V >
< > c 'barkskin' me
You start chanting...
< 514h/514H 126v/126V >
< >
Casting: barkskin *
< 514h/514H 126v/126V >
< >
You complete your spell...but something strange happens!
Your skin gains the texture and toughness of bark, then your body elongates with a horrible wrenching pain that reaches into the core of your being. Your feet take root into the ground below you and beautiful cherry blossoms begin to bloom from your many hyper-extended extremities. As your transformation into a tree completes, you become aware of the snickering of the plants around you regarding your plight.
< 5140h/5140H 0v/0V >
< >
Kallinar goes MOO
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Postby Dalar » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:14 pm

combo spells
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:18 pm

Dalar wrote:combo spells



yum!
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Postby selerial » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:35 pm

This is an old complaint I guess, but I'd like to see 10th circle spells have something much lower than a 5% stutter rate when you have 99skill in that sphere. Ideally I'd think that a .1% rate (point one) would be much closer to "master" of a skill. Essentially, stutters should be somewhat rare and remarkable, rather than how they are now, which is rather more like your common workaday stutter.
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Postby Lilira » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:10 am

Kinda like an "Oh Crap" instead of "Feh.. AGAIN?"
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Postby Vikaz » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:37 am

combo spells
make spells after timestop have 0*, not 1*
V
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:12 am

I would like to see less timesinks on spells. Like how relo fails and you just sit there 'stunned' for no real reason. Even at max'd teleportation it fails way too often.

Fix Silence person so you don't get that stupid spam telling you that you aren't able to speak. WAY too spammy.

Would like to see what I suggested awhile back. Having a contengency or sequencer, say for enchanter..or other spellup masters. As follows:

SEQUENCER
Spell.

Area of effect: <victim>
Aggressive: No
Cumulative: Until desired Effect
Duration: Dependant on the proficiency of caster
Class/Circle: Enchanter 9th
Type of spell: Enchantment

This spell requires a component, thus allowing other spells to be chanelled until released. After casting this spell while holding the spell component, the spells 'detect invisibility, detect magic, energy shield, haste, blur, stoneskin, globe of invulnerability, and dragonscales' could be charged into the component. However, the component can only hold a maximum of three spells, and normal spellup protocal still apply. The component is automatically used when given to someone, which is especially useful in emergencies.

Note: charged components will be lost upon renting, rebooting, or a crash.

CHAIN CONTENGENCY
Spell.

Area of effect: <victim>
Aggressive: Yes
Cumulative: No
Duration: Dependant on the proficiency of caster
Class/Circle: Enchanter 10th
Type of spell: Enchantment

Upon casting Chain Contengency, a held spell component can be charged with an array of spells, including Prismatic Spray, Blacklight Burst, or a combination of single target spells. The spell component must be held and called into power in order to release it's power as if it were a staff. The component will at that time, be destroyed in releasing the power charged within. Also, it is important to note the component can only be charged with 2 spells at any time.

**

One HUGE change that definitely needs attention is that mobs can cast while you are leaving the room, and continue to cast until the **'s run out, which is nonsense. How many players have left the room on 'x' starts casting an offensive spell, you memout and regain a spell or two, walk back in and WHAM, you just got tagged with major paralysis because it takes so long to cast?? This also occurs when a mob is trying to raise a pet, you drag corpse out, and re-enter, mob will continue to cast. Players cannot a) continue finishing a spell when target has left, b) raise a corpse that has been drug out of the room :/

Another thing I'd like to see addressed is the casting of multiclassed mobs who have been hit with feeblemind. Human adventurer in Druid sanctuary, or Finn in Faerie Forest is a great example of 'wtf?' Upon being feebleminded, Finn can still just DUMP sandstorms. It would appear that being warrior/cleric/invoker gives these type mobs insane mana regen despite feeblemind. Silence person lasts longer on players than it does mobs as I've seen as well. Ice tongue worked 39 seconds once :P Not sure why durations are rather random. It's a higher circle spell and its duration is very short.

As for casters in general, I'd like to point out Shaiith's post in my frustration with how classes like enchanters, clerics, and other dismally inoffensive classes are screwed out of XP because a) ZERO damage xp, b) losing to memming out, etc. Shaiith's a thesaurus for gameplay, I'm glad he took the time to post about these type situations. Stone/Dscale xp needs to be MUCH better. Let alone memming out, you gain NOTHING.
When a illusionist casts his damage, he gets his xp, but for chaos in big zones, a chanter will get yelled at right quick for offensive behavior, thus they have to memout. For such pivotal classes being needed on the mud (chanter, cleric) their xp gain is absurd and slow.

Lastly, melee get critic hits, allow surges for damage spells! Critical spell fail and supershrug when you get a perfect roll on spell save. (meaning 1/4 damage etc.)
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:17 am

Catastrophic spell failure / miraculous spell result.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:21 am

hehe on baldur's gate II LOD, catastrophic failure was using my wild mage to cast abi's and I summoned a pit fiend to beat down my party instead! :P
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Postby Yasden » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:23 am

Make mobs feedback each other, the bastards.

Make them stop casting areas in single file.

Make them abort target spells when the target leaves the room.

Have projectile and slashing spells do certain effects, perhaps even chance of a crit on a slashing spell.

Remove group-vigorize.

Implement cone/stream/sphere/line for area spells, and allow casters to pick upon casting, so they can focus an area on a specific target if they so choose. Spellcast/specialize will reduce, and even eliminate at max level, the chance of hitting other targets outside the area.

Allow for mis-fired spells to hit group members.

Implement wild magic areas on the mud.

Combination spells, since they were supposed to come in with feedback. :P

Remove unused spellcast_*** skills for all casting classes, re-implement them when an added spell warrants it.

Implement an improved memorization skill, so that mages can memorize additional spells other than quest spells without a book. Maybe 2 from each circle maximum. Backup books are a huge unnecessary time sink.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:28 am

I like that idea of mem'g without a book. Just double or triple the time to mem it because recalling so many spells would suck ass unless you're a squid.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:29 am

Also add half-elves to be casters! Please do something with them. They're so damned bland it's not funny.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:41 am

1. change a lot of defensive spells to be % damage reduction instead of % to avoid all damage. There was a great thread on this that basically said if you make spells reduce damage instead of eliminate damage then healers will have more to do and a lot of twinky soloing goes away. I should have to do more than walk with a group to Brimirs and cast 0 heals maybe 2 vits because of displace blur and scale or afk through a whole zone coming back to the keys for 5 minutes at a time at "real" fights.

2. I'd like to see spells in the same circle having different mem times. That way you could sandblast be a 5 second mem spell and inferno be a 20 s mem spell. I just think its the stupidest thing ever to see mages casting area spells in single target fights just because its what they have memd and doesnt matter.

3. Max stat should produce some real advantages. The current MAYBE 1 second gain on meming 45 seconds wor
th of spells is ... lack luster. Consider that spell damage/effectiveness doesn't escalate while melee damage does. New equipment increases melee damage, but new equipment does not really help casters be more effective. Do you want to constantly be tweaking melee vs spell damage every couple years in the code or with knobs?

4. I'd prefer to see single target spell damage triple or quadruple then have the "out" time increase the equivalent amount (this would go along with #2 in reverse of the example i made). Mages should be known for front loaded damage, but they aren't except when considering area spells (front loaded damage in a much more diffused manner). Mobs already do so much damage with spells that you can't fight 2 or 3 of them without disabling them so they don't need any bonus.

5. spells that have the format X damage divided amongst Y targets (where Y is the # of mobs in room) or X/Y damage divided against a set # of Y targets (like 2,3,5). Perhaps 500 damage is a lot against 1 target, and significant at 250 against 2 targets, but at 10 targets 50 damage would be pointless. You can use this to obsolete lower circle spells, like if incendiary cloud was 1000 damage, it wouldnt be as commonly used as it is today in most fights. Might also include a minimum # of targets so if you cast 1000 damage at 1 mob it would only do 500 damage, but would do 500 each to two mobs, or 333 each to 3. Also, you could give out more area spells to a class like invoker and their area spells would essentialy become mild single targets as they get higher level rather than completely useless or complete overkill.

6. Rework the spell system so that specialized casters do their job from level 1... or rework the spell system so that all mages level to 20 as a sorcerer, the gain / lose spells when they specialize. In Final Fantasy type games, you get things like stone1, stone2, stone3, stone4 rather than get stone at level 21 and having it "scale" based on skill (level). Why does a level 26 enchanter have enough power that a level 50 rogue wants to do duo DS exp with them yet level without any defensive magic to speak of until 21? If the level 26 enchanter only had stone 3 which wasn't effective against any mob over level 45, they would be encouraged to group at their level and you wouldn't have this insane power level at 21/22, 26. Why couldn't a level 6 mage have a 50 hp stone skin?

7. Mages can solo because they can cast spells, yet most melee characters can't solo. The idea is not to make melee able to solo, its to figure out how mages are unbalanced and able to do so. The answer is defensive spells eliminating all damage AND front loaded damage (in for 1 round doing 3 rounds of damage, out for 2 rounds to mem and balance). Make being hit while casting a spell give you a % chance to abort (or add several *s) based on several factors including circle of spell, your skill, damage of the hit, perhaps even work in some sort of spell type system that makes some spells more prone to abort from melee than others. Then give classes that are supposed to solo some sort of skill that helps you continue chanting after getting hit (cap it low then add eq that modifies the skill level).

8. Drastically change reduce / enlarge. Its stupid that players can completely negate bash with size adjustment and no penalty other than waiting 3 minutes for the enchanter to reduce the entire group. Make size displayable with look.

9. Can we tell with look who is casting? A white mage stands here casting a spell called 'yrl' (if you passed the cleric spell knowledge skill check).

or some other command? glancecaster, 2.ghoul is casting, 3.ghast is casting.

10. Combo spells would be neat and be implemented in such a way that 2x secondary caster = 1x primary caster. Most popular examples, 2 heals = full heal equivalent, 2 stones = dscales equivalent.

11. Make debuff a core part of the game. Hex and curse and perhaps banshee wail are the only debuffs worth casting. Give some of those non core function casters some hellacious debuffs and remove some damage. I'm not really talking debuffs like silence and feeblemind, but debuffs like + to saves, + to ac, slow melee, slow casting, - damroll, - hitroll ect, less likely to switch or use a skill ect. Signfiicant bonuses that can actually be landed on high level mobs before the fight is over.

12. It may be interesting to implement more spell recovery methods. Right now we have mem/pray, bards who just refresh, and squids who gain psp. Duris has something called tupor which you just rest/sleep to start memming and you regain spells but instead of specific spells you gain spell slots (like bards). They also have something called communing for druids where they just get their spells back constantly, even while fighting, without having to actually enter a mem command (lenght of time to regain spells dependent on terrain, they dont commune for crap in desert, but mem insanely fast in forest). Something equally interesting is that one race on duris only tupors no matter what class you are, so while a human cleric might pray specific spells, this other race would tupor for spell slots.

13. I think that the mem time for low level players is ridiculous. The power of the spells they are casting does not warrant the mem times in most cases. Why does a level 1 need 20+ seconds to cast a level 1 cure light wounds which heals next to no damage? Why not let them mem the spell in 7 seconds or 10 seconds like they will at 31 when they get full heal?

14. Make your "class" affect how fast you mem/chant spells in specific schools of magic.

15. A tech/skill tree that makes some spells available to you and others not even within the same class? Or perhaps out of a base general set of spells that all mages have access to? So maybe you'd have to choose whether or not your mage has dim door and relocate or pwb/pwk/pws or gate or pick 2 of 3 ect.

16. bring back sorcs, just kidding. just wanted to beat corth to the punch.

17. Eliminate some of the insanely long spell lists. Its just inane that a level 50 has 11 first circle spells. Its a complete waste and silly. Perhaps even reduce the total spell list by 50% or cap things at like 5 spells per level.

18. Put some sort of cap on how many spells you can cast in a specified time period, perhaps make each spells cost a certain amount of mana in addition to being memd to cast so that you can't sit there and chain 500 gates in a row or cast 10 areas every fight. Perhaps not prevent you from casting, but after going past your "limit" have it add an exponential # of stars for consecutive casts and or take an exponential amount of time to "recover" or first take extra time with no cast penalty then take extra recovery and extra cast time. Create EQ to increase affect the various variables to provide more avenue for "escalation".

19. Clerics really need a specialization, one in healing one in vitting, perhaps one in spell damage/melee defense. They really are woefully bland. Unless of course you can do something to make druid/shaman function well enough in the healing department that they could be considered "cleric specializations"

20. You really should never have a mistargetting problem because a mob walked in the room. Area spell ok, but a target no. There should be a command that locks you into a target (even if you leave the room) that doesn't require you lagging yourself 1-2 rounds to engage. I suppose its possible to lose track of your target in a ferocious battle, but not really unless the mobs are identical (including damage you've done to it).

21. More spells to counteract the various timesinks in the game. Most notably ress effects. Give us a spell that you cast before someone dies that makes their ress / recovery instant. Give us an ability that takes 1000 seconds (total prep time, not necessarily consecutive) to "prepare" but once prepared can eliminate ress effects from one person (actually make this some sort of epic skill / alternate advancement skill for priests). That way if someone is dumb and dies, the group can move on, but if its a full spank you have a normal bard recovery.

22. More distinction between level 50 characters. A brand new level 50 is pretty much just as powerful as someone who has been to 1000 zones.
----

I know a lot of my ideas seem to want to make more subclasses / specialized casters ect which would play right into the idea of eliminating sorc classes and bringing back sorcs with specialities, but although i use some dramatic illustrations, I wouldn't want such large changes implemented, small ones just enough to give flavor along the lines of the examples. Changes as I promote would be justification for pwipe or a completly different mud and I happen to like this one.
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Postby Boboloppe » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:52 am

I'd love to see something where at lvl 50 and 200+ years old and 112 intelegence my gnome can remember how to cast detect invis on someone with out looking it up in my spell book.

a way for enchanters to gain experience from lvl 21-50+ based off of the damage we prevent from stone and scales this was suggested to be like cleric healing exp but we never got it.

a way that a chanter can hold a dragonscales at lvl 50 on a single tank. you would cast it then say type maintain Vigis and you would not be able to cast any other spells while you did this and it would lag you to stop maybe a round or 2 but if you had a high skill in your mastery you would be able to maintain the scale on him so that insane hard fights that make scales drop in a couple rounds would be more acheavable. it might also encourage people to bring more than 1 enchanter to a high lvl zone and get more people to roll them.

a system where each circle is given a point value and rather than giving mages a set number of spell slots per circle based of lvl give them so many points so. That way if I need 8 dragonscales to protect my group I can mem them I'll just have to sacrifice my ability to cast other things.

thats it for now thanks :)
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corrections

Postby Boboloppe » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:28 am

it came to my attention that the Idea of a skill called Maintain or something like it was miss understood by some.

I wouldn't think to make it hold the spell as long as you do it or be perfect.
I was thinking that if a regular scales would hold for 2 rounds if you maintained it it might last 6 or 8 but while you did that you can't cast any spells to help the other tanks. you can't attack you can't dodge aswell you suffer penalties to all defenses.

it should also be a lvl 50 skill and probly have a quest to get it this way Kiryan would have his wish that a lvl 50 who has been 50 a while would have an advantage over the new guy who just made it ( other than being able to start with Sotana at lvl 50 and never not be lvl 50 on the trip. Just kidding Sots you know I love ya)

also I was told that some kind of exp is given if the caster of a stone or scales is in the room while it is up I feel it should be increased.
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Postby Disoputlip » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:11 am

Coorporative magic. (Described in Tome of Magic, Ad&d 2nd. ed.)

This is only for priests. It works by a group of priests holding up their
matching decoder rings while they shout: "Power of One".

Then because they are many they can do stuff not normally possible.

Examples could be:

250 levels of cleric could ress a failed ress corpse.
200 levels of cleric could cast a bless that lasted a mud year
150 levels of cleric could summon an avatar

150 levels of shaman could spirit walk a corpse that was in tele, but was touched.

150 levels of druid could make any room nature. (rest of boot)
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Postby Demuladon » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:54 am

I'd like to see mana (psp's) used as *the* source of spells.

ie. modify the psi system and apply it to all casters.

A spell would cost a certain minimum amount of mana dependent on spell circle.

Changes:

-when casting a spell, the caster has the option of spending more mana (than the minimum) to produce a more powerful spell effect (exponentially more mana spent produces linear increase in spell power)

-mana regeneration is dependent on caster race, level, int, wis,power, hunger, thirst, and bard song (no more meditate). Mage can move etc while regenerating mana.

-optimal mana usage becomes the skill a player needs to develop

-no more "mem outs" during a battle

-no more spellbooks

-overall effect is that magic power reduced because there is less of it around, however an individual spell might be substantially more powerful than currently available depending on how much mana the player wants to spend on the spell.

EDIT: using mana for all magic would address Kiryans points 4,5,6,12,13,14,17,18
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Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:30 pm

Yes, but it would ruin the heart of the game which is its basis on dnd. Also, its one of the more unique features, probably the defining feature, of toril that we mem isntead of use a mana system. Its one of the big reasons I came here from a mana mud, because it was closer to DnD.

The problem with mana systems imo is that you can cast any spell you want with that mana, so instead of having 4 infernos you could have 40 infernos. The Tupor system at least maintains the spell circle concept to limit the characters power. On Everquest and WoW you can only cast spells that are on your 'prep' list. It wouldn't have been hard to make you able to cast any spell, but they impd a sort of mem'd list just the same (also necessary with a gui, but anyways).

Can anyone think of a feature of mana systems that couldn't be impd in our mem systems? At least one that isn't the fundamental difference between the two systems.

----

enchanters already get exp from damage stoneskin prevents. Its not insane, but it is noticeable and you must be in the room and visible to the mob that is being fought... I forget whether you have to be engaged or grouped.
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Postby Kallinar » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:41 pm

Woah, some of you guys are totally suggesting that we make this a non D&D rules game. Using mana as a basis for spells?! Limiting your spell load to 5 spells per circle?!!!11!!one!one

Blasphemy!
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Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:51 pm

23. Implement an auxiliary mage mana along with my suggestion to use it in combination with their mem'd spells to limit their spell output. Then implement a wild magic skill that uses the mana either in a spellfire type burst (pure damage) or a subset of spells that works soley off mana based off some factors. Perhaps turn this into some sort of epic skill / alternate advancement.

24. Imeplement religions / deities. Add spells granted by and restricted by ect. If you worship kossuth he doesnt want you using fellfrost, if you worship Bane he doesn't want you ressing good aligned people.... ect ect ect.

25. Equipment that escalates spellcaster output. Rings of Fireball wizardry (not a proc, give them a spell slot that can only be used for fireball). Bracers of cold that improve damage on all cold based spells.

26. spell damage types, spells should have different damage types, more than we presently have. Like holy/light damage, dark/unholy damage, wind damage (good against flying), and all sorts of melee types... If a mage casts a spell that picks up a boulder and hurls it at a giant striking him, the giant shouldn't get a chance to shrug the spell, its physical damage.

Then we need to see more monster vulnerabilities to different types of damage. its lame that force missile is the universally best spell to cast against any single target mob except a fire based one (fell frost) or a troll (ferno). Make people quest / earn more spells, make them prepare for specific fights in a way other than forgetting areas for singles or vice versa.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:06 pm

Some good ideas here, keep it coming. :)
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Postby Kallinar » Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:15 pm

I totally agree with the aspect of mages starting out as a classless mage or Sorc and picking a specialty at level 10 or 20. Just makes sense to me for some reason. Of course I feel the warriors rogues and clerics should follow the same path.

The whole class specialty quest thing on Homeland was a favorite of mine and would love to see that implemented here in the longrun.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:17 pm

Would be nice if this game's defensive system was based more on percentages rather than all or none. This way, damage mitigation in general could be achieved through different tiers of equipment placed in different tiers of difficulty of zones. Also, fix bards to work off these percentages so they're not completely worthless.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:33 pm

27. Can we get the abiltiy to chain spells AND keep the abort ability? I remember life without abort and it sucked, however, I hate all the extra triggers I had to write so that I could queue up spells. Give us some sort of commands like addqueue and abortqueue and pausequeue ect.

28. Can we please use gsay / tell while chanting? Its really annoying to try and time your tells/gsays through your triggered queue list.
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Postby Branthur » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:41 pm

Admittedly coming from a very clerical standpoint. :)

Archons. Devils. Demons. Eldarins.

Make the alignment and the diety that a cleric follows MATTER. I almost want to say give clerics domains and domain specific spells that they can access. Turning, summoning, binding, censuring. Clerics heal, they deal with undead, and they deal with aspects of the outer planes on a far more personal level than mages in many cases.

In D&D there are many ways to play clerics, however they get many spells that grant them the ability, albiet temporarily, on the same level of fighters in fighting ability (NOT SKILL. I'm not saying give them bash, or the defensive skills overall). Divine Power. Righteous Might. Divine Favor.

The ability at high levels to take on aspects of a creature from their favored outer plane for a short period of time. Maybe an Aspect of the Diety spell, or something similar.

Blur, or Displace. Not both. They both derrive their defense from the same source, so should not stack.

Blur or Displace should be damage avoidance. Stone and Scales should be Damage Reduction. Scales is far too good right now, and is basicly damage avoidance.
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Postby Eza » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:02 pm

Yasden wrote:Have projectile and slashing spells do certain effects, perhaps even chance of a crit on a slashing spell.


I like that idea
Holding this in mind
That if we fall, we all fall
And we fall alone
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Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:06 pm

scales is good, but its the stacking of scales/stone blur and displace with -130+ ac that really is fubar. Your avoiding damage like mad with blur, then anything that gets through that starts chipping at displace like mad, then your down to scale but before that chips away, displace or blur is back up. Having so many ways to avoid the damage really equates to avoiding all damage.

I think I'd like to see scale not chip much but just provide damage reduction. So that you don't have this when scale drops your tank starts eating 800 damage a round, but its when displace/blur drops your tank starts eating 25% of the damage or 200 a round.

I'd still vote that scales/stone not work on casters (if they want to cast spells that is).


29. Refreshable spells. Let us refresh spells like vit and scale instead of waiting for them to fall. Maybe not all spells, but definitely spells like vit, armor, bless, globe, haste.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:37 pm

Considering 550 corpses on last tia run, I'm thinking blur/scales, etc doesn't really matter on high end...
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Postby Tasan » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:05 am

Thilindel wrote:Considering 550 corpses on last tia run, I'm thinking blur/scales, etc doesn't really matter on high end...


Dragons don't do damage that is prevented or mitigated by either of those spells. The straight procs are what kill.

As for the demons: When defensive code was introduced it needed a lot of tweaking because the skills degraded too quickly when you had more than 2 or 3 mobs attacking you. Now, the upper limit seems to be about 5, which in a fight w/ 21 mobs which all attack 1 person.... ends up in a corpse.

I have to agree w/ Kiryan and Dalar in that mitigation is going to be the best way to go w/ this. Not only will it be easier to tweak when warriors are given balls again, but it will reduce the tendency for 1 or 2 spells to dictate a fight.

I would like to see blur change to be effectively 1 more defensive skill per mob per round. You tank 5 mobs, you get 5 chances(yes chances, I don't think blur needs to be all or not) for blur to save you a hit. It would be nice if this was the last effect considered before damage mitigation spells/skills, i.e. AC? -> dodge? -> shieldblock? -> parry? -> blur?

I have more ideas, but I'm too tired to think of them atm.
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Postby Lahgen » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:32 am

Disoputlip wrote:Coorporative magic. (Described in Tome of Magic, Ad&d 2nd. ed.))


seconded.
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Postby Boboloppe » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:21 am

I like the Idea of refreshing scales and vit just have the spell reset when cast on someone who has it already would save alot of wasted time on spellups

I don't understand why you would want to keep chanters from scaling themselves? unless I'm missing something that would be like not letting clerics heal themselves.

I'd really rather not have mana be a part of mages nor would I like to see us make spell granades or energency rescue kits since I can attest enchanters already have plenty to do just getting exp to keep lvl 50 after larger zones.
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Postby amolol » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:50 am

i personally wouldnt mind seeing things shuffeled a little bit... i would like to see invokers have all their spells be more like innate abilities. turn them into sorcs so they dont hafto mem but they only have a certain amount of spells per mud day. then go ahead and up the damage on some of the bigger ones (mobs too of course) as a side note with the increased damage i would like to see a small quest involved with almost every spell they get that would be initiated by their guild masters.

i would like to see every elemental based spell have some effect.. but reduce the damage on them. sothat they were more like realy nice accessories to a group other than secondary damage and defense...)

rangers just need some spell lovin period end of story.

druids are fairly well balanced i like they way they work. but i also like the idea of letting them set a room as nature.

enchanters. humm... i would like to see them be able to refresh a spell. i would also like to see them become a bit less on the damage side of things and more place their offensive spells in the category of does cool effects that hinder a mob with alot less damage. as for defensive spells not much to change or improve in any way.

illusionists i think should be able to blind... i mean if they can make someone thing that they are being stabbed and make them belive it so much that it actually happens... they should be able o make them think that a paper bag was just wrapped around their head.

i would like to see liches have a few more pets. i would love to see them be able to animate a higher level caster... i mean they transcended death for christs sake.... they should also be able to use a corpse (touched or untouched) as transport for themselves.

necro... umm toss ventriliquate right out the door... its useless and takes up code. humm i would like to see them have a bit more of a roll in taking a mobs defenses down. mebbe its more lich like but mebbe they should be able to stuff a rotten spleen down somethings throat make it throw up and perhaps render it incapeable of fighting back for the round.. my only complaint is ventrilloquate.

i would like to see clerics be able to get gheal or mass vit. at lvl 50 i know that your thinkin about the shamans but i have something in store for them too.

i think shamans should be able to gfheal a smaller fheal than a strait cleric fheal but i think it would be handy. and not to overpowering. but im shootin in the breese for this. i also would like to see them have more spells involving the harming of ones soul. i think they should be able to bottle 1 soul into their spirit totem or something like it then release it as an attack. exa: if it is a dragon soul then they should be able to release 1 bvreath attack upon the type of the dragon. if it is an elf they should be able to release a flurry(8) of melee atttacks (at 50 dam each) and each race would have a different effect (i dont ever expect to see this at all)

bards and battle chanters should get charm person... i mean c'mon tyhats their firled of expertise.

dire raiders perfect spell balance on that one, good job.


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at no time do i ever intend to see any of these idea implimented nor do i ever expect them to be. they are hear purely for the lets make amolol seem more stupid factor because he has nfc what he is talking about. if for any reason you wish to flame or retort this post i probably will not read it at all. if you like my ideas and think you could improve on them by all means do so. i apologise ahead of time for any spelling mistakes and grammar errors. im a food guy not an english major.
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Postby Yasden » Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:07 am

Another thought I had, in reference to a neat Duris feature.

A (Casting) tag added onto a PC/NPC when you enter the room. It can't be seen by scan or looking through a portal, etc.

Another one as well:

Giving non-caster classes the clerical/sorcerous spell knowledge skills, but at a reduced cap. My warriors are around enough spells I know the words when I hear them!

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Postby Ambar » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:09 pm

A Human stands here. (casting )(flying)

also meming while you yourself are not actively involved in battle .. any good mage can concentrate that well.

Refreshing spells but ONLY if it is (fading rapidly)


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Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:47 pm

Thillindel, sure stone is fine against 2 or 3 mobs, but you said HIGH END not the zone trash that you fight to get to the real fights.

Tank seelie king fight with stone instead of scale or double patrol in manscorps.

No impact to the high end game, that is easily one of the hands down dumbest comments I've ever seen on these forums, yet you continue to try and defend it.

As far as I've heard and gathered, scale typically will nearly always block any hit under like 250 and stoneskin is more like 150. So any high end mob that averages more than 150 per hit will always pass through stone, yet needs to exceed 250 before always ignoring scale. Dragon wingslap procs are great examples of this, they nearly always ignore scale PROBABLY based on the single hit damage they do which seems to start around 225 and top out around 350 (which interestingly made blur pretty much more important than scale). The dragon crush proc does a lot more damage 300-600 and always ignores scale based on this principle.

-----

I think we need to cut more "effects" from spells, especially spells that already do good damage. The reason we have all these stupid effects on spells is that without them every spell is just pure damage, no flavor at all. Instead of adding effects to every spell, we should implement more different damage types so spells can situationally have great potential.

Fell frost doesn't do the best damage, but it sure rips fire elementals a new one. It wouldn't need slow/para if there were alternative 9th circle spells. Invokers should be mostly pure damage spells (with no effects because they do more damage in general) and other classes like elementalist should have spells with typeful damage, fire/cold/air/water ect and DIFFERENT spells with effects that actually land. Adding slow to fell frost really feels like an effort to make it a decent spell to cast in all situations with great damage in specific situations, why not just make it a bad spell to cast in all situations and a great spell in some situations? Why does it need the extra utility? Do invokers have to have a useful single target / area spell in every slot?

Some games have an alternating cycle of spells like in 1st circle you get fire and cold, 6th you get air/water 11th upgraded fire/cold spells, 16th circle upgraded air/water ect ect ect...

I really think that all non damage oriented classes should have only typeful damage which will generally be useless except against specific mob types. I mean I could see elementalist having a spell like blizzard that does inferno damage but only against fire based mobs and does like chain lightning damage against everyone else. Spread it out some, maybe druids have the best single target spell against fire based mobs but ele have the best area spell against fire mobs, druids have the best water based area ele have the best water based single target. necro has the best cold single target and the best unholy single target. Cleric has the best holy/unholy area ect ect ect.

invoker damage should be consistent and somewhere 10-20% ish below the best typeful damage. top end spellcaster damage output should be 4x top end melee output in the first 15 rounds and take 45 rounds to recover that output.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:33 pm

30. Alter the way that memorizing works so that its not a linear gain of spells vs time.

Create some sort of mem factor that you multiply against each spell's time and decrease the factor the longer you mem. So for example the first 10 seconds of mem you mem at 25% efficiency, the next 10 seconds you mem at 50% efficiency, the next 20 seconds you mem at 100% efficiency the next 30 seconds you mem at 150% efficiency, the next 60 seconds you mem at 200% efficiency. So, after memming for 40 seconds your now memming spells 50% faster, after 70 seconds your memming spells twice as efficiently as normal or 8x more efficient than the first 10 seconds.

example, memming 10, 20 second spells

existing method (ignoring meditate)

20, 40, 60, 80, 100, 120, 140, 160, 180, 200

nonlinear method making longer mems more efficient
45, 61, 73, 86, 93, 103, 113, 123, 133, 143, 153

(my math might be bad but you get the point)

This would generally keep people from memming out as much and casually tossing spells around. It would also aid in allowing spellcasters to have much more potent damage spells since they couldn't remem that spell in 2 rounds and be in casting it again (but they could come back in after 25 rounds of combat and toss the whole arsenal again).

Obviously this exact proposal would need some closer examination as current game dynamics require enchanters to mem out scales at the rate of 1 about every 9 seconds, but special cases could be made / game dynamics could be changed (like making dscales not chip and just reduce all damage by 75%).

Or you could take this idea and reverse it to punish people for casting more spells (and therefore having more spells to mem) except you'd have to track it over time instead of within a single med cycle.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:38 pm

Why should refreshing spells only be on "fading rapidly" (duris has "fading" and "faiding rapidly" on detect magic)?

The point is to eliminate the waiting for spells to drop. If we implement it only on "fading" conditions, we will be waiting for spells to be "fading" instead of "dropping".

You might as well not implement it at all if all your going to do is just make it so you can refresh 1 minute earlier.
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:40 pm

Flames and/or personal attacks will be deleted from this thread, no exceptions.

This is for research and intelligent discussion - take your personal crap to some other thread, or better yet to email.
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Postby Shar » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:03 pm

Quit it guys. This entire thread has useful ideas. Every post has them, even if they won't be implemented.

Kiry, your belittling attitude towards other peoples ideas needs to stop please.

Thilindel, your ideas have merit. Don't react to the negative comments others give about them, please. No need to defend a good idea. :)

Everyone is doing great with the feedback. :)

(didn't see your post Shev. Was still reading the thread. Sowwy)
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:19 pm

Tag-team smackdown!
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
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Postby Boboloppe » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:59 pm

I don't think anyone should do anything to lower enchanter damage as it stands now at lvl 50 with almost every skill that has any affect maxed I can barely kill anything without rememing in fact to kill a fern I need almost 2 full mems of my only 2 usable damage spells constrict and needle swarm

as far as giving them cool effects that reduce the targets offencive power in someway I like that Idea alot but they wouldn't get used in zones much unless enchanters could refresh our defensive spells. That is my opinion I personally would be very careful about casting damage when I might mis a critical glance on the tank that lets me scale him that much sooner.

also I'd like to see sorcerer's spell knowledge give a bonus at a certain point where I can see when my dragonscales I cast are fading same for blur and globe.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:24 pm

Shar wrote:Quit it guys. This entire thread has useful ideas. Every post has them, even if they won't be implemented.

Kiry, your belittling attitude towards other peoples ideas needs to stop please.

Thilindel, your ideas have merit. Don't react to the negative comments others give about them, please. No need to defend a good idea. :)

Everyone is doing great with the feedback. :)

(didn't see your post Shev. Was still reading the thread. Sowwy)


Thanks for ignoring me Shar :(
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Postby Shar » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:36 pm

Its nearly a specialty of mine, but you're welcome I guess.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:00 pm

I thought my comment about Thilindel Kiryan and the area staff was quite funny.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Thilindel » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:27 pm

Better watch it dalar, lest you feel a 10 paragraph reply from Kiry!

As far as magic goes, I'm almost all for getting rid of invokers. Maybe up the other mage classes to catch them. Cloud/swarm/fernballer are the only real ones they cast.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:39 pm

kiryan wrote:Why should refreshing spells only be on "fading rapidly" (duris has "fading" and "faiding rapidly" on detect magic)?

The point is to eliminate the waiting for spells to drop. If we implement it only on "fading" conditions, we will be waiting for spells to be "fading" instead of "dropping".

You might as well not implement it at all if all your going to do is just make it so you can refresh 1 minute earlier.


if there was no penalty at all you could just spamcast the spell .. at least if it is fr or fading there is some time limit
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Postby Boboloppe » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:02 am

maybe I'm missing something or maybe Ambar is. all refresh would do is allow for a good enchanter to keep a tank scaled all the time if I am silly and choose to cast all 4 dragonscales 30 seconds apart I'm not gaining anything unless the fight is so bad that scales only lasts 45 seconds. If this change was made and I hope with all my little gnomish might that it is Shev is far to intelegent to allow spells like scales to stack in anyway.

I see it working like this if scales will last 2 minutes in this fight and I cast scales every 90 seconds all I'm doing is reseting the clock back to 2 minutes every 90 seconds.
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Postby kiryan » Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:54 am

I must be missing whatever your missing, cuz I don't get it either.

Maybe she means "adds to duration" instead of refresh?

So like we're saying you cast a 5 minute spell, then 30 seconds later cast it again the spell is just going to end 30 seconds later than it was previously scheduled to fade or 5 minutes from the time of the second cast.

Maybe shes thinking you cast a 5 minute spell now, then cast it again in 30 seconds that it just adds 5 minutes to the total duration of the spell meaning it will fade 9:30 seconds after the second cast?

If that was the way it was going to be impd then yea, you'd probably want to limit when and how often they could "refresh" the spell so you don't have people running around with scale for 75 minutes.
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Postby Ambar » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:39 am

We'd still trigger off (fading rapidly) anyway .. but

Correct, I would hate to see it refrshable until it was at least fading .. we all know there are crappy enchanters out there who just randomly cast spells

I would see the duration start over at the new spell .. I assumed that is what we were all calling refresh .. I think I was just clarifying that it wouldnt refresh unless the old spell was at least ready to fall ..

Edit:
Spell is cast.
Seconds later spell is cast again. Nothing happens to duration of spell.

(fading rapidly)
Spell is cast. Spell duration begins anew, just as if it had fallen and a new spell was cast.
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