Re-evaluate max_stat benefits?

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Thilindel
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Re-evaluate max_stat benefits?

Postby Thilindel » Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:10 am

Max_agi/con seems fine, but I'd like to know if other people thought the max str, dex, wis, int, power stats benefit enough?

Str - need to wear massive max_str for halfling and still at around 120 they can't drag.

Dex - despite 2 notches past dwarf's natural dex, for example, they don't gain the extra innate attacks that elf/gnome etc do.

Int(& pow)/Wis - virtually an inconsequential gain. 130 int vs. 100 isn't much difference at all. Cept for Yuan-ti, wisdom just is stinky to start. Specially halflings, tho there isn't too many cleric halflings anyway :P

This is just my take on the matter..anybody else see something here I'm not?
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Postby Sarell » Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:40 am

My favourite suggestions to max stat stuff i've seen in the paet few years are to

a: remove max stat stuff, but you can go over 100 with regular stat gear, makes stat gear worth something.

b: make everyone reroll on a roller that will yield 1 perfect stat at best, to make stat gear more valuable and increase the diversity of gear worn.

Halflings/drow not being able to drag big corprse is a neat idea, but totally annoying in game. I like when the hobbit drags the big fatty off the funeral pyre with a huge effort :)
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:40 pm

Its being addressed. :)
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Postby Pril » Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:47 pm

Shevarash wrote:Its being addressed. :)


Dammit Shev took 7 hrs to respond, what's with the slow response time?

I mean we didn't even have time to turn this thread into a flamefest!

*duck*

Pril
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Postby Dalar » Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:33 pm

Pril wrote:
Shevarash wrote:Its being addressed. :)


Dammit Shev took 7 hrs to respond, what's with the slow response time?

I mean we didn't even have time to turn this thread into a flamefest!

*duck*

Pril


I know a couple of gay guys from Boring, Oregon who wouldn't mind meeting you.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Pril » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:53 pm

Dalar wrote:
Pril wrote:
Shevarash wrote:Its being addressed. :)


Dammit Shev took 7 hrs to respond, what's with the slow response time?

I mean we didn't even have time to turn this thread into a flamefest!

*duck*

Pril


I know a couple of gay guys from Boring, Oregon who wouldn't mind meeting you.


A) I don't need to meet your ex-boyfriends.

B) I'm not gay.

Thanks for thinking of me though man, good to know yer looking out.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:05 pm

Pril wrote:
Dalar wrote:
Pril wrote:
Shevarash wrote:Its being addressed. :)


Dammit Shev took 7 hrs to respond, what's with the slow response time?

I mean we didn't even have time to turn this thread into a flamefest!

*duck*

Pril


I know a couple of gay guys from Boring, Oregon who wouldn't mind meeting you.


A) I don't need to meet your ex-boyfriends.

B) I'm not gay.

Thanks for thinking of me though man, good to know yer looking out.


<3
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Gormal » Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:49 pm

Dalar doesn't just live in San Francisco, he falls right into the stereotype...
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Postby Dalar » Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:09 pm

actually i live in san jose
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Re: Re-evaluate max_stat benefits?

Postby Yarash » Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:55 am

Thilindel wrote:dex - despite 2 notches past dwarf's natural dex, for example, they don't gain the extra innate attacks that elf/gnome etc do.

If dwarves could get these extra attacks, what reason would there be to play a gnome, elf, or halfling rogue? Answer: None! Currently there is at least some benefit to play them over a dwarf, granted it is a small benefit, but there is some reason. When one race can get everything and others can't, it destroys variety. Rogues would either be dwarf or human (for khanjari).

Also, in regards to the "maxstat gear is rare" argument that would surely follow, it's not that rare, and is continually getting less rare as new areas are made.

- Mike
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:03 am

actually, there's every reason to play gnome/elf. They're gods in tanking etc vs. a mere dwarf. Just watch a 1600 hp dwarf drop vs. 1100 hp elf tanking same stuff. I'll ask a question with a question. What's the point of max_dex if it doesn't yield what the higher notches are? None. Another thing that was odd was it seems damned near impossible to notch halfling dex, yet elf/gnome need less to notch. I saw that 113 dex for elf is 9 innate hitroll, which is just one notch under halfling. Halfling with the same eq didn't notch at all :( You'd think the relative higher the dex, the MORE enhanced benefits you'd get. Just like how ogres benefit from max_str like mad as far as weight carried.

"Dwarf Stats: Dwarves are stronger and hardier than humans, and
somewhat more dexterous, but tend to be less intelligent
and agile."

*Dwarves start out, if perfect dex, 6 hitroll. Same as human. So this tidbit is irrelevant if max_dex isn't to enhance % to gain innate attacks.

Dwarves notch to halfling agility with 2 effreeti rings. Should that not be the case as well?

That's why I was pushing for having melee class of mage and cleric. If someone chooses to wear that type equipment, they forfeit having extra hitpoints, etc. It's a choice to use an item. While filling a slot with max_dex, you forego using hitpoint gear. Having a melee mage is fun but damn when you get hit..OUCH you get half killed on one hit cuz to get good hit/dam as mage, there's no hp eq so a hit will half kill you .. or worse.

I don't like cookie cutter type classes. Clerics are all in a rut. You get your ass yelled at for trying anything but heal really :/..etc.
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Postby Yarash » Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:18 pm

I'm talking about rogues here man. A dwarf rogue can drag heavier corpses and has higher natural damage. For an increasingly smaller penalty, you'd get extra attacks. Why would anyone then play a rogue halfling, rogue gnome, or rogue elf?

- Mike
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:18 pm

cuz halflings can hamstring. that in itself can stop a caster if tank is busy or failed bash. They're 4 innate notches so roughly 17% chance innate to get extra attack according to some of the tests that have been done. Elves can drag w/enough max_str. Halflings can't drag in the first place really..gnomes are a tad better. Dwarves are so big and fat..ugly etc they're bash magnets. Where halflings and gnomes are rather bash resist, dwarves aren't. Pro's and cons for each race *shrug*

(but it is kinda funny, if this is seen as an improvement to dwarves - I don't play them, I'm just pushing for the function of what increasing dexterity is all about) =D
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Postby Vena » Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:20 pm

The obvious hardcoded limits on whether or not you can achieve DEX attacks or warrior hps (according to sservis barbs and dwarves have the same con but barbs get more hps) based on race are a very questionable long term decision. It seemingly defeats the whole point of having a stat scale in one point (dex) and highlights a deficiency with the scale on another (con).

-------

The big problem facing max stat in my opinion is "notches". The notches are quite frankly too big creating massive "sweet" spots. If you can wear enough eq to make a 24pt notch great, if you can only muster 23 pts then every eq calcr point invested in those 23 pts is WORTHLESS until something hits the market that suddenly makes the most unwanted pieces of eq highly sought after.

If every point of max stat produced a tangible benefit (albeit very small) then max stat becomes valuable on its own merits rather than the combination of other eq in the game that enable you to reach a "notch".

---------

I think I would also advocate eliminating one of the two +stat modifiers... either +max_stat or +stat and compensating by adjusting the factor based on whether the stat is above or below 100.

So if you keep +max_stat and the factor for under 100 is 5x and you have a piece of +6 max stat eq...

with 80 nat con you would have 102 con (80 + 4*5 to get to 100, then +2 max is left).

with 100 nat con you would have 106 con.

or....

implement some sort of an alternative advancement system so old chars can get to the same perfect stats that new roller chars have and STILL eliminate one of the +stat types.

The reason why is to eliminate the waste of eq points in situations where you have an item that is say +9 strength but your at 100, or +4 max strength when you have 91 (assume +9 stat = +4 max stat)
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Postby Grumdikanikus » Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:49 pm

Somewhat on topic, I always thought it would be nice if +Max Stat items brought you up to the max score for that attribute and then the + over 100.

Example. My drow necro let's say has a Con of 54 naturally. If I had an item that was +1Max_Con. That would raise me up to 101 instead of having to wear 46 points of +Con items to get to 100 before that +1 of MaxCon was worth a darn to me.

MaxStat items should be rare in my opinion and mean something. Then the incremental bonuses of how many points over 100 could mean more with the more Max Stat gear you have.

Then you could implement , using MAXCON gear, each plus could be = to +N% bonus to Ress survival and +.25 hps/per level of wearer. The percentage could change to make it balanced.

I Mean at .25 hp/level. A level 50 could get a bonus of 12.5 hps per + of max_con gear.

This probably isn't feasible for Uber players but for lowbies and casual players it would make it better. Then again I could be crazy.

Let The Flames Begin......

Grummy
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Postby Pril » Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:12 pm

Grumdikanikus wrote:Somewhat on topic, I always thought it would be nice if +Max Stat items brought you up to the max score for that attribute and then the + over 100.

Example. My drow necro let's say has a Con of 54 naturally. If I had an item that was +1Max_Con. That would raise me up to 101 instead of having to wear 46 points of +Con items to get to 100 before that +1 of MaxCon was worth a darn to me.

MaxStat items should be rare in my opinion and mean something. Then the incremental bonuses of how many points over 100 could mean more with the more Max Stat gear you have.

Then you could implement , using MAXCON gear, each plus could be = to +N% bonus to Ress survival and +.25 hps/per level of wearer. The percentage could change to make it balanced.

I Mean at .25 hp/level. A level 50 could get a bonus of 12.5 hps per + of max_con gear.

This probably isn't feasible for Uber players but for lowbies and casual players it would make it better. Then again I could be crazy.

Let The Flames Begin......

Grummy


To put stuff in perspective for higher end gameplay a lvl 50 warrior could get 312 hps from max con gear. (that's using spob or kerns plate, kostie cloak, amy belt, and 2 render cloaks for 25 max con. didn't bother checking if there was more.)

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Postby Grumdikanikus » Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:27 pm

I haven't played a warrior types since troll bezerkers, and I wasn't that good then either.

With all that Plus Con Gear how much hp bonus do you get normally? And how much other +hp gear to warriors wear.

I am coming from a caster point of view and one that has never made it to level 50. I know I would love to not have to carry 40+ points of con gear to get me up to even think about seriously getting a ress when my necro dies.


Grummy


[/quote]
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Postby Pril » Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:35 pm

Grumdikanikus wrote:I haven't played a warrior types since troll bezerkers, and I wasn't that good then either.

With all that Plus Con Gear how much hp bonus do you get normally? And how much other +hp gear to warriors wear.

I am coming from a caster point of view and one that has never made it to level 50. I know I would love to not have to carry 40+ points of con gear to get me up to even think about seriously getting a ress when my necro dies.


Grummy




Well the most high end warriors have around 750ish hps naked at lvl 50. They get about 50 hps from +max con eq which puts them at 800 and then they wear around 300 or so more hps eq wise putting them at around 1100 or so. (someone correct me if i'm wrong).

With yer con system it would put them at around 1370ish hps w/o vit or fembo.

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Postby Grumdikanikus » Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:48 pm

You could tweak the percentage. Something like that though would let the high level players have a little more umph and give lowbie characters who don't use rollers to create characters a chance to redeem their crappy rolls without having too get tons of +stat gear to compensate.

This will probably throw things tooo out of balance.


On a side note, Does MaX_Int gear give extra spells slots the more points you have or does it just reduce mem times?

Grummy
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Postby Pril » Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:58 pm

Grumdikanikus wrote:You could tweak the percentage. Something like that though would let the high level players have a little more umph and give lowbie characters who don't use rollers to create characters a chance to redeem their crappy rolls without having too get tons of +stat gear to compensate.

This will probably throw things tooo out of balance.


On a side note, Does MaX_Int gear give extra spells slots the more points you have or does it just reduce mem times?

Grummy


Just reduces mem times.
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Postby daggaz » Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:24 pm

Well, I like how in the area creation docs, it says this about the max_stat flag.

Warning: Use of this flag is extremely limited and should only be given to an object which is extremely difficult to acquire and then only after consulting with a greater areas god. Failure to heed this warning will result in the areas gods RIPPING YOUR LUNGS OUT!!!

(more or less). and this warning is repeated at least once or twice more.


SO..... what ever happened with that system? This stuff really should be extremely rare. Instead, its all over all kinds of objects, on things that are NOT that hard to get (many items can be soloed by a skilled player), and often on multiple items in a zone.

I like max stat, think its really fun and nifty, but it should be the exception, not the rule.
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Postby Yasden » Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:02 am

Blame the new roller for making normal +stat eq obsolete. Unless you're a "pre new roller" character, chances are you don't need ANY sort of +stat gear. Which sucks for those of us who have been around through the years and can't fix our stats to wear what we want to.

However, that would be the reason why there is such an abundance of it. The trick is to scaling the benefits a little better so that getting a LOT of any particular max_stat is what really pays off, not having +15 and being "capped" for any sort of benefits.

The same would apply to MR if there were more MR eq available in the game.
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:54 am

I was testing the autoroller again. It definitely isn't tossing out stats like it did. For a little while you could get 2 perfects before adding bonuses even. Now it's pretty stingy, but if you are patient it still has good ones.
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Postby Sarell » Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:48 am

I rolled as snake warrior recently, it's stats obliterate any pre roller character. I spent literally months rolling Ladak, my idea was I'd muck around as Sarell while I got Ladak set up properly, my new roller stats from about 2 hours make him look like a wuss. I still totally think there should be a period whjere you can choose to reroll old characters on the new roller, even better I think everyone should reroll on a much harsher roller, you can choose to reroll for 2 months or so, after that you can't log in until you have rerolled them.

Back on track, maxstat for memtimes, having particular notches is really odd. I think an equation needs to be worked out that doesn't focus so much on notches, as just takes into account the stat, for example for a druid...

(Character Wis) X (Human Modifier) X (Spell Circle) X (.01 seconds)

So a tenth circle spell at 100 human in would be 10 seconds. At any other number it would change. We can already see memtimes are not in whole numbers so there may be scope for a system like this? I do still think at the moment having character lose so many hitpoints in order to achieve beterr mem times is kind of cool, with a more linear system as described, there would be even more scope to choose the balance of mem/skills VS HP/AC/Saves when customising your character.

This system could be applied to hitpoints aswell, would be interesting to have gradual gains in maxcon hitpoints on warriors rather than the BIG step. Again opening the doors for more variation.

If I was directing such a large overhaul as this, I would probably want to implement it at the same time as sorting out +stat VS +max_stat gear. I'd personally abolish maxstat and make stats open ended, in conjuction with rerolling at lower / harsher caps.
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Postby selerial » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:56 pm

For what it's worth, I think notches are due to the fact that this mud does not use an original code base but is based on old Diku (or whatever) code.

Diku used a 1-25 based stat system, where say humans were all maxxed at 18, elves had con at 15 but agi at 21, etc... what happened was that basically the scale was sort of quadrupled, which is why a lot of items are +4 int or whatever, that really means +1 int under the real scale that the underpinnings of the mud use (sort of!).

The trick is that 100 str doesn't really mean 25 str, it means 100% of the racial max cap, whatever that was. That's why some notches seem to be really small, but others are huge, because the stats you see when you type att are really converted stats from a 25 point scale, and it might take 4 agi to notch an elf's agi, but it takes 6 for a human (just random numbers).

At least... that's my understanding of it, I could be wrong, but from however many years ago that's what I heard it was and so that's how I understand it.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:16 pm

Yasden wrote:Blame the new roller for making normal +stat eq obsolete. Unless you're a "pre new roller" character, chances are you don't need ANY sort of +stat gear. Which sucks for those of us who have been around through the years and can't fix our stats to wear what we want to.

However, that would be the reason why there is such an abundance of it. The trick is to scaling the benefits a little better so that getting a LOT of any particular max_stat is what really pays off, not having +15 and being "capped" for any sort of benefits.

The same would apply to MR if there were more MR eq available in the game.


look at weylarii's stats then start blaming.
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Postby Vena » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:16 am

ogre 780ish
troll 730ish
barb 690ish

barb can be 1100 hps with great ac/saves/prots with great eq before tiamat eq hit the mud. 1000-1050 would be fairly easy. previt of course.

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Postby kiryan » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:10 pm

with an auto roller and a good connection you can roll 13-14k chars per hour (4 every seconds, the same amount of commands / second you can enter when playing the mud).

i rolled a lot of chars, a lot of different classes and have had frequent discussions with others who roll a lot of characters.

you can generally achieve 3 perfect 1 heroic within 100,000 rolls.

you can generally achieve 4 perfect at closer to 2.8 million rolls.

Some people are smart and get lucky with bonuses, some are unlucky and make poor choices when applying bonuses. It seems to be easier to do this on melee classes and harder on non melee classes and worst on hybrids. I blame this on hybrids really need to roll 5 or 6 stats (even if your only after 3 or 4) vs 4 or 5 for casters vs 3 or 4 for melee.

Personally, I shoot for 3 perfect and a high heroic after 8-24 hours of rolling and play that...
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Postby Demuladon » Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:39 am

Blame the new roller for making normal +stat eq obsolete. Unless you're a "pre new roller" character, chances are you don't need ANY sort of +stat gear. Which sucks for those of us who have been around through the years and can't fix our stats to wear what we want to.


Gods should add 50 luck to all pre-roller chars to balance things :)

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